"Without him, we might not have this committee. Without him, we might not even have this republic."
I don't disagree with anything said about VP Pence. His unwillingness to break the law and do his proscribed part in the attempted coup did save us from the alternative.
However, I abhor the fact that we have reached a point where we feel…
"Without him, we might not have this committee. Without him, we might not even have this republic."
I don't disagree with anything said about VP Pence. His unwillingness to break the law and do his proscribed part in the attempted coup did save us from the alternative.
However, I abhor the fact that we have reached a point where we feel a need to applaud his (and others) actions in upholding their oaths to the Constitution and the Rule of Law. I want to go back to the days when we could (and should be able to) take that for granted in our elected officials. I know that is another shattered norm, but damn do I miss it!
Remember - this so called hero had to consult with Dan Quayle (potatoe!) to see if there was any wiggle room in him overturning the election. Quayle said no dice.
Yes, Dan Quayle is the one that saved our country! (who woulda thunk it?) I still give Pence credit, as bad as he is, that he chose to listen to Quayle and do the right thing.
True, Pence didn't call Quayle to ask if he couldn't do it. He was asking if there was any way he COULD do it. If Pence thought he had any lane to do what Trump wanted he would have without thinking twice about it.
Pence is no hero anymore than the bag clerk at your local grocery is an hero for not putting canned goods on top of your eggs.
I concur. This thread started by MoosesMom captures everything relevant to JVL's embarrassingly misguided paean to a milquetoast fool. He did his duty. No fawning required.
In a way it is an adjacent conversation to how we view Liz Cheney.
There are a lot of Republican policies I haven't agreed with for some time now. Some things I abhor, even. Yet I admire character wherever it appears. And I appreciate those rare Real Republicans, conservative to the core, who have a line even they cannot cross. Like not running into felonious behavior. Like reading and supporting the US Constitution. Low bars, for sure. But better than nothing!
Definitely. We should give credit to and even applaud what Pence did. In the hope that other Republicans might find the ability to stand up and do the right thing, as opposed to merely slinking off or retiring as so many have done.
He might have gotten away with it. Eastman laid it all out. It was irrelevant whether or not he had actual authority. Even if he didn't, who actually enforces the law when it comes to this kind of thing? He would have caused chaos and the Trump cult within Congress would have been energized. This would have been a major constitutional crisis and it's not clear who would have won.
The heroic thing to do would be to run, not walk, to the J6 Committee and testify truthfully and thoroughly. So far we haven’t seen that and until then, Mr. Milquetest remains detestable as an accomplice.
I agree. But within the context of the Republican party, and particularly the back rooms of Trumpist autocracy, it is so rare now to see someone act on principle and with clear-eyed respect for the Constitution, that Pence’s decision stands out as an act of courage. It seems to me that it is an act of courage precisely because we cannot any longer take it for granted that Republican officials will uphold their oaths to the Constitution and the Rule of Law. That a few, such as Pence, do is a dim light of hope but a light nevertheless
SO, if you had a choice of Pence or Romney or Liz for prez, say, how would you vote? Yes I know it's a silly question. But these 3 represent 3 bits of the GOP remnant.
That's a hard choice. Definitely not Pence. I respect Liz for what she is doing on the committee. She's the ballsiest of the bunch, but too conservative for me. Romney is your typical country club Republican, the most centrist of the three. If these were the only choices and you held a gun to my head I'd pick Mitt.
Reasoned choice and I wouldn't fear a coup but he's too oily now. I'd have voted for him 20 years ago. I think I'd hold my nose and vote for courage of her convictions and know the constitution would be safe. But I'd think hard on mitt v. an AOC. Pence loses on every front with me. If we ever get to choose again, I'll go for honor even over competence. Who can we trust to maintain norms. It is a hard choice. I do think we must not vote our heart but our head.
No fair! I call shenanigans. You said it was a choice between Mike, Mitt, and Liz. You can't be throwing AOC into the mix.
I'd stick with Mitt over Liz because she's too conservative for my taste. She's smart and would likely be more effective than Mitt in pushing her agenda. Plus she's too much like her dad, and I effing hated him. It blew my mind that he shot some guy in the face and that guy apologized to Dick for the trouble he (the gunshot victim) caused him and his family. Wow. That's a real demonstration of influence and power.
Re: Mitt vs. AOC... That's a hard one, as you said. I liked some of the Green New Deal, but she has been a real disappointment. The problem with these people in safe seats is that they forget the fact that, if you want to change things, there is a whole other world there that you have to convince.
Re: heart vs. head... Without a doubt. We need candidates that are smart, pragmatic, and strategic.
Lol. Granted. I do not care for the cheneys! I do like your reasoning re Mitt. Agree about candidates. Dems are so often a disappointment. Power corrupts. So easily. And Dems don't groom young candidates to take over. Maybe the world just needs a reset. Sadly I don't think we'll like what we get.
It doesn't matter what would have been technically allowed. Who enforces the rules? With what army? Have we not learned that proud rule-breaking is something for which we have not been prepared? There is no enforcement mechanism. He would have caused chaos and the energized Trumpians in Congress, and you can bet there are all kinds of maneuvers to stall things. There might have been true violence in the streets.
This was all fairly pointless. Our whole culture is consumed with tempers flaring and ad hominem attacks. I think you got an impression of my mindset that is not quite accurate. In any case I've deleted all my comments up to this point.
"Without him, we might not have this committee. Without him, we might not even have this republic."
I don't disagree with anything said about VP Pence. His unwillingness to break the law and do his proscribed part in the attempted coup did save us from the alternative.
However, I abhor the fact that we have reached a point where we feel a need to applaud his (and others) actions in upholding their oaths to the Constitution and the Rule of Law. I want to go back to the days when we could (and should be able to) take that for granted in our elected officials. I know that is another shattered norm, but damn do I miss it!
Remember - this so called hero had to consult with Dan Quayle (potatoe!) to see if there was any wiggle room in him overturning the election. Quayle said no dice.
Maybe we're not giving enough credit to Quayle?
Yes, Dan Quayle is the one that saved our country! (who woulda thunk it?) I still give Pence credit, as bad as he is, that he chose to listen to Quayle and do the right thing.
True, Pence didn't call Quayle to ask if he couldn't do it. He was asking if there was any way he COULD do it. If Pence thought he had any lane to do what Trump wanted he would have without thinking twice about it.
Pence is no hero anymore than the bag clerk at your local grocery is an hero for not putting canned goods on top of your eggs.
This scenario of celebrating Pence for performing his oath of office, reminds me of the self esteem movement. A trophy for showing up!
I concur. This thread started by MoosesMom captures everything relevant to JVL's embarrassingly misguided paean to a milquetoast fool. He did his duty. No fawning required.
In a way it is an adjacent conversation to how we view Liz Cheney.
There are a lot of Republican policies I haven't agreed with for some time now. Some things I abhor, even. Yet I admire character wherever it appears. And I appreciate those rare Real Republicans, conservative to the core, who have a line even they cannot cross. Like not running into felonious behavior. Like reading and supporting the US Constitution. Low bars, for sure. But better than nothing!
Definitely. We should give credit to and even applaud what Pence did. In the hope that other Republicans might find the ability to stand up and do the right thing, as opposed to merely slinking off or retiring as so many have done.
He might have gotten away with it. Eastman laid it all out. It was irrelevant whether or not he had actual authority. Even if he didn't, who actually enforces the law when it comes to this kind of thing? He would have caused chaos and the Trump cult within Congress would have been energized. This would have been a major constitutional crisis and it's not clear who would have won.
I admire your optimism. I hope to share it when I see an actual conviction and prison time.
The heroic thing to do would be to run, not walk, to the J6 Committee and testify truthfully and thoroughly. So far we haven’t seen that and until then, Mr. Milquetest remains detestable as an accomplice.
good point (The Bolton Syndrome: take the money and run; damn the Constitution)
in 3...2...1... Pence will commence his tell-all book selling tour. /s
Scary thought: what are we taking for granted even now, that we'll later miss?
I agree. But within the context of the Republican party, and particularly the back rooms of Trumpist autocracy, it is so rare now to see someone act on principle and with clear-eyed respect for the Constitution, that Pence’s decision stands out as an act of courage. It seems to me that it is an act of courage precisely because we cannot any longer take it for granted that Republican officials will uphold their oaths to the Constitution and the Rule of Law. That a few, such as Pence, do is a dim light of hope but a light nevertheless
SO, if you had a choice of Pence or Romney or Liz for prez, say, how would you vote? Yes I know it's a silly question. But these 3 represent 3 bits of the GOP remnant.
That's a hard choice. Definitely not Pence. I respect Liz for what she is doing on the committee. She's the ballsiest of the bunch, but too conservative for me. Romney is your typical country club Republican, the most centrist of the three. If these were the only choices and you held a gun to my head I'd pick Mitt.
Reasoned choice and I wouldn't fear a coup but he's too oily now. I'd have voted for him 20 years ago. I think I'd hold my nose and vote for courage of her convictions and know the constitution would be safe. But I'd think hard on mitt v. an AOC. Pence loses on every front with me. If we ever get to choose again, I'll go for honor even over competence. Who can we trust to maintain norms. It is a hard choice. I do think we must not vote our heart but our head.
No fair! I call shenanigans. You said it was a choice between Mike, Mitt, and Liz. You can't be throwing AOC into the mix.
I'd stick with Mitt over Liz because she's too conservative for my taste. She's smart and would likely be more effective than Mitt in pushing her agenda. Plus she's too much like her dad, and I effing hated him. It blew my mind that he shot some guy in the face and that guy apologized to Dick for the trouble he (the gunshot victim) caused him and his family. Wow. That's a real demonstration of influence and power.
Re: Mitt vs. AOC... That's a hard one, as you said. I liked some of the Green New Deal, but she has been a real disappointment. The problem with these people in safe seats is that they forget the fact that, if you want to change things, there is a whole other world there that you have to convince.
Re: heart vs. head... Without a doubt. We need candidates that are smart, pragmatic, and strategic.
Lol. Granted. I do not care for the cheneys! I do like your reasoning re Mitt. Agree about candidates. Dems are so often a disappointment. Power corrupts. So easily. And Dems don't groom young candidates to take over. Maybe the world just needs a reset. Sadly I don't think we'll like what we get.
Well said. Appreciate your thinking. Me too... and me neither.
Cheering the minimum is the fast-lane to mediocrity
Participation trophy to go with his juice box and orange slices?
In this case, cheering the minimum is potentially saving democracy.
It doesn't matter what would have been technically allowed. Who enforces the rules? With what army? Have we not learned that proud rule-breaking is something for which we have not been prepared? There is no enforcement mechanism. He would have caused chaos and the energized Trumpians in Congress, and you can bet there are all kinds of maneuvers to stall things. There might have been true violence in the streets.
This was all fairly pointless. Our whole culture is consumed with tempers flaring and ad hominem attacks. I think you got an impression of my mindset that is not quite accurate. In any case I've deleted all my comments up to this point.