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Jeffrey Epstein’s Secrets (with Julie K. Brown) | The Next Level Sunday

January 14, 2024
Notes
Transcript
Tim speaks with Polk Award winning author Julie K. Brown about the recent batch of documents released regarding the Epstein case as well as her book ‘Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story’. Julie K Brown is an investigative reporter for the Miami Herald.

Buy Perversion of Justice: The Jeffrey Epstein Story here: https://www.amazon.com/Perversion-Justice-Jeffrey-Epstein-Story/dp/006300058X

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This transcript was generated automatically and may contain errors and omissions. Ironically, the transcription service has particular problems with the word “bulwark,” so you may see it mangled as “Bullard,” “Boulart,” or even “bull word.” Enjoy!
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:08

    Hello. Welcome to the next level Sunday interview. I am Tim Miller. We’ve got a great one today. Julie k Brown, author of perversion of Justice to Jeffrey Epstein’s story, the number one authority on everything, Jeffrey Epstein, as all of these new documents have been coming out recently, I am sure like you have been struggling to separate fact from fiction.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:29

    And I just thought I need to find somebody that can tell us the truth about the story, what we know, what is still a mystery. And she does that marvelously. I am so grateful for her for doing this podcast, but for all the work that she did in tracking down these victims and really and being a key player ensuring that Jeffrey Epstein was brought to justice before he killed himself. And you’ll be interested to hear what she thinks about that. So Tewy K Brown is up next.
  • Speaker 1
    0:00:57

    This week, our schedule tomorrow, Monday. Martin Luther King Day is the Iowa caucus. Very strange choice for the people of Iowa, but on Martin Luther King Day as the cock is JV, l, and AB will be live on YouTube, Monday night, So take a look out for that. If you want live coverage, if you wanna click off MSNBC, though I’ll be on MSNBC at midnight eastern, so you can watch me if you want And then the next morning, Tuesday morning, we’re gonna have a day early, next level podcast. So we’ll be in your feed on Tuesday reacting to the results of Iowa.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:31

    And then Thursday, we will be live in San Francisco, and that live show will be in your feed Friday morning. So tons of stuff on this feed, send it to your friends, make sure you’ve downloaded it. Make sure you’ve commented on your Apple or Spotify about how much you love us and given us the five stars. We really appreciate it. We are in crunch time now at the Iowa caucuses, but here is your one hour break from all the political nonsense.
  • Speaker 1
    0:01:56

    Julie k Brown, with the Jeffrey Epstein story. But first, our pals and acid tongue, peace. Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark next level Sunday interview. I’m your host Tim Miller. I’m here with Julie K Brown, author of Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein story.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:27

    She’s a reporter for the Miami Harold. Julie, thank you so much for doing this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:32

    Thanks for having me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:34

    I am honored to have somebody on this podcast. I always am whose work I admire. And, so for me, this is gonna be a treat. For you, it’s possible it might be kind of the annoying conversation you have with a cousin at Thanksgiving where they grill you with questions about Jeffrey Epstein, and you just wanna, like, hang out. So I apologize for that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:02:52

    I’m used to it. That’s fine.
  • Speaker 1
    0:02:54

    I bet you’re used to it by now. Okay. So here’s how we got to this interview. I was on the internet, and I saw the phrase Stephen Hawking under age Orgy. And so I decided I finally had to read about this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:06

    And the person I needed to call to learn about it was Julie k Brown. So I don’t know how you feel about that, that you’re the name that comes to mind when people see even Hawking under age orgy, but that’s kind of where we’re at these days.
  • Speaker 2
    0:03:17

    Yeah. It is. Yeah, it’s a story that has taken on a life of its own all over the world. I think today I heard from, people in Venezuela, Ecuador, Australia you know, just people all over the place have kind of hitched on to this story, trying to do podcasts, trying to do magazine articles, all kinds of, you know, conspiracy theorists, etcetera.
  • Speaker 1
    0:03:43

    So give people for those who have not followed this closely. Just a brief origin story of you because you were on this when there weren’t people in Ecuador with weird conspiracy theories about it. And, you know, you were on this first really well, I guess the second time around you’re on it first. So talk to us how you got into the story and where, you know, where this came from in your life.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:04

    Well, this was one of those unsolved mysteries, I think, in Florida history, a lot of journalists had covered it probably about twenty years ago when the story first happened. And this was a a billionaire who had seemingly got away with a horrific crime. And no one seemed to be staying on top of it to find out how did this happen? Why did this happen? And it became a little bit more timely when Donald Trump nominated Alex Acosta to be labor secretary.
  • Speaker 2
    0:04:40

    Alex Acosta was the prosecutor who gave Jeffrey Epstein pretty lenient plea deal, even though everybody pretty much knew that he was trafficking young girls. So at that point, I thought it’s been a long time. Let’s look at this again, you know, similar to what a detective does with a cold case you know, you pull it all out, you dust it all off, and you just start from scratch. And that’s kind of what I decided to do, not knowing at all how big of a project it was gonna be and how long it was gonna take.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:15

    Yeah. So you’re at the Harold at the time.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:17

    Yes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:17

    So I went back and read your original stories this week and I there’s just so much gob smacking stuff in there. So, I I do think it’s kinda funny here at the Bulwark. Everything comes Trump. Even when I try not to talk about Trump, is it all comes back to Trump. So he appoints Acosta.
  • Speaker 1
    0:05:31

    And for folks who like me needed a refresher, I mean, this plea deal is just unbelievably outrageous. And so kind of walk people back through that, you know, which was kind of the original thing that you were looking at after he gets appointed to the cabinet and talk about the backstory of the Acosta plea deal.
  • Speaker 2
    0:05:50

    Right? Well, he managed somehow to get a deal that nobody probably in the world that trafficked girls would have ever gotten. So the question was, how did this happen and why did it happen? And in order to to figure that out. I had to go back through all the court records, and there were literally thousands and thousands of documents.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:12

    And on top of that, you know, I thought to myself the the victims now are in their late twenties, early thirties. And I wonder what they think of the fact that this man who basically let their predator off the hook is now appointed to one of the largest agencies in our government with oversight of human trafficking and child labor laws. So part of the project also branched out into me trying to see if I could find out any of the victims, and also to learn what they went through. And how were they treated by the criminal justice system? Up until this time, a lot of the coverage that, lingered about Epstein had more to do with celebrityism of it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:06:54

    It had to do with, you know, the pedophile Island, the Lita Express airplane, whether Trump and Clinton were involved. It was very salacious, tabloid ish kind of coverage that was lingering, but there was nothing that was really digging into the court records and finding out exactly why this happened, and whether there was any corruption involved in the fact that he had gotten pretty much gotten off, you know, because he wasn’t federally prosecuted for the crimes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:25

    And he’s able to walk around. I’m but just on Acosta first, the deal is struck Acosta is in Florida, right, is the local cuter. So he gets prosecuted in Florida, not federally. And there is a secret deal, which I guess you can talk about where The victims don’t even know about the deal. The judge doesn’t even know how many girls were victimized.
  • Speaker 1
    0:07:46

    The judge didn’t even know. And they cut this sweetheart deal where he gets like thirteen months or something in Florida, but he doesn’t even even isn’t even in jail for the thirteen months. He gets to walk around I on the street. I so just provide a little bit more color into the nature of just how outrageous this deal has given the the scope of the crime.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:06

    Well, first of all, they changed the charges so that he only pleaded to one of the victims. Remember there were probably about twenty five to thirty girls who were thirteen fourteen in that range that were victims. And they knew they had these girls, you know, if the FBI had them, they had interviewed them, they had a list of victims. And despite that, they instead of picking one of the young girls, they were you know, his lawyers were brilliant. He had some of the best lawyers money could buy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:08:37

    You know, he had Alan Dershwitz, he had, Kenneth Star, you know, he had a lot of people who were connected. He was brilliant in the fact that he picked lawyers that were connected to the prosecutors. In other words, these were lawyers who had previously been pals with some of the prosecutors on the case. So They managed to allow him to plead guilty to one of the victims who was seventeen instead of thirteen or fourteen. And by doing that, the charge wasn’t as serious because it was an older girl.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:12

    So for example, in some of the states, if you’re a convicted sex offender and the victim is seventeen, you’re you don’t have as many restrictions as you would if you, you know, sexually abuse someone who is thirteen, for example, So right there, they twisted it and manipulated it so that the charges that he pleaded to were not as serious. And then when they finally went to court and they allowed him to plead guilty to these minor state charges. They didn’t even tell the judge that there were other victims. So the judge just said, okay. Well, you agreed to this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:09:46

    You agreed to that. Okay. Goodbye. You know, they agreed to the thirteen months. And initially, the judge said he’s not getting work release, and that his lawyers managed to somehow manipulate the court system so that then he did get work release.
  • Speaker 2
    0:10:01

    They just kept pushing and pushing and pushing until they got exactly what they wanted, which is you know, in our criminal justice system, that’s not the way it’s supposed to work.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:12

    Yeah. Jay Leftkowitz was another one of those lawyers. Like, all these Bush era types that knew that worked with Acosta and the bush air. I I knew it was a sweetheart deal, but then you just read these stories and the first story that you did, I went and looked at. And you have the pictures of the handful of young women, but then there were girls at the time, you know, who’d agreed to go on the record with you.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:32

    And, I mean, It just is heart rending. Like, you, I can, I can almost couldn’t even look at the pictures? I’d, like, scroll back down to the, you know, because you see how young they are. And they’re just, it’s so young. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:10:44

    And and I just wonder there, like, how was that for you? Like, starting to talk to them and and, you know, gain their confidence and, you know, a lot of them probably had moved on with life and were maybe trying to block it away. What was that experience like?
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:00

    It was hard. I did a lot of research ahead of time and spoke with some experts about it. I spoke with an FBI agent who whose career was based on interviewing children who had been sexually abused. And and other people like that who sort of guided me a little bit on on how to handle the questioning of them. And and the other part of it was I didn’t make them talk about the sexual abuse itself.
  • Speaker 2
    0:11:26

    I really wanted them to talk about the criminal justice system and how they were treated And that was exactly what they had been dying to talk about because they were treated like prostitutes they were treated horribly, not only by Jeffrey Epstein, but by and the criminal justice system, but even some of their own lawyers took advantage of them by settling these cases for very small amounts. You know, it’s just to pocket some money because they knew these girls needed money. So they were used in multiple ways by the system, and that’s what they had been dying to talk about. And I think And I know they were unburdened almost by finally having someone talk to them about how they were treated.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:09

    Yeah. I love that. I mean, the one thing that you know, circling about on the prostitution, you said that word. And I was reading all Bulwark, like, they’re saying they’re calling in prostitutes, calling prostitutes, and I just want I mean, it’s just absurd. Like, when you learned what actually happened and they’re recruiting these girls from the mall and, like, they’re they’re girls that are financial problems at home, and he’s giving them three hundred bucks, and they’re tricking, you know, then you get to this rich guy’s house, and they’re tricking him into this.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:33

    And it’s like the Nate, I could call that a prospect. I you know what I mean? It’s just absurd. I do wonder. So, like, I I assume that when you’re talking that right, like, That’s another way they were victimized.
  • Speaker 1
    0:12:42

    Right? I mean, I assume some of them felt like, oh, maybe I did do something bad. Right? You know what I mean? Right?
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:47

    Yes. Yes. They were ashamed. A lot of them were very, very ashamed. Many of them, probably to this day, have never told anybody that this happened to them.
  • Speaker 2
    0:12:57

    This was the worst thing ever happened in many of their lives. Some of them couldn’t survive, you know, two of them that we know of became you know, drug, addicts and died, you know. And I could see this when I started looking at each, I started, you know, a list And I could see what these girls were like. There was life before Jeffrey, and there was life after Jeffrey. And you could see how this had completely changed their lives, you know, even if they only went there and w one time, you know, it it affected really affected their lives.
  • Speaker 1
    0:13:33

    So you start to look at this cold case and then you, you know, dig into it and see all the I get what point did you just realize the you know, it was there a moment that it just sunk in, like, the scope of what you are undertaking and just how how great it was compared to, like, what you expected.
  • Speaker 2
    0:13:48

    Yeah. I think when I interviewed the first victim, and she told me the story of what had happened. I was with my videographer, photographer, Emily Michelle, who was a big part of the project, and we went to a rural town outside of Tennessee to interview her. And we were there for like, I don’t know, four hours, and she told us her whole story. And when we left there, I still, actually feeling chills right now.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:15

    We were just speechless. We we couldn’t talk. We couldn’t talk. We were so dumbfounded at at what had happened. And, I mean, it was at that moment we realized we had a, we had a big story.
  • Speaker 2
    0:14:30

    We really did have a big story. Because by that time, I knew how much he had manipulated the system. Everybody knew he got a sweetheart deal, but nobody, I think, really understood what that meant as far as these victims were concerned. And and as far as this our criminal justice system, is concerned, you know.
  • Speaker 1
    0:14:50

    Yeah. I was listening to you do another discussion of this, and you reached all these guess they’re young women, but, you know, there are women at this point by male.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:01

    Right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:02

    Well, talk about that. Like, talk about how you tracked everybody down.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:05

    I’ve done this before when pe I know people are reluctant to talk to me because when you pick up the f you can’t just knock on their door. I had tried that initially. You go knock on the door and you know, somebody answers. And Surprise,
  • Speaker 1
    0:15:17

    I wanna talk about the worst day of your life.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:19

    Yeah. And and and it’s your husband, and you never told your husband this ever happened. So how do you, you know? And so I just put together some of the information that I was trying you know, I sort of outlined what I was trying to do. And I said, you know, the thing about this story that has never come out is you, your voice.
  • Speaker 2
    0:15:43

    The victim’s voices were never told in this whole story. And that’s what I want. I want your voice in here. And, you know, I didn’t get a lot of response from the letters, but I did get the what I thought was the most important interview as a result. In fact, the woman called me up, and she said, you know, my lawyer told me not to talk to you.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:06

    I said, yeah. Well, that doesn’t surprise me.
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:10

    Yeah. Sure. Well, your lawyer didn’t get you that good of a deal. So maybe you should stop listening to him.
  • Speaker 2
    0:16:14

    Yes. So, and, you know, she was reluctant the whole time, and I didn’t know whether she was at one point gonna say, I’m sorry. I don’t want you to use my story, which I would have really had to honor, but I was just, you know, so touched by the fact that she called me after she did the interview, and she said, you know, I feel so much better that I finally finally told somebody how I felt about it. So I I think it in unburden some of the women, you
  • Speaker 1
    0:16:46

    know. Well, I mean, the tiniest of silver linings, but that is a heartwarming to hear. I want to go through some of the other kind of things that You know, then then you do, you write these story and the series comes out and then, you know, this just becomes the biggest story in the world, right? Like, it just unspools And, you know, some of the other kind of threads that have come out of this that were not the things that you are initially looking at. So, like, going back to the, just starting from the start, One of the things that I’ve never been able to untangle that I’m hoping you can help me untangle some of this because you can’t it’s impossible to know fact from fiction on Jeffrey Like, I got, you know, and I mean, except for reading Julie k Brown, I’m like, does this person know what the fuck they’re talking about?
  • Speaker 1
    0:17:32

    Is this, like, what’s real? What’s just you know, an accusation, Epstein at the beginning of all this. Like, where is his money from? Do we even know that yet? Like, what the origin story is of this?
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:45

    I think he was a huge con artist, to be honest with you. That’s what I always tell people. He managed to hook up with some very, very wealthy people. He was very bright. I mean, he skipped a grade in school.
  • Speaker 2
    0:17:56

    He was, you know, a math whiz. You know, he was he was not Dom. He was very brilliant. And I think that he managed to manipulate people to position himself into the financial world. And then from there, he hooked up with people like Les Waxner who really gave him almost control of his finances and all his money in some respects.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:22

    And from him, I I’m sure that he got other people in the same way And then he, you know, found ways to help them launder their money. That’s essentially what he was doing. He was finding ways so that they wouldn’t have to have such a huge tax burden. And I think that that was the bulk of how he got started. And then so we now know that he you know, also hitched his wagon to some big banks and made, you know, brought some customers into those banks.
  • Speaker 2
    0:18:52

    And, you know, I think this the sex trafficking thing also, I’m sure he made, you know, a lot of money off of that because you know, there were a lot of influential men that he was attached to who would call him. I mean, we know from the the phone messages the police found out his mansion when they finally searched it in Palm Beach. There were, you know, all kinds of people calling him and saying, at the hotel down here in Palm Beach, Why would somebody call him and tell them that they’re staying in rooms such and such at a hotel in Palm Beach unless they wanted him to send him a girl? So You know, that was all, you know, added to his income too. I’m sure.
  • Speaker 1
    0:19:31

    Yeah. And then, you mentioned, he’s been on one of his on my list here for people to ask about less flex Victoria’s Secret, and, you know, said that he he handed over a lot of his financials to him. And is that, I guess we don’t know. But is that a quid pro quote situation is that he really thought this guy was smart with money. It was very, like, Les Wexner is a person who kind of seems like he’s kind of gotten off Scott free in all this.
  • Speaker 2
    0:19:54

    Yeah. I don’t know the answer to that. I mean, certainly I’ve been saying for a long time that, you know, there’s no way that Jeffrey Epstein could have done this all by himself self. There was no way he could have done it just with Elon Maxwell. There were a lot of people around him that helped him he could not have done this alone.
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:12

    And I think that there were various people in high places that were helping him, but, you know, they’ve managed to you know, hide, you know. And I think to some degree, our criminal justice system is still protecting them.
  • Speaker 1
    0:20:25

    Yeah. You’d be speculating on what they’re doing within the criminal justice system, but as a journalist, I guess you might have some, insight into this and without revealing sources or whatever. But, like, did you were you getting bullied by these people? You know, and I was reading your stories talking about how the the local prosecutors and police were, but after that happened, I did you feel threatened by the Epstein than his associates?
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:47

    You know, I covered some pretty bad stories, you know, bad people. You know, and I always said that when I covered the Florida prison system, I was more worried about my life than I was when I was covering Jeffrey Epstein because
  • Speaker 3
    0:20:59

    all
  • Speaker 2
    0:20:59

    in the Florida prison system are pretty bad. I was so you know, I did this pretty much under the radar. Certainly at some point Jeffrey Epstein and his lawyers knew what I was doing, but it was until I purposely kept it under, wraps I wanted to protect the women that I knew were talking to me. I didn’t want them to know right away. So, And also Jeffrey Epstein, you know, he thought I got off.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:26

    I got away with it. He he figured he had gotten away. Oh, it’s just another you know, Miami Harold reporter doing the same kind of story. I think if I was from the New York Times asking those questions, he would have worried more. But I think he just figured he had already gotten away with the crime, and he didn’t have anything to worry about.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:46

    Acosta was one element of what kind of kick started the story. But the other element was that at the time, there was the Trump accuser. I think it was a pseudonym Katie Johnson.
  • Speaker 2
    0:21:55

    Right.
  • Speaker 1
    0:21:56

    That’s a story that kind of just died, you know, do do we know whatever happened to the, you know, trump Epstein accuser?
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:04

    I mean, not yes and no. Here’s the thing. These kind of men that do these kinds of crime, prey on women that are You know, sometimes they’re very vulnerable. They’re very messed up mentally. They have a lot of problems.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:21

    And that Katie Johnson was one of those people that really had a lot of had a history of problems. And I think they easily intimidated her whether her story is true or false. I don’t think we’ll ever know because she managed to just you know, somehow disappear because she was being threatened, you know, and I think the same is true for some of the other women still that we know of in this case who some of these powerful men have tried to intimidate. It’s very hard to go up against these powerful people. I read the Katie Johnson thing.
  • Speaker 2
    0:22:57

    Remember, when I also took up the story, Actually, initially, it was right when Trump was running. It was right before the election. And I wondered about it myself and and started picking at that but I sort of kept hitting a wall because she just went underground. And, you know, one or two people that I knew who had contact with her basically said she’s not gonna talk to anybody. She’s scared to death.
  • Speaker 2
    0:23:22

    So I don’t think we really know the answer to that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:23:25

    Yeah. My whole vision of all the stuff changed when I did and just like so just the most minor thing compared to the kind of work you’ve been doing, but I I did one PR in between when I was in politics and and and doing this stuff now. I I was I used to do PR, and I had a pro bono client that was unbelievably successful, powerful woman that sexually harassed and and wanted to go public with it and, you know, needed, oh, I think the fact that I had used to be a Republican I should feel like maybe people take me more seriously. And so I helped her pro bono and and was, the very influential a q z. I mean, you know, I know in a peripheral level, obviously, it’s hard to come forward.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:05

    Obviously, there’s shame. Obviously, you’re gonna get, you know, attacked. But the degree to which these men go after the women. And just the internalization of it really opened my eyes and to, like, how hard it is. For these p for them to come forward.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:21

    You know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:22

    It’s it it’s vicious. I mean, look at Virginia and Du Frey. I mean, she was engaged in that battle with Dershowitz for years. And he was, you know, he was talk about a bully. I mean, he was not letting go, you know.
  • Speaker 2
    0:24:37

    And you know, so and I also got phone calls from victims who told me things about certain men who said, There’s no way I can go forward because they’ll just eat me alive.
  • Speaker 1
    0:24:49

    Yeah. The Dershowitz thing, and one of your original stories you know, some of the one of the unsum of the unsung heroes here, the local Palm Beach, police and a prosecutor, and those are great characters. Yeah. You know, because they’re getting bullied too, but Epstein and his associates, and and you know, they’re all these young girls are thirteen or fourteen, and and this is this goes so far back. It’s like MySpace or something.
  • Speaker 1
    0:25:12

    And Dershowitz is going down there, showing them, like, one of the young girls drinking or smoking a joint on their My based page. And the, you know, and the local law enforcement officials are like, what? So a teenager has to not have ever had a single drink in order to be sexually assaulted Like, they’ll Yeah. But, like, dosage was such a Bulwark. You know, to these little young girls.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:34

    Yeah. Yeah. It was horrible. Really horrible. And a lot of that never came out, really.
  • Speaker 2
    0:25:41

    A lot of that wasn’t ever made public. You know, is also part of the system and how it mistreated these victims from the very get go. They also went after their parents You know? S estranged parents, you know, one of them got arrested for something, a tax issue. It wasn’t even anything major.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:00

    You know, they were doing dossiers on these girls, you know, and their whole families. And, you know, they’re these are thirteen and fourteen year old kids. I mean, it was horrible. Some of the girls had even watched, you know, a sibling being killed by her step brother. You know, this is how damaged some of them were.
  • Speaker 2
    0:26:19

    So you can imagine that many of them, why they just disappeared and never went public or could go public.
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:26

    Thing that pissed me off so much rereading your stories. There’s this, like, conventional wisdom, which is, you know, everybody deserves a lawyer. Everybody deserves a good defense. And, like, that, that’s true. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:26:36

    But, like, not every lawyer needs to accept every case that requires intimidating and going after the family members of thirteen year old girl. Who were fucking raped. You know, like, that’s actually not part of the, you know, code of conduct for for legal officers. And a lot of these guys what’s and others get away with that because they use that as cover and just saying, oh, this is just all part of the defense. Like, that’s not actually actually right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:00

    Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it’s chilling. It’s chilling really what they did to these girls.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:07

    I wanna talk about the most recent stuff. By Virginia, and and you just said that her name is pronounced Jeffrey.
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:12

    Dufray. Yes.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:13

    Duufray. This has been the thing that’s been the hardest for me to untangle. Right? So basically this latest tranche of information that has arisen. Came from her lawsuit against Charlene Maxwell.
  • Speaker 1
    0:27:24

    Right? And and it’s the documents from that lawsuit. And it’s like, pages and pages of PDFs and, you know, people on Twitter with political, you know, interests are just tweeting like one sentence and of it or, you know, one screenshot and it’s hard to, like, to suss out, like he’s everybody that was named in this part of it or where some, you know, I know it’s it’s really hard to suss out the information. So, you’ve written a couple of stories following up on this. Like, what would for you were the main kind of takeaways from this latest tranche of information that came out from that lawsuit?
  • Speaker 2
    0:27:56

    Well, just remember, we started to try to get this unsealed five years ago. And the first batch that was unsealed was unsealed the day before they found Epstein dead in his cell. In other words, the biggest batch that was the most revealing of his sex trafficking and included names of very prominent men. Was way back in twenty nineteen on the day before he died. After that happens, the court sort of went, whoa.
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:27

    We better take a new look at this and not just throw all this out there. So then they kinda clogged back everything and decided we’re not gonna do it this way. We’re gonna, you know, it took us five years to get everything then, and and they did it in dribs and drabs.
  • Speaker 1
    0:28:44

    So It’s like whose decision is that? Who is, like, the who who is?
  • Speaker 2
    0:28:47

    It was the court system. It was the courts. The courts are another, in my view, another big problem. With this whole story because they sealed so much information. Remember, they kept the the non prosecution, the secret non prosecution agreement They kept this court’s kept it sealed.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:05

    You know?
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:06

    And was it still sealed when you that secret non prosecution agreement? Was that still sealed when you were doing the original stories? No.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:11

    It had been unsealed, but it was unsealed after he was released from jail. So there was nothing that the victims could do to change it. Because they were very clever in the way that the timing of it. So everything was done deliberately. Everything was done by design so that it could prevent EPstein and other people from going to jail.
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:33

    And that and that’s basically what happened.
  • Speaker 1
    0:29:35

    Yeah. So then this last so finally, it gets unsealed this latest batch five years later. And what did you learn from it?
  • Speaker 2
    0:29:42

    Well, the bottom line is I don’t know what happened with the internet and Twitter and the crazies on there started saying this was going to be some kind of a list of clients, which it never I knew it would never was. I put out a tweet saying that’s not what this is. This has been going on for years now, and this is just the final batch. I knew it wasn’t gonna be some big, you know, smoking gun of you know, here’s all the people that abuse girls, but somehow this took a life of its own on, social media. And I kinda had got the brunt of it because they’re like, well, why?
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:18

    What is all this? I think people felt cheated. Like, they were waiting for something really big out of it.
  • Speaker 3
    0:30:23

    Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:30:24

    And so, you know, what I my point is this was all part of one big sex trafficking operation, and it had been sealed. And the only way that we’re going to hold people accountable is is if we have the information, our courts aren’t supposed to seal things like that. And so I think it was important, to know, to unseal it because there were more details about exactly how that opera how he worked that up ration. Howie manipulated people who was, to some degree, who was involved. I mean, we’ve we had, names that we sort of knew, but Virginia and her deposition that was just unsealed.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:02

    That’s one of the new documents. Her full deposition was unsealed. She said she was traffic to Lexwexner at least five times. I mean, we didn’t know that before. We knew his name There was a lot of speculation about him, but we didn’t see her sworn deposition that said she was with him five times that she was with Dershowitz multiple times.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:24

    She named it like most of the places that she claims that she had sex with Dershowitz. She talked about a little bit about you know, Prince Andrew and how that happened. A lot of information about exactly what Gailen Maxwell’s role was in this and how she you know, they they flew girls to the island. They took their passports and basically wouldn’t let them leave. So they were forced essentially to have sex with Epstein and others.
  • Speaker 2
    0:31:54

    They had nowhere to go because they’re stuck on an island. I mean, they’re It’s just a horrific when you put all the pieces together, and this was part of, I think, a bigger, you know, a bigger picture of his sex traffic cooperation and and who has evolved to some degree and how Epstein and and Maxwell and Jean Luke Burnell, who was a French modeling scout who was also involved in it.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:19

    Yeah. This was the other part that was hard for me to, figure out the timeline. So The island stuff is happening, right, after he gets out. Yeah. Of of jail.
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:29

    If you don’t even call it jail with a, you know, that thirteen months. Right? And and so that is this period between whatever that, you know, the mid aughts to when you’re doing the story again in six seventeen. But that point is well known. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:32:42

    And so to me, it’s like, okay, you know, maybe you can be a friend of Epstein in nineteen ninety nine or two thousand and two and not really know what’s going on. Right? But but by if you’re going to that island, the late two thousand or, you know, and or early twenty ten’s. Right? Like, everybody knew.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:01

    Right? It’s not like there’s no plausible deniability here. Is there?
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:04

    Well, remember, the charge that he pleaded guilty to was solicitation of a minor under the age of eighteen. She was seventeen.
  • Speaker 1
    0:33:14

    Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:14

    So he was telling people, which was true. I made a mistake. This girl told me she was over age. She wasn’t. She was seventeen, and it was just one charge.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:26

    It was also a conspiracy charge, but it was essentially a very minor prostitution charge. So he would say that to people. Annie would dangle money in front of academics and researchers who wanted his money, and he somehow was able to you know, wash his reputation. There were he hired a PR firm. There were press releases that it said that Jeffrey Epstein Foundation is giving money to schools in India.
  • Speaker 2
    0:33:56

    You know, I mean, on and on, if you look back, There’s all this stuff that he was giving money to all these people, and he used that to kinda launder his reputation. So it’s no excuse.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:07

    Yeah. No. I know. I know you’re not excusing, but I’m just I’m because I was trying to understand. Right?
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:11

    Because that and so that’s really basically it. Right? So he’s doing the mid two thousands kind of his argument to all these people as well was a just a seventeen year old. Like, they don’t because it was sealed, they don’t know that there are all these thirteen and fourteen year old girls.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:26

    Right. And it didn’t get the publicity in our country quite frankly, the way it did overseas because the British media went not so over prince Andrew.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:36

    Right.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:37

    And they covered it quite frankly, a lot more aggressive than the media in our country covered it over the years. And that was another big surprise when I went back to look at it. I thought, didn’t anybody write about this stuff? I mean, this is outrageous. There was a very little coverage of it in our country.
  • Speaker 1
    0:34:55

    Enraging. And during that whole time, he’s doing the same stuff.
  • Speaker 2
    0:34:58

    He is. He sort of was a little bit more careful. He went for women that were more on the borderline between he wasn’t going for the thirteen, fourteen year olds, although he didn’t give that up completely, but he was more doing women who were, you know, eighteen, nineteen, who were of age, but here’s the thing. It’s still trafficking because what he did was the same MO. What he did was he used fraud and coercion.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:23

    He promised them he was gonna help them. He never said I’m hiring you to have sex. And in exchange, I will put you through school. He didn’t do it that way. He he said, I want you to give me a massage.
  • Speaker 2
    0:35:37

    And he groomed them. And he said, if you keep doing this, I’m gonna help you with your schooling. I’m gonna help you become famous. You know? So that’s fraud and coercion, which is still essentially illegal what he was doing.
  • Speaker 1
    0:35:52

    Yeah. And so we don’t really know the details. Obviously, there are some testimony in the thing, but like the in the Bill Clinton era, when he’s hanging out with him, it’s this later kind of era. Right? You know, that’s not really the Palm Beach House where they’re bringing over the thirteenth fourteen year old girls.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:06

    It’s the Lolita Express. It’s going to be Island.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:08

    We know that even after he was in trouble and he served you know, that cushy jail term, you know, he was donating money to the Clinton Foundation. Geland Maxwell was going to you know, weddings, social events, and
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:23

    And these people have an Apple research firm. Okay. So I so I I get it. I get it if you’re you know, I don’t get it. It’s okay.
  • Speaker 1
    0:36:29

    But if you’re, you know, an academic and this guy swoops in and says, here’s five hundred grand, you know, maybe do a cursory Google, but like the Clinton’s knew what was happening. You know, they couldn’t tell you the backstory. You don’t get on a plane with somebody and not look at it.
  • Speaker 2
    0:36:41

    Everybody did. I mean, the Harvard certainly, you know, that’s been one of the, surprising things to me is that, to some degree, Harvard’s never really been held accountable for everything that they let him do. You know, they took all that money and, and gave them an office, you know, and they’ve never really explained. And their scientists went
  • Speaker 3
    0:37:00

    to a surprise Well, they’ve
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:01

    got minor plagiarism issues that they gotta focus on. You can’t you can’t focus on helping whitewash underage sex traffickers if you’re Harvard. Okay. I’ve I wanna get into the conspiracy stuff, but I do have to ask about the house on the island. That’s the other thing that it’s the Steven Hawking and the, like, what what was with the weird house?
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:17

    Do we know?
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:19

    Oh, you look like a pyramid? Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:22

    Yeah.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:22

    That was really a music, conservatory. Everybody was saying
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:26

    Music conservatory. Okay.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:27

    Oddies are buried there or anything. You know, I don’t really believe that that
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:31

    This is like the Denver airport situation where it’s, you know, they’re just an internet.
  • Speaker 2
    0:37:35

    He had really weird taste in furnishings and decor. He just they just had a auction of his last remaining things from his Palm Beach House up in Palm Beach, and I was looking online at the items that they were selling. They were the most garish things I’ve ever seen. He really had some really odd taste in, you know, furnishings.
  • Speaker 1
    0:37:58

    Red flag. The whole thing is I’m reading it. Right? The the oh, Epstein didn’t kill himself. Well, let’s just start there.
  • Speaker 1
    0:38:11

    Do you think Epstein killed himself?
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:12

    No. I don’t think he killed himself. Now, I think that it’s possible that he asked someone to help him But he I don’t think he was capable when you think about how he died. And remember, he allegedly kneeled on the floor and pulled his own body weight himself to break three bones in his neck. I just don’t think that he he was not a big guy.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:36

    I mean, he was a very slight guy. He was very frail at the time that, you know, they arrested him. He couldn’t have He just could not have killed himself that way. So is it possible that he wanted to die? And he said to some you know, this is happens in prison all the time, by the way.
  • Speaker 2
    0:38:54

    Pedophiles are like primo, you know, they want to get rid of them right away. You know, I covered, as I said, prison for many years. And they don’t live long in prison anyway. So I don’t think it would have been too hard for him to say, I want you to, you know, take care of me. So I do think possible that happened, but I don’t think that he had the power.
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:15

    I mean, he couldn’t even tie his own shoelaces. He had Butler’s that did everything for him.
  • Speaker 3
    0:39:21

    So
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:21

    So he couldn’t even tie his own shoelaces so he couldn’t kill himself. So you we’re on the job. I’ve seen didn’t kill himself side of things. Now, that whatever theory is coded on the internet right now as, like, a right wing theory, right, that it’s the deep state wanted to kill Epstein because they didn’t want it to be revealed whatever that that they had pizza parlor sex ring or whatever with the Clinton. So, you know
  • Speaker 2
    0:39:43

    Right now, it’s not any longer the pizza gate. Now it’s the right, you know, it’s not the Hillary Clinton pizza gate thing. It’s now the right conspiracy.
  • Speaker 1
    0:39:53

    I think they’re together. Yeah. I think that’s what I’m saying. I think that there’s all part of one big QAnon, frazzled drip, you know, there’s a pizza parlor and the Clinton’s and and and they’re more Democrats even realize that there’s more deep state people out there. That are on the left, and they don’t wanna be exposed, the the extent of their pedophilia, and so they had to kill to quiet down.
  • Speaker 3
    0:40:13

    Oh, so
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:14

    it is the left. They’re saying it’s the the democrat. Yeah.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:17

    It’s the Democrats. That’s what I’m saying. It’s coded. Like, it’s the right wing that makes this argument more often
  • Speaker 2
    0:40:21

    than not.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:22

    Right? Like, you’re seeing right wingers online that are saying this. And, like, that just doesn’t check out with me. I, I, I have no idea what happened, but as I, as I’m reading everything from all this, you know, and just thinking logically, it would be I guess if you’re gonna be a conspiracy theorist, it would be easier to flip it on its head. Like, in twenty nineteen, Donald Trump was president.
  • Speaker 1
    0:40:42

    Alex Acosta was the secretary of labor, the guy that came up seeing the sweetheart deal. Bill Barr is the attorney general who’s friends with left blitz and and Ken Star and and the people that you were talking about that were that lapsed Epstein had on his payroll And Trump had been, you know, with Epstein at Epstein properties. And so, you know, to me, if there’s a conspiracy, I feels like it should be should be going the other way. And so I’m sure you get asked about this sort of stuff all the time. Like, we’re like, what is your What’s your fee?
  • Speaker 1
    0:41:13

    Like, why do you think that that is?
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:16

    Here’s the problem. This whole thing has been shrouded in secrecy for so long. You know, so many documents sealed, so many things done in secret, poor documents just, you know, even with the documents we just got, there’s names that are still redact it in there. You know, two I had sex with two prominent politician. So and so, and then the other ones blacked out, and we don’t know why.
  • Speaker 2
    0:41:41

    I mean, this is why we have conspiracy theories because so much of this story has been kept, you know, secret and has been sealed by courts and, you know, and so, and even his death. We’ve never really seen, the report into the investigation into his death. Did they interview the guards that were on duty? They were charged with lying on their reports, but then they got a plea deal. Now they’re not talking.
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:08

    You know? So this is why these conspiracy theories grow and perpetuate themselves, you know, I don’t put a lot of stock in them, you know, I certainly believe that there’s another truth probably out there somewhere, but I, you know, I don’t
  • Speaker 3
    0:42:22

    believe that.
  • Speaker 1
    0:42:23

    I do attribute that just to, like, Bureaucratic inertia and Bulwark, or do you attribute it to, like, actual plotting to protect people?
  • Speaker 2
    0:42:34

    I think there’s definitely an element of protecting people. I know for a fact that some of the lawyers even involved in the case have tried to protect some of the men that were involved in it. I think it’s a boys club, quite frankly. And like I always say, when people ask me about Clinton Trump, I always say, you know, his sexual assault doesn’t discriminate based on political party. There are people we know in both sides of the aisle that have committed these misdeeds And it had nothing to do with politics.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:01

    Rate has to do with power. And, you know, it, it really is, I think, a boys club where they’ve been protecting themselves. And to some degree, I think that’s why Elon Maxwell is the only one in jail right now. I think that, you know, there are still people who are being protected.
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:17

    Yeah. What’d you think about Trump’s kind of friendly response to the mat to Maxwell being jailed? Is that just trump being trump or is there
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:24

    something? Yeah. I think a little bit was Trump being Trump. He, he kind of throws things out there like that, not even understanding the gravity of it
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:33

    anyone that’s nice to him, he’s nice too kind of thing. Anyone that’s mean to him is a pedophile.
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:38

    You know how he he is with his loyalists and she probably has never been disloyal to him, and I think that was part of it now. Probably my guess is they probably asked him whether he would pardon her. It surprised me if somebody didn’t go to him and ask that question. And we know now
  • Speaker 3
    0:43:54

    she wasn’t pardoned, so she’s still
  • Speaker 2
    0:43:54

    in jail. And, so
  • Speaker 1
    0:43:58

    Maybe Hope Springs eternal for Elaine in the in in the second term with dictator Trump farting her.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:04

    She’s hoping, I’m sure.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:07

    Okay. Do you get, this is that we’re out of time, but I wanna know, do you get your life back now? Do you get to spend time with your children? Do you get to, I don’t know, do stories on maybe soft profiles on on on women who’ve shown courage.
  • Speaker 3
    0:44:21

    I’ve been crying in mayhem. I just did a thing on the adolescents. I don’t know if you know about that case
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:26

    in Florida. The, professor at FSU was murdered by his brother-in-law. You know, Wendy Adelson was he was married to him. I don’t know if you know that case, but it’s
  • Speaker 3
    0:44:38

    a real No.
  • Speaker 1
    0:44:38

    I don’t know the case. Give us the one minute version. You can’t just leave us hanging like that.
  • Speaker 2
    0:44:41

    The one minute version is, family very well- to do. The, you know, Jewish family fixes the daughter up with a very, what they think is a good Jewish boy who’s a professor at FSU. The marriage goes south, and he pulls into his garage one day, and, two guys pop out and just riddled him with Bulwark, and then they conclude that the family, the the wife’s family planned it. So, yeah. So I still do those those kinds of stories.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:14

    And, yeah, I, I, I mostly focus on criminal justice I have a lot of people that want me to do more political stuff, but to be honest with you, I hate doing political stuff.
  • Speaker 1
    0:45:23

    Well, you’re doing Ron DeSantis what you’re doing. Next time in Miami, I wanna come give you squeeze. Thank you for all the reporting both both before this on the prison system and on Epstein and for educating me on this, fact from fiction. And, grateful for taking the time to, to do the podcast. We’ll keep an eye on that, the Florida State story, and and whatever else you got next.
  • Speaker 2
    0:45:43

    Okay. Thanks, Jim.
  • Speaker 1
    0:45:44

    Thanks so much, Julie. The book, one more time, Perversion of Justice, the Jeffrey Epstein story. You can follow her at the Miami Harold. And on x sometimes, Twitter dot com, whatever we’re calling it. And, we will see you guys back here on Tomorrow is the Iowa caucus.
  • Speaker 1
    0:46:00

    Tomorrow is the Iowa caucus. You’ll see JBL and AB live tomorrow night during the Iowa caucus, and we’re gonna have a special next all Tuesday morning. To respond to the results. Thanks again, Julie K Brand.
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