Just 2 cents here. Not looking to gainsay anyone's opinion on this.
Was aware of the origin of pot / kettle, but not the medieval connection to cards. My own experience with the word and phrase has been this: 'call a spade a spade' meant speaking frankly and honestly. No racial connection. As to the word itself, in my youth (a long time ago and in a southern state), I heard the word spade used as a derogatory racial term a few times, always by people of my parent's generation or older. Don't think I ever heard it used that way by people my age or, later, younger than me, though some of those folks had plenty of other derogatory and racist words to use and not much compunction about using them.
Some terms or phrases do depend on 'black' (or darkness) as a means to create negative meaning or connotation...'black-hearted', for instance. Don't think there's anything racial about that one, at least I could find none associated with its etymology. But I'll bet there are some people somewhere who would see it that way for some reason.
Words and language can be tricky things. Time passes, meanings and connotations change, sometimes only slightly, sometimes more so, as common usage and understanding at the time dictate. And so you end up with what we have here.
I don't often think to use the phrase 'call a...' because it has fallen by the wayside a good bit. But when it comes to mind, I don't think of it as racist.
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, meaning is in the mind of the listener (or reader). And we're all unique individuals with different experiences. As relates to that G.B. Shaw quote about two peoples (Brits and Americans) being divided by a common language, I often think the same applies in a way about us as Americans alone: a people sometimes divided by a common language, at least to some extent.
I am also intrigued by your idea of 'fossil racism' in our language. Never thought of that before. In case you haven't guessed, language and words and their usage are of interest to me. No expert by any means. Just an interested observer (and user). So, thanks for a new idea and something else to contemplate in that regard.
I think be mindful and count to ten both good advice.
Yeah, definitions can often seem 'polite' compared to how a word or phrase may be understood colloquially. One example from many of a quick google re: 'call a...': "speak plainly without avoiding unpleasant issues". Which really has been my own personal experience with this particular phrase, but obviously not yours or others. Perceptions of meanings depend on different things, and often we aren't aware of what they even are. And sometimes our own perceptions of meanings change with time. Which is what I was getting at with that "a people sometimes divided by a common language" thought. Not sure a whole lot can be done about that, other than the type of thing that's been going on here. It's a very large and diverse country, after all. And as with other things, one size doesn't always fit all. But on a more positive note, we'd all probably be bored a lot more often if it did. ;-)
I actually never heard the word тАЬspadeтАЭ used derogatorily. And never heard it applied to humans until I went to a racially diverse boarding school. The black kids used it about themselvesтАж idk. My brain hurts now.
I was intrigued by your concept of fossil racism in our language and hoping to see some concrete examples. However, when cooks used open fires to prepare meals, pots and kettles both became black with soot. It is not a nonsense saying.
"To call a spade a spade means to speak the unvarnished truth, to speak plainly and without embellishment and without softening the hard realities of that truth. The term to call a spade a spade has its roots in Ancient Greece, in a phrase found in PlutarchтАЩs Apophthegmata Laconic: тАЬтАжto call a fig a fig and a trough a trough.тАЭ Later, in the mid-1500s, the Dutch scholar Erasmus collected various Greek works and translated them into Latin, at which time he interpreted the aphorism as тАЬтАжto call a spade a spade.тАЭ https://grammarist.com/idiom/call-a-spade-a-spade/ The phrase was ruined in the 1920s when "spade" became a pejorative for black people.
I did not know any of this until I looked it up. I did not know "spade" was ever a pejorative for black people. I have never once heard the word used that way in my life. The lesson is to count to ten before ascribing racism. The all-too-quick jumping to conclusions gets elevated by segments of the right as "the left are finding racism under every rock" as a reason to dismiss actual instances of racism.
We have discussed 2, then another of my favorites, across the south,is the use of Jew as a verb for hard bargaining. If you and your date split expenses you are going dutch. There are others and none of them in current usage for most people are derogatory but when they get vigorous defense one wonders.
Not seeing anyone defending Jew as a verb. Here's one for your list that most people have no idea about: Gyp'ed as a verb.
Why assume someone is looking for cover when all they do are explaining that that is not what the term means to them? Both of your terms that you seem to have issue with have non-racial origins, and are not commonly thought of as such in various wide circles. I can see a pretty big difference between black pots and spades and other terms like Jew as a verb.
The first two are turns of phrases that some people alive today learned when they were young from parents and grand parents who learned them before there were racial overtones. My parents had grandparents born 20-30 years before 'spade' got racial overtones. That's where they learned those terms, and thus where I did. To throw around your own racism term and accuse people of seeking cover from it seems counterproductive in these instances. Can those phrases be taken wrong, sure. Are they of origin or general use meant wrong, no.
On the other hand, there really is no defending using a term like Jew or Gyp as verbs, even though many people don't think of them as being derogatory. Most people would recognize them as such pretty quickly.
He has been asked for concrete examples of his intriguing idea of fossil racist language, but so far, "to Jew" is the only example he has offered, and even that example isn't really a fossil in his sense of unwitting use of language with racist origins.
Your example of "to gyp" is better. Its origin is obvious to an educated person, however it is not obvious to someone, especially children and young people, who does not know the history of public sentiment toward and stereotypes of Gypsies.
I would avoid the phrase "to call a spade a spade" because it has been ruined. I also avoid a whole list of unwitting sexual terms.
Words which were never connected to race donтАЩt become racist because people decide they do. тАЬCalling a spade a spadeтАЭ is just a colloquialism for plain talk. Until you give a concrete example of the alleged тАЬfossilizationтАЭ it remains just a theory.
I think the more interesting part of this back and forth is how strongly people want to deny the obvious, "calling a spade a spade" is deeply tied into American racism. It is not calling a shovel a shovel or a playing card a playing card. But I suspect the examples of both given here were just as bigoted in their day. After all how is calling a shovel a shovel blunt speaking unless calling a shovel a shovel is an insult that would make polite folks uncomfortable.
We are all racist it is part of our nature but we are, also, intelligent animals and can modify and control our nature.
My personal story, I grew up in an overtly racist world. That world didn't use euphemisms or dog whistles, we used the real words. In other words we called a spade a spade. For 60 years I've been working to root out the racism instilled in my childhood. More or less successful. But it has taken work and vigilance. My original comment was a musing on how even after 60 years, I'm not through yet.
To follow where you all want to lead me would be an easy path but it won't get to where I want to be.
We have discussed zero examples.. Both of your supposed examples predate American racism and had zero to do with black people. One example was corrupted in the 1920s and should probably be avoided. No one has defended the use of racist language in any way.
Your examples here are better. The anti-semitic use of "to jew" can even be found in Shakespeare. "Going dutch" came from the English experience with negotiating with The Netherlands and concluding they were stingy. Not racist exactly, but at least there is a direct connection between the people and the saying, not a merely coincidental connection stemming from the relatively recent adoption of the word "black" as opposed to the historical appellations of "Negro" or "Colored" as memorialized in the name of the NAACP, founded in 1909.
What is your point? The saying originally came from Cervantes' novel, Don Quixote. Another early instance is from a book called Some Fruits of Solitude by William Penn, 1693:
тАЬFor a Covetous Man to inveigh against Prodigality, an Atheist against Idolatry, a Tyrant against Rebellion, or a Lyer against Forgery, and a Drunkard against Intemperance, is for the Pot to call the Kettle black.тАЭ
A saying is not rendered racist simply because it includes the word "black" even when the phrase has a negative connotation. For example, the phrase "black magic" is very old and has nothing to do with racism. The real problem is the over-simplification of the wide variety of skin tones. My son noticed this oversimplification when he was five and asked me, "Why do people say my friend is black when actually he is brown." Your extremism only alienates allies.
"I think myself an enlightened person but I catch myself doing it some times."
Leads me to wonder the value you bring to any alliance. Something you clearly believe passionately is racist language you catch yourself still using? Maybe more time in a mirror rather than preaching to those who may well be less guilty of overt transgressions than you admit to.
You are on the verge of asserting that every instance of a phrase that includes the word "black" in a negative connotation is by definition racist. Is that what you mean?
Not one person here has defended the use of racist language.
Thank you. This is what I was looking/asking for. I had seen the term used as a pejorative in novels I read as a young person. I was thinking that maybe because the Spade suite in a deck of cards is black? I'm not always sure how to ask the right questions to get what I'm looking for. Thanks for your intuitiveness.
Well, I wasn't asking for "cover". I just asked a simple question. Is that where using the term came from? Which you did not answer. Perhaps you don't know, either.
Nah, sorry that doesn't give you cover, it is like the term "Pot calling the kettle black"
both rely of black being a derogatory description. other wise they are nonsense.
Just 2 cents here. Not looking to gainsay anyone's opinion on this.
Was aware of the origin of pot / kettle, but not the medieval connection to cards. My own experience with the word and phrase has been this: 'call a spade a spade' meant speaking frankly and honestly. No racial connection. As to the word itself, in my youth (a long time ago and in a southern state), I heard the word spade used as a derogatory racial term a few times, always by people of my parent's generation or older. Don't think I ever heard it used that way by people my age or, later, younger than me, though some of those folks had plenty of other derogatory and racist words to use and not much compunction about using them.
Some terms or phrases do depend on 'black' (or darkness) as a means to create negative meaning or connotation...'black-hearted', for instance. Don't think there's anything racial about that one, at least I could find none associated with its etymology. But I'll bet there are some people somewhere who would see it that way for some reason.
Words and language can be tricky things. Time passes, meanings and connotations change, sometimes only slightly, sometimes more so, as common usage and understanding at the time dictate. And so you end up with what we have here.
I don't often think to use the phrase 'call a...' because it has fallen by the wayside a good bit. But when it comes to mind, I don't think of it as racist.
As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, meaning is in the mind of the listener (or reader). And we're all unique individuals with different experiences. As relates to that G.B. Shaw quote about two peoples (Brits and Americans) being divided by a common language, I often think the same applies in a way about us as Americans alone: a people sometimes divided by a common language, at least to some extent.
I am also intrigued by your idea of 'fossil racism' in our language. Never thought of that before. In case you haven't guessed, language and words and their usage are of interest to me. No expert by any means. Just an interested observer (and user). So, thanks for a new idea and something else to contemplate in that regard.
I think be mindful and count to ten both good advice.
"'call a spade a spade' meant speaking frankly and honestly. "
I've never heard it used that way. Or maybe the definition is phrased that politely.
What I hear is this, "I'm going to say this and I don't give a Fk if you like it or not.
The modern equivalent "this may not be politically correct but..."
Yeah, definitions can often seem 'polite' compared to how a word or phrase may be understood colloquially. One example from many of a quick google re: 'call a...': "speak plainly without avoiding unpleasant issues". Which really has been my own personal experience with this particular phrase, but obviously not yours or others. Perceptions of meanings depend on different things, and often we aren't aware of what they even are. And sometimes our own perceptions of meanings change with time. Which is what I was getting at with that "a people sometimes divided by a common language" thought. Not sure a whole lot can be done about that, other than the type of thing that's been going on here. It's a very large and diverse country, after all. And as with other things, one size doesn't always fit all. But on a more positive note, we'd all probably be bored a lot more often if it did. ;-)
Your definition/usage is why I called it a fossil.
For most of the 20 century at least, it has been deeply tied to American racism even if certain individuals don't currently use it that way.
I actually never heard the word тАЬspadeтАЭ used derogatorily. And never heard it applied to humans until I went to a racially diverse boarding school. The black kids used it about themselvesтАж idk. My brain hurts now.
Yeah. I get a headache or 3 along these lines sometimes.
Recommend aspirin. Or bourbon. (Not in tandem, though.) Myself, I prefer the 90-proof remedy.
I was intrigued by your concept of fossil racism in our language and hoping to see some concrete examples. However, when cooks used open fires to prepare meals, pots and kettles both became black with soot. It is not a nonsense saying.
"To call a spade a spade means to speak the unvarnished truth, to speak plainly and without embellishment and without softening the hard realities of that truth. The term to call a spade a spade has its roots in Ancient Greece, in a phrase found in PlutarchтАЩs Apophthegmata Laconic: тАЬтАжto call a fig a fig and a trough a trough.тАЭ Later, in the mid-1500s, the Dutch scholar Erasmus collected various Greek works and translated them into Latin, at which time he interpreted the aphorism as тАЬтАжto call a spade a spade.тАЭ https://grammarist.com/idiom/call-a-spade-a-spade/ The phrase was ruined in the 1920s when "spade" became a pejorative for black people.
I did not know any of this until I looked it up. I did not know "spade" was ever a pejorative for black people. I have never once heard the word used that way in my life. The lesson is to count to ten before ascribing racism. The all-too-quick jumping to conclusions gets elevated by segments of the right as "the left are finding racism under every rock" as a reason to dismiss actual instances of racism.
I think I love you! тЭдя╕П
There is a reason I used the term Fossil in that people will use a term but not knowing the racism underneath.
Then when they are looking for cover they did like you did with your camp fire or the other example of playing cards.
The amazing thing is in one quick google you discovered that for 100 years calling a spade a spade had racist overtones
I like the term "fossil" but so far you have not identified any examples of such fossils.
We have discussed 2, then another of my favorites, across the south,is the use of Jew as a verb for hard bargaining. If you and your date split expenses you are going dutch. There are others and none of them in current usage for most people are derogatory but when they get vigorous defense one wonders.
Not seeing anyone defending Jew as a verb. Here's one for your list that most people have no idea about: Gyp'ed as a verb.
Why assume someone is looking for cover when all they do are explaining that that is not what the term means to them? Both of your terms that you seem to have issue with have non-racial origins, and are not commonly thought of as such in various wide circles. I can see a pretty big difference between black pots and spades and other terms like Jew as a verb.
The first two are turns of phrases that some people alive today learned when they were young from parents and grand parents who learned them before there were racial overtones. My parents had grandparents born 20-30 years before 'spade' got racial overtones. That's where they learned those terms, and thus where I did. To throw around your own racism term and accuse people of seeking cover from it seems counterproductive in these instances. Can those phrases be taken wrong, sure. Are they of origin or general use meant wrong, no.
On the other hand, there really is no defending using a term like Jew or Gyp as verbs, even though many people don't think of them as being derogatory. Most people would recognize them as such pretty quickly.
Also, *sigh* is not an argument with much merit.
He has been asked for concrete examples of his intriguing idea of fossil racist language, but so far, "to Jew" is the only example he has offered, and even that example isn't really a fossil in his sense of unwitting use of language with racist origins.
Your example of "to gyp" is better. Its origin is obvious to an educated person, however it is not obvious to someone, especially children and young people, who does not know the history of public sentiment toward and stereotypes of Gypsies.
I would avoid the phrase "to call a spade a spade" because it has been ruined. I also avoid a whole list of unwitting sexual terms.
Words which were never connected to race donтАЩt become racist because people decide they do. тАЬCalling a spade a spadeтАЭ is just a colloquialism for plain talk. Until you give a concrete example of the alleged тАЬfossilizationтАЭ it remains just a theory.
I think the more interesting part of this back and forth is how strongly people want to deny the obvious, "calling a spade a spade" is deeply tied into American racism. It is not calling a shovel a shovel or a playing card a playing card. But I suspect the examples of both given here were just as bigoted in their day. After all how is calling a shovel a shovel blunt speaking unless calling a shovel a shovel is an insult that would make polite folks uncomfortable.
We are all racist it is part of our nature but we are, also, intelligent animals and can modify and control our nature.
My personal story, I grew up in an overtly racist world. That world didn't use euphemisms or dog whistles, we used the real words. In other words we called a spade a spade. For 60 years I've been working to root out the racism instilled in my childhood. More or less successful. But it has taken work and vigilance. My original comment was a musing on how even after 60 years, I'm not through yet.
To follow where you all want to lead me would be an easy path but it won't get to where I want to be.
Jack
We have discussed zero examples.. Both of your supposed examples predate American racism and had zero to do with black people. One example was corrupted in the 1920s and should probably be avoided. No one has defended the use of racist language in any way.
Your examples here are better. The anti-semitic use of "to jew" can even be found in Shakespeare. "Going dutch" came from the English experience with negotiating with The Netherlands and concluding they were stingy. Not racist exactly, but at least there is a direct connection between the people and the saying, not a merely coincidental connection stemming from the relatively recent adoption of the word "black" as opposed to the historical appellations of "Negro" or "Colored" as memorialized in the name of the NAACP, founded in 1909.
Ha, I love it!
How we want to hang on to racist terms, I guess it is not a fossil after all.
And of course the pot calling the kettle black is just a campfire discussion.
Got it.
What is your point? The saying originally came from Cervantes' novel, Don Quixote. Another early instance is from a book called Some Fruits of Solitude by William Penn, 1693:
тАЬFor a Covetous Man to inveigh against Prodigality, an Atheist against Idolatry, a Tyrant against Rebellion, or a Lyer against Forgery, and a Drunkard against Intemperance, is for the Pot to call the Kettle black.тАЭ
A saying is not rendered racist simply because it includes the word "black" even when the phrase has a negative connotation. For example, the phrase "black magic" is very old and has nothing to do with racism. The real problem is the over-simplification of the wide variety of skin tones. My son noticed this oversimplification when he was five and asked me, "Why do people say my friend is black when actually he is brown." Your extremism only alienates allies.
No the real problem is willful blindness and an attempt to defend the indefensible. When I see that I have wonder the value of such an alliance.
I started this with a "benefit of the doubt" thus the term fossil.
Now I wonder.
"I think myself an enlightened person but I catch myself doing it some times."
Leads me to wonder the value you bring to any alliance. Something you clearly believe passionately is racist language you catch yourself still using? Maybe more time in a mirror rather than preaching to those who may well be less guilty of overt transgressions than you admit to.
really? lol
As I have said else where I've been looking at that mirror since I was a child old enough to understand morality.
You and others want to defend using those terms go ahead, it is your soul.
You are on the verge of asserting that every instance of a phrase that includes the word "black" in a negative connotation is by definition racist. Is that what you mean?
Not one person here has defended the use of racist language.
Thank you. This is what I was looking/asking for. I had seen the term used as a pejorative in novels I read as a young person. I was thinking that maybe because the Spade suite in a deck of cards is black? I'm not always sure how to ask the right questions to get what I'm looking for. Thanks for your intuitiveness.
Well, I wasn't asking for "cover". I just asked a simple question. Is that where using the term came from? Which you did not answer. Perhaps you don't know, either.