Austin, my point is Trump is in the position he is, with all those indictments on the basis of his own people testifying against him. The Dems aren't giving evidence. The Deep State isn't giving evidence. His own people alone are giving all the evidence and they weren't all compelled. You can't compel people who won't honor subpoenas. The GOP committee on the Biden impeachment may have the fun of dealing with the same issue. My guess is they won't have a platoon of Biden's staff coming in before them to freely offer evidence to impeach him.
Here's the thing about being compelled to give evidence, and this shoudl bother you. The government is extremely powerful. No single person can stand up to the threats the government can level, most especially the federal government. There are people from J6 who are admitting to interference with a government procedure, along with months and years of prison, because they government is forcing them. Own up to this one count or we are coming after you on six. Your two years may become 20. This is one of the reason I no longer trust our judicial system. I think it is corrupt. I hvae a lot of sympathy now for black radicals back in the 60s and Muslims prosecuted during the horrific global war on terror. This is where left and right ought to come together.
Yes, the DOJ doesn't screw around and they have all the power. Michael Cohen has made this point endlessly, and as much as I find Cohen almost as big a narcissist as Trump, he's been dead on about this. I have a slightly different take as to why both right and left might come together on this aspect of the DOJ. J6'rs also got convicted with a ton of video evidence just like Chauvin did in the Floyd incident. Video may turn out to be one tool that takes some of the power away from the justice system and puts it in the hands of juries. Maybe. I remember back when Hoover was head of the FBI and I thought it was pretty much a rogue operation terrorizing even our presidents and seemingly accountable to no one, and I remember the Church committee hearings of the seventies that exposed the CIA's MKULTRA program. I was a big believer in the deep state back then. Now I'm a little more sanguine but could easily revert if Congress doesn't start taking their oversight responsibilities more seriously.
I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored. For instance, there is a radical black group in St. Louis that is under federal indictment for supposedly working for the Russians. Where once I might have applauded, now I have a lot of sympathy for them and their plight. My trust is shot.
Be interested in seeing how that one plays out. Russians were hitting black groups with tons of disinformation to work up racial unrest. This is another one where I will wait for the jury to chime in.
People are going to jail for merely walking into the Capitol building, not damaging anything, and walking out. They got them on tape, certainly. But you are fine with that?
I presume you were/are in favor of releasing all the tapes?
I'm Ok with it for misdemeanor trespass. Lots of BLM folks got similar charges. The big sentences were handed down after juries found them guilty of the charges.
most of the j6 cases are not going to juries because they are being pled out...accept this single charge and two years or we hit you with 6 charges and 20 years.
Misdemeanors rarely went to juries, and no, nothing I've read indicates misdemeanor charges were handled as you describe. People forget, the thousands of people wandering through the Capital were never charged with anything and no one was arrested the day of. The 1/6 martyr thing is nauseating. People died in this event including a police officer, one was essentially trampled to death by rioters. I was stunned watching this unfold on TV in my office. I wanted to puke when the guy carried the Confederate Flag in the rotunda. I wanted to puke when I saw so many people carrying crosses and asking Jesus to bless the event. I literally couldn't believe they erected a hanging platform knowing it was for Pence. I have no sympathy for 1/6 insurrectionists and truly do think the Judicial system has been fair as it could be given the chaos. As to releasing all the videoo, that's a laugher. Whose going to sit home and watch thousands and thousands of hours of video. Carlson had all the video and all he showed was five minutes we had seen previously. This is a GOP pipe dream.
They are not going to juries because they are being threatened with multple charges and they are pleading out. The only people who died on that day were Trump supporters. There was no police officer trampled to death. I think you are thinking of Sitnick. This is not how he died.
Please give me some links that cite how many insurrectionists have been pleading out because they are threatened with unprovable multiple charges.
Roseanne Boylan was the rioter I had in mind with being trampled to death. Sicknick died from strokes and is considered to have died in the line of duty. There was another insurrectionist who died of a heart attack. Two policeman who committed suicide, and of course Ashley Babbitt. There is no question from the video she was moving her way through a broken glass window in a door to get on to the Speaker's Lobby. She was armed with a knife. She was warned. She was shot. Trump supporters in the Capital that day should count their lucky stars more policeman did not use their guns as they would have been justified in doing. All I thought about when watching this live was this could turn into a bloodbath. The fact it didn't is a miracle.
Herre is something from Wiki with footnotes about pleadings. Note that those who went to trail tended overwhelmingly to be convicted of all charges, hence most people plead out.
"As of October 13, 2021, more than 100 defendantsтАФof the over 630 individuals charged thus farтАФhad entered guilty pleas.[35] By the end of July 2023, 629 defendants had pleaded guilty, and 129 others went to trial. Of those that went to trial, 87 defendants were convicted of all charges, 40 defendants received mixed verdicts (convicted of at least one charge, and acquitted or a hung jury on at least one charge), and two were acquitted of all charges.[36] Hundreds were still awaiting trial or sentencing.[37]"
I am not sure what point you are making. the committee was nothing but Nevers. Who do you think they were going to compel?
Austin, my point is Trump is in the position he is, with all those indictments on the basis of his own people testifying against him. The Dems aren't giving evidence. The Deep State isn't giving evidence. His own people alone are giving all the evidence and they weren't all compelled. You can't compel people who won't honor subpoenas. The GOP committee on the Biden impeachment may have the fun of dealing with the same issue. My guess is they won't have a platoon of Biden's staff coming in before them to freely offer evidence to impeach him.
Here's the thing about being compelled to give evidence, and this shoudl bother you. The government is extremely powerful. No single person can stand up to the threats the government can level, most especially the federal government. There are people from J6 who are admitting to interference with a government procedure, along with months and years of prison, because they government is forcing them. Own up to this one count or we are coming after you on six. Your two years may become 20. This is one of the reason I no longer trust our judicial system. I think it is corrupt. I hvae a lot of sympathy now for black radicals back in the 60s and Muslims prosecuted during the horrific global war on terror. This is where left and right ought to come together.
Yes, the DOJ doesn't screw around and they have all the power. Michael Cohen has made this point endlessly, and as much as I find Cohen almost as big a narcissist as Trump, he's been dead on about this. I have a slightly different take as to why both right and left might come together on this aspect of the DOJ. J6'rs also got convicted with a ton of video evidence just like Chauvin did in the Floyd incident. Video may turn out to be one tool that takes some of the power away from the justice system and puts it in the hands of juries. Maybe. I remember back when Hoover was head of the FBI and I thought it was pretty much a rogue operation terrorizing even our presidents and seemingly accountable to no one, and I remember the Church committee hearings of the seventies that exposed the CIA's MKULTRA program. I was a big believer in the deep state back then. Now I'm a little more sanguine but could easily revert if Congress doesn't start taking their oversight responsibilities more seriously.
I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored. For instance, there is a radical black group in St. Louis that is under federal indictment for supposedly working for the Russians. Where once I might have applauded, now I have a lot of sympathy for them and their plight. My trust is shot.
Be interested in seeing how that one plays out. Russians were hitting black groups with tons of disinformation to work up racial unrest. This is another one where I will wait for the jury to chime in.
But they are going after the black group, not the Russian.
Correction..they indicted the Russian but he is in Moscow.
People are going to jail for merely walking into the Capitol building, not damaging anything, and walking out. They got them on tape, certainly. But you are fine with that?
I presume you were/are in favor of releasing all the tapes?
I'm Ok with it for misdemeanor trespass. Lots of BLM folks got similar charges. The big sentences were handed down after juries found them guilty of the charges.
most of the j6 cases are not going to juries because they are being pled out...accept this single charge and two years or we hit you with 6 charges and 20 years.
Misdemeanors rarely went to juries, and no, nothing I've read indicates misdemeanor charges were handled as you describe. People forget, the thousands of people wandering through the Capital were never charged with anything and no one was arrested the day of. The 1/6 martyr thing is nauseating. People died in this event including a police officer, one was essentially trampled to death by rioters. I was stunned watching this unfold on TV in my office. I wanted to puke when the guy carried the Confederate Flag in the rotunda. I wanted to puke when I saw so many people carrying crosses and asking Jesus to bless the event. I literally couldn't believe they erected a hanging platform knowing it was for Pence. I have no sympathy for 1/6 insurrectionists and truly do think the Judicial system has been fair as it could be given the chaos. As to releasing all the videoo, that's a laugher. Whose going to sit home and watch thousands and thousands of hours of video. Carlson had all the video and all he showed was five minutes we had seen previously. This is a GOP pipe dream.
Obstructing an official proceedings is a felony.
Very few have been charged with that. Remember Austen there were thousands in the Capital. Not hundreds.
They are not going to juries because they are being threatened with multple charges and they are pleading out. The only people who died on that day were Trump supporters. There was no police officer trampled to death. I think you are thinking of Sitnick. This is not how he died.
Please give me some links that cite how many insurrectionists have been pleading out because they are threatened with unprovable multiple charges.
Roseanne Boylan was the rioter I had in mind with being trampled to death. Sicknick died from strokes and is considered to have died in the line of duty. There was another insurrectionist who died of a heart attack. Two policeman who committed suicide, and of course Ashley Babbitt. There is no question from the video she was moving her way through a broken glass window in a door to get on to the Speaker's Lobby. She was armed with a knife. She was warned. She was shot. Trump supporters in the Capital that day should count their lucky stars more policeman did not use their guns as they would have been justified in doing. All I thought about when watching this live was this could turn into a bloodbath. The fact it didn't is a miracle.
Like I said, all deaths were of Trump supporters.
Herre is something from Wiki with footnotes about pleadings. Note that those who went to trail tended overwhelmingly to be convicted of all charges, hence most people plead out.
"As of October 13, 2021, more than 100 defendantsтАФof the over 630 individuals charged thus farтАФhad entered guilty pleas.[35] By the end of July 2023, 629 defendants had pleaded guilty, and 129 others went to trial. Of those that went to trial, 87 defendants were convicted of all charges, 40 defendants received mixed verdicts (convicted of at least one charge, and acquitted or a hung jury on at least one charge), and two were acquitted of all charges.[36] Hundreds were still awaiting trial or sentencing.[37]"