What ought to be taken seriously, too, is that Trump is a madman, a sociopath, a monster, and that our constitutional democracy is in grave peril. We'll soon find out that voting by tantrum has consequences.
And all the Muslims in Michigan, and all those young Democrats who voted for Trump or sat out because of Gaza. Incapable of making balanced judgements.
All that's true, Gene. But I've arrived at a place where I want the voters to fully experience the consequences of their foolishness and amorality. I welcome it. You should, too.
But as Kristol laid out, for Trump there are no consequences, ever, no matter how outrageous Trump’s violations. And that is why we should all be more vocal about the “outlandish” idea that Trump will cancel future elections. Why would he not?
There are no consequences for Trump because the great and good American people will not hold him accountable. The takeaway from the election is the great and good American people don't give a rat's ass about democracy, freedom, and any of that stuff.
I think his voters go along with this. I made a comment to a neighbor who is smart and friendly. He was very semi dishonest in business and thinks Trump is great. These policies of bullying and greed are also what he thinks president's should do. He has no problem as long his taxes are low and he keeps his money.
A majority of the members of a yacht club we once belonged to were intelligent, successful, and Never Dem because of their hard-earned dollars being confiscated by the evil McGovernment to fund "free stuff" for crackheads and the lazy. Reagan's welfare queen exists by the thousands in their minds.
IMO (gonna take you literally here), they do exist by the thousands. And in a country of 330M people, that is an acceptable level of aid being transferred in a leaky bucket. The problems are that:
1. People have no idea of scale, so a few thousand welfare cheats seems like a massive problem to them.
2. People get fixated on what they can relate to. The 'welfare queen' buying steak when they themselves cut back grinds their gears. The billionaire getting sweetheart deals from the government and donating millions upon millions to corrupt politicians...well, that's not in their faces on a Saturday afternoon at the Piggly-Wiggly.
Reagan's "queen" was never found, though a reasonable approximation was identified in Chicago (and prosecuted, IIRC). The typical fraud is on a much smaller scale. Your comment as to "scale" is right on.
So many more "business" kings and queens who cheat the system every day for a whole hell of a lot more money. For example, PPP Fraud was rampant with many of this ilk.
Most of the Trump suppprters I know are DELIGHTED with the notion of an expansionist 18th century-style US foreign policy and imposing our will on small neighboring countries who have no prayer of resisting our military.. smh
That's because they benefit from the draft not being around anymore, so they get to wave the red, white and blue from the safety of the trailer park. Once their eldest has to go off somewhere to face someone who'll shoot back, that'll wake them up.
Same thoughts. I worry the draft will return because even before Trump started yammering about invading other countries, the military was missing recruitment goals by tens of thousands. I don’t want my own grandsons’ lives on the line for Trump’s maniacal fever dreams.
We need to recover what "smart" means. A person who views that news conference as acceptable is not smart. Smart people expect their president to speak with a reasonable degree of clarity, responsibility, probity, and yes, even with correct grammar and sentence structures that make sense. Smart people don't think that blathering about stealing an ally's territory is a good move.
He's smart because he knows he's rambling and full of shirt, and doesn't care. The lies are for the stupid marks. He knows it's a grift and respects that.
So he's amoral, and is exactly the type of person who allowed Germany to morph into what it did in the 1930s. The fact he doesn't appreciate that the rule of law has allowed him to essentially not give a shit about what happens to people less fortunate is a big tell, too.
I agree 100%. Hitler didn't round up and klill millions without good people knowing what he was doing and agreed with him.
If you read Anne Frank, she and her family were betrayed to the Germans by a Dutch citizen. This was after D day and a short time before the war ended and Germany was clearly losing. He did it because he was just as evil as the NAZIs.
Eminent historian Timothy W. Ryback, author of "Takeover: Hitler's Final Rise to Power," posted an article on The Atlantic website this morning titled "How Hitler Dismantled a Democracy in 53 Days: He used the constitution to shatter the constitution." Yep, only 53 days. It doesn't take long. And, if history repeats itself this year, or even rhymes, it would take us to the Ides of March. Stay tuned. ...
I'm expecting the worst, Gene. If the election taught me anything, it's that many of our fellow citizens simply don't value the foundation that our country was built on. And because they don't value it, they're numb to the dangers of what happens when that foundation collapses. It's all fun and games for these people when Trump's out there making a jackhole of himself on social media or his press conferences. But because he is fundamentally and irrevocably disordered, he is unable to responsibly exercise the levers of power. We're about to get a real time experiment in what happens when a 250 year old nation collapses under the weight of its own collective apathy, arrogance, and stupidity.
If you haven't already done so, a book I'd highly recommend reading is Timothy Snyder's "On Freedom," which was published last September. It's tremendously illuminating. Sadly, because of the fanaticism and ignorance and bigotry and impulsiveness of so many of our fellow Americans (the 49.9%!) who've been conned by a hateful demagogue, we've collectively lost our way. Which brings us to where we will be after high noon on Jan. 20 – not a good place. In fact, a very bad place.
But what if he pushes us into a confrontation with our Allie’s? He’s ripping the entire democracy apart. We are not imperialists, are we? God the last ten years suck.
Joe, the way I look at what's about to happen is this is what the voters signed up for. Trump has not hidden who and what he is. He ran on a campaign of grievance, malevolence, and retribution...and won. And because the voters are dumber than a pile of dog shit, they haven't thought through the consequences of screwing our allies. That's because they don't value our allies, and they don't value the security that NATO has provided over nearly 80 years. So yes, what's about to happen will be awful. But I think it has to happen if we have any hope of smartening up.
I agree, though with one caveat. Trump did run on grievance, malevolence, and so on -- but he also ran on a pronounced isolationist platform. Though he's always wanted out of NATO, he also promised no more foreign wars, no more spending money and resources outside our borders, and focusing on "America first." He has espoused this position ever since coming down that escalator. This sudden pivot to military expansionism, attacking our allies, and seizing foreign territory by force is a repudiation of his original isolationist message. In this respect he had indeed hidden who he was up until this point. If Trump supporters had any actual sense, they should feel betrayed and blindsided by this -- but we know that their real motivation is to exalt whatever he says and policy is irrelevant.
"Voters" assume that they're exempt from the consequences of these choices...not everyone is going to escape harm, but they're certain that THEY are going to be fine. When it does bite them in the ass, they'll never make the connection and, instead, will blame others.
There's always a price to be paid, OJVV. The only variable is who pays it. When Trump pulls us out of NATO, and that action kicks off a nuclear arms race and disrupts the markets, we'll see how "real America" likes Trumpian foreign policy.
Oh, there will be a price, but considering that people have long worked/voted against their own interests, it's clear many are unable to make direct connections between their choices and the big picture of what's going on in the world. Look, Putin has been able to rally support by starting a war in Ukraine. Why the average Russian would want THIS to be the thing to define them is beyond me. I can see many in the US doing much the same.
That's true. They believe the money US spends on diplomacy and alliances should be given back to the tax payer. They also don't care if we go to war because war has been so glamorized, that as long as they are fine, they would love to watch real war on TV.
That’s why I view domestic policy confirmations (HHS, DOJ etc, maybe even FBI) as areas where Democrats should let Trump get what he wants, or at least not expend any political capital beyond a vote in the Senate to prevent it. Foreign policy confirmations, on the other hand, should be fought tooth and nail if they’re the slightest bit loony. Americans voted for this - the rest of the world didn’t.
I agree, a lot of Trump voters don’t give a hoot about Greenland. But will they sacrifice their sons and daughters over military conquest, both in Greenland and Panama?
I'm not saying that Europe needs to ship an American beating army to Greenland because they don't have one. Several thousand soldiers could be shipped in by commercial Air flights. We just need to take up a symbolic guard around the American base in Greenland and in the capital city. In other words, act as a human shield for Greenland. American volunteer civilians could also help to act as a human shield if Denmark is willing to accept their presence. If Trump is willing to kill members of NATO armies, I think that just might make an impression on the world and even some of his supporters.
I definitely think the incoming Secretary of State and head of the White House Security Council will be against this. It's a resigning affair.
I have been on Team JVL since the get-go. If anything, I am even more cynical and pessimistic WRT human nature than JVL, but then I have studied rhetoric and human behavior and history for 30+ years.
What ought to be taken seriously, too, is that Trump is a madman, a sociopath, a monster, and that our constitutional democracy is in grave peril. We'll soon find out that voting by tantrum has consequences.
Gene, tell us how you REALLY feel.
And all the Muslims in Michigan, and all those young Democrats who voted for Trump or sat out because of Gaza. Incapable of making balanced judgements.
All that's true, Gene. But I've arrived at a place where I want the voters to fully experience the consequences of their foolishness and amorality. I welcome it. You should, too.
If Democrats continue to save the voters from themselves, they will never learn.
As JVL pointed out here --
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/a-modest-proposal-let-trump-be-trump?utm_source=publication-search
-- and Nick Cataggio notes here --
https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/you-broke-it-you-bought-it/
-- it's past time that the great and good American people get *exactly* what they voted for.
That we who resisted the illogical urge to vote for DJT will also suffer, there's the rub!
But as Kristol laid out, for Trump there are no consequences, ever, no matter how outrageous Trump’s violations. And that is why we should all be more vocal about the “outlandish” idea that Trump will cancel future elections. Why would he not?
There are no consequences for Trump because the great and good American people will not hold him accountable. The takeaway from the election is the great and good American people don't give a rat's ass about democracy, freedom, and any of that stuff.
I think his voters go along with this. I made a comment to a neighbor who is smart and friendly. He was very semi dishonest in business and thinks Trump is great. These policies of bullying and greed are also what he thinks president's should do. He has no problem as long his taxes are low and he keeps his money.
A majority of the members of a yacht club we once belonged to were intelligent, successful, and Never Dem because of their hard-earned dollars being confiscated by the evil McGovernment to fund "free stuff" for crackheads and the lazy. Reagan's welfare queen exists by the thousands in their minds.
IMO (gonna take you literally here), they do exist by the thousands. And in a country of 330M people, that is an acceptable level of aid being transferred in a leaky bucket. The problems are that:
1. People have no idea of scale, so a few thousand welfare cheats seems like a massive problem to them.
2. People get fixated on what they can relate to. The 'welfare queen' buying steak when they themselves cut back grinds their gears. The billionaire getting sweetheart deals from the government and donating millions upon millions to corrupt politicians...well, that's not in their faces on a Saturday afternoon at the Piggly-Wiggly.
Reagan's "queen" was never found, though a reasonable approximation was identified in Chicago (and prosecuted, IIRC). The typical fraud is on a much smaller scale. Your comment as to "scale" is right on.
So many more "business" kings and queens who cheat the system every day for a whole hell of a lot more money. For example, PPP Fraud was rampant with many of this ilk.
Most of the Trump suppprters I know are DELIGHTED with the notion of an expansionist 18th century-style US foreign policy and imposing our will on small neighboring countries who have no prayer of resisting our military.. smh
That's because they benefit from the draft not being around anymore, so they get to wave the red, white and blue from the safety of the trailer park. Once their eldest has to go off somewhere to face someone who'll shoot back, that'll wake them up.
Same thoughts. I worry the draft will return because even before Trump started yammering about invading other countries, the military was missing recruitment goals by tens of thousands. I don’t want my own grandsons’ lives on the line for Trump’s maniacal fever dreams.
We need to recover what "smart" means. A person who views that news conference as acceptable is not smart. Smart people expect their president to speak with a reasonable degree of clarity, responsibility, probity, and yes, even with correct grammar and sentence structures that make sense. Smart people don't think that blathering about stealing an ally's territory is a good move.
He's smart because he knows he's rambling and full of shirt, and doesn't care. The lies are for the stupid marks. He knows it's a grift and respects that.
Smart people know they are smart and show it all the time, while the others just think they are because it would be nice if it were true.
So he's amoral, and is exactly the type of person who allowed Germany to morph into what it did in the 1930s. The fact he doesn't appreciate that the rule of law has allowed him to essentially not give a shit about what happens to people less fortunate is a big tell, too.
I agree 100%. Hitler didn't round up and klill millions without good people knowing what he was doing and agreed with him.
If you read Anne Frank, she and her family were betrayed to the Germans by a Dutch citizen. This was after D day and a short time before the war ended and Germany was clearly losing. He did it because he was just as evil as the NAZIs.
re "Germany ... in the 1930s":
Eminent historian Timothy W. Ryback, author of "Takeover: Hitler's Final Rise to Power," posted an article on The Atlantic website this morning titled "How Hitler Dismantled a Democracy in 53 Days: He used the constitution to shatter the constitution." Yep, only 53 days. It doesn't take long. And, if history repeats itself this year, or even rhymes, it would take us to the Ides of March. Stay tuned. ...
I'm expecting the worst, Gene. If the election taught me anything, it's that many of our fellow citizens simply don't value the foundation that our country was built on. And because they don't value it, they're numb to the dangers of what happens when that foundation collapses. It's all fun and games for these people when Trump's out there making a jackhole of himself on social media or his press conferences. But because he is fundamentally and irrevocably disordered, he is unable to responsibly exercise the levers of power. We're about to get a real time experiment in what happens when a 250 year old nation collapses under the weight of its own collective apathy, arrogance, and stupidity.
If you haven't already done so, a book I'd highly recommend reading is Timothy Snyder's "On Freedom," which was published last September. It's tremendously illuminating. Sadly, because of the fanaticism and ignorance and bigotry and impulsiveness of so many of our fellow Americans (the 49.9%!) who've been conned by a hateful demagogue, we've collectively lost our way. Which brings us to where we will be after high noon on Jan. 20 – not a good place. In fact, a very bad place.
Lincoln would surely be weeping.
But what if he pushes us into a confrontation with our Allie’s? He’s ripping the entire democracy apart. We are not imperialists, are we? God the last ten years suck.
Joe, the way I look at what's about to happen is this is what the voters signed up for. Trump has not hidden who and what he is. He ran on a campaign of grievance, malevolence, and retribution...and won. And because the voters are dumber than a pile of dog shit, they haven't thought through the consequences of screwing our allies. That's because they don't value our allies, and they don't value the security that NATO has provided over nearly 80 years. So yes, what's about to happen will be awful. But I think it has to happen if we have any hope of smartening up.
I agree, though with one caveat. Trump did run on grievance, malevolence, and so on -- but he also ran on a pronounced isolationist platform. Though he's always wanted out of NATO, he also promised no more foreign wars, no more spending money and resources outside our borders, and focusing on "America first." He has espoused this position ever since coming down that escalator. This sudden pivot to military expansionism, attacking our allies, and seizing foreign territory by force is a repudiation of his original isolationist message. In this respect he had indeed hidden who he was up until this point. If Trump supporters had any actual sense, they should feel betrayed and blindsided by this -- but we know that their real motivation is to exalt whatever he says and policy is irrelevant.
"Voters" assume that they're exempt from the consequences of these choices...not everyone is going to escape harm, but they're certain that THEY are going to be fine. When it does bite them in the ass, they'll never make the connection and, instead, will blame others.
There's always a price to be paid, OJVV. The only variable is who pays it. When Trump pulls us out of NATO, and that action kicks off a nuclear arms race and disrupts the markets, we'll see how "real America" likes Trumpian foreign policy.
Oh, there will be a price, but considering that people have long worked/voted against their own interests, it's clear many are unable to make direct connections between their choices and the big picture of what's going on in the world. Look, Putin has been able to rally support by starting a war in Ukraine. Why the average Russian would want THIS to be the thing to define them is beyond me. I can see many in the US doing much the same.
That's true. They believe the money US spends on diplomacy and alliances should be given back to the tax payer. They also don't care if we go to war because war has been so glamorized, that as long as they are fine, they would love to watch real war on TV.
I repeat my comment from yesterday: I’m Team Good and Hard.
I welcome your company, Ann.
But here it's the Greenlanders who get it good and hard, not just us.
That’s why I view domestic policy confirmations (HHS, DOJ etc, maybe even FBI) as areas where Democrats should let Trump get what he wants, or at least not expend any political capital beyond a vote in the Senate to prevent it. Foreign policy confirmations, on the other hand, should be fought tooth and nail if they’re the slightest bit loony. Americans voted for this - the rest of the world didn’t.
Good point.
I care about that. You care about that. The majority who voted for Trump don't.
I agree, a lot of Trump voters don’t give a hoot about Greenland. But will they sacrifice their sons and daughters over military conquest, both in Greenland and Panama?
I'm not saying that Europe needs to ship an American beating army to Greenland because they don't have one. Several thousand soldiers could be shipped in by commercial Air flights. We just need to take up a symbolic guard around the American base in Greenland and in the capital city. In other words, act as a human shield for Greenland. American volunteer civilians could also help to act as a human shield if Denmark is willing to accept their presence. If Trump is willing to kill members of NATO armies, I think that just might make an impression on the world and even some of his supporters.
I definitely think the incoming Secretary of State and head of the White House Security Council will be against this. It's a resigning affair.
I suspect JVL is too, but he’s not allowed to say he is because it makes Sarah mad.
I have been on Team JVL since the get-go. If anything, I am even more cynical and pessimistic WRT human nature than JVL, but then I have studied rhetoric and human behavior and history for 30+ years.
Sarah clings to the idea that people are persuadable. JVL believes people suck. :)
JVL is right.
Sarah also clings to the idea that institutions will hold when Trump cancels elections. I doubt that, given obvious recent history.
I had hope in Sarah’s view until November 5. Now I’m completely all in on JVL’s.