I think Jasmine nails the public/private school conundrum. I appreciate JVL's perspective, but I think socioeconomic circumstances have the biggest impact on public/private school dynamics.
My family are filled with public school teachers as well. Socioeconomic circumstances have the biggest impact on how well kids do in school - not just academically but behaviorally, athletically, and all other ways. The more the quote 'good parents' put their kids in private schools, the more we are tearing the social fabric of our society. Kids get raised in a different reality, different curriculum, exposure to others who are not like them. Private schools are contributing to the societal bubbles we live in. I totally agree with Jasmine.
This is just not true universally. There is a whole world of private schools that are not fancy and which are insanely diverse, both in economic and demographic terms.
In NJ the parochial schools are often more diverse that public schools in wealthy towns.
We sent our son to Catholic school thru 5th grade. The Catholic school he went to was all very wealthy. I was one of the few working class mothers. I also felt like I was shunned in very subtle ways. And he noticed it. He went to public school in 6th grade because he joined the gifted program. And by the way, he hated the Catholic school and loved the public school. Our situation was the demographic opposite of JVLs.
We did parochial for two of our kids, one for nine years. Not all of the kids at the school were Catholic and it gave us opportunities to discuss religion at the dinner table, both what we liked and what we didn't. There is a solid moral foundation too. Not for everyone, but the tuition was a fraction of private schools as JVL observed. When our friend's son was getting bullied for his lunch money at the local public school it felt like a reasonable choice.
An interesting thing I noticed that wasn’t as bad as low income children when in a private high school was the phenomenon of high income wild students with rich uninvolved parents. The classic kids that host house party while the parents are out. It’s a different mild high school disruptiveness style.
I have always seen public education as the great opportunity equalizer. Look at the states where vouchers have decimated public schools, by design. I applied for an out-of-district permit to go to an academically strong + diverse public high school in Los Angeles, precisely so I could avoid the BMW parking lot at my local public and best private options. Like Jasmine, my public school education prepared me well for eastern elite higher ed, and honestly life in general.
I was a Montessori trainer (for teachers) for a couple of decades and I deeply appreciate the love. That said, something as basic as repetition of Schoolhouse Rock made a difference to a generation of kids. I don't know how, these days, where one isn't trapped in front of a TV every Saturday morning to see the cartoons, you could get a similar effect. It's a shame though because I can still sing multiple songs from that series and I am staring down 60.
Being a good citizen is not necessarily correlated with being a good person. I would take people who suck but understand how laws work and how many branches of government exist at this point. I have been deeply questioning my "everyone participate no matter what you know" attitude that I never questioned before. Why not ask voters to pass the citizenship test every 16 years or something? Yes, it's harsh, but these Rights come with Responsibilities and I am done with everything being pegged to the lowest common denominator in this particular portion of life. We've become an international menace because we can't control ourselves. Time for some harsh self medicine.
I loved both of your answers to the civics education question. It's a topic near and dear to my heart because I volunteer teaching (really, discussing) government boot camp on Saturdays. I'm about to start a six-week session with a local immigrant aid group tomorrow.
& I think this is so much a both/and question, and Jasmine and JVL are both latching on to two essential but also very different aspects of it. Yes, you've got to teach your kids to read, and explore the world, and care about other people; and JVL is right (as is his wont) that once they get even into K-5 school you're getting to the end of that window where you can set them on the right path. In a lot of ways my family was a little poor growing up -- local non-famous journalists don't make a lot of money, unfortunately -- but one of the best things my parents ever did was get me reading, and slightly later getting me my very own shiny library card. You can't have good liberal-society citizens if you don't first have good people, as odd as that is given liberalism at some level was designed to be values-neutral. But that's a longer discussion so I'll not go too far down that road.
On the other hand, though, people just don't have practical subject knowledge of what government can actually do, and in particular what minority-power parties can do. Or on the flip-side, they don't really see the options they CAN take, and what effective, legal but bold pushback actually looks like. They need to understand what judicial review is, what its *purpose* is, and what a good answer to its current abuses are. Or they need to understand what Congress can do and what they can't do, how the filibuster complicates things, what it means to overcome a presidential veto, all that. That's not to say the old way is the best way and shouldn't be changed; but you can't change something well if you don't understand how and why it was always done that way. And without that baseline, they don't realize their power, and they also don't recognize progress when it happens (or when it doesn't). The consequence is you get a lot of frustrated idealism because what seems obviously wrong can't just be rushed away.
And populism preys on that anger and disillusionment in the worst ways. I don't know that a little knowledge would change everything, but the ignorance is definitely leaving us all worse off. As I said, Both/and; or perhaps in the millennial meme language, from The Emperor's New Groove: Both are good.
Exactly what I came to say. JVL was talking about ensuring that you raise good people and Jasmine was talking about the need for students to learn about how the government works. These are both good and necessary things.
This was a great Triad mailbag. I really appreciate the responses from JVL and Jasmine about raising children to be good citizens. I have an 18 month old and essentially from the time she turned 8 months old my wife and I incorporated nightly reading to her before bed. She now willingly picks her own books for us to read to her at night. It's quite a special thing to see her enjoy us reading to her and hopefully she retains this characteristic as she grows.
Reading is so important. I read to my son from the day I brought him home from ghe hospital. Ge is in his early 20's now and is still a reader. More importantly, he is curious and seeks out information in whatever interests him. He thinks about things.
The huge driving factor for me putting my kid in a private Montessori school was the local public schools system's insistence on giving every kid a laptop. Nope. The other thing is that when I made the decision, I was effectively a single mom in a new city and I was trying to "build a village" so to speak from scratch. So when I found a school that aligned really well with my values that was actively trying to build a school community, but also teaching kids to be part of a broader community (huge emphasis on environmentalism and service and inclusivity and a global education) I just knew "this is where I need to be, this is where my kid needs to be".
There are other ways to make sure he gets exposure to the "real world". Last summer he came home from his YMCA summer camp and asked "mom, what exactly is the difference between prison and jail?" I didn't know the difference when I was six years old, and I was a public kid school at that point!
Exactly. Imagine if Tim Walz/Jacob Frey hadn’t stood up in MN. I don’t see how governing a more purple state means it’s ok NOT to prioritize protesters’ civil rights.
You're calling Sherrill a fascist? Really? I think what she was trying to was get crowd control away from the ICE goons so that things could calm down. A worthy goal. Unfortunately, it backfired. If she had been Governor for longer, I think she would have rethought that position, because she would have seen how the State Police run from an insider's perspective. Ras Baraka has a good idea about putting clergy and community workers in the crowds to keep people calm and focused, but we'll see if it works out.
I’m not calling Sherrill fascist but seriously misled as you point out but the end result of police beating up peaceful protesters is a fascist act. She certainly didn’t intend that but when state police have their backs to ICE they are protecting ICE.
We are an American family living in Lisbon, Portugal. We started our kids in public school but our son, at age 12, was not picking up the language. He’s now at The British School of Lisbon. We never would have spent this kind of money on high school in the U.S. but it’s what works here. He is getting a superior education with an international student body and making friends from all over the world.
I love these conversations. No agenda, no competition — just two smart people with different perspectives and experiences talking about stuff.
I really appreciate what JVL says about reading to children. My mother was barely 17 when she married my dad and she never went to college, but she taught my brothers and me to love books, and she read to us often when we were little. I'm so grateful for that. I think early exposure to reading nurtures an ability to focus and think critically — skills some people never develop. There's a reason Republicans around the country are trying to defund support for Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. They don't want to encourage little thinkers.
I built a little free library for the clinic I work at. I ask the kids if they read at home and if they say no, I tell them they can take books home with them. We also stock the box with flyers for the Imagination Library (though kids age out at 5 or so I think).
That's wonderful. Some of those kids are always going to remember getting to take a book home. Even with all the screens and distractions, so many little ones still love books.
JVL, what do you think of these funds being set up in red states to give public school money to parents whose kids are in private school? Both Texas, where I live now, and Iowa, where I lived until recently, have these. In both states, private schools are allowed to choose their students - they do not have to take special ed students or students with behavioral issues. Texas, where the fund is new, seems to be handling it a bit better because there are income requirements. In Iowa, there is no income requirements, meaning people who had no problems economically can still get the money. The program in Iowa has cost much much more than originally planned.
I really disagree on JVL's VA take. The state legislature's makeup reflects this state too and it has had multiple significant bills shot down by Spanberger's veto. There's blame on both sides of this power struggle, but it's getting uglier and it's going to be real problem for her future political prospects.
(I do agree that Sherill doesn't have many good options against a federal ICE takeover, though).
I agree with you. She vetoed a bill strengthening unions. That was some very basic blue dog democrat stuff at a time when democrats are trying to appeal to working class voters and union power has been eroded beyond recognition. I don’t know what her plan was, but it looks like flailing in a way that corporations approve of to me.
The marijuana bill as an example too. Who is happy with that? The state legislature has had a bill ready to go for 5 years, why couldn't it get over the finish line?
Really enjoy Jasmine in these episodes! Nice to get a young person's perspective.
I think Jasmine nails the public/private school conundrum. I appreciate JVL's perspective, but I think socioeconomic circumstances have the biggest impact on public/private school dynamics.
My family are filled with public school teachers as well. Socioeconomic circumstances have the biggest impact on how well kids do in school - not just academically but behaviorally, athletically, and all other ways. The more the quote 'good parents' put their kids in private schools, the more we are tearing the social fabric of our society. Kids get raised in a different reality, different curriculum, exposure to others who are not like them. Private schools are contributing to the societal bubbles we live in. I totally agree with Jasmine.
This is just not true universally. There is a whole world of private schools that are not fancy and which are insanely diverse, both in economic and demographic terms.
In NJ the parochial schools are often more diverse that public schools in wealthy towns.
We sent our son to Catholic school thru 5th grade. The Catholic school he went to was all very wealthy. I was one of the few working class mothers. I also felt like I was shunned in very subtle ways. And he noticed it. He went to public school in 6th grade because he joined the gifted program. And by the way, he hated the Catholic school and loved the public school. Our situation was the demographic opposite of JVLs.
Sure if you want your kid indoctrinated religiously. No thanks.
We did parochial for two of our kids, one for nine years. Not all of the kids at the school were Catholic and it gave us opportunities to discuss religion at the dinner table, both what we liked and what we didn't. There is a solid moral foundation too. Not for everyone, but the tuition was a fraction of private schools as JVL observed. When our friend's son was getting bullied for his lunch money at the local public school it felt like a reasonable choice.
Correct! It's not for everyone!
An interesting thing I noticed that wasn’t as bad as low income children when in a private high school was the phenomenon of high income wild students with rich uninvolved parents. The classic kids that host house party while the parents are out. It’s a different mild high school disruptiveness style.
I have always seen public education as the great opportunity equalizer. Look at the states where vouchers have decimated public schools, by design. I applied for an out-of-district permit to go to an academically strong + diverse public high school in Los Angeles, precisely so I could avoid the BMW parking lot at my local public and best private options. Like Jasmine, my public school education prepared me well for eastern elite higher ed, and honestly life in general.
I was a Montessori trainer (for teachers) for a couple of decades and I deeply appreciate the love. That said, something as basic as repetition of Schoolhouse Rock made a difference to a generation of kids. I don't know how, these days, where one isn't trapped in front of a TV every Saturday morning to see the cartoons, you could get a similar effect. It's a shame though because I can still sing multiple songs from that series and I am staring down 60.
Being a good citizen is not necessarily correlated with being a good person. I would take people who suck but understand how laws work and how many branches of government exist at this point. I have been deeply questioning my "everyone participate no matter what you know" attitude that I never questioned before. Why not ask voters to pass the citizenship test every 16 years or something? Yes, it's harsh, but these Rights come with Responsibilities and I am done with everything being pegged to the lowest common denominator in this particular portion of life. We've become an international menace because we can't control ourselves. Time for some harsh self medicine.
Make passing the citizenship test a precursor to receiving a high school diploma or GED.
It was "before my time" but there was a civics teacher at my high school who made the final exam of the semester the citizenship test.
I loved both of your answers to the civics education question. It's a topic near and dear to my heart because I volunteer teaching (really, discussing) government boot camp on Saturdays. I'm about to start a six-week session with a local immigrant aid group tomorrow.
& I think this is so much a both/and question, and Jasmine and JVL are both latching on to two essential but also very different aspects of it. Yes, you've got to teach your kids to read, and explore the world, and care about other people; and JVL is right (as is his wont) that once they get even into K-5 school you're getting to the end of that window where you can set them on the right path. In a lot of ways my family was a little poor growing up -- local non-famous journalists don't make a lot of money, unfortunately -- but one of the best things my parents ever did was get me reading, and slightly later getting me my very own shiny library card. You can't have good liberal-society citizens if you don't first have good people, as odd as that is given liberalism at some level was designed to be values-neutral. But that's a longer discussion so I'll not go too far down that road.
On the other hand, though, people just don't have practical subject knowledge of what government can actually do, and in particular what minority-power parties can do. Or on the flip-side, they don't really see the options they CAN take, and what effective, legal but bold pushback actually looks like. They need to understand what judicial review is, what its *purpose* is, and what a good answer to its current abuses are. Or they need to understand what Congress can do and what they can't do, how the filibuster complicates things, what it means to overcome a presidential veto, all that. That's not to say the old way is the best way and shouldn't be changed; but you can't change something well if you don't understand how and why it was always done that way. And without that baseline, they don't realize their power, and they also don't recognize progress when it happens (or when it doesn't). The consequence is you get a lot of frustrated idealism because what seems obviously wrong can't just be rushed away.
And populism preys on that anger and disillusionment in the worst ways. I don't know that a little knowledge would change everything, but the ignorance is definitely leaving us all worse off. As I said, Both/and; or perhaps in the millennial meme language, from The Emperor's New Groove: Both are good.
Exactly what I came to say. JVL was talking about ensuring that you raise good people and Jasmine was talking about the need for students to learn about how the government works. These are both good and necessary things.
JVL, congratulations on your Webby, but did I miss your shoutout to us, the voting academy?
This was a great Triad mailbag. I really appreciate the responses from JVL and Jasmine about raising children to be good citizens. I have an 18 month old and essentially from the time she turned 8 months old my wife and I incorporated nightly reading to her before bed. She now willingly picks her own books for us to read to her at night. It's quite a special thing to see her enjoy us reading to her and hopefully she retains this characteristic as she grows.
Reading is so important. I read to my son from the day I brought him home from ghe hospital. Ge is in his early 20's now and is still a reader. More importantly, he is curious and seeks out information in whatever interests him. He thinks about things.
The huge driving factor for me putting my kid in a private Montessori school was the local public schools system's insistence on giving every kid a laptop. Nope. The other thing is that when I made the decision, I was effectively a single mom in a new city and I was trying to "build a village" so to speak from scratch. So when I found a school that aligned really well with my values that was actively trying to build a school community, but also teaching kids to be part of a broader community (huge emphasis on environmentalism and service and inclusivity and a global education) I just knew "this is where I need to be, this is where my kid needs to be".
There are other ways to make sure he gets exposure to the "real world". Last summer he came home from his YMCA summer camp and asked "mom, what exactly is the difference between prison and jail?" I didn't know the difference when I was six years old, and I was a public kid school at that point!
Police are abusing protesters while ICE abuses detainees. Until the police are helping protesters, and arresting ICE then Sherrill is the problem.
Exactly. Imagine if Tim Walz/Jacob Frey hadn’t stood up in MN. I don’t see how governing a more purple state means it’s ok NOT to prioritize protesters’ civil rights.
Sherrill is letting loose Police to beat up peaceful protesters that’s not ‘center left’ that’s fascist.
You're calling Sherrill a fascist? Really? I think what she was trying to was get crowd control away from the ICE goons so that things could calm down. A worthy goal. Unfortunately, it backfired. If she had been Governor for longer, I think she would have rethought that position, because she would have seen how the State Police run from an insider's perspective. Ras Baraka has a good idea about putting clergy and community workers in the crowds to keep people calm and focused, but we'll see if it works out.
I’m not calling Sherrill fascist but seriously misled as you point out but the end result of police beating up peaceful protesters is a fascist act. She certainly didn’t intend that but when state police have their backs to ICE they are protecting ICE.
True. A major rookie error on her part.
As to the future of the Bulwark after Trump— fear not— in the concentration camp we eill have a samizdst Bulwark
We are an American family living in Lisbon, Portugal. We started our kids in public school but our son, at age 12, was not picking up the language. He’s now at The British School of Lisbon. We never would have spent this kind of money on high school in the U.S. but it’s what works here. He is getting a superior education with an international student body and making friends from all over the world.
Life long South Jersey resident! Love the Haddonfield burn 😂
Haha, I was thinking "Tavistock"! 🤣🤣
That’s the place!
I’m a voting member of the academy. Congratulations!
I love these conversations. No agenda, no competition — just two smart people with different perspectives and experiences talking about stuff.
I really appreciate what JVL says about reading to children. My mother was barely 17 when she married my dad and she never went to college, but she taught my brothers and me to love books, and she read to us often when we were little. I'm so grateful for that. I think early exposure to reading nurtures an ability to focus and think critically — skills some people never develop. There's a reason Republicans around the country are trying to defund support for Dolly Parton's Imagination Library. They don't want to encourage little thinkers.
I built a little free library for the clinic I work at. I ask the kids if they read at home and if they say no, I tell them they can take books home with them. We also stock the box with flyers for the Imagination Library (though kids age out at 5 or so I think).
That's wonderful. Some of those kids are always going to remember getting to take a book home. Even with all the screens and distractions, so many little ones still love books.
JVL, what do you think of these funds being set up in red states to give public school money to parents whose kids are in private school? Both Texas, where I live now, and Iowa, where I lived until recently, have these. In both states, private schools are allowed to choose their students - they do not have to take special ed students or students with behavioral issues. Texas, where the fund is new, seems to be handling it a bit better because there are income requirements. In Iowa, there is no income requirements, meaning people who had no problems economically can still get the money. The program in Iowa has cost much much more than originally planned.
I really disagree on JVL's VA take. The state legislature's makeup reflects this state too and it has had multiple significant bills shot down by Spanberger's veto. There's blame on both sides of this power struggle, but it's getting uglier and it's going to be real problem for her future political prospects.
(I do agree that Sherill doesn't have many good options against a federal ICE takeover, though).
I agree with you. She vetoed a bill strengthening unions. That was some very basic blue dog democrat stuff at a time when democrats are trying to appeal to working class voters and union power has been eroded beyond recognition. I don’t know what her plan was, but it looks like flailing in a way that corporations approve of to me.
The marijuana bill as an example too. Who is happy with that? The state legislature has had a bill ready to go for 5 years, why couldn't it get over the finish line?
She could maybe discipline publicly police assaulting protesters and hopefully fire them.