One thing that struck me from the Christie podcast is the way that folks on the right make these false comparisons like "Yes, DJT is bad but JOE BIDEN IS ALSO BAD!" I mean, Christie said during the course of the podcast that Biden is not up to the job, but also that he's moved so far left as to be an existential threat. Are either of the…
One thing that struck me from the Christie podcast is the way that folks on the right make these false comparisons like "Yes, DJT is bad but JOE BIDEN IS ALSO BAD!" I mean, Christie said during the course of the podcast that Biden is not up to the job, but also that he's moved so far left as to be an existential threat. Are either of these really true? No. But they will use them as justification to vote for DJT again.
Another section that got me fuming was when he talked about how divided we are but couldn't help himself from engaging in both-sides-ism. No, Governor, the left is not nearly as bad as the right on the tribalism issue. Not even close. It's why Al Franken isn't in government any more but George Santos is. The hypocrisy drives me bananas.
Back in 2016, I recall David Frum writing in The Atlantic that one can view one’s vote as:
1. an instrument for achieving (or maybe blocking) certain ideological or policy objectives;
2. a form of cathartic self-expression; or
3. participation in a collective decision.
Christie argued that he could never have voted for Clinton. He now says he can’t possibly vote for Biden. Republicans who, as Christie did, thought they were voting based on ideological or policy preferences when they voted for Trump in 2016 (and even more so in 2020) deluded themselves into a Faustian bargain to get their tax cuts and judges. Those who, like Christie, formally endorsed Trump, and many of those who chose to join the administration, thought they could shape or tame Trump into some kind of responsible instrument of conservative policy preferences. Whether one views Trump’s ascendancy as a ‘hostile takeover’ of the Republican Party or more of a ‘coalition of the willing,’ they turned a blind eye to any and all evidence of Trump’s unfitness for office, thus enabling his predations. Christie and others like him should be asked (paraphrasing Randolph Bourne’s Twilight of the Idols), if Trump was “too strong for you to prevent, how [was he] going to be weak enough for you to control and mould to your conservative purposes?”
Christie sounds as though he is still unwilling recognize that the strongest part of Trump’s base, the part that will never abandon him, consists of people who view voting for Trump as cathartic self-expression. He is the embodiment of cathartic self-expression, a flexible vehicle for all of their myriad grievances. Whatever your grievance, he promises retribution against whatever and whomever you detest. Moreover, any constraints that may have mitigated his worst instincts during his first term, however inadequately, will be utterly absent if he gets a second term.
Christie still refuses to admit that if, as seems likely, the choice in ‘24 is Trump vs. Biden, that and only that is the only “collective decision” that will be on offer. That being the case, anyone who claims their position is ‘won’t vote for Trump, but can’t vote for Biden’ must be asked relentlessly, Why not? If it is a choice between Trump and Biden, any other alternative makes a Trump victory more likely. That’s the argument against No Labels, and it applies equally to any alternative.
Christie is not a martyr running to defeat Trump. He is running to become an attack dog VP candidate.
If he was sincere, why did he give him an A as a president looking straight into the camera AFTER all the revelations by Tillerson, Bolton, Kelly and others? Those were Republicans with stellar conservative records telling that Trump was dangerous!
Christie is another sleazy politician aiming for his personal gains, let's not forget the Bridgegate. In my opinion, his utility ends as soon as (and if) Trump loses the primary. If Trump wins the primary, I can see Christie crawling back to kiss the king's boots (or other body parts).
Well said Mary - you beat me to the punch. I think the interview was a good one & Charlie did follow up in several areas. But the comment about Biden moving left and 'not up to the job' is rather insulting. The argument is partly about age, but "existential threat?" It's the same argument used against Hillary Clinton. I think folks need to take a page from Webster & look up the definition of "existential."
Hypocrisy, venality, mendaciousness, criminality is preferred, no, expected of MAGA's cheap pols. This is the way of the cult's revenge. The sticking of fingers in eyes of Dems. Of owning the Libs. And making the always welcome at the self pity party MAGA male more virile.
I came to this comments page specifically to see if I was the crazy one. Anyone, ANYONE who is STILL saying Trump was a better president for the country than Hillary Clinton would have been, is either stupid or lying. Anyone who tries to tell me that Biden is a far-left President isn’t paying attention. So Christie continues to de-impress me with this kind of rhetoric. He’s doing what he’s doing not to protect us from Trump and authoritarianism, but to try to raise his own star. It’s all just marketing and politics. And to say that he would simply opt out of voting for president if it’s Trump/Biden? Just simply opt out of his civic duty as a citizen? Any room I was giving him is gone.
Yes. Agree. I am especially frustrated with Christie saying he will opt out from voting for president. This is what he intends to teach his kids (not to mention communicate to the electorate as a self-professed Republican leader)? You have a choice between two options (the ONLY two options if you are thinking rationally), but you don't like your two choices, so magical thinking is okay and sitting on your ass is okay.
It's disappointing but not surprising. He's running as a Republican so he needs GOP votes, and the GOP voters will never accept a candidate that says anything good about Democrats.
I also was taken aback by this. I understand Biden is not on a Republican and is not on the Republican side, but classifying him as not up to the job - and like he's some far-left shill who's been passing a bunch of far-left legislation - is disingenuous. But - it's also not surprising. Christie and other Republicans will say whatever they need to to demonize any Democrat who holds the Presidency.
Of all the Presidents in my lifetime, other than Harry Truman, Biden has the most experience and “served” OUR country…. and he has been through serious grief and I really do believe he cares about “We the People”…. Have not noticed that Christie cares so much about “we the people”. Whoever wins IS the President of ALL of us, ALL of us!
There is a segment of Republicans, many of the Trump base, for whom allegations that Hillary Clinton and Dems were raping, killing and cannibalizing children--first in the basement of the Comet, then elsewhere, per Q-- are real as a heart attack. Who would vote for such people?
Addendum to your comment: Hillary & the Dems were accused of raping, killing & cannibalizing children in the basement of a pizza place that turned out NOT TO EVEN HAVE A BASEMENT!
That's how insane that particular conspiracy theory was.
I actually agree with this. I hold them all responsible. It is like they think American democracy is some kind of perpetual motion machine that does not require care and oiling and attention keep running. They just keep throwing muck in the gears to keep their people in power and Make America White Again, or Republican Again, or some such drivel.
Agree, mostly. Not wanting to absolve the enablers but "not policing" is different from believing what the devotees believe. More odious, actually. They should not sit by during the zombie apocalypse waiting for the zombies to come to their senses.
You expect a lot. Push back is push back. (for that matter, McCain said that the swiftboating of John kerry was "bullshit.") Also, John McCain was the one who put a stake through the heart of Putin's expectation that Trump would lift sanctions via EO: The "Countering Russian (Foreign?) Aggression Act of 2017," passed by a veto-proof majority, took away trump's ability to do that.
Thanks for saying this for me. I was so frustrated when I heard his disparagements. No side is perfect but we haven’t accused them of being blood sucking pedophiles.
Well said. I don’t think Christie understands the Bulwark audience. We’re not as gullible as Republican voters. The fact that he still isn’t being honest was obvious. I am all for welcoming anyone into the Never Trump fold, even if they were with Trump until very recently, but Christie’s dishonesty about some of these basic facts tells me he’s not really Never Trump. He’s still lying to us (and maybe himself) to justify keeping one toe in the Maybe Trump camp.
I don't think Christie cares who the Bulwark audience is, he's concerned about how it will play in the land of sometimes-Trumpers. If he's gonna go after Trump, he needs to toe the rest of the Republican line. I notice Charlie did not ask him what was so horrible about Hillary that he would blind himself to Trumps obvious flaws, ignorance, unsuitability, pettiness and malice.
I think you're right. I wanted to call BS and several things he said, e.g. what Mary mentioned above. Christie's not stupid, so why would he say such things? He wasn't trying to win us over, he was trying to play to the GOP base (I don't how he thinks he's going to attack TFG head-on *and* win over the base though -- not sure that's going to work).
Charlie, I also agree with Ben here; it would have been nice had you pressed him on what was/is so awful about Hillary. That needed some follow-up.
I think he was hoping to maybe peel off some Never Trumpers who also are Never Hillary, but I don’t think he understands just how vociferously anti-Trump we are.
One thing that struck me from the Christie podcast is the way that folks on the right make these false comparisons like "Yes, DJT is bad but JOE BIDEN IS ALSO BAD!" I mean, Christie said during the course of the podcast that Biden is not up to the job, but also that he's moved so far left as to be an existential threat. Are either of these really true? No. But they will use them as justification to vote for DJT again.
Another section that got me fuming was when he talked about how divided we are but couldn't help himself from engaging in both-sides-ism. No, Governor, the left is not nearly as bad as the right on the tribalism issue. Not even close. It's why Al Franken isn't in government any more but George Santos is. The hypocrisy drives me bananas.
This really bothered me also. Christie is a vile partisan but if he can bloody Trump - great.
Back in 2016, I recall David Frum writing in The Atlantic that one can view one’s vote as:
1. an instrument for achieving (or maybe blocking) certain ideological or policy objectives;
2. a form of cathartic self-expression; or
3. participation in a collective decision.
Christie argued that he could never have voted for Clinton. He now says he can’t possibly vote for Biden. Republicans who, as Christie did, thought they were voting based on ideological or policy preferences when they voted for Trump in 2016 (and even more so in 2020) deluded themselves into a Faustian bargain to get their tax cuts and judges. Those who, like Christie, formally endorsed Trump, and many of those who chose to join the administration, thought they could shape or tame Trump into some kind of responsible instrument of conservative policy preferences. Whether one views Trump’s ascendancy as a ‘hostile takeover’ of the Republican Party or more of a ‘coalition of the willing,’ they turned a blind eye to any and all evidence of Trump’s unfitness for office, thus enabling his predations. Christie and others like him should be asked (paraphrasing Randolph Bourne’s Twilight of the Idols), if Trump was “too strong for you to prevent, how [was he] going to be weak enough for you to control and mould to your conservative purposes?”
Christie sounds as though he is still unwilling recognize that the strongest part of Trump’s base, the part that will never abandon him, consists of people who view voting for Trump as cathartic self-expression. He is the embodiment of cathartic self-expression, a flexible vehicle for all of their myriad grievances. Whatever your grievance, he promises retribution against whatever and whomever you detest. Moreover, any constraints that may have mitigated his worst instincts during his first term, however inadequately, will be utterly absent if he gets a second term.
Christie still refuses to admit that if, as seems likely, the choice in ‘24 is Trump vs. Biden, that and only that is the only “collective decision” that will be on offer. That being the case, anyone who claims their position is ‘won’t vote for Trump, but can’t vote for Biden’ must be asked relentlessly, Why not? If it is a choice between Trump and Biden, any other alternative makes a Trump victory more likely. That’s the argument against No Labels, and it applies equally to any alternative.
Excellent.
Christie is not a martyr running to defeat Trump. He is running to become an attack dog VP candidate.
If he was sincere, why did he give him an A as a president looking straight into the camera AFTER all the revelations by Tillerson, Bolton, Kelly and others? Those were Republicans with stellar conservative records telling that Trump was dangerous!
Christie is another sleazy politician aiming for his personal gains, let's not forget the Bridgegate. In my opinion, his utility ends as soon as (and if) Trump loses the primary. If Trump wins the primary, I can see Christie crawling back to kiss the king's boots (or other body parts).
100% agree, well said!
Well said Mary - you beat me to the punch. I think the interview was a good one & Charlie did follow up in several areas. But the comment about Biden moving left and 'not up to the job' is rather insulting. The argument is partly about age, but "existential threat?" It's the same argument used against Hillary Clinton. I think folks need to take a page from Webster & look up the definition of "existential."
Hypocrisy, venality, mendaciousness, criminality is preferred, no, expected of MAGA's cheap pols. This is the way of the cult's revenge. The sticking of fingers in eyes of Dems. Of owning the Libs. And making the always welcome at the self pity party MAGA male more virile.
I came to this comments page specifically to see if I was the crazy one. Anyone, ANYONE who is STILL saying Trump was a better president for the country than Hillary Clinton would have been, is either stupid or lying. Anyone who tries to tell me that Biden is a far-left President isn’t paying attention. So Christie continues to de-impress me with this kind of rhetoric. He’s doing what he’s doing not to protect us from Trump and authoritarianism, but to try to raise his own star. It’s all just marketing and politics. And to say that he would simply opt out of voting for president if it’s Trump/Biden? Just simply opt out of his civic duty as a citizen? Any room I was giving him is gone.
Yes. Agree. I am especially frustrated with Christie saying he will opt out from voting for president. This is what he intends to teach his kids (not to mention communicate to the electorate as a self-professed Republican leader)? You have a choice between two options (the ONLY two options if you are thinking rationally), but you don't like your two choices, so magical thinking is okay and sitting on your ass is okay.
I had the same reaction. But then I remembered that Christie is running for president and he has to trash Biden any way possible.
It's disappointing but not surprising. He's running as a Republican so he needs GOP votes, and the GOP voters will never accept a candidate that says anything good about Democrats.
Exactly. McDaniel would probably bar him from the debate stage if he said anything nice about any Democrat.
It’s surprisingly fatiguing, doing battle with hypocrites who have disinvested in the truth.
I also was taken aback by this. I understand Biden is not on a Republican and is not on the Republican side, but classifying him as not up to the job - and like he's some far-left shill who's been passing a bunch of far-left legislation - is disingenuous. But - it's also not surprising. Christie and other Republicans will say whatever they need to to demonize any Democrat who holds the Presidency.
Of all the Presidents in my lifetime, other than Harry Truman, Biden has the most experience and “served” OUR country…. and he has been through serious grief and I really do believe he cares about “We the People”…. Have not noticed that Christie cares so much about “we the people”. Whoever wins IS the President of ALL of us, ALL of us!
There is a segment of Republicans, many of the Trump base, for whom allegations that Hillary Clinton and Dems were raping, killing and cannibalizing children--first in the basement of the Comet, then elsewhere, per Q-- are real as a heart attack. Who would vote for such people?
Addendum to your comment: Hillary & the Dems were accused of raping, killing & cannibalizing children in the basement of a pizza place that turned out NOT TO EVEN HAVE A BASEMENT!
That's how insane that particular conspiracy theory was.
But, undeterred, the propagandists metastasized the horror into America at large via QAnon.
(I strongly suspect both were active meaures by Russian intelligence. )
I actually agree with this. I hold them all responsible. It is like they think American democracy is some kind of perpetual motion machine that does not require care and oiling and attention keep running. They just keep throwing muck in the gears to keep their people in power and Make America White Again, or Republican Again, or some such drivel.
Agree, mostly. Not wanting to absolve the enablers but "not policing" is different from believing what the devotees believe. More odious, actually. They should not sit by during the zombie apocalypse waiting for the zombies to come to their senses.
You expect a lot. Push back is push back. (for that matter, McCain said that the swiftboating of John kerry was "bullshit.") Also, John McCain was the one who put a stake through the heart of Putin's expectation that Trump would lift sanctions via EO: The "Countering Russian (Foreign?) Aggression Act of 2017," passed by a veto-proof majority, took away trump's ability to do that.
What I also found infuriating and inexplicable was his blah-blah about bipartisanship, sounding like, well, Biden. Such nonsense.
Thanks for saying this for me. I was so frustrated when I heard his disparagements. No side is perfect but we haven’t accused them of being blood sucking pedophiles.
Yes that’s what I meant. Thanks for correction
Well said. I don’t think Christie understands the Bulwark audience. We’re not as gullible as Republican voters. The fact that he still isn’t being honest was obvious. I am all for welcoming anyone into the Never Trump fold, even if they were with Trump until very recently, but Christie’s dishonesty about some of these basic facts tells me he’s not really Never Trump. He’s still lying to us (and maybe himself) to justify keeping one toe in the Maybe Trump camp.
I don't think Christie cares who the Bulwark audience is, he's concerned about how it will play in the land of sometimes-Trumpers. If he's gonna go after Trump, he needs to toe the rest of the Republican line. I notice Charlie did not ask him what was so horrible about Hillary that he would blind himself to Trumps obvious flaws, ignorance, unsuitability, pettiness and malice.
I think you're right. I wanted to call BS and several things he said, e.g. what Mary mentioned above. Christie's not stupid, so why would he say such things? He wasn't trying to win us over, he was trying to play to the GOP base (I don't how he thinks he's going to attack TFG head-on *and* win over the base though -- not sure that's going to work).
Charlie, I also agree with Ben here; it would have been nice had you pressed him on what was/is so awful about Hillary. That needed some follow-up.
I think he was hoping to maybe peel off some Never Trumpers who also are Never Hillary, but I don’t think he understands just how vociferously anti-Trump we are.
Yes I agree with you too!
Well and truly said!!!!!
It was the "I" in ILOBS that confuses people!