“No one…as in no one…wants Trump to win. And if this means voting for Anybody But Trump, we’re there for it”.
To all my Bulwark friends- I think we can agree that the current Republican Party represents an ongoing threat to our democracy. I don’t know if the party is salvageable but I do know that as long as the GOP keeps winning election…
“No one…as in no one…wants Trump to win. And if this means voting for Anybody But Trump, we’re there for it”.
To all my Bulwark friends- I think we can agree that the current Republican Party represents an ongoing threat to our democracy. I don’t know if the party is salvageable but I do know that as long as the GOP keeps winning elections, they have no…as in zero…motivation to change. So, how about this…you stop voting for republicans, any and all republicans, until they loose enough elections and are brought to their senses. If the GOP goes back to being a normal party, then vote for all the republicans you want. Until then, you need to vote for dems or independents. A hard pill to swallow, but a necessary one.
I understood the comment to be in the context of a Republican primary. By definition, you can only vote for Republicans in the primary. I think most of the Bulwark contributors and readers understand the need for the current GOP to go down in flames at every opportunity.
I really don't think Republicans have anything that normal voters want. They would have lost in '16 if not for Trump and voters are now tired of Trump in enough numbers to overcome those still for Trump. After Trump comes what? More culture wars? I think Republicans have exhausted all culture war topics. The Republican voters get old and die without replacement, while the young are voting Democratic. I am just not seeing a plausible way for Republicans to matter in the future.
The Right seems to be quite adept at manufacturing culture war issues. I mean, the whole trans set of issues is something affecting (according to the data) less than 1% of the population.... but it is a HUGE thing.
Plus, despite Dobbs, they are still grinding away at that issue and using it as a potential wedge to get into further removing other rights.
Culture is essentially all they have, because it is all that a huge chunk of their base cares about (because they see the culture as a reason for the victimization and for their economic issues).
I don't know about being totally banned (as in a movie theater could not show it), but you couldn't show it in a school or certain other places. I would be wondering why you WOULD show it at a school TBH.
Culture and anti Semiticism and racism. The usual fascist trifecta. Hitler loved German mothers and encouraged them to have many German babies. We all know his feelings for the non Germans.
The irony is the base only cares about culture. They either don’t believe economic or financial items can be improved for them (free markets did kinda screw the lower middle class, since we had no guardrails) or they are convinced hurting the right people will fix their woes (I bet on the latter). It’s all very misguided, given the GOP elites crowing about “the elite” etc.
Conservatives have significant judicial power. Liberals have significant cultural power. Current MAGA base can’t seem to understand that push and pull balance.
Well the Repubs have never cared about economic issues other than lowering taxes for the wealthy and cutting all regulations. Their base realized this and thus enabled Dump to gain their support.
Unfortunately, because of the bullshit asymmetry principle (aka Brandolini’s Law), Repuglicans won’t ever exhaust all culture war topics. Sometimes, after some indefinite interval, they reuse and recycle (but never reduce them).
To a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. To a party whose biggest hammer is resentment, every ‘issue’ is a grievance. Even the bullshit ‘issues’. ESPECIALLY the bullshit ones.
Trans is just Anita Bryant for the modern age, and since they lost with homosexuals -- their original target -- they've been forced to take on trans people. What's after trans? I think they're in a corner on sexuality.
Abortion is a failure for the right. They've been forced politically to accept limited access instead of no abortion at all. Yes, you have a few extremists doing extreme things, but the extremism is a symptom of their demise. A majority will not go along with the extremism.
Republicans got an advantage on some culture issues because they pushed the envelope and did the unexpected. Now they are getting pushback. The Trump era culture wins were temporary. People didn't believe they would really go that far. Now the electorate knows they will. They no longer have the advantage of surprise, and they are not smart enough to do anything but the most obvious. Non-cis and abortion were obvious. School is obvious. Where do they go after that? Nowhere that enough voters will follow. Republicans aren't bogeymen but less bright people.
Oh, I’m pretty sure they will find some other culture war topic to create and be outraged about. There is too much money to grift in the right-wing media.
I read in Jim Swift’s overtime that Ted Cruz wants to force carmakers to bring back AM radios. Who would’ve thought that could be a culture war subject.
Reparations for enslavement, for jim crow, for redlining, for the drug wars, for shabby public schools, for extra-judicial killings. There's plenty of meat on those culture bones, and it won't be simple. Where do you stand?
Actions in our past caused a segment of society to do more poorly than they would have otherwise. Reparations are an attempt to even the score, though they can't remove the societal problems caused by those actions, that we still encounter. While reparations might juice the Republican base, is it enough to create a viable political party? It could give the entrenched red areas some more time, but the majority are not with the Republicans on their culture issues. Without Trump, I don't see it being enough.
A lot of the various culture war issues aren't "winning" issues (and are, in fact, probably losing issues, if they get in power and try to implement them) but they are issues that can be tacked on and that will generate turnout in places. Granted, these places are often reliably red to begin with, but the various culture war issues, while not central in a general election, will shape GoP primary outcomes... and keep some red places from turning purple or blue.
Although it is surprising what things can get legs (as you say). I would have never seen drag queens as an issue, given the history of the form and some of the big names that did it in the past... but here we are.
Drag queens had the audacity to invade the children's section of the library, and instead of simply not taking their kids to the readings, Republican parents saw another opportunity where they could tell everyone else what to do.
Republican areas are becoming known for two things: corruption leading to dismissals, and incompetence. Culture war issues do not produce good governance. They are merely a distraction. I think we are going to see erosion in red areas. We've passed peak red.
Undoubtedly, but poor people with limited to no resources make poor decisions, or just accept the state of things. We see it play out in historically impoverished areas all the time. The same concept applies here (see WV). The deep irony of it is given the cultural slant of most of those places you won’t see Dems or independents being voted in. There will simply be less and less attention paid to local and state government unless things REALLY go off the rails (we’re talking no running water for months level of incompetent). Those red areas are already eroded. The question is will people leave or push for change? I bet no for a very long time (happy to be wrong!). Theyll likely stay stagnant and the state govts continue insanity trend because voter apathy is quite high and tribalism is an addictive drug. I do think there’s a case for independents and more moderate Dems to actually try. You’d be surprised what a “sensible governance with no drama” message will do when things are bad, but it’s gonna take ages to get past the “R is on the ballot so I’ll check this box” mentality.
My money (if I were a betting person) would be on pagans: Wiccans, Druids, etc. It would be pretty easy pickings, because many of these people aren't in organized groups that support their members, let alone have any political support. There's still enough of that "Satanic Panic" fear in the air, plus the obvious anti-Christian rhetoric that's possible.
One example: single parents who help each other to raise their kids? It's becoming a thing in some places. Sounds like 'a buncha commies' to me. /s
I agree with J Fricks. The possibilities are endless. They have only scratched the surface on contraceptives because, you know, 'all children are God's children'. Even the ones who haven't been conceived.
The idea I've observed making its way around the lower levels of right-wing media most recently is doing away with no fault divorce. I am not kidding. Look-out for this being taken up on Fox, and in state legislatures soon. Never underestimate the misogyny of these people.
I didn't say anything about winning. I was responding to the comment "I think Republicans have exhausted all culture war topics." My comment was probably misplaced and poorly formed. So much shade to throw, so little time.
No, you didn't say anything about winning and I was pointing out that winning is the only thing that matters. Any crank can have an opinion. It's only when enough people agree with the crank that problems crop up. So while I agree that Republicans are unlimited when it comes to thinking up crazy things, they don't matter unless they get legs.
I never would've believed this many voters cared about drag queens. Not in a million years would I have guessed this outcome. I don't know what to think any more. It looks like no-fault divorce is the next topic. That one may resonate as men's rights groups have been complaining for years that divorce courts discriminate against them.
I'd guess 90% of the commentariat is already there. Another 3% are going to hold onto voting for the candidate not the party (and that'll be functionally the same).
I would add, be sure to get active, even in the bluest states, for your Democratic candidates for *legislature*. The maga offensive has shifted to the states. That's where abortion rights are being decided. If you can donate even a few dollars to the Democratic candidate, it will greatly be appreciated. Grassroots fundraising is really tough. Door knockers and phone bankers also welcome with open arms!
Because these people hate Democracy. If Trump is elected, it will be the last real election in the once United States. He'll never leave and he will suspend elections for Congress. Too many countries said, " it couldn't happen here." Until it did.
I don’t do lawn signs, buttons, or bumper stickers. I see some very vulgar ones with extremely antisocial messaging. People have always been a bit crazy upstate, but the hostility is more palpable. It’s probably not going to resolve in my lifetime.
“No one…as in no one…wants Trump to win. And if this means voting for Anybody But Trump, we’re there for it”.
To all my Bulwark friends- I think we can agree that the current Republican Party represents an ongoing threat to our democracy. I don’t know if the party is salvageable but I do know that as long as the GOP keeps winning elections, they have no…as in zero…motivation to change. So, how about this…you stop voting for republicans, any and all republicans, until they loose enough elections and are brought to their senses. If the GOP goes back to being a normal party, then vote for all the republicans you want. Until then, you need to vote for dems or independents. A hard pill to swallow, but a necessary one.
Most (all?) of them already do and have said so publicly many times.
I am 75 years old. I have never voted for a Republican in my life and never will. I never miss an opportunity to vote.
I understood the comment to be in the context of a Republican primary. By definition, you can only vote for Republicans in the primary. I think most of the Bulwark contributors and readers understand the need for the current GOP to go down in flames at every opportunity.
I really don't think Republicans have anything that normal voters want. They would have lost in '16 if not for Trump and voters are now tired of Trump in enough numbers to overcome those still for Trump. After Trump comes what? More culture wars? I think Republicans have exhausted all culture war topics. The Republican voters get old and die without replacement, while the young are voting Democratic. I am just not seeing a plausible way for Republicans to matter in the future.
The Right seems to be quite adept at manufacturing culture war issues. I mean, the whole trans set of issues is something affecting (according to the data) less than 1% of the population.... but it is a HUGE thing.
Plus, despite Dobbs, they are still grinding away at that issue and using it as a potential wedge to get into further removing other rights.
Culture is essentially all they have, because it is all that a huge chunk of their base cares about (because they see the culture as a reason for the victimization and for their economic issues).
Would Rocky Horror be banned if it came out today? 🤗
I don't know about being totally banned (as in a movie theater could not show it), but you couldn't show it in a school or certain other places. I would be wondering why you WOULD show it at a school TBH.
Culture and anti Semiticism and racism. The usual fascist trifecta. Hitler loved German mothers and encouraged them to have many German babies. We all know his feelings for the non Germans.
The irony is the base only cares about culture. They either don’t believe economic or financial items can be improved for them (free markets did kinda screw the lower middle class, since we had no guardrails) or they are convinced hurting the right people will fix their woes (I bet on the latter). It’s all very misguided, given the GOP elites crowing about “the elite” etc.
Conservatives have significant judicial power. Liberals have significant cultural power. Current MAGA base can’t seem to understand that push and pull balance.
Well the Repubs have never cared about economic issues other than lowering taxes for the wealthy and cutting all regulations. Their base realized this and thus enabled Dump to gain their support.
Unfortunately, because of the bullshit asymmetry principle (aka Brandolini’s Law), Repuglicans won’t ever exhaust all culture war topics. Sometimes, after some indefinite interval, they reuse and recycle (but never reduce them).
To a man whose only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. To a party whose biggest hammer is resentment, every ‘issue’ is a grievance. Even the bullshit ‘issues’. ESPECIALLY the bullshit ones.
Trans is just Anita Bryant for the modern age, and since they lost with homosexuals -- their original target -- they've been forced to take on trans people. What's after trans? I think they're in a corner on sexuality.
Abortion is a failure for the right. They've been forced politically to accept limited access instead of no abortion at all. Yes, you have a few extremists doing extreme things, but the extremism is a symptom of their demise. A majority will not go along with the extremism.
Republicans got an advantage on some culture issues because they pushed the envelope and did the unexpected. Now they are getting pushback. The Trump era culture wins were temporary. People didn't believe they would really go that far. Now the electorate knows they will. They no longer have the advantage of surprise, and they are not smart enough to do anything but the most obvious. Non-cis and abortion were obvious. School is obvious. Where do they go after that? Nowhere that enough voters will follow. Republicans aren't bogeymen but less bright people.
Oh, I’m pretty sure they will find some other culture war topic to create and be outraged about. There is too much money to grift in the right-wing media.
It doesn’t have to be true to take hold in a mark (MAGA head).
I read in Jim Swift’s overtime that Ted Cruz wants to force carmakers to bring back AM radios. Who would’ve thought that could be a culture war subject.
What do you suggest?
Reparations for enslavement, for jim crow, for redlining, for the drug wars, for shabby public schools, for extra-judicial killings. There's plenty of meat on those culture bones, and it won't be simple. Where do you stand?
Actions in our past caused a segment of society to do more poorly than they would have otherwise. Reparations are an attempt to even the score, though they can't remove the societal problems caused by those actions, that we still encounter. While reparations might juice the Republican base, is it enough to create a viable political party? It could give the entrenched red areas some more time, but the majority are not with the Republicans on their culture issues. Without Trump, I don't see it being enough.
A lot of the various culture war issues aren't "winning" issues (and are, in fact, probably losing issues, if they get in power and try to implement them) but they are issues that can be tacked on and that will generate turnout in places. Granted, these places are often reliably red to begin with, but the various culture war issues, while not central in a general election, will shape GoP primary outcomes... and keep some red places from turning purple or blue.
Although it is surprising what things can get legs (as you say). I would have never seen drag queens as an issue, given the history of the form and some of the big names that did it in the past... but here we are.
Drag queens had the audacity to invade the children's section of the library, and instead of simply not taking their kids to the readings, Republican parents saw another opportunity where they could tell everyone else what to do.
Republican areas are becoming known for two things: corruption leading to dismissals, and incompetence. Culture war issues do not produce good governance. They are merely a distraction. I think we are going to see erosion in red areas. We've passed peak red.
Undoubtedly, but poor people with limited to no resources make poor decisions, or just accept the state of things. We see it play out in historically impoverished areas all the time. The same concept applies here (see WV). The deep irony of it is given the cultural slant of most of those places you won’t see Dems or independents being voted in. There will simply be less and less attention paid to local and state government unless things REALLY go off the rails (we’re talking no running water for months level of incompetent). Those red areas are already eroded. The question is will people leave or push for change? I bet no for a very long time (happy to be wrong!). Theyll likely stay stagnant and the state govts continue insanity trend because voter apathy is quite high and tribalism is an addictive drug. I do think there’s a case for independents and more moderate Dems to actually try. You’d be surprised what a “sensible governance with no drama” message will do when things are bad, but it’s gonna take ages to get past the “R is on the ballot so I’ll check this box” mentality.
My money (if I were a betting person) would be on pagans: Wiccans, Druids, etc. It would be pretty easy pickings, because many of these people aren't in organized groups that support their members, let alone have any political support. There's still enough of that "Satanic Panic" fear in the air, plus the obvious anti-Christian rhetoric that's possible.
That one has already been run around the block, though I don't doubt Republicans could revive it if they run out of anything else.
One example: single parents who help each other to raise their kids? It's becoming a thing in some places. Sounds like 'a buncha commies' to me. /s
I agree with J Fricks. The possibilities are endless. They have only scratched the surface on contraceptives because, you know, 'all children are God's children'. Even the ones who haven't been conceived.
The idea I've observed making its way around the lower levels of right-wing media most recently is doing away with no fault divorce. I am not kidding. Look-out for this being taken up on Fox, and in state legislatures soon. Never underestimate the misogyny of these people.
I heard there was a movement among some religious Republucans to outlaw birth control.
You heard correct.
Do you really think R's will get enough voters to care about single people helping each other out or anti-contraception to win? I dont.
Oh yeah...God said children must be raised in a family with a male head and a female dishwasher...I'm sure that's written down somewhere.
I didn't say anything about winning. I was responding to the comment "I think Republicans have exhausted all culture war topics." My comment was probably misplaced and poorly formed. So much shade to throw, so little time.
No, you didn't say anything about winning and I was pointing out that winning is the only thing that matters. Any crank can have an opinion. It's only when enough people agree with the crank that problems crop up. So while I agree that Republicans are unlimited when it comes to thinking up crazy things, they don't matter unless they get legs.
God help us if they win.
I never would've believed this many voters cared about drag queens. Not in a million years would I have guessed this outcome. I don't know what to think any more. It looks like no-fault divorce is the next topic. That one may resonate as men's rights groups have been complaining for years that divorce courts discriminate against them.
That's a good possibility. But is it politically viable?
Homunculi have a soul!
I'd guess 90% of the commentariat is already there. Another 3% are going to hold onto voting for the candidate not the party (and that'll be functionally the same).
I like your word and proud to be a fellow commentariat!
I would add, be sure to get active, even in the bluest states, for your Democratic candidates for *legislature*. The maga offensive has shifted to the states. That's where abortion rights are being decided. If you can donate even a few dollars to the Democratic candidate, it will greatly be appreciated. Grassroots fundraising is really tough. Door knockers and phone bankers also welcome with open arms!
Hmm, I used to live in Upstate NY (Southern Tier) and I was open about my political affiliations. Never had a problem with anyone.
Now, I will grant that I left the area in 2016, but have things changed that much?
Because these people hate Democracy. If Trump is elected, it will be the last real election in the once United States. He'll never leave and he will suspend elections for Congress. Too many countries said, " it couldn't happen here." Until it did.
I don’t do lawn signs, buttons, or bumper stickers. I see some very vulgar ones with extremely antisocial messaging. People have always been a bit crazy upstate, but the hostility is more palpable. It’s probably not going to resolve in my lifetime.
I still mask and some people are bothered by it. Others smile.