Charlie writes: "I think it’s safe to say that the politics in Wisconsin right now are… complicated."
Hard disagree. With the reporting that you and others have done, the politics in Wisconsin seem incredibly simple to me. One side has gone off the deep end of completely being done with the concept of majority rule democracy. Unless the o…
Charlie writes: "I think it’s safe to say that the politics in Wisconsin right now are… complicated."
Hard disagree. With the reporting that you and others have done, the politics in Wisconsin seem incredibly simple to me. One side has gone off the deep end of completely being done with the concept of majority rule democracy. Unless the other side is cozying up to dictators, banning books, and attacking minority populations, it seems pretty clear and simple to me.
I don’t regret voting for Obama whatsoever, but I regret some of the things I said and felt about Mitt Romney. When it counted, his character showed itself.
Not sure how you mean this in regard to what I wrote. The solution to Wisconsin's problems might not be simple, and while I typically really like Mencken's quote, I do see the situation as fairly simple. The Wisconsin GOP has gone off the rails and is very much in non-democratic territory.
And he is now working to oppose those people. Must everyone who was ever wrong and confessed it wear a hair shirt or be shunned for the rest of their lives? The measure you use against others will be used on you. Forgive and you will be forgiven. There’s a lot of sayings like that. “Let it go”, as they say in “Frozen”.
I spent so many years tearing my hair out listening to Charlie on talk radio, and still do sometimes when reading his newsletters, but he has come over from the dark side. I don't see the point of dwelling in the past.
I get wanting a straight, clear apology. I think that’s what Charlie wants from the people who forced him to leave his party, stole his livelihood, ended friendships with him, and betrayed the ideals he thought they both shared. That comes through every time there’s a newsletter piece that ends with “if only they’d been warned,” or “if only someone had told them.”
When the job is complete and not selective. Charlie is doing a good job at the 30,000-foot national level in calling out GOP bad actors and bad actions. But we are still waiting for him at ground level here in WI to take a more forceful, open stand against the GOP and what it has done and actively work to make his voice of warning more prominent, especially in places such as the WOW (Waukesha-Ozaukee-Washington) counties that are strong bases of GOP support. Yes, he does address some of our issues here, in this forum, and it is welcome. But we need his voice in trying to reach his former radio audience more directly and saying that if he was wrong about the GOP and certain local members of the tribe then, maybe they need to rethink their positions and support now. They do not see him on MSNBC or read him in The Bulwark. The battle must be taken to them more directly and personally.
I genuinely do not know the answer to this, and you native Badgers might... but Charlie *lost* his radio show b/c he was critical of Trump and the GOP. WI Republicans don’t want to give him a platform to speak up. What, exactly, and this is my question to you, do you want him to do?
That's not really for me to say, as I don't know what options and outlets are available to him and I have no authority in the matter. But in discussion with others here, the common theme that we return to with some regularity is that if people used their influence to sway opinion and were instrumental in carrying water for those who have done so much damage here, there should a commensurate response in reverse, acknowledging that mistake and using it as a springboard to effect change. Maybe I've missed something, but for all the words that have been expressed on the topic, I don't recall ever hearing something as simple as "I was wrong about Scott Walker," or "I trusted Robin Vos, and he failed that test," and other such things that, brief and to the point, do not mince words or leave wiggle room about it. Unless he actually is not there. At any rate that is my answer to your question. Others have their own position on it, but I'm also not the only one who feels the way that I do.
Maybe he could be more visible in Wisconsin. I haven't followed the local Sunday morning shows, so I don't know whether he has made appearances there. It could be helpful if he did.
But I think he has explicitly said he regrets having supported Walker, RonJon, and others.
That's true, but he's also not a fulsome voice for Democrats either. I think he and others are still Republicans, but can't let the country be lost. That used to be a common motivation for both parties whether they won or lost.
Given the outsize influence Charlie has wielded over WI politics I think we need more from him now than articles and comments (however right on) in The Bulwark. What is he doing, now, in WI? Is he publicly rebuking his old friends like Vos, Walker and Ryan? Is he telling everyone who will listen that this is fascism, plain and simple? I’m certainly not getting that impression from the WI commenters here. So yes, well done Charlie for coming to your senses, but there’s a whole bunch left to repair before the cake gets cut.
Wisconsin commenter here. Charlie has made it pretty clear where he stands. And yes he has rebuked Vos, Walker, Ryan, Gabelman, RonJon and others. I'm not sure what else one could expect from him.
Right now democracy needs all the help it can get. All that matters is which side are you on - democracy or the fascist crazies? When democracy is once again secured in America we can go back to nuance. Right now and for the next 14 months, it’s will
Well, he seems to be on permanent panel rotation on MSNBC whacking Republicans over the head as anti-democratic every chance he gets. Plus the Bulwark, plus essays elsewhere. He grilled Paul Ryan in Milwaukee a few months ago in a public forum. I’m not sure what more he’s supposed to do.
Grilled? Are you sure? Gently questioned would be more like it. And MSNBC is not a big draw for R’s that I’m aware of. I would like him to be using whatever influence he has left in WI to stop his friends from descending into full blown fascism (although I think that ship may have already sailed).
Several years ago I would have held something up to ward off Charlie as one would a vampire. At some point, I will likely vehemently disagree with him and others on Bulwark. But right now, there is really only one issue: how do we save our democracy? And we are on the same side with that.
Exactly. I look forward to the day that this is all behind us and I can just disagree with him and others on the staff over policy issues. But in the meantime we are on the same side.
Jesus taught us that if another person sins, we should rebuke them; if they repent, we should forgive them. He also told us often that if we want our sins to be forgiven, we should forgive others their sins.
Charlie was wrong, wrong, wrong in some of the things and people he believed and supported in the past. He seems to have admitted that he was wrong and repented of it. He is also working very hard to get out the word now about the truth. I think we should forgive him.
As an atheist, I agree. What's crucial about forgiveness for me is that, more than an apology, it's by someone's subsequent actions that I determine the sincerity of their repentance. Charlie has been actively working against the people he used to work with for years now. The Bulwark is on the front lines of this battle. His past life in GOP politics and punditry is water under the bridge for me. Also, if we make the bar for forgiveness so high, we risk that well-intentioned-but-late-to-the-party people may hesitate to come clean for fear of being berated and shunned nonetheless. We need to give people a place to land if we want them to climb over the wall to join our side.
Charlie writes: "I think it’s safe to say that the politics in Wisconsin right now are… complicated."
Hard disagree. With the reporting that you and others have done, the politics in Wisconsin seem incredibly simple to me. One side has gone off the deep end of completely being done with the concept of majority rule democracy. Unless the other side is cozying up to dictators, banning books, and attacking minority populations, it seems pretty clear and simple to me.
I know what you're saying and I agree.
But I think what Charlie was referring to is the situation the Wisconsin Republican party is finding itself in.
Just yesterday, Mitt Romney nailed it paraphrasing Mencken: To each problem, there's a solution that is simple, clear and wrong.
I don’t regret voting for Obama whatsoever, but I regret some of the things I said and felt about Mitt Romney. When it counted, his character showed itself.
Not sure how you mean this in regard to what I wrote. The solution to Wisconsin's problems might not be simple, and while I typically really like Mencken's quote, I do see the situation as fairly simple. The Wisconsin GOP has gone off the rails and is very much in non-democratic territory.
And just to point out that most of those involved are people Charlie has supported and aided over the years.
And he is now working to oppose those people. Must everyone who was ever wrong and confessed it wear a hair shirt or be shunned for the rest of their lives? The measure you use against others will be used on you. Forgive and you will be forgiven. There’s a lot of sayings like that. “Let it go”, as they say in “Frozen”.
Yep. I said it before. There's no need for them to wear sack cloth and ashes. We need all the allies we can get now.
We can go back to fighting if and when we get through this.
Genuine question: at what point do we forgive people who admit they made mistakes and take responsibility for them?
I spent so many years tearing my hair out listening to Charlie on talk radio, and still do sometimes when reading his newsletters, but he has come over from the dark side. I don't see the point of dwelling in the past.
I get wanting a straight, clear apology. I think that’s what Charlie wants from the people who forced him to leave his party, stole his livelihood, ended friendships with him, and betrayed the ideals he thought they both shared. That comes through every time there’s a newsletter piece that ends with “if only they’d been warned,” or “if only someone had told them.”
When the job is complete and not selective. Charlie is doing a good job at the 30,000-foot national level in calling out GOP bad actors and bad actions. But we are still waiting for him at ground level here in WI to take a more forceful, open stand against the GOP and what it has done and actively work to make his voice of warning more prominent, especially in places such as the WOW (Waukesha-Ozaukee-Washington) counties that are strong bases of GOP support. Yes, he does address some of our issues here, in this forum, and it is welcome. But we need his voice in trying to reach his former radio audience more directly and saying that if he was wrong about the GOP and certain local members of the tribe then, maybe they need to rethink their positions and support now. They do not see him on MSNBC or read him in The Bulwark. The battle must be taken to them more directly and personally.
I genuinely do not know the answer to this, and you native Badgers might... but Charlie *lost* his radio show b/c he was critical of Trump and the GOP. WI Republicans don’t want to give him a platform to speak up. What, exactly, and this is my question to you, do you want him to do?
That's not really for me to say, as I don't know what options and outlets are available to him and I have no authority in the matter. But in discussion with others here, the common theme that we return to with some regularity is that if people used their influence to sway opinion and were instrumental in carrying water for those who have done so much damage here, there should a commensurate response in reverse, acknowledging that mistake and using it as a springboard to effect change. Maybe I've missed something, but for all the words that have been expressed on the topic, I don't recall ever hearing something as simple as "I was wrong about Scott Walker," or "I trusted Robin Vos, and he failed that test," and other such things that, brief and to the point, do not mince words or leave wiggle room about it. Unless he actually is not there. At any rate that is my answer to your question. Others have their own position on it, but I'm also not the only one who feels the way that I do.
Maybe he could be more visible in Wisconsin. I haven't followed the local Sunday morning shows, so I don't know whether he has made appearances there. It could be helpful if he did.
But I think he has explicitly said he regrets having supported Walker, RonJon, and others.
That's true, but he's also not a fulsome voice for Democrats either. I think he and others are still Republicans, but can't let the country be lost. That used to be a common motivation for both parties whether they won or lost.
He's never-Trump but he's still a conservative. I don't think he has any fondness for the Democratic party.
That is my impression too.
Given the outsize influence Charlie has wielded over WI politics I think we need more from him now than articles and comments (however right on) in The Bulwark. What is he doing, now, in WI? Is he publicly rebuking his old friends like Vos, Walker and Ryan? Is he telling everyone who will listen that this is fascism, plain and simple? I’m certainly not getting that impression from the WI commenters here. So yes, well done Charlie for coming to your senses, but there’s a whole bunch left to repair before the cake gets cut.
Wisconsin commenter here. Charlie has made it pretty clear where he stands. And yes he has rebuked Vos, Walker, Ryan, Gabelman, RonJon and others. I'm not sure what else one could expect from him.
Right now democracy needs all the help it can get. All that matters is which side are you on - democracy or the fascist crazies? When democracy is once again secured in America we can go back to nuance. Right now and for the next 14 months, it’s will
You vote D or will you vote R? That’s it.
Well, he seems to be on permanent panel rotation on MSNBC whacking Republicans over the head as anti-democratic every chance he gets. Plus the Bulwark, plus essays elsewhere. He grilled Paul Ryan in Milwaukee a few months ago in a public forum. I’m not sure what more he’s supposed to do.
Grilled? Are you sure? Gently questioned would be more like it. And MSNBC is not a big draw for R’s that I’m aware of. I would like him to be using whatever influence he has left in WI to stop his friends from descending into full blown fascism (although I think that ship may have already sailed).
How do you know he’s not?
Several years ago I would have held something up to ward off Charlie as one would a vampire. At some point, I will likely vehemently disagree with him and others on Bulwark. But right now, there is really only one issue: how do we save our democracy? And we are on the same side with that.
Exactly. I look forward to the day that this is all behind us and I can just disagree with him and others on the staff over policy issues. But in the meantime we are on the same side.
Jesus taught us that if another person sins, we should rebuke them; if they repent, we should forgive them. He also told us often that if we want our sins to be forgiven, we should forgive others their sins.
Charlie was wrong, wrong, wrong in some of the things and people he believed and supported in the past. He seems to have admitted that he was wrong and repented of it. He is also working very hard to get out the word now about the truth. I think we should forgive him.
He and his paper saved my sanity during certain periods.
As an atheist, I agree. What's crucial about forgiveness for me is that, more than an apology, it's by someone's subsequent actions that I determine the sincerity of their repentance. Charlie has been actively working against the people he used to work with for years now. The Bulwark is on the front lines of this battle. His past life in GOP politics and punditry is water under the bridge for me. Also, if we make the bar for forgiveness so high, we risk that well-intentioned-but-late-to-the-party people may hesitate to come clean for fear of being berated and shunned nonetheless. We need to give people a place to land if we want them to climb over the wall to join our side.
He wrote a whole book about it.
Well said!