All correct, with a concommitant feature: from Marius to Sulla to Cataline to Caesar, you can trace the degradation of the Horation/Cincinnatian ideal. By the time of Caesar pretty much the only figure left who gave a damn about it was Cicero, and look what happened to him! That the ideal was never even close to being honored in pr…
All correct, with a concommitant feature: from Marius to Sulla to Cataline to Caesar, you can trace the degradation of the Horation/Cincinnatian ideal. By the time of Caesar pretty much the only figure left who gave a damn about it was Cicero, and look what happened to him! That the ideal was never even close to being honored in practice to the extent it was believed in by the very people whose behavior destroyed it does not mean it was real and vital.
You mention the blood ties that failed and the result was breach of the peace between the contenders. When blood ties are all there is to keep the peace, that means civil bonds have dissolved.
In WWII Bush 1 showed up at the bridge -- not just him, but the bulk of the upper and middle crust. Downhill from there, his son in my generation ducked the contest and took advantage of his position to play with jet aircraft on weekends and have his teeth cleaned at public expense. At least he showed up for work occasionally and followed the admittedly corrupt rules by which to avoid the trouble and vexation of offshore military service. Some who opposed the war also answered the call in a different way -- honorably opposing it -- but most of us did not. Our moral outrage suddenly abated when the draft did. Now we have the Trumps and Greitens and all their ilk, who collectively can't boast even a remnant shred of Horatian principle. A nation of Catalines. And proud of being so. A sucker monument in Arlington is not for them.
I think all the dour killjoy moralists who over the centuries warn that wealth and luxury inevitably destroys public virtue have a point. America, another republican example.
100%. Upper crust has no stake in the struggles of the nation anymore. The people I felt the worst for in the Late Republic were Cato & Cicero. Both loved the Republic deeply and tried their best to preserve it. All for nothing.
Two very different Romans, the new man and the oldest of the old. Both washed away by history.
In none of the history I've read do I find encouragement that republics endure for long. Caste systems endure, empires do fall but if they do not perish with civilization itself, merely engender successor empires.
Republics don't last because for a republic to prosper the parties contenting for pre-eminence need to want to govern, not rule. When they give up on the idea that governance is desirable, or conclude that it is no longer possible, they turn to the only alternative, which is striving to rule, for at that point it is rule or be ruled.
Time and history just ran out for Rome. And for Florence. And Venice. And now America.
All correct, with a concommitant feature: from Marius to Sulla to Cataline to Caesar, you can trace the degradation of the Horation/Cincinnatian ideal. By the time of Caesar pretty much the only figure left who gave a damn about it was Cicero, and look what happened to him! That the ideal was never even close to being honored in practice to the extent it was believed in by the very people whose behavior destroyed it does not mean it was real and vital.
You mention the blood ties that failed and the result was breach of the peace between the contenders. When blood ties are all there is to keep the peace, that means civil bonds have dissolved.
In WWII Bush 1 showed up at the bridge -- not just him, but the bulk of the upper and middle crust. Downhill from there, his son in my generation ducked the contest and took advantage of his position to play with jet aircraft on weekends and have his teeth cleaned at public expense. At least he showed up for work occasionally and followed the admittedly corrupt rules by which to avoid the trouble and vexation of offshore military service. Some who opposed the war also answered the call in a different way -- honorably opposing it -- but most of us did not. Our moral outrage suddenly abated when the draft did. Now we have the Trumps and Greitens and all their ilk, who collectively can't boast even a remnant shred of Horatian principle. A nation of Catalines. And proud of being so. A sucker monument in Arlington is not for them.
I think all the dour killjoy moralists who over the centuries warn that wealth and luxury inevitably destroys public virtue have a point. America, another republican example.
100%. Upper crust has no stake in the struggles of the nation anymore. The people I felt the worst for in the Late Republic were Cato & Cicero. Both loved the Republic deeply and tried their best to preserve it. All for nothing.
Two very different Romans, the new man and the oldest of the old. Both washed away by history.
In none of the history I've read do I find encouragement that republics endure for long. Caste systems endure, empires do fall but if they do not perish with civilization itself, merely engender successor empires.
Republics don't last because for a republic to prosper the parties contenting for pre-eminence need to want to govern, not rule. When they give up on the idea that governance is desirable, or conclude that it is no longer possible, they turn to the only alternative, which is striving to rule, for at that point it is rule or be ruled.
Time and history just ran out for Rome. And for Florence. And Venice. And now America.