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Maxdaddio's avatar

Thank you for publishing Prof Cairo's piece. As the parent of a transgender son in Wisconsin, the lead up to this election has been one of increasing anxiety and fear. Many in the GOP here also want to enact the same sort of draconian laws as in DeSantis' Florida. And all too frequently, we have only been hearing the howling from the right about these issues, with very little push back from experts and care providers (as well as parents) of transgender kids. Putting Cairo's voice out there helps in letting people know the reality of our and our child's situation.

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Jane in NC's avatar

It's really sad and pathetic that in 2022 we still have people who don't know the difference between sex and gender. I worry for all the trans kids who will grow up in fear, just as lesbian, gay and bi-sexual kids did in earlier generations. It's like half this country has learned nothing at all in recent decades or from history.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

You're making shit up and calling it science.

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Jane in NC's avatar

You skipped science class in high school, didn't ya, Kev?

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Kev_WDE's avatar

No. ThatтАЩs where we learned about X and Y chromosomes.

Do you remember those?

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Jane in NC's avatar

That's biological sex. Not gender. But you know that already. And you've become pedantic. And boring.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

Male = man.

Female = woman.

WhatтАЩs difficult?

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knowltok's avatar

I know a kid who recently dropped Sociology class at a Catholic college because they were trying to teach him the difference.

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Jane in NC's avatar

As a recovering catholic, I an attest that that's typical of their thinking.

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TomD's avatar

As with many other issues of medicine and science, the Right has been convinced that trans is not real--that it is a fad, like eating Tide pods--a fad that teachers and doctors are promoting .

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Kev_WDE's avatar

When the Left contends that men can have babies, itтАЩs low-hanging fruit.

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TomD's avatar

Ask yourself why Bruce Jenner switched to Caitlin. (Hint: it wasn't a prank and it wasn't to make money.)

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Jane in NC's avatar

Probably time we all stopped feeding the troll.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

Because heтАЩs mentally ill.

He is a freak.

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TomD's avatar

Who appointed you pursuit of happiness czar?

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Jane in NC's avatar

Well, geez, I must have missed that meeting of 'The LeftтДвя╕П'.

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knowltok's avatar

It occurred on 1/6/21. You probably missed it while 'The Right' tried to overthrow our government.

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Jane in NC's avatar

Ah, that explains it. I was a bit distracted by all the 'patriots' that day.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

Can men have babies?

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Jane in NC's avatar

A trans man who hasn't undergone reassignment could. But in general, no.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

ThatтАЩs not a man. ThatтАЩs a woman. You people donтАЩt understand science. Or the English language.

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Oct 24, 2022
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Kev_WDE's avatar

IтАЩve been informed in this very thread that a man can get pregnant.

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Sherm's avatar

Define "man," please?

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CW Stanford's avatar

Define youth first.

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Carol S.'s avatar

There are biological (scientific) definitions of male and female that have been recognized in most animal species, including humans, across the historical record. Aside from a tiny number of people with ambiguous sex organs, the distinction hasn't been considered a complicated or subjective matter until very recently.

Now, a lot of people who claim to be defenders of science insist that for humans -- and apparently only for humans -- whether one is objectively male or female rests entirely in the mind and that the body has nothing to do with it -- except that the project of trying to make the body conform to the mind is an acknowledgment that the male/female difference does in fact correlate with specific bodily characteristics.

By the same token, if someone with a male body "feels like a woman," there must be some preexisting concept of "woman" that the person is referencing. The person is not assuming that man & woman are entirely subjective, fluid ideas that can be whatever any given individual wants them to be.

Some people do "identify" as nonbinary, and there is an ambiguity about how they come across in terms of gender. I respect such people as human beings (and I'm willing to use the pronouns they prefer), though scientifically they are either women with some masculine-leaning characteristics or vice versa. Their existence does not render the whole male/female difference an entirely subjective matter.

I am certain that my pointing out these simple realities will result in people labeling me a bigot or claim that I harbor ill will toward people who are uncomfortable with their biological sex -- which is categorially false. But I know that some of those people regret trying to make their body align with their mind, and some have found more long-term peace in adjusting their thinking to accept their bodies and themselves as they are, without a lifetime of hormone injections (following drastic surgery). Acknowledging THOSE people's reality is not bigoted.

If adults choose to "transition" and end up happier, that is a good outcome. For children it's different, given the body of evidence that the rush of hormones in puberty is likely to make them feel more like the gender of their body. They can then be spared drastic surgery and a lifetime of hormone therapy that never fully turns them into the other sex (which, again, they acknowledge as something with an objective basis), and that some of them will regret.

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Sherm's avatar

"There are biological (scientific) definitions of male and female that have been recognized in most animal species, including humans, across the historical record."

Yes, sex characteristics. Most of the things people point to when describing a "woman" (versus a female) are tenuously linked to sex characteristics at best, which is why gender was decoupled from sex all those decades ago.

"Now, a lot of people who claim to be defenders of science insist that for humans -- and apparently only for humans"

Humans are the only animals that have complex culture. We don't have dictionaries for dogs, either, but that doesn't make the practice of creating dictionaries questionable.

FWIW, I don't think you're bigoted. I do however think you're approaching this with the assumption that a lot of people are approaching gender reassignment lightly, and I think that's more than a little paternalistic. I think raising children in environments of religious fundamentalism is abusive. That doesn't mean I spend my days insisting that any religious training poses the threat of damage to children. Because most parents navigate the issue as well as anyone can reasonably be expected, and making rules to the exception is always a bad idea.

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Kev_WDE's avatar

Justice Jackson? Is that you?

Um, тАЬIтАЩm not a biologist.тАЭ

What do I win?

тАЬMan,тАЭ means someone with a penis who hasnтАЩt been genitally mutilated & pumped full of chemicals.

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Paul Mccrary's avatar

So a man who loses his penis in an accident I'd noonget a man?

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Kev_WDE's avatar

IтАЩm sure you people think this is funny.

Keep laughing when you get your asses handed to you Nov. 8.

Tell yourself mental illness combined with genital self-mutilation is perfectly normal, and that people who think biological males shouldnтАЩt play womenтАЩs sports are bigots.

You people are *insane.*

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Sherm's avatar

So it's just having a penis and a lack of extra chemicals? Is someone intersex who has a penis and ovaries a man? If someone loses their penis in an accident, does he stop being a man? If a middle aged dude has to start taking testosterone supplements, is he not a man, since he's now pumped full of chemicals?

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Kev_WDE's avatar

One day, when you might ask yourself тАЬHow in the world was someone like Donald Trump elected president,тАЭ it may dawn on youтАж

Telling average Americans that thereтАЩs no difference between men and women тАФ in fact, sex is a social construct! тАФ *might* have had something to do with it.

You know very well what I meant. I am no Trumpist, just a conservative wishing he had a political party to call home.

The whole bullshit тАЬtransтАЭ movement is out of step with average Americans. Period.

They see a 6тАЩ4тАЭ thing with breasts & a dick тАФ in a girlтАЩs bathing suit тАФ тАЬwinningтАЭ womenтАЩs swim meets, and are grossed out.

Keep telling yourself that people who reject such obvious bullshit are hateful luddites.

And keep wondering why you lose on this issue.

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Harley "Griff" Lofton's avatar

All the while downing double doses of Ivermectin...

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TomD's avatar

I like my deplorables worm-free.

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Dave Conant - MO's avatar

Your deplorables are worms, tough to get free.

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knowltok's avatar

My research (conducted by myself, thank you very much!) indicates that a triple dose is needed. Well, a triple dose combined with my patent pending ultraviolet tablets I'm selling. The medical establishment doesn't want you to know about this, but...

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Harley "Griff" Lofton's avatar

"...with very little push back from experts and care providers (as well as parents) of transgender kids."

Sadly professional expertise and personal parental experience is perceived by these people as illegitimate and just more liberal elites shoving their "gender agenda" down their throats.

Pushing back is like playing an exhausting game of "Whack-a-Mole"... and it will get far worse before it gets better.

Their cruelty is the point.

God help all of our trans kids who have been deemed as either nonexistent or a moral hazard by these political monsters.

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