Bonus: No B.S—Live From Seattle

Hey, everyone. It’s JVL and Tim. Welcome to the next level. Minus Sarah, but she will be here, but she won’t be here. She’s not here, but she’s on the recording.

It’s Tim. So Tarek. She’s here in a sense, Tarek. She’s here in a sense. What we’re gonna share with you guys today is some highlights from our Seattle show.

We put out the whole Los Angeles show, and we’re gonna put out a little bit of Seattle show. Tim, what’d you think? Was it was your Seattle experience? Magical?

The Emerald City. I was so happy to be there. I don’t really understand why people live in Seattle still. It it is pretty gloomy and dreary. But they the people there seem to love it.

You know, so this is what makes up the kind of whole human comedy. You know, everybody ever to each their own. Right? And I had a lovely evening in Seattle. Dan, as you will hear, kinda gives me the business a little bit, but I can I’m a big boy.

I can take it. And, you know, we kind of just went back and forth about our our art, our his our frenemy history. And it was then so great to meet people. The Seattle audience afterwards, that was really so fulfilling. And after we spent about an hour just kinda hanging out, rebidding together afterwards, I drag

maybe a

half dozen people to the gay bar including a few unsuspecting straits who I just think had a experience that they will really remember. So that that’s just a little bonus. That’s what that’s the kind of service that we’re provide.

It here, if they were

curious as to what I missed. Because to be honest, part of — You would have been deeply

uncomfortable. —

I wanted to go out and hit a gay bar with you, but I was not emotionally capable of doing that after all of the touching, talking, and following the show. I was was sort of tapped out emotionally and I felt like I can’t deal with any more human contact. Yeah. Was was the pony a good time? The

pony was great. Highly recommend the Pony Bar if, you know, you get to Seattle and have a strong constitution. The artwork there, I I think you know, might offend the sensibilities of the, you know, the board of the stop woke act in Florida. And some some other people may maybe in a few in the crowd. But So

would you take Mona with you to the pony?

Boy, I think I would just because, man, Mona would never forget it. I mean Mona would be on her deathbed, and she’d be just talking about how much she loves Ben and how interesting her experience was at the pony. But I don’t think I’d bring my own Mona. You know, like my mother. I don’t think I’d

Yeah. It sounds like it’s like watching boogie nights with your mom. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

Yeah. Arab was a good time at by all, and you had a good time with Dan Savage. We we started the show talking about the Biden documents. And since then, we have a little bit more news

on the document front. Yeah. Mike Pence has some documents. Everybody’s got classified documents, Jabil. Have you checked your own library?

I I haven’t, but I can tell you since we moved, we probably have them in box us somewhere. I

think that there there are two interesting elements to the Pence news for me. One is, you know, and then not my party, and we get into this a little bit at the in at the show and see at all. There’s just this element of it’s pretty obvious now we overclassify, and and Trump is now gonna be able to muddy the waters between his own, like intentionally illicit behavior, bringing stuff down because he wanted to show off the cougars, how class identified his material as and, like, not responding to the to the FBI. He’s gonna be able to muddy the waters between that and what is, you know, clearly more mundane across the board. Behavior of of just not maybe being as meticulous about classified material as people should be.

But part of the reason as people are meticulous is because classified stupid shit. You know, I I quoted in the night my party Michael Hayden saying I sent an email where I where someone said Merry Christmas to me and it had a classified label on it. So I think that there that is one element of this that’s interesting is kind of whether that this creates a revisiting of that. The other interesting element is more of the political side, J. B.

I’m interested in your take about this. Did Mike Pence do this to screw over Donald

Trump?

Is this a is this a little bit of, you know, he’s like, oh, I better be I better be, you know, just just to be safe. I better check I better check my, you know, all of my boxes to kinda get Joe Biden off the hook here and demonstrate the difference between us and Donald Trump. You know, I suspect

that every person who has served in the White House over the last, like, twenty years, has suddenly been run around saying, hey, get get the lawyers and go look through everything because you don’t because this is the amnesty period. Right? Like this is right now, you find stuff and you turn it in. You’re just part of the general crush of whatever. I would say to listeners about the overclassification, it is important to understand that this is not a new talking point that just came up when Joe Biden’s stuff was discovered.

This has been for twenty years. Both Democrats and Republicans have been complaining about over classification of government files. This is and they’ve complained about for different reasons. Like, from the left of the the it’s like, the government is trying to hide its secrets. And from the right, it’s much more national security based, which is when you try to keep everything secret, you keep nothing secret.

Right? And and so you wind up, it’s bad for national security. And So

this is part

of the

nine eleven complaints. Right? Like the interagency stuff. Right?

Which is like

some you know, that some of the agencies you know, we’re we’re hoarding information and, you know, maybe

some information that would have been easily shared if it hadn’t been classified. Exactly. Exactly. And in obama passed legislation to try to, like, ease some of this. And, anyways, the level of bad faith and the people were like, oh, no, that it’s biting.

You know, that’s it’s the same same. And I I this is why I have such such low tolerance for it. And why I really do think Well, screw it. Let’s forget the optics. Let’s just follow the law.

Because the law of this stuff is pretty clear and that’s why the intent is is a big part of it. And, you know, like, the reason nobody’s going nobody’s going losing their minds over Mike Pence finding classified documents is because Mike Pence didn’t have his stuff subpoenaed. He didn’t submit false reports saying he didn’t have it and then didn’t invent excuses as to why he wasn’t gonna give I mean, that’s why the FBI showed up at Mar a Lago. Right? Isn’t because Trump hadn’t passed by dialing order?

It’s the long it’s the long order. You know, I feel like we, right here, are the law and order party, Tim. Alright. I think that’s probably enough preamble. It was great it was great seeing you.

It was great seeing Sarah. It was great seeing all the bulwark people who were so kind and so thoughtful. And, Tim, I think we should do more of these. I really

wanna do more. I just I love it. You know, I know this is gonna surprise you JBL, but I don’t mind a little attention. You know,

I had

one

of my friends one of my old friends who lives in Seattle and came and was just was just miserable as he stood there watching, you know, people want to come

see me.

You know? And I I kind of enjoyed me watching him, watching me. And so, you know, I enjoyed that. And it’s just nice to kind of just just sort of feel the reality of the community you wrote about this so beautifully. But I I do think the cool part about this is that I I think that the folks that went, and I I heard this firsthand, found it very easy to kinda hang out with each other and meet each other.

Right? Because we just you start with this common you know, actually caring about the same things. Right.

The things that

matter having been through bullshit together. Maybe we went through bullshit all on the net, but we all we did go through it together. And so I I think that’s been really cool. And I wanna I wanna get on the road, I wanna get to the Midwest, bring Charlie out there, I wanna get to the south. I think we should had the rage in Cajun in New Orleans and, you know, maybe go to some other places.

Now I did we did have just really quick. I I sarcastically suggested that we have Urskin Bulls in North Carolina on the

I have gotten emails from people asking when that was because they’re like, fired up to go see it. Or skinballs. You guys gonna be in Charlotte or in Research Triangle.

That’s not that was not that one wasn’t real. But but we are gonna do it. You’re gonna get out there. Yeah. Well, it’s

good. I look, I just need a refractory period to refill the well. My twenty thirty five, I’ll be ready for human contact again. Sounds great. Alright,

everybody. Enjoy the show. Hey, and when you’re listening, it’s gonna be me and JBL and Sarah at the front. We’ll take a little break and that’s just gonna be me and Dan Savage and it gets n c seventeen so you know don’t play that in the cart with the kiddos. We’ll see you guys

soon.

Hello,

everyone. Welcome to the Woolworth Live. I’m JBL. Here’s my best friend, Sarah Longwell and Tim Miller of the ballwork.

Thank

you all for coming out on this beautiful night with the wintry mix and the fog and it’s it’s been wonderful. Let’s let’s all start with some bad news. More Biden docks have been found. Did you guys see this? Yeah.

So the FBI showed up to search Biden’s personal residence in in Delaware. I do have to say is something and I have been assured by conservatism, Inc. Could never possibly happen. Right. We had to defund the FBI because they would never go and search Joe Biden.

And just like they assured us that SPF, San Bank, Winfried, would never be prosecuted, and then, like, forty eight hour eight hours later is being arrested. There is one key difference. So we saw, like, six documents were found. They seem to span the gamut of, like, Biden’s Senate days to his VP days, there’s a key difference here, and I I know, Sarah, you talk to some amazing people every week. In your focus groups.

And I’m certain that all of them will understand that Joe Biden voluntarily invited the FBI to search his house. Right?

No. Because

that is, of course, the key part of this is that the president has said to the FBI that you guys should probably come poke around here. Which I don’t know is amazing. No. About

amazing.

Yeah. No. It’s amazing. Is it like Yes. Amazing?

Shipa. So, you know, the because he

knows it’s a woke FBI that’s going to search his house. They’re

exactly the But they’re

on his side, JBL.

Famous the famously woke our left institution, the federal police. Wait.

Can

I tell you something about the focus group — Yes? — on this? Tell me. So I did just have a group and we did ask I’ve got good news and I’ve got bad news. Good news is they do recognize that there is a difference between what Trump did and what Biden did.

Mhmm. The bad news is they think that the difference is that Trump was president when his documents were found and therefore could declassify them with his mind. And Biden could have these took these when he was not the president and did not have the authority to declassify them.

So That’s an important difference. Yeah. Shoot me now. So what what does this mean? I mean, I I am of two minds of this.

You know, on the one hand, I think to myself, Okay. This seems very bad. This is the kind of thing which can blunt good news. Could Biden’s approval rating have been drifting up. There were even a few polls where he’s over fifty percent.

This is the kind of thing that sort of, you know, puts a damper on that rise.

On the

other hand, does any but does anything matter? Right. I mean, people people don’t think that the insurrection matter basically. Right? They have the same the same political opinions they had pre insurrection.

They No. They have the same strength. It’s like two percent of the country. Like, two percent. Okay.

Well, you know, it should have been forty percent that’s left, and it didn’t. And so what what where do we go from here? Sarah, tell me. Well, make everything okay, Sarah. Okay.

Well, obviously, I think people should stop I don’t understand, presumably with classified documents, people like track these things.

No.

Yes,

they do. I cannot like, it is wild that there are so many classified documents just rolling around. So I don’t know what to do about that, but I do think that it is gonna have political implications,

probably

not for Joe Biden, because you’re right. The way that people use this is just as weapons against their political enemies. I do think it has political implications for Donald Trump in the sense that it sort of creates I mean, it lets him off the hook in the it from an optic standpoint. From an optic standpoint, once you have a very easy and obvious both sides, it creates something in the public discourse where you know, now everybody’s like, wow, they’re all corrupt. See, they all do this.

And your key difference, which is that Trump, when asked where the documents were refused to give them back, and Joe Biden invited them to come to his house and find them is not something that is going to, like, penetrate deeply into into the debate. Is it

possible that’s, like, the dark brand and strategy here that he’s muddying the waters to strengthen his weakest telephones in twenty twenty. Because the the my oligadox were kinda banned for Trump for a while. Like as a political matter, it was a it was I think one of a number of things that was and we’ll get into twenty twenty four in a minute, that was that was weakening him. And and this has, like let’s just be honest. Like, this has neutralized it as a political I think that there’s a legal matter.

Right? Like, there there maintains an existing question. You know, I think that we finally, Trump, fucked

around

and found out when it came to his when it came to his lawsuits this week where, you know, he he was he got a one million dollar fine. Yay. Think it’s one million dollars. We could, like, use that one million dollars and put it into, like, a public park. Or something or what people

one thousand Trump NFTs. Yeah.

So I I think that he could get some legal consequences from this. Trump could still because of the difference that we’re discussing. But, like, politically, like, this is fucked. That’s far as, like, as a political matter now. And and I I think that that’s not by themselves.

That’s just a reality. I think it’s good. It’s a, you know, I said in the Sam’s Show this week, like, the Merrick Garland has acted appropriately. That’s good. That’s nice.

We can walk you in a little golf club to Merrick Garland for continuing to act appropriately. But not not politically in any way that is advantageous to buy it? Howard

Bauchner: So

here’s, I mean, looking forward a little bit, right? So we have two special investigations going on It seems entirely possible that Yes. We have it’s very important that you have Republican special investigators on both. Investigators to republican to prove that it’s fair. Also important that you have a Republican special counsel investigating the Democrat.

It’s proof that it’s fair in the strip. And I think there is a reasonable chance that the investigation of Biden is going to come back and say, improper handling of classified material, but it doesn’t violate any statutes because statutes have

to

show intent, etcetera, etcetera. It is also possible that special investigation of Trump will come back and say, yes, laws will broken. At which point there could be like a thing. Right? Because then, I mean, it’s not just

around the trunk. It’s a leap. Right. The dark brand in our This is the dark

brand in our I get the sense that a lot of people on our side, our side. Which is our side? Our side. The pro democracy side. Think about this possibility and say, oh, gosh, that would be really bad because then the other you know, they’ll think it’s legitimate, but and I kind of think cry harder bitches.

Like like, we should just do that. Right? If this we shouldn’t be afraid if if the special council wants to press charges in one case and the other special council doesn’t want to say you Tim? Is somebody

of an animal collective? Ringer.

One

cool person out there. Let’s let’s hang out after. Anyway, should

we be afraid of if we get charges in one case and

not charges You I mean, I’m not to, like, throw this back at you, but your whole point you were sitting for a long time should definitely not prosecute Trump or I think prosecute and Biden should harden him.

I did.

Because you understand that optic do matter, and the legitimacy of these institutions do matter. And I actually do agree with you that, like, you just have to follow the law and let the chips follow where they may. But the idea that that won’t have enormous consequences in our polarized society in a low trust environment for these institutions. Like, I think it will have a big And I think we shouldn’t worry about it. But, yeah, there’s nothing to do, but follow the law.

And I do wonder whether or not it ultimately changes how Biden’s thinking about twenty twenty four. Do you think do either of those?

No. I don’t know. Right? So when we were with our our buddy Johnny Fabs down in Los Angeles, he seemed one hundred percent resigned to the idea that Biden was running. Is that what you picked up from him?

Yeah. He was very He was unhappy about it, and he seemed to believe it was a done deal.

What do

you people think? For

sure. Right? No. I mean, it isn’t done deal. He’s running.

And he hasn’t announced it, but he’s running. I mean, like, dare And you don’t

think it’s I will answer your question. Johnny Fouse.

We put him with those a ringer. I don’t know if you’ve listened to it today. But, you know, we gave him all of the tough questions about this. Them because, like, the rehab like dude is gonna be eighty two. And I like, they’re legitimate questions.

Our friend, Bill Crystal, has been asking some of those legitimate questions. He may or may not have been getting some friendly calls from some of these people in the line house

being like,

chilling out, Bill. Okay? Nothing wrong here. Alright? We’re all cool.

And and, like, Jabber has been getting those calls. Everyone has because he’s running. Right? Like, he’s running. And and that’s That’s just and and so I don’t think, like, the the fact that he wanted the FBI to go do this, I I think is even more of a sign that that he’s running.

Right? It’s like we need to get our our ducks in a row. And, like, he’s designed that this is, like, this is what he’s gonna do. Okay.

But they haven’t handled this particularly well. We’re in a way that inspires them.

No. I mean,

right out of the gate, they should have said, This has nothing to do with the White House. This has nothing to do with Joe Biden’s president. These are old documents.

Yeah. It’s in his house. Is in his garage. Yeah. Like, Hunter Hunter was, like, smoking crack on the corvette and, like, the docs are on the are I giving that room over, like, the like, you can’t pronounce

Like, it was I don’t know. That’s I don’t from a calm standpoint, distancing the White House and the current work from it. Because here’s the thing. My guess is that they were he was, like, using for his memoir or something. Right?

Isn’t that Like, we opened those out there. I

mean, he’s a customer way too much shit. Okay. So I got part of the problem. Like, there’s a lot of stuff in there. It’s probably like Joe and Joe Biden being like, this is Malarkey.

It’s like an email replying to something. And it’s like, that’s classified. You know? And, like, Derek, like, we classified way too much shit, but a lot of government bureaucracy, libertarian, and Tim is coming out right now. We should back and all that shit.

Like, even probably

all didn’t think that about Trump’s documents. Well,

you know,

but, I mean, I I actually didn’t. Like, I think if you go back to the market, I never thought it was that big If Donald Trump wants to ring his fucking love letters to Kim Jong Un down to Mar a Lago to show some cougars, like, is that really that big of a deal? Like, I do think

it’s a big deal of the FBI.

I do think it’s a big deal of the FBI. It’s like, hey, we we think you have few things there that

are

important that we need to or I do think it’s a big deal. Like Jared is giving some nuclear documents to MBS in order to get, you know, to get some money. Right? Like like, they’re think there’s certain they’re secret things that are secret and important. Like, we have a lot of shit that’s, like, nothing important.

But

we

don’t know either in Trump’s case or in Biden’s case. How much of it was cooler letters versus, like, real stuff. And so I I think we have to reserve judgment on how bad it is

that these

things were just lying around. It’s not good. It is going to come into play, and I’m gonna ride an investigation now. I just I just think it is a real problem for them, and they have to right now, I have not been inspired with confidence by the way they’ve handled it. What

would you like them to do?

Well, I think maybe have known that the doc you’re there, like, fuck up. Yeah. Fuck up. They fucked up.

It’s like, now they’re here. I think they

did such a mess. They told you to sit in there. And they were like, Oh, there might prosecute, chunk over these documents. Do you think we have any classified documents? Somebody should go check.

No. I mean, Yeah. I mean, Joe Hines, did an office for sixty years.

They were, like, they’re pretty documents everywhere. And he’s gonna

be brief unclassified shit in, like, nineteen six the eighth. Okay. But so this is so this is ultimately though, ultimately, this is the point, which is that everybody basically is like, well, I think, yes, everybody just has these documents lying around. What Trump did is not that bad. And if they prosecuted Vora, people are gonna be, like, what is going on?

Okay. I

don’t care about that.

Like, I’m

yelling into this microphone. This is

all in. I can, like, hear my voice reverberating back. Trump was subpoenaed by court. Don’t explain

the difference to me. I’m just telling you.

Alright.

Let’s let’s move on. It

seems to

me. This is a a radical topic shift. That the Republican Party is reconsidering its armistice with the gays Does that seem right to you guys or no? Like, one of the oddities of the Trump candidacy Was it like he was friendly to gay people? He comes up he comes up from New York.

We have pictures of him and drag. We’re Rudy. Right? And You know, he like he had his own pride flag and all that, and he didn’t really care. He’s so transactional.

He didn’t care about any culture or stuff unless he was getting in votes. And gay stuff didn’t get him any

votes. And

now we have Trans

stuff that Trans stuff that. Right. And now we have Rhonda Santos in Florida who seems to think that there’s a lot of votes we had in gay stuff. And other on the bank Republicans seem to be thinking the same thing. And the polling looks like it’s turning around a little bit in a Republican elector too.

Right? You know, we had Republicans basically making their peace on gay marriage, and now looks like maybe they’re reconsidering that.

What what

do you think? Is this

is this

think anybody’s reconsidering gay marriage, really? I

I mean, more broadly. I mean, more broadly the whole idea that, like, yeah, we’re over the gay stuff. Let’s move on to the next fight.

I just

think the fight the fight has moved to something new. Right? So the more people than ever believe in support gay marriage, including among Republicans. Including, like, you know, younger Republicans. The fight now is the way that sort of the gay stuff gets rolled into, like, the woke conversation.

And woke, if you had to define it, is

I

think anything that, like, originates in a college like, campus. Right. Or, like, from a professor, like, that is I think that’s what it is. I’m pretty sure. And so, like, what it is.

Right? It’s like caring

what black people think.

I

don’t I should ask more people to define, look, actually, now that I think about it. I don’t think about

it. It is a good focus

group question because people use the word a lot. But I think that the the question is, right, there are so there are people who still want to be hostile to gay people, but there are sort of new routes into it that are more broadly popular than just opposing gay marriage or being against gay people. In general, and it’s things like what they’re doing in Florida. Right? With we don’t want teachers to be able to talk about being gay.

They can’t sort of have pictures of their spouses in the classroom because and they so kids are now the entryway, which is why everybody talks about groomers. And so, like, it’s a different it’s a it’s the battlefield has moved. It’s in a different place and it’s in a place where it is sounds more rational to a larger group of people. Like, the the

whatever

don’t say gay mail, whatever the real name of it was down the floor. I had, like, sixty some percent support.

And I

think that if Rhonda Santos, well, he will stay on that battlefield. Right? He will say this is not about gay people. He may even say he thinks it’s fine for gay people to get married. But he will talk about kids.

Actually,

I assumed it

ended up being a problem for DeSantis. Yeah. Because, like, Trump continued to prove in the twenty sixteen campaign that, like, people do not. I feel weird saying that this is an church. I hope the lightning bolt has to come down.

Like, the people are not do not want Christian friends. Okay. Like lecturing about sexual morality and hectoring about sexuality. It’s like Trump’s one of Trump’s insights was that, like, they people thought to have cruise was creepy and weird. Yeah.

K? And my Like, go and my friends. Like, there’s a certain percentage people that were really into that that not a majority. And and that, like, Trump kind of, you know,

zagging

away from that a little bit, you know, and picking its fights, you know, in areas where, you know, like on the trans issue where where he thought he had, you know, more support, I I think allowed him to kind of expand that popular support. Like, DeSantis thing might be creeping into, like, the creepy Tech Cruise territory. So I’m just like, I’m not sure that that’s smart. And and I think that, like so when I went to the TPUSA thing and Florida. And I have

spent some

time

with the gays against groomers. It’s a sad.

It was so

No. It’s not me. Really? I’m laughing that it was really sad. Oh, it made me sad.

It’s funny and sad. And and so I was, like, we’re we we have a little semicircle going in the hallway, and I was, like, trying to understand why they were participating in their own demonization and asking them questions and, you know, it’s conversations going one of the things that come up. I was like, I was like, these fucking assholes that are going on stage that you’re here supporting, like, they don’t want you to be able to adopt kids, like, going forward. Like, King carriage might be, like, quasi settled, but, like, they’re they’re still fighting that fight. Like, no.

No. That’s not true. Nobody wants that. It was, like, three, three weeks that are, like, just yesterday, Matt Walsh sends a tweet. It’s, like,

gay

gay people should not be allowed to adopt and link to an article about, like, two gay guys that did something really bad to the kid. It looks like, oh, man. Straight people have never molested a kid. Let me tell you that. We should probably strive a lot to ban this day.

The Catholic church. It’s

But so I I

Okay. What kind of church is

this? What kind what kind of church are we at? I sent him and so I sent I sent some, we friended each other, and it’s guys, like, let’s keep this done as long open. Gise against rumors. Get your hat out of the gutter.

Because, like, I need to know what’s happening out there. And and I sent them a link and they’re

like, yeah,

that’s that’s bad. You’re right. Yeah. I point you point you’re right on that one. But I I just I like, the Walsh thing was over like, the DailyWire is extremely popular, and that was overwhelmingly popular.

And I do think that they feel like there is backlash, and we’ll get this with Dan in a little bit to, like, the increasing identification of of LGBT kids in schools. Like, that makes parents uncomfortable that makes grants, some certain grandparents uncomfortable. And I think that they think that there’s an opening there. But I just I think it’s very easy to slip from, like, the Rhonda Santos territory that was kind of popular, like, on its space. Into the Nat Walsh territory where it’s like, you’re a creep.

Stay away from me. And like that, it’s not where the country is anymore. And so I I don’t know that it actually is gonna be a winner a lot. But you need a

question about whether the country’s there. It’s about whether the Republican primary voters

should there. And I assume

that that’s a real question. And I assume that somebody will try to come and outbid DeSantis in in a frame — Sure. — on this stuff. Right? And I guess what I’m asking is Mike Pence

won’t even be in a room with a woman alone. So I think he’s got everybody’s right flank. Upper knee.

With

his one percent. Yes. Alright. So we I you know, there are many very fine political podcasts. One of them is John Vavros, Pod Save America.

Which yeah. Don’t clap that hard. Which often has these two people as guests on. I don’t exist. So I I don’t get invited to America.

Never. So I hear I’m I’m not myself on Twitter. Yep. But my job as Twitter tells me that you were being ratioed. Ratioed.

For suggesting that Part ratio. Their other

people. Get it. Oh, yeah. I’ve been bothering very. Others get more.

Worse. Go the hour.

You you are in trouble. For saying that other Republicans could beat Joe

Biden. Do

better, Sarah. True

or false. Defend yourselves.

I did my first time in Pod Save America, so I wasn’t as familiar with their audience. But if you you cannot say something like other Republicans can be Joe Biden, I would the thing was so let’s let’s tone down on the reading. It was, like, a hundred. It’s, like, getting very low engagement. It’s, like, one twenty five So what I

mean, now, before Tim started reaching you, I’m gonna we’re gonna

pull up the numbers. You can you defend yourself. I’ll pull up the ratio number here.

Affect you.

So one of the

things

about clips on Twitter for those of you who aren’t on is they are often submitted without the full context of the conversation. Oh my gosh.

That sounds crazy.

Elan’s

gonna fix that. Right? And

look, if if right now, I’m sorry. I don’t want to tell people about the fact that, like, I’ve listened to voters, Democratic voters, and swing voters, and yes, Republican voters. A lot over the last few years, and Joe Biden’s age is an actual problem. If Joe Biden is running against Donald Trump, who’s also a very old man. I

think

Joe Biden could could beat Donald Trump. I think he also could potentially not, but I think he can. And I think in twenty sixteen, I also I began the conference. The work that was cut out was me being, like, I think Joe Biden saved America. I think Joe Biden has been a pretty good president.

Like, I think a lot of work is about Joe Biden.

The two hundred

and forty four thousand people who have viewed this clip didn’t get to catch didn’t catch that. You can’t be out. Just wanna let you know, moderator and You’re four to one again. I believe

the I believe the thing that I said. I’m not like, where it’s this is true. So I think I think and I do think in twenty sixteen, Joe Biden was the only Democrat who could beat Donald Trump. I both no longer think that that’s true. Right?

I think if somebody else ran against Donald Trump in twenty twenty four who was a younger fresh face, maybe a Midwestern governor who just won her race by, you know,

very tall.

Yeah. Like, I’m just saying there are people now in a way that I think they’re prior to twenty two, like, twenty two gave the democrats a new bench. And so I think that there are other democrats who could beat Donald Trump I

totally agree. Midwestern Trump voters from I’m sorry. Twenty twenty before. Totally cotton on to a woman for president.

That’s

that checks out. Okay. Are

you just

dominated? Yeah. Congrats and great. What are you talking about? Yeah.

I I don’t agree

with that, but in my my my point is is that other people could beat Donald Trump. I also think that that Joe Biden would fare very well against Donald Trump likely. But I think if he runs at eighty two years old against a forty six year old governor who just won by twenty points, And look, these guys are all untested. Liana very quick pause.

It’s pretty weird to understand this is forty six. Right? He looks like forty four. He looks like he could fifty.

He’s

like What is

he? What

is he? He was like, like, when I

was a pretty sick doctor?

Care routine.

I it’s and it just makes me very uncomfortable that Ron doesn’t listen to me. Like No

wonder I know what he

does. I

I see myself as much more useful than it. Tim, what he likes to

do is he likes to take the faces of of babies. And to put him on his microphone on his face. For example, bro. He uses from me. For example, bro.

That’s that’s how he achieved that watch. Yeah.

I’m sorry

to hear that. It just still freaks me out. Partly, I was

a little definitive. I, like, went back and looked at it and I was like You’re a little definitive. Because I was like, think any Republican not, Donald Trump, I think, could be Joe Biden, and I think that’s not true. Let’s

go through. Enjoy my comments.

Oh, sorry. Santos, cannot beat Joe Biden. Right? Like How about Mike Pence?

Can Mike Pence

beat Joe Biden? I don’t

think

so. Yeah. How about

Mike Pompeo?

I don’t

know. You guys haven’t seen any of these people.

Chris, you know.

They’re, like, blake’s crap. So I was

Lord my head.

We had just We had just finished we had just finished a whole conversation by the scientists and Youngkin at some of the governors. Right? Who I think, you know, there are there are people who are who could be front runners, who would be tough for Joe Biden to be out of sheer age comparison. Right? He did not have to campaign.

You never like it when I say this, but this is just true. The pandemic changed the dynamics of that race. He did not have to get out there and campaign. Being on a presidential campaign schedule at eighty two, that is brutal. Do you know how often people will talk about the fact that he would be eighty six at the end of his term?

How much it will matter who his vice president is. Suddenly, it will matter to be great, great deal. And so the idea if he is stacked up against a forty six year old governor or a I don’t know how old Glenn Young gets, but whatever. If he’s up against somebody who I just think that is a really tough contrast, and I think

hard that I’m

seeing and winning. We’re not

sure yet

because we don’t know what these people are gonna be like,

but that’s tough. So I think that is almost indisputably true.

Him or was it

he was I wonder if you agree with

her. Oh.

You agree on

the Santos would definitely be

showing up. Like, he didn’t agree me. It’s

okay. I agree. This surprise. I agree. You are you are just brow meeting fans over the fact that Joe Biden was a better president than Barack Obama just two nights ago.

And now you’re ready to have them get beaten to, like, Rhonda Santos. There’s, like, a penguin. There’s, like, whiny, whiny voice, wobbling on stage. Not letting people learn about black history. Like, that guy is really gonna win.

I don’t I don’t know. I just don’t I don’t I don’t I don’t buy it.

I also just

run to say this is, like, smart enough, and he would not run on, like You don’t It’s

too

late. He’s got a beat Donald Trump in a prime. No. That’s

true. That’s true. There are a lot of There’s tapes that So there’s a whole bunch of dynamics that we don’t know yet. Right? But one dynamic that I am

certain of is the dynamic

of somebody who is eighty two years old, stack up against somebody who’s forty six or anybody under sixty

five? And

that’s a tough thing here. Taken care of. It’s not great. It’s pretty old. I mean, it’s pretty old.

He’s just old.

And it was a little bit phlemic thing. I will say, we’re picking him four fabs, and he’s not here. Was a little bit concerned to me. I I thought that fabs like to stand in when we were interviewing him for, like, every Democratic operative who’s smart that I talked to. And it’s like, we’re a little worried about the fact that he’s eighty two.

Right? He’s like, yeah. And it’s like, we’re a little worried about the fact that Comwell hasn’t exactly proven herself. Right? And it’s like, yeah.

Like, what’s the plan? See what happens. Like, feels like

feels like

a pretty big risk with Rhonda Santos, like, and these guys hanging out there and that so that is concerning. That said, I don’t I I don’t know I I certainly don’t think that we can sit here right now and be, like, certainly, in twenty twenty four, eighty two year old Joe Biden couldn’t beat Ronda Santos, I I think Ronda Santos might wear, like, very poorly. You know? I mean, like, Ronda Santos might be the type of person, like, seems okay over there, like, where he’s yelling at the woke reporter on TV, and, you know, like, you see one twelve second clip of him. And then Ramzi doesn’t and you’re like, man, that or it’s like the person at the at school where you’re like, they made a good, you know, that dad over there made a good comment, yelling at the ref, during the soccer match.

Maybe being that dad could be friends, and you invite him over to dinner, and he starts talking. You’re like, this person is fucking horrible.

Like, I don’t wanna

send another seconds with this person. Like, I just I just don’t know that Rhonda Sanders is gonna wear that well. I don’t think it’s that. It’s certainly assured that just because he’s younger. And he’s gonna have to run the primary against Biden.

He runs his right on vaccines. He runs his right on immigration. He runs his right on

race. That’s really

gonna play in the In in this country where, like, democrats won every key senate seat. Like, he’s gonna do better than Dr. Oz. I don’t know. Donald Oz has seems kind of doctor Ozish to me.

Isn’t he like is he any different than Blake Masters who just

lost?

Yeah,

Lake Masters lost and he won in his state by twenty points. And people have there is He’s running in Florida.

Right. That’s

bullshit. But you know what? I I hear this in I hear this in the groups all the time when they talk about why they like, Rhonda Sanchez, and they’re like, they still see Florida in their minds. Like, Florida is a place with hanging chads. It is a swing state to them that Rhonda Santos turned blood red.

The free state of Florida has reached mythic proportions of the imagination of Republican voters. And also, it’s like twenty three years old. Second, bitch. That’s fine. There are

people here that weren’t born. No. Wrongest

years. Wrongest years. Maybe

one person here that wasn’t born in there.

Do you

know what to remember the between Gillum and DeSantis first round? How close it was? In a yeah. Gillum

almost one, and then he kind of had, like, a little mess. A little bit of a problem.

But the point is is it was close. It was close. People don’t People see them through pulling Florida as like a corollary text And then hold on a second. Donald Trump

did not

lose to Joe Biden by that much. That’s true. I

was there.

Yeah. It

was concerning. It’s

concerning. Right?

Service. Yeah. So what

happened when you don’t have Donald Trump to drive the kind of turnout, the opposition I think there’s a lot, like oh, I’m saying,

let’s see what the fuck goes. Like, the megapie who might not turn up for Endo Santos. It’s

trying

to say it’s like, Rhonda Santos is really less creepy than Blake Masters. I just he was running against Charlie Chris. He was, like, the creepiest person that the Democrats put off. Out of out of every candidate in the entire country is that lots of a great contrast. I just don’t I just oh, I’m just saying, you just feel a little bit a little bit overconfident.

So let

me hold on. I went downstairs away. Hold on. We’re bringing out a time. Good show.

Won’t show.

Why

is it that Nobody seems to think that the Republican race is susceptible to another outsider. So this has been, like, one of my pet theories. Like, everything’s that Trump or DeSantis, and if DeSantis fades, then Pence or Nikki Haley or something. Why not Candace Owens? And I I I mean this, like, you know, Candace Owens just to stand in for, like, some popular figure from the conservative cinematic universe.

Right? Why not Tucker? Why why do we think that there wouldn’t be some you know, out of these lanes disrupter who comes in, especially because DeSantis is as you say. Like, not the kind of guy who talks very well or I think is charismatic and will wear very well. I

I I don’t I agree with you. I I don’t nobody else was on the reason the answer your question is, the reason is because of the people that are currently figuring out running for president Ron DeSantis, and Donald Trump are the only ones who could plausibly win or publicly get primary. Everybody else has zero chance. Sorry. I know you’re really rooting for Nikki Haley.

For the last English close event. You know, I mean, staring at this little white stares like I was like, I think Nikki Haley’s ceiling is three, and she’s like, no, I think it’s nine. I was like, Okay. Maybe she can get nine. I don’t know.

Maybe she can get nine.

None of these

fuckers can win. Mike Pompeo can’t win, Mike Pence can’t win, Nicky can’t win, Chris Christie can’t Right? No. You can’t win, Larry. Yeah.

Yeah. You have

to

be so many in the Larry House. None of them can win.

K? It’s a wonderful day. You have. Like, the party has changed and it’s time for everybody to move on. Like, so they’re all out.

Right? So so DeSantis the only one that has successfully navigated the megapivet. Right? And so the fear the thing is that I think all those other people are hoping, the micrompos of the world, like, he’s just staying up late at night, like, drinking this little protein shakes or whatever it was. Again, they’ll lose so much weight, getting grumpy because he’s not getting any calories anymore.

I’m thinking, like, Maybe if Rhonda if everyone else’s is annoyed, it’s Rhonda, it’s insane. I am and Donald Trump dies from a

cheeseburger. Then people will

turn to me. And, like, no. That’s not what would happen. It they would go. There’d be another MAGA person that would emerge.

Right? That’s where the party I agree with you. I think that the third outside mega person is the only other option. Hey, everybody. We’re back.

I Is one of these waters mine

or is that You

can have both of you all. I’d like to introduce you to Dan Savage, local legend. Dan Savage has been a columnist writing about sex advice for what? Seventy two years. Seventy two years.

Things

I’ve ramped in Landers and the streamlining here. So it

gets better projects. It’s very true for me in particular, but also for a lot of gay people. And what else Did you have anything else you wanna you wanna Pampers? I

I’ve hosted established webcast for sixteen years. Everything I’ve done is It’s doing

weird. It’s at the groundhog day life. I’m so excited for me to come. Do you guys know the backstory between me and Dan? We kind of have a little friend of me vibe.

Do you guys know? Okay. Good. We’re gonna share that real quick. We got some screenshots.

I wanna share. Sir, are

you sharing them? I’m

just on my little phone. Oh, I’m gonna read them. So Let’s just take back to closeted Republican gay, Tim. Let’s just put ourselves in two thousand six for a second. Okay?

I’m in like j crew critter pants. K? They might be So on

Reapercock, you’re vibrating on television.

They might be tweeted, morning fake glasses, look at a older ODDC to work with Sarah. I want I’m coming out of the closet. There’s only one gay person that works besides her, she’s a lesbian, you can ask her about anything. He’s a square. I’m trying to figure out what to do.

I don’t I don’t know where it goes. I know nothing. I know nothing. I’ve no guarantee. Should’ve been reading my column all

that time. I start reading your column. And I

was like, do you I was like, oh my god. I was like, now I know. Where, you know, which hole it goes in? And I’m like, I’m learning everything. I’m learning about gay culture.

I’m wondering about gay sex. I was like, thank God for being savage. I didn’t know to talk to. I finally had the courage to come out. I met people.

You were a key Part of that, I’m just so grateful. He’s

so great. Oh, I do it. No.

No. No. No. No. You deserve it.

Because it’s about to turn the corner

of

this. See this. Nine

years later, eight years

later, I’m out of the closet. I am a proud gay Republican, probably the most visible gay Republican in America. Got a great job. Let’s meet Jim Bush’s communications director. We all love Jab.

Jab. Jab. Jab. Jab. Job job.

Okay. And it’s my big day. Political announces the news. I’m with my friends. We’re at dinner or drinking.

I pull out a sweater and I was like, goodbye. Okay. Let’s see what it says here. It’s fake dance savage. Not naive.

Tim can probably find some POS to suck his cock, but in a perfect plural, no one would fucking gay dude working to a lifetime of

us.

I stand by that. That’s

a great tweet actually. That’s a really good tweet. Some of the others aren’t quite as aren’t quite as don’t quite have the same. You’re gonna say, Kwa, you know. How does Tim sleep at night?

Let’s see. Update that resume, Tim. Jeb is tanking. You’ll be out of a job, exclamation point soon. Pretty

good.

Yeah. Pretty

good. Any of that are my feelings. You know, it sounds like, oh, man. Maybe I’ve let I guess I’ve let the in savage down.

And then Okay. Republicans always let me down. Yeah.

In

every here,

every conceivable fashion? Or Well, no. It’s

anyway in

particular. Just the useful

idiocy of gay Republicans to the Republican party and it was obvious to me what the Republican party was doing when it would brandish, when it would push forward a gay Republican to be the spokesman. Or when the republican party would, like, make Michael Steel the head of the R and C right after Obama got elected, it was to inoculate the republican party against the completely legitimate charge of the crime the Republican Party was guilty of of homophobia, political homophobia and racism and I could see it. And it I knew that you were smart enough that you could see how you were being used and used and weaponized to harm other gay people by electing Republicans who would then do us and you harm And you were fine with that on some level, not just fine whether I wanna read a part of your book

too. Oh, we’re going to the book already. I wasn’t even done with my bed. Yes. Go ahead.

I

I love this book, and I love you now in part because

not everybody does

this work. Not everybody does this self excavation. But you really unpack, like, what’s going on with closeted gay Republicans here. And out gay Republicans, many of them, I had one or two encounters, okay, fine, definitely too, to college, that I’m one I’m trying to mentally expunge. But if anything, those encounters drove me deeper into the closet.

They made me more embarrassed, more self conscious, more ashamed, and this is the key more hostile to people who were open about their sexuality because I couldn’t have what they had.

So

a lot of gay Republicans, there was this closeted or not rage at out gay people who had what they couldn’t have, didn’t have, would allow themselves to have. And people who got organizationally involved in Republican politics, who were gay were seeking revenge. Not against straight politicians who would seek to harm them, but against gay people who wouldn’t fuck them or who saw what they were doing by getting into bed with the Republican Party.

Boy. So a couple

of years after that, Dan had me on his podcast and he just did that. So I just sat there and turned Paul and

he was like,

oh, you got me. We didn’t got me. We’re guilty. There’s something else we could have started with.

Yeah. It’s a little bit more I

mean, that is true. And I had done and it’s funny. Even as a out gay republican, I I saw and I should have seen it myself. Right? Because I saw exactly what you and the other gay Republican, Sarah Gun lover looks at the best in people trying to do the long counter Republican thing.

I couldn’t do that because you could sense that in a social setting with gay Republicans, like, what was the animating element for all of them? Right? Like, it was kind of bitterness. It was kind of bitterness towards like the other games. Right?

And so this was kind of like a way to take it out on them. I never really actually had that feeling like they did. I was just an ambitious asshole, the one would be the White House press secretary, which isn’t any better, I guess. But it’s different in a social setting. Right?

And I I I I identified that so clearly. And, like, was never I never went to the, you know, gay parties, so I don’t like having a good gossip for you guys, but Aaron shocked or anything. Like, I never did any of that. Right? Like for that exact reason.

But I was just I was happy to add you back on. And the thing that I was curious about is the reason why you invited me on your podcast that started this kind of, you know, decade long trajectory from, you know, mentor to frenemy to, like, aspiring pal. We’ll see how the night goes. The night is Was was that you like like us now? Like, where you’re you, like, listen to Charlie.

Like, you, like, wake up. It’s Tuesday. You’re, like, I wanna hear what Charlie Sykes and AV Stonnard have to say. I I do so. Explain that.

I’m not just trying to look at that happen. Maybe started,

like, Bill fucking Chris Bill Cristal. I’m excited

when Bill Cristal’s

on me too. What is happening? What

how do

you

explain this? I mean, it’s nice to see people who tried to rub your nose and shit for decades eating shit,

which is

part of the joy of the of the

Bulwark or the scales falling from all y’all’s eyes. And suddenly, you seeing what everybody else saw Oh, hello. Including the right

like, this

is this is one of my questions for later. I don’t wanna, like Okay. Don’t

wanna This is what I didn’t understand about

people who were seemed to be good people. That was my impression of you. When I would see you on TV, and you’re such a great writer.

I would like, there’s a decent

person in there somewhere

who is

refusing to see what is blazingly obvious And so obvious that if you’re refusing to see it, you’re either so stupid you can’t and you’re not stupid, or malevolent on some level or something else is going on. And for me, it was like when I was fifteen years old, Ronald Reagan ran for president, and gave a speech endorsing states rights in Philadelphia and Mississippi where civil rights activists had been murdered and that was only sixteen years after the passage of the civil rights act in nineteen sixty four. Everybody knew that state’s rights meant

Segregation Jim

Crow, bands on interracial relationships, racist violence, and Ronald Reagan ran out that, endorsed that. So Trump isn’t some aberration. The Republican Party, since Nixon, since LBJ, has been trafficking and racist dog whistle. You know the famous The Outwater interview.

And whatever else

you might agree with Republicans on about the cold war or spending or a certain kind of conservatism to crawl into bed with people who worshiped Ronald Reagan.

Trump wasn’t the

first one to throw away the dog whistle and pick up the bullhorn and call the racists into the republican party.

It’s not

it’s not a the last

six years aberration. It’s a forty, fifty year project of the Republican Party to bring us here to this place where we now we have Ron DeSantis possibly running for president ending African American AP studies in Florida That’s why I wanted to go

before I get to our segments. So because you had that clarity, we didn’t have. Oh, you

knew but you knew it. You had to know No. No. I know. But a bit of real clarity about the the dangers of the enabling.

Right? Which I think is key question. Right? Like, because because your point is right. The the point of, you know, hey, like, Ronny was right about the cold war.

You know, we had some we had some points. I mean, we took down the Soviet. It’s not bad. Right? So the question is, is that is it worth it?

Is it worth it to then being still in coalition with the with the dark part of it. Right? And like that was, you know, always the thing that that those are sort of involved. We’re navigating I think incorrectly that that that you said, COVID, but so I’m curious now, you know, that we’re, you know, obviously, have had like this insane progress in the meantime, right, to where we are. We’re all kind of sitting on here on stage now with our gay kids and our you know, boyfriends and our boyfriends, boyfriends, and our marriages, and all that.

Well, marriages, it wouldn’t have happened if your guy, Rob, me, had water. If you’re guy, Jeff, Jeff,

Rob, if you’re

guy, McKee.

Jeff, Rob, it’s pretty good. What like, what’s your take? Because we’re just talking about that, about this, like, pivot to the DeSantis that don’t say gay. Like, how do how do you have it’s someone that has has a little bit of remove, like, SS, you know, like where you think that things are going with, like, the current Republican party as they, like, you know, had a period of quasi, not truth, but quasi, you know, like, maybe making the gay is not the main character anymore. Like, where do you think that goes?

For

the next They’re not making us it’s not that they’re do want they wanna make us the main character. Once again, they’d rather talk about butt fucking than just about anything else. Right?

Hunter’s penis,

man. Hunter’s penis,

which I think has seen the inside of a few months. And there

may be proof on

that laptop.

That we’re all gonna

get to see because it’s all the Republicans wanna talk about.

It’s

distressing to watch to see how easily revived the gays as pedophiles gays as recruiters. When I was you know, twelve, thirteen years old. I was that kid Harvey Milk talked about. When he talked about there’s a kid who opens a newspaper, who’s thinking about suicide, We’re thinking about the closet as the only two options. Then he opens a newspaper and sees that a gig I got elected to the San Francisco board of supervisors and thinks, oh, I have a new option which has moved to San Francisco.

Right? I was like, literally that kid. Like, I thought you and Harvey were peers. No. No.

I’m like a really young person here.

I got my tongue in my

mouth.

Listen

to the clubs are off and check the calendar. I’m sorry. I

was that kid.

Right? My parents my dad thought Anita Bryant was right. My dad was a Chicago homicide detective in the sixties and seventies, and it’s like the only gay people he ever met were corpses or murderers. And he

that was when most gay people

were still closeted. And he thought the need of Brian was right. That like gay people recruited children and were pedophiles. And he would say those things in front of me when I was twelve and I already knew I was gay. And it was a real weird head fuck to be that kid thinking, your parents, they say, I love you and you’re like, no, you don’t.

I know you don’t. You already told me you don’t. And to hear him say these things about him and Brian was really devastating. And I forget what the question was. So

take us to the current political — Oh my. — like, how we’re coming back. And we seem to get

past that — Like gays as — Yeah. — by coming out and doing the, you know, our deploying our secret weapon, which is being embedded in every family. But Being randomly distributed through the population. It’s

too in

my family. Yeah.

Maybe sometimes not so randomly, there is a genetic component. All the science points that direction, maybe a domineering

mother component. It’s helpful She’s not listening. Hi,

mom. That

could be a coincidence and a data point, not necessarily. You know,

I had to and

and to see how easily it’s been revived and how the Republicans have divided like, we our movement for civil rights advanced farther and faster than any other movement for civil rights ever. Because of that secret weapon, because we were talking to our parents and our siblings. And QAnon Trump, all of these all the shit that we’ve seen in the last six years drove the wedge into families that now they’re pouring this into. Yeah. And it’s gay kids who may have already been estranged from their boomer parents because of the Trump voting QAnon

show.

Their parents are

being turned against them now. Yeah. In a way that I didn’t

think was

possible,

six

years ago, and it’s really distressing. It’s really scary.

Uplifting. Okay. I agree with

you. It is I guess, I wanna get to the next tip, but but just on that point really quick, like, so it wasn’t just me. I mean, one of my rationalizations, you know, which was wrong. Obviously, one of my rationalizations for doing what I

was doing was like, you

know, the arc of gay history is, like, already moving towards fabulousness. You know? Like, we’re already, like, good set in our direction. It hasn’t all quite happened yet. Like, the trends are all moving in the right direction.

I don’t need to really worry about that stuff that much. It was one of my, like, rationalizations, which I I look back on that figure that’s about. But I genuinely believe, like, it was a rationalization sense that, like, I wanted that to be, you know, to justify me, like, working with these homophobic assholes. But it also was something I thought was true. Right?

That, like, that we’re on this inexorable path of progress, which, like, obviously, we are not. Right? And did it catch you as off guard as me? It did. I’m I’ve

been shocked by how effective the groomer bomb was when it was dropped by some bizarre, face tuned, spoke person for DeSantis who seemed to be improvising at that moment. Yeah.

Oh, it’s a giant it’s got huge

a lot of things. And it seemed to just occur to her end of the moment to throw that word out there. And it went off like a

it went off like a bomb. We’re

gonna

end on a high note here. You have a really fun bit on Twitter that you do. Mhmm. When when they’re so obituary, That’s very uplifting bit. You say this is not the obets that I was hoping for today.

Not the

obituary I wanted to

read. Not the obituary you wanted to read today.

Are there

any obituaries in particular you wanted

to read? You know, there were some

graffiti that went up in my neighborhood, and I know the person who did this stenciling in my neighborhood, It wasn’t me, but a me adjacent person, went up about a month into Donald Trump’s first and only term as president, And it all it said was one day we will wake up to his obituary. And it gave me such hope for a future.

Right? Okay. That’s

that’s when I started to tweet, not

the obituary. So You

know, that that graffiti didn’t say

who’s a obituary we would wake up to one day, but we all knew who they would. So

my so my final question then. Which we’ll judge whether that our friendship has really blossomed or not is when it happens. Can we face that? Oh,

absolutely. Lovely. Thank y’all so much

for coming. It’s so grateful.

You have to hug it

out. Hug it out. Thank

you. Bye.