The american people, in full awareness of who he is, elected donald trump, so please don't tell me the problem was the dems failure to course correct: the problem is the american people.
I agree. Something is deeply wrong with this country and a huge number of the voters. And if anyone suggests a Women’s March or that we all buy a bunch of resistance gear or donate to some cause or another, I will scream. The only plan that makes sense to me at this point is to (1) spend as little money as possible — I’m talking extreme frugality — and (2) make sure that as little as possible of the money you do spend goes to people or businesses who voted for or support Trump and fascism.
Something is also deeply, deeply wrong with Trump. The guy can't speak a full sentence. He swayed to music for 39 minutes straight at an event. He simulated two sex acts at a rally.
He won't be president the full 4 years; that's my prediction.
I finally cancelled Amazon Prime this morning. I will not be spending unnecessary money in this economy. Only exception will be for my Bulwark subscription :) I think things like large scale consumer strikes and labor strikes are really the only forms of protest that actually work.
It should not be necessary to point out that not all of the American people are the problem, only those who chose him, which, admittedly, is a majority of the American people, but I still have an American passport and don't feel that I am in the least bit part of the "problem". And I bet you don't either, Howard.
We allowed this cancer to exist and grow in our country. It was a problem with our culture, and all of us were part of that culture. We participated in a political process that nurtured this hate. We eagerly adopted and used the social media that propagated that hate.
Individually, we may not have promoted the hatefulness in these ways, but we were enablers. And, worst of all, if we inaugurate Trump in accordance with our dying Constitution, without trying to prevent it, we will share in the collective guilt for all the crimes he will commit.
"without trying to prevent it..." What is that supposed to mean? We tried to prevent it with our posts and campaigns and votes. January 6th? Not on your life. Unless we have proof that the election was fraudulent, and I have not heard anyone seriously contend that, he is the lawfully elected President, much as it pains me to write that. Those who voted FOR him share in the collective guilt for all the crimes he will commit (and get away with because: Immunity gratis of "his" Supreme Court" , thanks to Mitch.)
If you acknowledge him as president and approve of his inauguration, then you accept him. You are OK with what he has said and done, and what he has said he will do. You are OK with the lack of accountability for crimes for which he was tried and convicted in a court of law, and the crimes for which he will never be tried. You are OK with his being a foreign agent and with his plotting to overthrow the government with a violent coup.
After ALL that, you still acknowledge his right to be president under the law, and you accept the unconsitutional powers he's be wrongly granted by the corrupt and illegitimate Supreme Court.
You tried to stop him, within the system, with "protests and campaigns and votes." Protests and campaigns and votes? Is that a joke?
The fact is, you never repudiated him or really tried to stop him. You accept him. You enable him. Soon your taxes will support his bank account and his twisted agenda. YOU, sir, are guilty. So am I. And so are we all.
I resent thoroughly your insulting comments about a person you do not know nor have ever met. Acknowledging facts and law does not mean approval of the object, just of the process, which is what law-abiding people do. And, pray tell, what did you do in the past to stop him? More to your point and to your questions, what do you intend to do, other than write blame-casting posts, to "not accept" him?
Are you agreeing with me that you are not part of the problem? Great, unless that means that you are not American. But assuming you are, you are also included in your initial condemnation of "the american people". My point was only to try to keep over-generalizations out of sensible arguments.
dear god: i was using a collective noun to indicate the vote - not anything else - determined the outcome. we're now up to 196 people understood that perfectly well, but i guess there's a hyper literalist in every crowd.
That's because a lot of us Democrats overcompensate with guilt. I however do not feel guilt for a country that does nothing but watch reality TV, sports and fox news. I was one of the electrical engineering students that used the internet in 1988 and wish the government had kept control of it for the good of doing research. This country does not hold my values and I don't think it ever did. It was founded on genocide by a bunch of disgruntled ppl that England didn't want.
And I was only asking for more specific use of the English language. No need to get hyped up, call for divine help, and accuse others of the same failing.
my use of the english language was perfectly clear to what is now 198 people.
nor am i "hyped up" (exasperated, yes, but not hyped up), and the only thing i accused you of is hyper literalism, which is the exact opposite of what you said i did.
Well it’s not including me because I’m Canadian. But I’m of American descent with ancestors who fought in the revolution. So I feel sorry and sad that this is what has become of America . Imagine, now I have more rights than my American cousins ( who probably mostly voted against their rights yesterday) .
Today I am thinking about how Canada can keep a small fire burning for liberal democracy in North America and the world in the face of this terrible outcome. I literally am sick about it in my bones.
We don’t have the luxury of blaming America even though it’s oh so tempting. The Dems lost this election because Hispanic voters turned toward Trump. and they did so, despite his racism, because the Dems gave them something like liked less-open borders and in your face liberal platitudes-like the ridiculous term Latin-x which is a made up nonsensical term. The Dems also lost this election when Biden went back on his word to be a bridge to a new generation of leadership. I am not going to blame Kamala. She ran a fine campaign. No, it’s Joe and his infamous Irish pride that did us in
I’ve heard so many times “Latin-x is to blame” , which is crap. The five minutes that was even a thing, it was always on the fringes. Does anyone care to think maybe that the Latino Americans are shitty voters as well? Why are they kicking the ladder out from under them and not caring about liberal democratic norms- truth hurts. Americans who no longer put liberal democratic norms at the top are just shitty people and are turning our once great country that my grandparents and great grandparents fought for into dust.
Biden should have said in the beginning he wasn't going to run for second term and there would have been a primary. When they announced Harris, I was so angry because I knew, absolutely knew she would not win. But I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Although it may not have mattered. The people want what they want. Our mistake was seeing all the high voter turn out, we thought they were turning out for Harris. No they turned out for Trump. The pollsters were wrong.
This assumes half the electorate hasn't been drinking Trump's koolaid since 2015. The male Hispanic vote has a lot of misogyny in it,band the Cuban Venezuelan vote is mind numbing. I guess a rightwing fascist is more palatable than a leftist dictator....which says the idea of protecting a liberal democracy was a non starter.
I don’t think you can blame Joe either . The American people voted for Trump despite everything. Once I saw that Trump was getting more powerful and popular after getting criminal charges.. after Jan 6, after everything he publicly said … after Dobbs . … project 2025 …
Disinformation you can blame too and embrace of conspiracy theories. But these are from many sources . I know people try to blame “the media” but the media isn’t a coordinated organization.. again many people many sources . And mainstream media isn’t believed anymore anyway.
So it is what it is. But it’s dark . And this is America.
Media is a huge problem because it appears to be many and varied - but in the past few years, they are controlled by right wing corporations like Sinclair Broadcasting. Their coverage is controlled by hidden groups that are buying them up. It’s like the food industry that cuts out family farms and small local producers. I had a great client, a family owned beef packer, the largest in Wisconsin. They were bought out by Beatrice Foods, who cut their market by cutting their prices, then bought it for Pennie’s on the dollar. The owners did well financially, but quality, safety and accountability suffered. Then Beatrice sold the group that had blended in with the meat packing biz to Cargil, the behemoth. I used to produce my original client’s production and safety manuals, absolutely scientific and top of the safety charts. Because of their detailed manuals, I won’t ever feed my dogs raw meat. There are parasites that know one knows about that can kill, smaller animals in particular. A friend wjj he I breeds Dodd almost lost a gorgeous dog - and went into debt to save him - from a parasite that ran through his body and brain leaving partial paralysis and cognitive impairment (yes, a thing in dogs) as well as liver and kidney damage. Will Cargill warn people about these risks? Nah. Now my friend gives all her puppy families a supply of SAFE foods a n d discourages raw feeding.
I disagree. I’m as old as dirt, this is F’ING NOT the fault of the Dem party. This is almost 100% media’s fault. The foundation of a solid electorate is Education, and the media played into the demonization of liberal-small l public education. It started when Reagan unleashed the most destructive Evangelical movements. That began the inner weaknesses of the Republican Party when it gave up on governing and became obstructionist common scolds to win elections. Empty shirts. I saw this first hand in Wisconsin with faux leaders like Ryan, Priebus and Scott Walker. They sold their souls for minority rule long before Trump.
Yes, Charlotte, I agree and I was there for the Walker, Ryan, Priebus experiment foisted on Wisconsin by Republicans. That they have been successful beyond their wildest dreams created openings for other states like Arizona, where I live now.
Absolutely!! It still burns them, made obvious by the rejection of the most qualified candidate in favor of a maniacal fool wannabe dictator. In particular, the rejection of this candidate as a biracial woman. I did have hope yesterday, but now I have only venom.
I was just talking to my neighbor, an enforcement and inspection agent for WI DNR and Federal EPA. He is so angry - Scott Walker ruined his enforcement power against the most egregious polluters in the country by cutting out all scientists from the field and forcing every DOJ suit to go through the toothless wonders in the R-led spending committees in Congress. He’s going to retire next year, early
This is true. I live in WI. Education plays a big part also. We have a country full of stupid ppl. Social media has added to this with the onset on quick gratification in whatever one may want. Got to remember ppl don't know where they are without GPS. How can they possibly know about a strong economy and how it comes about. America will get what it deserves.
Funny thing, I recently posted tongue in cheek that I was armed and ready to join the army of the ‘enemy within’. Long handled paintbrushes, hiking poles and maps and compass, the latter indecipherable by your average cretinous misogynist MAGAt.
The U.S. structure allowed hostile propaganda networks to flourish. I’ve suspected for a while now that our devotion to an extreme version of free speech would end our freedoms. Why else would SCOTUS declare money is speech, and corporations are people? The right wingers knew. They understood how to use “freedom” to end freedom.
Yes unlimited money was a problem, but it wasn't just the Fox News propaganda because young men black, white and Hispanic who are not plugged into Fox News, were eager to vote for Trump. This cohort usually does not vote in great numbers.
The Republican Party actively and overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Biden should have either not run for a second turn or stayed in the race. It probably still would have been a loss but I cannot discount the fact that America is not ready for a female commander in chief
I am convinced that our Nation will never be ready for a female president. As the song "Its a Man's, Man's, Man's World" blared loudly as Trump lumbered onto a recent rally stage, it will, I think, always be that way in America when it comes to the Oval Office. Trump has also provided permission for abusing women with impunity. Sadly, I bemoan our naive, short sighted electorate and the potential permission it has given to young men and boys:
I blame Biden for not declaring he’d be a 1 term president from jump street. Those around him knew of his decline and decided that would be something they could hide because he could still govern. What he couldn’t do was campaign and that’s what you have to do to win. We were denied a chance to pick a democratic candidate earlier in the process. I admire how well Kamala campaigned. But the things she needed to overcome required a longer time to do so. But, she may not have even been the candidate Biden had always said he’d leave after one term. This party is just so shortsighted.
Generally agree, but I don’t blame Biden. Harris was a great candidate. Biden weakened hr, maybe, a bit, but that didn’t take away her competence, personal appeal, solid background in Law Enforcement for f’s sake.
Maybe the Q we should be asking ourselves is WHY they hate us so much??? It's easier to just blame the voter but that's just the kind of disconnected condescention that got us here.
I don't have any doubt why they hate us: they live in a propaganda bubble.
And i'm not condescending: they made an adult choice to vote for trump and i am making an adult choice to take them at their word that they want what he stands for.
It would be condescending to treat them like children who don’t understand exactly what they voted for. They may be propagandized and in a media bubble, but they know about January 6, and they know he grabs women by the pussy and doesn’t even wait. That is all one needs to know.
The american people, in full awareness of who he is, elected donald trump, so please don't tell me the problem was the dems failure to course correct: the problem is the american people.
I agree. Something is deeply wrong with this country and a huge number of the voters. And if anyone suggests a Women’s March or that we all buy a bunch of resistance gear or donate to some cause or another, I will scream. The only plan that makes sense to me at this point is to (1) spend as little money as possible — I’m talking extreme frugality — and (2) make sure that as little as possible of the money you do spend goes to people or businesses who voted for or support Trump and fascism.
Something is also deeply, deeply wrong with Trump. The guy can't speak a full sentence. He swayed to music for 39 minutes straight at an event. He simulated two sex acts at a rally.
He won't be president the full 4 years; that's my prediction.
I don't want to see his face nor hear his voice. Cancelling my cable TV subscription. 💔
I finally cancelled Amazon Prime this morning. I will not be spending unnecessary money in this economy. Only exception will be for my Bulwark subscription :) I think things like large scale consumer strikes and labor strikes are really the only forms of protest that actually work.
And boycotts. I refuse to visit & spend money in any state with an abortion ban.
It should not be necessary to point out that not all of the American people are the problem, only those who chose him, which, admittedly, is a majority of the American people, but I still have an American passport and don't feel that I am in the least bit part of the "problem". And I bet you don't either, Howard.
We allowed this cancer to exist and grow in our country. It was a problem with our culture, and all of us were part of that culture. We participated in a political process that nurtured this hate. We eagerly adopted and used the social media that propagated that hate.
Individually, we may not have promoted the hatefulness in these ways, but we were enablers. And, worst of all, if we inaugurate Trump in accordance with our dying Constitution, without trying to prevent it, we will share in the collective guilt for all the crimes he will commit.
"without trying to prevent it..." What is that supposed to mean? We tried to prevent it with our posts and campaigns and votes. January 6th? Not on your life. Unless we have proof that the election was fraudulent, and I have not heard anyone seriously contend that, he is the lawfully elected President, much as it pains me to write that. Those who voted FOR him share in the collective guilt for all the crimes he will commit (and get away with because: Immunity gratis of "his" Supreme Court" , thanks to Mitch.)
If you acknowledge him as president and approve of his inauguration, then you accept him. You are OK with what he has said and done, and what he has said he will do. You are OK with the lack of accountability for crimes for which he was tried and convicted in a court of law, and the crimes for which he will never be tried. You are OK with his being a foreign agent and with his plotting to overthrow the government with a violent coup.
After ALL that, you still acknowledge his right to be president under the law, and you accept the unconsitutional powers he's be wrongly granted by the corrupt and illegitimate Supreme Court.
You tried to stop him, within the system, with "protests and campaigns and votes." Protests and campaigns and votes? Is that a joke?
The fact is, you never repudiated him or really tried to stop him. You accept him. You enable him. Soon your taxes will support his bank account and his twisted agenda. YOU, sir, are guilty. So am I. And so are we all.
I resent thoroughly your insulting comments about a person you do not know nor have ever met. Acknowledging facts and law does not mean approval of the object, just of the process, which is what law-abiding people do. And, pray tell, what did you do in the past to stop him? More to your point and to your questions, what do you intend to do, other than write blame-casting posts, to "not accept" him?
179 people had no trouble understanding me.
Are you agreeing with me that you are not part of the problem? Great, unless that means that you are not American. But assuming you are, you are also included in your initial condemnation of "the american people". My point was only to try to keep over-generalizations out of sensible arguments.
dear god: i was using a collective noun to indicate the vote - not anything else - determined the outcome. we're now up to 196 people understood that perfectly well, but i guess there's a hyper literalist in every crowd.
That's because a lot of us Democrats overcompensate with guilt. I however do not feel guilt for a country that does nothing but watch reality TV, sports and fox news. I was one of the electrical engineering students that used the internet in 1988 and wish the government had kept control of it for the good of doing research. This country does not hold my values and I don't think it ever did. It was founded on genocide by a bunch of disgruntled ppl that England didn't want.
And I was only asking for more specific use of the English language. No need to get hyped up, call for divine help, and accuse others of the same failing.
my use of the english language was perfectly clear to what is now 198 people.
nor am i "hyped up" (exasperated, yes, but not hyped up), and the only thing i accused you of is hyper literalism, which is the exact opposite of what you said i did.
they like us to keep it clean here, so i'm done.
The American people is not 'those people who voted for Trump' it is all of us.
Well it’s not including me because I’m Canadian. But I’m of American descent with ancestors who fought in the revolution. So I feel sorry and sad that this is what has become of America . Imagine, now I have more rights than my American cousins ( who probably mostly voted against their rights yesterday) .
Today I am thinking about how Canada can keep a small fire burning for liberal democracy in North America and the world in the face of this terrible outcome. I literally am sick about it in my bones.
Well, the American people have asked for this. And Trump and his next administration, are going to give it to them good and hard.
Appropriate terminology.
Though I would emphasize the hard over the good.
We don’t have the luxury of blaming America even though it’s oh so tempting. The Dems lost this election because Hispanic voters turned toward Trump. and they did so, despite his racism, because the Dems gave them something like liked less-open borders and in your face liberal platitudes-like the ridiculous term Latin-x which is a made up nonsensical term. The Dems also lost this election when Biden went back on his word to be a bridge to a new generation of leadership. I am not going to blame Kamala. She ran a fine campaign. No, it’s Joe and his infamous Irish pride that did us in
I’ve heard so many times “Latin-x is to blame” , which is crap. The five minutes that was even a thing, it was always on the fringes. Does anyone care to think maybe that the Latino Americans are shitty voters as well? Why are they kicking the ladder out from under them and not caring about liberal democratic norms- truth hurts. Americans who no longer put liberal democratic norms at the top are just shitty people and are turning our once great country that my grandparents and great grandparents fought for into dust.
Biden should have said in the beginning he wasn't going to run for second term and there would have been a primary. When they announced Harris, I was so angry because I knew, absolutely knew she would not win. But I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Although it may not have mattered. The people want what they want. Our mistake was seeing all the high voter turn out, we thought they were turning out for Harris. No they turned out for Trump. The pollsters were wrong.
This assumes half the electorate hasn't been drinking Trump's koolaid since 2015. The male Hispanic vote has a lot of misogyny in it,band the Cuban Venezuelan vote is mind numbing. I guess a rightwing fascist is more palatable than a leftist dictator....which says the idea of protecting a liberal democracy was a non starter.
I don’t think you can blame Joe either . The American people voted for Trump despite everything. Once I saw that Trump was getting more powerful and popular after getting criminal charges.. after Jan 6, after everything he publicly said … after Dobbs . … project 2025 …
Disinformation you can blame too and embrace of conspiracy theories. But these are from many sources . I know people try to blame “the media” but the media isn’t a coordinated organization.. again many people many sources . And mainstream media isn’t believed anymore anyway.
So it is what it is. But it’s dark . And this is America.
Media is a huge problem because it appears to be many and varied - but in the past few years, they are controlled by right wing corporations like Sinclair Broadcasting. Their coverage is controlled by hidden groups that are buying them up. It’s like the food industry that cuts out family farms and small local producers. I had a great client, a family owned beef packer, the largest in Wisconsin. They were bought out by Beatrice Foods, who cut their market by cutting their prices, then bought it for Pennie’s on the dollar. The owners did well financially, but quality, safety and accountability suffered. Then Beatrice sold the group that had blended in with the meat packing biz to Cargil, the behemoth. I used to produce my original client’s production and safety manuals, absolutely scientific and top of the safety charts. Because of their detailed manuals, I won’t ever feed my dogs raw meat. There are parasites that know one knows about that can kill, smaller animals in particular. A friend wjj he I breeds Dodd almost lost a gorgeous dog - and went into debt to save him - from a parasite that ran through his body and brain leaving partial paralysis and cognitive impairment (yes, a thing in dogs) as well as liver and kidney damage. Will Cargill warn people about these risks? Nah. Now my friend gives all her puppy families a supply of SAFE foods a n d discourages raw feeding.
This is who are country is. And the oligarchs have won all over the world. other countries are electing the far right too.
I disagree. I’m as old as dirt, this is F’ING NOT the fault of the Dem party. This is almost 100% media’s fault. The foundation of a solid electorate is Education, and the media played into the demonization of liberal-small l public education. It started when Reagan unleashed the most destructive Evangelical movements. That began the inner weaknesses of the Republican Party when it gave up on governing and became obstructionist common scolds to win elections. Empty shirts. I saw this first hand in Wisconsin with faux leaders like Ryan, Priebus and Scott Walker. They sold their souls for minority rule long before Trump.
Yes, Charlotte, I agree and I was there for the Walker, Ryan, Priebus experiment foisted on Wisconsin by Republicans. That they have been successful beyond their wildest dreams created openings for other states like Arizona, where I live now.
I think it was punishment for electing Obama for two terms. We thought that he was a turning point. But what he did was energize the far right.
A friend mine who teaches in a community college said all the young men, white, black and Hispanic were eager to vote for Trump.
Absolutely!! It still burns them, made obvious by the rejection of the most qualified candidate in favor of a maniacal fool wannabe dictator. In particular, the rejection of this candidate as a biracial woman. I did have hope yesterday, but now I have only venom.
I was just talking to my neighbor, an enforcement and inspection agent for WI DNR and Federal EPA. He is so angry - Scott Walker ruined his enforcement power against the most egregious polluters in the country by cutting out all scientists from the field and forcing every DOJ suit to go through the toothless wonders in the R-led spending committees in Congress. He’s going to retire next year, early
This is true. I live in WI. Education plays a big part also. We have a country full of stupid ppl. Social media has added to this with the onset on quick gratification in whatever one may want. Got to remember ppl don't know where they are without GPS. How can they possibly know about a strong economy and how it comes about. America will get what it deserves.
Funny thing, I recently posted tongue in cheek that I was armed and ready to join the army of the ‘enemy within’. Long handled paintbrushes, hiking poles and maps and compass, the latter indecipherable by your average cretinous misogynist MAGAt.
BTW, Melody, I’m sure we have met IRL. Springers? Mine are PBGVs, we must have been at the same events! Good to see you here. ❤️
You too! Take care!
The U.S. structure allowed hostile propaganda networks to flourish. I’ve suspected for a while now that our devotion to an extreme version of free speech would end our freedoms. Why else would SCOTUS declare money is speech, and corporations are people? The right wingers knew. They understood how to use “freedom” to end freedom.
Yes unlimited money was a problem, but it wasn't just the Fox News propaganda because young men black, white and Hispanic who are not plugged into Fox News, were eager to vote for Trump. This cohort usually does not vote in great numbers.
The Republican Party actively and overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Biden should have either not run for a second turn or stayed in the race. It probably still would have been a loss but I cannot discount the fact that America is not ready for a female commander in chief
I am convinced that our Nation will never be ready for a female president. As the song "Its a Man's, Man's, Man's World" blared loudly as Trump lumbered onto a recent rally stage, it will, I think, always be that way in America when it comes to the Oval Office. Trump has also provided permission for abusing women with impunity. Sadly, I bemoan our naive, short sighted electorate and the potential permission it has given to young men and boys:
Bully and abuse,
No remorse necessary,
For Trump and for males!
I blame Biden for not declaring he’d be a 1 term president from jump street. Those around him knew of his decline and decided that would be something they could hide because he could still govern. What he couldn’t do was campaign and that’s what you have to do to win. We were denied a chance to pick a democratic candidate earlier in the process. I admire how well Kamala campaigned. But the things she needed to overcome required a longer time to do so. But, she may not have even been the candidate Biden had always said he’d leave after one term. This party is just so shortsighted.
Generally agree, but I don’t blame Biden. Harris was a great candidate. Biden weakened hr, maybe, a bit, but that didn’t take away her competence, personal appeal, solid background in Law Enforcement for f’s sake.
It is not a luxury, it is a simple fact that any analysis of where we go from here needs to start with: there is a voting majority for fascism.
This is the way.
Maybe the Q we should be asking ourselves is WHY they hate us so much??? It's easier to just blame the voter but that's just the kind of disconnected condescention that got us here.
Any insight? I badly need some.
I don't have any doubt why they hate us: they live in a propaganda bubble.
And i'm not condescending: they made an adult choice to vote for trump and i am making an adult choice to take them at their word that they want what he stands for.
So i despise them, yes, but not condescend.
The truth is not hard to find. Ignorance is willful.
Agree, Howard.
It would be condescending to treat them like children who don’t understand exactly what they voted for. They may be propagandized and in a media bubble, but they know about January 6, and they know he grabs women by the pussy and doesn’t even wait. That is all one needs to know.
And they can make the adult choice not to choose propaganda, but they're interested in confirmation over truth.
Unfortunately, thhis seems to me to be the credited response.