2, 4 ,6 ,8 we don't want no F**king 2 state..lets go back to '48…I thought they wanted a deal..but apparently not! that's all I needed to hear…and your antics elected Trump..for that you are not forgiven! AND I defend your right to protest!
The Israeli brutality in Gaza has created more Hamas supporters in Gaza and around the world than there ever were before. BTW - I am not a Hamas supporter, tho I'm sure you will assume that I am because I have the temerity to criticize the actions of Israel.
Yet another example of historical ignorance. Even if you accept Hamas's numbers regarding casualties, which count their own terrorists as civilians and are likely inflated by a factor of two, the civilian casualties are remarkably low compared to most other urban conflicts of the past century. By your standards the Allies would have had to stand down against Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 because defeating them killed too many civilians.
Gazans celebrated the death, cruelty and genocide exhibited on Oct 7th. They continue to celebrate and support Hamas. They have no desire to live side-by-side with Israel and jews, they wish to wipe them off the map. Israel is justified in the actions they've taken and it would end tomorrow if Hamas handed over the hostages! They bring this on their own people and the blood and responsibility lies at their feet
To quote Peter Beinart in "Being a Jew after the Destruction of Gaza":
"I still believe in the metaphor of Jews as a family. But it has been corrupted. Jewish leaders have turned our commitment to one another into a moral sedative. They have traded on our solidarity to justify starvation and slaughter. They have told us that the way we show we care about the Israelis taken hostage by Hamas is to support a war that kills and starves those very hostages, and that the way to honor the memory of the Israelis Hamas murdered is to support a war that will create tens of thousands more scarred, desperate young Palestinians eager to avenge their loved ones by taking Israeli lives. We need a new story--based on equality rather than supremacy--because the current one doesn't endanger only Palestinians. It endangers us."
And Beinart is no liberal squish, he's a former editor of The New Republic and editor-at-large at Jewish Currents.
I once thought of Beinart as a thoughtful thinker about Israeli-Palestinian issues. But over the last few years he has moved his opinions into favoring a quasi federated "one state solution" in which Jews and Arabs will share what is the current majority Jewish State of Israel. He's entitled to his opinion, but let's not pretend he represents anything other than a distinct minority position of Jewish Americans when it comes to Israel. And for the record Jewish Currents, while interesting, is a progressive publication. Suggesting it is in any way part of mainstream American Jewish thought is disingenuous at best.
Sorry Peter..the long arm of history is against you..the Jews escaped to Egypt and then they came back..they were sent to Babylon and they came back..the Romans scattered them after the second rebellion and then they came back…the Germans gassed them and they came back. They will defend their home. And every Ten years the Palestinians will try again.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Because the people of Gaza are very much aware that there’s something Hamas could do that would end all this immediately: surrender and release the hostages.
It would be the rational thing to do. They’ve picked a fight with a hopelessly superior enemy, have no chance of victory, and their entire plan is to sit in tunnels while their people suffer above ground, take no responsibility for what is happening and pretend Israel started all this, steal the bulk of the humanitarian aid sent in, and then prepare to declare a perverse victory just by not having all died while their senior leadership profits handsomely from Iran’s largesse sent their way from safety in Qatar.
The people of Gaza aren’t blind. They know their misery is being used as foil by Hamas, and they do not love their erstwhile masters for it.
I'll give you a historical example. In WWII, Nazi commanders would execute a dozen random civilians in a village for every German solder killed by resistance fighters in that village.
The "appropriate" response would have been to identify the actual culprit and punish the resistance operative for espionage (operating in enemy territory without a uniform violates the rules of war).
Now, do you think the villagers held the resistance fighters morally responsible for the execution of their peers? Or the Nazi commanders?
Here are some excerpts from the Hamas Charter. Support this and you support the murder of all Jews. It is a very, very founded allegation:
The Hamas Covenant
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:
Goals of the HAMAS:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)
On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)
The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:
"The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)
"Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)
The call to jihad:
"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)
Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)
Anti-Semitic incitement:
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
"The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)
"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)
"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)
Most people don't even understand what a Waqf is or why that is in many respects the scariest part of the Charter. It means that Hamas can never, ever compromise and allow Jews to live in the region. It isn't consistent with Islam -- never has an entire country been declared a Waqf -- but Islam also allows Jews to live peacefully in Muslim ruled countries, being exempted from military service in return for paying the jirza tax. Hamas doesn't accept that, either.
He is a Hamas supporter. Hamas wants genocide of Jews. End of story.
2, 4 ,6 ,8 we don't want no F**king 2 state..lets go back to '48…I thought they wanted a deal..but apparently not! that's all I needed to hear…and your antics elected Trump..for that you are not forgiven! AND I defend your right to protest!
The Israeli brutality in Gaza has created more Hamas supporters in Gaza and around the world than there ever were before. BTW - I am not a Hamas supporter, tho I'm sure you will assume that I am because I have the temerity to criticize the actions of Israel.
Yet another example of historical ignorance. Even if you accept Hamas's numbers regarding casualties, which count their own terrorists as civilians and are likely inflated by a factor of two, the civilian casualties are remarkably low compared to most other urban conflicts of the past century. By your standards the Allies would have had to stand down against Nazi Germany and Japan in WW2 because defeating them killed too many civilians.
Gazans celebrated the death, cruelty and genocide exhibited on Oct 7th. They continue to celebrate and support Hamas. They have no desire to live side-by-side with Israel and jews, they wish to wipe them off the map. Israel is justified in the actions they've taken and it would end tomorrow if Hamas handed over the hostages! They bring this on their own people and the blood and responsibility lies at their feet
To quote Peter Beinart in "Being a Jew after the Destruction of Gaza":
"I still believe in the metaphor of Jews as a family. But it has been corrupted. Jewish leaders have turned our commitment to one another into a moral sedative. They have traded on our solidarity to justify starvation and slaughter. They have told us that the way we show we care about the Israelis taken hostage by Hamas is to support a war that kills and starves those very hostages, and that the way to honor the memory of the Israelis Hamas murdered is to support a war that will create tens of thousands more scarred, desperate young Palestinians eager to avenge their loved ones by taking Israeli lives. We need a new story--based on equality rather than supremacy--because the current one doesn't endanger only Palestinians. It endangers us."
And Beinart is no liberal squish, he's a former editor of The New Republic and editor-at-large at Jewish Currents.
I once thought of Beinart as a thoughtful thinker about Israeli-Palestinian issues. But over the last few years he has moved his opinions into favoring a quasi federated "one state solution" in which Jews and Arabs will share what is the current majority Jewish State of Israel. He's entitled to his opinion, but let's not pretend he represents anything other than a distinct minority position of Jewish Americans when it comes to Israel. And for the record Jewish Currents, while interesting, is a progressive publication. Suggesting it is in any way part of mainstream American Jewish thought is disingenuous at best.
Not that you care, but the vast majority of us Jews think Beinart is a disgusting little "token Jew" troll.
Beinart is not a liberal squish, although he used to be. He is now a far left anti-Zionist activist.
Sorry Peter..the long arm of history is against you..the Jews escaped to Egypt and then they came back..they were sent to Babylon and they came back..the Romans scattered them after the second rebellion and then they came back…the Germans gassed them and they came back. They will defend their home. And every Ten years the Palestinians will try again.
I wouldn’t be so sure. Because the people of Gaza are very much aware that there’s something Hamas could do that would end all this immediately: surrender and release the hostages.
It would be the rational thing to do. They’ve picked a fight with a hopelessly superior enemy, have no chance of victory, and their entire plan is to sit in tunnels while their people suffer above ground, take no responsibility for what is happening and pretend Israel started all this, steal the bulk of the humanitarian aid sent in, and then prepare to declare a perverse victory just by not having all died while their senior leadership profits handsomely from Iran’s largesse sent their way from safety in Qatar.
The people of Gaza aren’t blind. They know their misery is being used as foil by Hamas, and they do not love their erstwhile masters for it.
I wouldn't be so sure about that reaction.
I'll give you a historical example. In WWII, Nazi commanders would execute a dozen random civilians in a village for every German solder killed by resistance fighters in that village.
The "appropriate" response would have been to identify the actual culprit and punish the resistance operative for espionage (operating in enemy territory without a uniform violates the rules of war).
Now, do you think the villagers held the resistance fighters morally responsible for the execution of their peers? Or the Nazi commanders?
That is a great analogy. Try out this one:
During WWII over 25000 non Jews in Europe risked their lives to save Jews.
SInce Oct 7th, not a single Palestinian has lifted a finger to help the hostages.
Now, do you think the Palestinian civilians or European civilians hold more moral responsibility for the torture and starvation of those hostages?
Here are some excerpts from the Hamas Charter. Support this and you support the murder of all Jews. It is a very, very founded allegation:
The Hamas Covenant
The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:
Goals of the HAMAS:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)
On the destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)
The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:
"The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)
"Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)
The call to jihad:
"The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)
"Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)
Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:
"[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)
Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:
"Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)
Anti-Semitic incitement:
The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)
"The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)
"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)
"The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)
Most people don't even understand what a Waqf is or why that is in many respects the scariest part of the Charter. It means that Hamas can never, ever compromise and allow Jews to live in the region. It isn't consistent with Islam -- never has an entire country been declared a Waqf -- but Islam also allows Jews to live peacefully in Muslim ruled countries, being exempted from military service in return for paying the jirza tax. Hamas doesn't accept that, either.