Mom, Kari Lake Keeps Touching Me!

Hello, and welcome to the Bullworks Next Level podcast. I’m your host Tim Miller with my Longtime BFF Suisse to be in an office together even, Sarah Longwell Ron DeSantis Bunch who is in for, JBL today, guys, before I get to you, we have we have a live show in DC on Thursday. This is your last chance. Sign up for that. Get tick tickets are running low.

Come hang out with us.

I don’t think we have many left. We’ve got, like, twenty.

Yeah. I know. So we can have a good time. As for this podcast, I’ve been noticing you guys have been falling down on your job on commenting on the Spotify and Apple App. So, you know, go in there, give us a review, give us a rate, talk about how I’m your favorite member of the trio, etcetera, etcetera.

We’re on reviews of the podcast really quick, we’ll get to our topics. I I did Pod Save America live in New Orleans on Friday. I was a little it was a little tipsy, which you might notice if you if you listen to it. But one interesting piece of feedback I got, there’s a little bit of a good news, bad news situation. Those boys are loyal listeners of the next level.

Even over other political podcasts, like that their boss, like their former boss does a political podcast that people talk about, they listen to us instead. So loyal listeners which is nice. Bad news is they don’t like the name. Don’t like the name mentioned it live on stage that they don’t like the name and they want us to reconsider renaming the next level in twenty twenty four. John Lovett.

You know, maybe this says more about John Lovett than about the podcast. I don’t know, but he’s like, I always forget it, and it’s hard to Google. You know, he he’s, like, he’s, like, Tim Miller Secret Podcast. And and so, anyway, something to Something to pray on Sarah Longwell podcast, then you get the focus group. So just it’s something to pray on.

I’m not saying we change it. I’m just I’m always open to constructive feedback from loyal listeners even if they are neo liberal shills with a competitor podcast. Wait.

Hold on. That is interesting. Do they have a suggestion? Because if you recall, but we were trying to pick a name, This was, like, just the one we could all agree on because it was so benign. Like, we couldn’t I forget what we wanna I wanted to call it, like, the right stuff for something and you hated that because you didn’t wanna be so, like, not alright.

So great. We’ll take suggestions, not just criticism.

Yeah. We’ll take feed. We’ll take we’ll take feedback in the comments. Okay. None to do this.

We’ve got Tim Scott did drop out of the race. We’re not gonna lead with that. That’s not a block a top but for people who are dying to get our takes about Tim Scott, that will be coming. What I wanted to start with was Jonathan Martin, friend of the Bulwark, wrote a, column yesterday in politico that was not well received in Biden Will Saletan just let’s just be clear. That listed all of the, you know, bedwetting political strategists, anonymous advice that he could hoover up for for Joe Biden.

And, kind of ran through all of it, all the things that democratic strategists who are who still wanna be invited to the White House Christmas party, so won’t say it on the record complain about. All things that they want from Joe Biden. I love Jay Mart to be honest. I thought it was a little overwrought the column, but I thought the concept was interesting, and it might be you know, we’re we’re just over one or just under rather one year out from the election. Might be a good way to start, to use that as a prompt maybe, and all of us could give are one piece of pro bono advice to Joe Biden as he as as he stares down the barrel of just a fucking rematch with Donald Trump for some reason.

Which which we’re gonna we’re gonna get to next. So who who wants to go first? We we’ve not prepped. I don’t know what your guys’ advice is gonna be. I know what mine is.

I’m a little concerned being Sarah of the same advice, actually. So I’m I’m, like, frantically trying to think of a backup. But Okay. I’m gonna go

first then. Okay. Yeah. To make sure. Because my piece of advice has remained the same the entire time.

When I was on with Jen Saki, the thing I was really pressing has her on was not why isn’t Biden out there more, but why don’t they have more surrogates? They now have this bench. A really good bet Right? They’ve got their Whitmers, they got their shapiro’s, they got West Moore. They got Abigail Spamburger, Elizabeth Slockin, Mikey Sheryl, all these, like, women who were CIA agents and

Kuvitoro team at Avigail Spangberger. By the way, congrats to a friend of the block. Avigail Spannberger run for governor, Virginia.

And so this seems to me like a huge missed opportunity for them to put both a younger face on the party to give people a sense of what the future of the democratic party could be. And to have people out there selling Biden’s agenda. And I’ve always been I’ve always wondered, like, why this isn’t happening already? And is it because these people don’t wanna carry water for Biden? Is it because Biden is not inviting them into it?

And this is one of the things that in the piece, Jay Mart kinda hit on that made it sound like the big problem is the White House isn’t asking for this. And that if the White House was asking, hey, guys, Like, let’s all have a meeting at the White House. Let’s talk about, you know, how to go out and sell the agenda. Like, that seems to me to be the lowest hanging fruit. And the only person who does it really is Gavin Newsom.

Right?

There’s nothing else. He’s inviting himself to the party.

He’s inviting himself. But but they but that’s good. I mean, and I don’t particularly care for Gavin Newsom, but when he goes and fights with Sean Hannity about Biden’s like energy policy or whatever, that helps both Biden and Gavin. And so these are win wins and why people aren’t availing themselves of it. I don’t understand.

Just really quick on Gavin. He’s been pretty good as a surrogate. I also don’t like him though. His press conference yesterday where he was like, Yes. We’re cleaning up the homeless because share, because the world leaders are coming to town in the same way you clean up your house for guests that was that was not really the best.

That was really bad, actually. That’s that’s bad. They should have worked up to that a little bit more. Anyway. So human’s not that thorough.

Should live among the needles. And, Yeah.

You should. Yeah. You, the bleeps should, you

know, have

to jump over people doing fentanyl on the street. But if chairman Xi comes to town, it will be cold plated roads for for as long as I can see, Sonny, I I have thoughts on Sarah’s suggestion Sonny, but what’s your take on that? Do you think that matters? Is that is that a difference maker?

I I don’t know. I I think it probably it couldn’t hurt. I’ll put it that way. If you’re not going to have Biden out there doing press conferences every day and, you know, like, and I wouldn’t. There he’s got more important things to worry about.

You need to have the surrogates out there. And that is it is interesting this idea that they just simply aren’t asking. I would find that almost shocking. I feel like that’s very basic, like, maintenance of the the presidency stuff, but, yeah, I mean, like, it couldn’t hurt. It couldn’t hurt to have friendly faces out there making the rounds doing the talking points.

Yeah. My take on this, and I I basically grew Sarah Longwell this was if it wasn’t Sarah’s advice, this was gonna be mine, but I I have another piece of advice. Is I don’t know if it’s so much surrogates, like, writ large per se as I kind of went like one head surrogate. Right? I I that would be my piece of advice.

And, like, I think that that this in theory could have been Kamala. Clearly, like, this is not in her wheelhouse. You know, I I actually think Kyle was maligned and there are other things that they could be using her to do. But I they need somebody that can carry the case against Trump that has the gravitas to get on the shows to make news, something that people know is in Biden’s ear, a trusted person. I I mean, Jay Mart had Ram in the just really quick.

I I think I forgot to mention this. If you’re if folks are looking to read the story, it’s here’s how Biden can turn it around in politico. Jmart had Ram is the head picture there. Somebody like Ram. Right?

Like, Jeff Zinc seems to be doing a great job. I have nothing against him, but I almost feel like he needs Biden could use an inside chief of staff and an outside chief of staff. Right? Or a campaign manager, somebody that, like, when Donald Trump calls people vermin, Ram can be on all the shows the next day and be like, this is like Hitler, this is outrageous. Right?

So Biden doesn’t have to do it. Comla isn’t the one to do it. But, you know, if you had Chris Murphy, go out and talk about that. That’s better than nothing. I agree.

I agree. That’s better than nothing. But I I think that the way to really elevate it would be to kind of name somebody that people know and see, and they’re like, okay. This person represents by administration, and they’re good at that. He hasn’t really had that the whole time.

I guess since Saki, really. I mean, and and maybe it’s time to get Saki off MSNBC, give me that slot and, like, put her back in the game. But I don’t think she wants to do that. But, KJP is just not that good at that. The chief of staff’s run.

Clean was good at it on Twitter, but, like, that’s not enough. Right? And and and, you know, Pete, again, we we could have moved Pete to be the secretary of of offense instead of secretary of transportation. I don’t know. But that that would be my my advice, it’s related to yours.

So

Can I just say number one? I I just don’t think one person’s enough. I mean, this is I don’t wanna, like, get into the semantics of it with you, but, I do think one of the big problems for the Biden administration that’s been sort of obvious the whole time is that they don’t have a robust communication strategy that is offensive. And they’re doing things, like, like, the bidenomics thing was getting really trashed in this piece. And the thing about bidenomics, like, I think that before I was, like, picking up and put it in the trash can, The problem with the bidenomics thing is that they branded it before they sold it.

Right? Before you needed you wouldn’t wanna put his name on it until you’d convince people the economy was turning around. And so, like, well, people still thought the economy was bad. They branded it, and that was a mistake. But part of the reason that they have trouble getting the narrative is that they just can’t what is the bannon life?

Now bannon’s flood the zone with shit, but these guys can’t flood the zone sort of with their own people. Yeah. That’s what anyway. Yeah. And but this is where this is where the sort of, I think there were some individual pieces of advice I didn’t thought really okay.

Maybe, like, send the Clitons to solve the mideast crisis. Like, okay. And

some of it was, like, stuff that’s obviously gonna happen in the future. Like, Liz cheaney, get her to endorse you. It’s like, what? You don’t think that’s not on their list? Like, I That’s right.

Like, you know, is that really the best time for that, really? November twenty twenty three?

But the big piece of advice that overarching was, like, get on war footing now. Like, if the stakes are so high, like, let’s get on war footing. And I think that that is That’s the piece that they need to take seriously or the part that I thought was like, yes. This is the problem. As everybody continues to operate, like, we’re in a normal political environment, And we are not in a normal political environment.

Sorry, Sunny. Go ahead.

Alright, Sunny. Advice number two. Advice number one. More surrogates. And vice number two from Sunny Bunch.

Number two is stay the course on Israel. I mean, the polling on this is exceptionally clear. The the support for Israel, has ticked up in every category between June and, October. There was a poll. The Brookings was highlighting, you know, the the lean toward Israel numbers, for Democrats, If you’re worried about shoring up the base, went from thirteen point seven percent support to thirty point nine percent support.

Independence went from twenty point eight percent support to thirty seven point nine percent support. Net. Republicans took

the This is a net number. Right? Not a total. Like, it’s, like, thirty seven percent.

That’s the total. So, I mean, it’s plus seventeen with Democrats, plus plus seventeen with independence. I mean, like, the support for the Palestinian and Hamas cause is always very low in America and has ticked down And this gets to the broader, big strength that Biden has, which is as the defender of the American led international order, which, you know, you highlight Trump agents of chaos. Who knows what he’s gonna do? It could, he could throw Ukraine under the bus.

He could throw Israel under the bus. Nobody nobody actually has any idea what he’ll he will do. As opposed to Biden, which is just, like, fairly steadily maintaining the American support for democracy and our allies abroad. And again, that gets to that gets to both just his biggest overall strength stability, normal, Biden, and it also shores up support amongst, maybe I’m wrong Sarah on this. But I get the sense that that would also help shore up support with security voters, like college educated women.

I don’t know. I I feel like that’s a You go out there and you say You’re

at Atlanta

suburbs, man. We’re going to we’re going to, protect people from terrorists. We are going to get our hostages back who are still being held by him. Like, that is the that is the angle I take with this. And I think it’s I mean, look, you know, for all the big showy protests, for all the noise out in the internet, and people marching in the streets, The polling is very, very clear on this.

The support for the Palestinian cause is minuscule, and they should not be worried about those people.

Well, you mean the support for, like, stopping. Like, I think there’s plenty of humanitarian support. And if you look at the numbers, it says this. It’s like, that that people Right. Right.

Right. So people hold two thoughts in there that save time. Right? Like, that they they can feel like we we could be doing more even, you know, on it from a humanitarian the humanitarian side with the people in Gaza that that are going through it a horrible time. But that doesn’t mean, okay, telling Israel they should stop defending themselves and we you know, give up on the, like, give up on Exestitures, etcetera.

I predicted both of your guys prediction by the I I actually, I thought some of these was gonna be start a new war. But I was on this, but say the course on existing war.

This was pretty pretty close. More you got in hand.

I I Will Saletan. The one thing I I I don’t I guess I I have one agreement with Sonny and one slight disagreement. I’m interested in your take on Sarah. On the agreement, I real I do think that there’s an over panic right now about the youth vote and youth turnout. And I know the Biden was on the ballot, but if you look at the Virginia, I just saw last night, somebody did an analysis of the Virginia College town numbers, and it was off the charts for Democrats.

Now I know this is local election, so it wasn’t really Israel, but, like, You you you you feel like you would have seen something. Right? Like, you would have seen some bleed at UVA, Virginia attack, like these places. But they hit their numbers on turnout. They hit their numbers on on the vote share, Democrat versus Republican, Liberty University, was the one college town where that was not the case.

You’ll be surprised to hear there was an inversion, of of this story in Lynchburg. I think I think the Democrats got about five percent in that precinct. So God bless those kids. I don’t know if their parents have locked them in the dorms there. What’s that what’s happening for the five percent of Democrats at Liberty.

But, So I think that that, I I’m a little less concerned about that. You know, I I think things could get ugly though by next year. And I I’m less sure that that the American people are gonna want us to be totally tied to whatever, you know, BB and whatever this government is doing over there. And so I I’m I’m less assured in in your position that that that blind un un unwavering support. Books is good next year as it does this year.

But anyway, I don’t know. Would say you Sarah. The other option is maybe nobody cares about this, and this doesn’t matter at all.

Yeah. I mean, I guess I would like to aggregate, the sort of moral questions from the political questions. And so, like, if we desegregate those and we just take the political questions, the question is, like, does this allow Biden to look presidential and steady and like he’s handling big things that presidents do. And I would say in this moment, it is giving him that. And to your point, Tim, like, god knows if JBL was here who we very much.

But if JV was here, he would probably take the he’d take the dark version. We could also take the optimistic version, which is that these things are resolved. That somehow we have a resolution in Israel. We have a resolution of some kind, between Russia and Ukraine which could be huge for Biden. Right?

I just don’t. How is that is that pa how how can that possibly be? Well, this is really Sarah Longwell high on the optimism juice. I mean, I’ll give you some

I think that the Israel one so this is not as I always stipulate. This is not my area of expertise, but I guess I I I think that at least the Israel conflict could be something that is resolved ish if nothing else that Israel goes hard and then it’s over.

Well, Israel also has no interest in occupying Gaza. Like, they don’t they don’t want to, like, keep trips there forever. They wanna they wanna get their people back. They wanna degrade Hamas to the greatest extent possible. And then, you know, but they’re they’re I I can’t imagine a situation in which Israel is putting tens of thousands of troops in Gaza for an extended period of time.

I can imagine it. Maybe. I mean, I don’t know. I just I I’m I’m on the dark side of this. I I I’m I’m very on it’s it’s it’s hard for me to imagine a clean outcome to this.

But

So on the young people though, so that so the other thing though is the reason that people turned out and young people turned out is because of the pro life pro choice stuff, right, abortions on the ballot. The biggest problem with Biden’s position on Israel in terms of their young base Is there activist base who does work on elections? Right? Like, if, like, those are the people who go knock doors, those are the people who are young and sort of energetic and so that may cause them a little bit of trouble with their sort of apparatus, but I don’t think it’s gonna cause them trouble in of votes because I think people are gonna come out and vote on a portion, especially young people.

Yeah. The first time there’s a door knocking skirmish between the college campus friends of Palestine, and then the other people that volunteer for campaigns, which are retired, ladies. They’re they’re knitting while they’re doing their phone calls and, you know, have their, you know, have their isport Israel button on. I and it could get a could get a little intent intents at the at a door knocking, meetup somewhere. But, okay.

Sonny, I’m not I I don’t know. I appreciate that you are true to your brand. I don’t know that that is gonna be to make a break issue for for Joe Biden. Mine is I I feel I and this is I’m I’m a little bit of a broken record on this, but Like, JBL talks and complains a lot about how, infrastructure bill and other piece of legislation have have actually had a positive impact in a lot of red areas There’s all these manufacturing plants, you know, that are that are going up. There’s all this investment that’s going up in red areas.

I if I was Joe Biden, I would just spend the entire spring, like, hanging out in rural Georgia. And I just, like, in my mind’s eye, I have that picture of him, with his arm around the biker while Ron DeSantis looks sad. And I just want I just want them to put that picture up in the office and be like, how many times can we recreate this picture over the next year. Like, I want Joe Biden hanging out at Harley shops and on factory floors and with union workers of all colors, like, in in working class neighborhoods in the city, working class neighborhoods in in rural areas, and and just hang out with and, like, have Grant and Joe in the TransAM with people that look like they actually work for a living, unlike us, right, and have some calluses on their hands. And I, like, that would just be his entire schedule.

And, That’d be, you know, my north star. And, you know, if that was Carvels, it’s the I don’t know. I don’t have an empty economy stupid. Tag line for it, but I have a picture. So I just want everybody to have the picture of the

It’s to let Joe be Joe. It’s let Joe be Joe. I really agree with this advice. I mean, he should give no speeches. Like, for his campaign, he should just not give speeches because that’s not where he thrives and let people come up to and argue with them and let him say, hey, Jack.

I’m gonna fight you on that. Yeah. You know, whatever. Let Jovi Joe and, like, One of the things also in the Jmart piece that I think is true is they clearly they his staff by not letting him engage like, in some of the ways that I think he wants to, it gives the impression that they don’t trust that he can do it. And they’re gonna have to take the leash off and the safest way to do it is actually just let them do it with people.

Just let them loose, yeah, talking to people in Proximity where he can touch them and see him the way he is.

Tactile. Not the way Carrie Lake tried to touch me, but but friendly

That was so funny.

Receptive touching.

Was so funny that you decided to be like, why are you touching me? As though as though you don’t put your hands on everybody, you’re so offended by someone putting your hands on you.

I’m sorry. I’ve never grabbed okay. I’ve never grabbed somebody by both of their hands. I mean, okay. I’m I’m just sorry.

Can we just talk about this? Like, it’s one thing to touch a shoulder with with that has a shirt on it. There is something very creepy about both of my hands were being touched, and and And also by somebody like Carrie Lake, I just I don’t know. I mean, when a load person tries to put skin on skin Yeah.

Was it skin skin content?

It was multiple. There were two skin to skin pieces of skin to skin content.

Did it burn?

It’d be like if I put my hand on somebody’s face like a like a grandmother does to a to a grandchild and, like, Like, hey, my, hey, my boy. Like, I, like, both hands on me and then and then grip clasping clasp And in the moment, I probably said, why are you grabbing me? Would maybe have been a better word because touching is different, but, you know, we’re doing it live. But it was it was clasped

You you would you would like to

carry class both of your hands, Sarah Longwell shaking your head. It’s a good insurance. It’s

Yeah. It was I mean, here’s the thing. I just thought I thought it was a little performative on your part, right, to be like, why are you touching me as though she was, you know, we’re in like our me too phase of are you, you know, are you smelling my hair? What what what creepy thing are you doing? She was grabbing your hands.

Like, it’s not that humans touch each other. I

I’m both hands. Sunny. Sunny was so strange or grabbed both of your hands. How would you react to that?

Tim handled that much better than I would have, because I would have jerked away and discussed. I stood with him, like,

dah, don’t don’t

touch me. Like, I don’t

I don’t like

to be

touched. Like, I I know. I barely tolerate it when my children give me hugs. Like, that’s like my that’s like my level of not liking touching. I really don’t like to be touched.

And if Carrie if, like, really if any politician grabbed both of my hands, or, like, again, I think it’s the skin to skin thing because, like, touching on the shoulders Like, okay. You’re making but, like, I thought Tim handled it very calmly.

You know what? I am a toucher, but it was reminiscent of me of cat for the Catholics out there. Like, when when you have to when they’re they’re doing the our father in church, and you have to hold your neighbor’s hand in the pew. So something that certain Catholic churches do. So it’s not you’re not just praying, but you’re, like, you’re hand holding.

And and that always grossed me out. I’m, like, your clammy hands are on my hands. Like, some stranger in church in the morning, and this is that was what what’s

So I also don’t care for that, but I would just I’ll I’ll just throw something out there for you guys, which is that maybe it’s because you’re boys and people don’t do this to you all the time. But when you’re a girl, people touch you all the time. Men, grab your hands all the time, older men. It’s a thing that they do constantly when they’re talking to you.

Well, that sounds gross to me.

Okay. Well, I’m sorry

you have to deal with that, actually. Yeah. That’s So that we have a terrible culture.

Okay. Well, I just He Carrie like grabbing your hands to me. And I was just like that happens to any any if you were talking to an old man politician, they would grab you and put their hands on your shoulders and grab that grabbing your hands and exactly what that feels like. People do that all the time. And they do it as a I know how she was doing it too.

It says, hey, I’m making a point here you hush while I make the point, and they put their hands on your hands. That is a very familiar move.

John, old straight men are gross. I guess. That’s one thing we can all agree on. A hug, you know, a little gay hug, you know, kiss kiss on the cheek. The two hand touching.

There’s something creepy about it. Okay. Follow- if you don’t know, I just realized something, like, maybe a couple of you, like, live in a cave and don’t know what we’re talking about. So I’m I’m gonna explain the next segment. Before I do, Sonny, did you have any final thoughts on my idea for Joe Biden and hang out with bikers?

I wish you would say like motorcyclists instead of bikers because bikers could they’re two different ways bikers. Yeah. He should stay away from he should stay away from bicyclists, actually. He should stay far away from bicyclists. He should, but Motor cyclists, you know, Harley guys.

Yeah. Those they’re fine.

I concur. Okay. If, if thinking about Carrie Lake touching you and thinking about the problems Joe Biden’s campaign is having is causing some mental health issues for you. I’ve got good news to show a sponsored by Better Health. You know what is supposed to bring joy and goodwill, but sometimes raises your anxiety and sadness, the holidays.

Also for me, Going back to standard time. Okay. I the four o’clock, I I’ve been I’ve had a horrible week. I’ve had anxiety throughout my entire body all week. Because of the sun setting at, like, four thirty two for some reason because a handful of Karens are not happy that their kids to go to the bus stop in the morning in the dark, I guess, is why we it’s why we it’s why we turn back the clock.

I still have no idea.

Right? It’s for farmers.

It’s for farmers. It’s the farmers fault.

I don’t care when you blame it on farmers for the record. Farmers are like, we’ll get up whenever we don’t care about this.

It’s just Okay.

We just get up

for work. I don’t know who fault it is. I apologize to the Karens. I don’t know whose fault it is. Needless to say this time of year, when we have to turn the clocks back and leave the specter of Christmas coming on, it can be a lot.

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So when Carrie Lake was touching me, for for you to realize the last Tuesday. We talked about this a little bit last week, but I was with Lake and Bannon. And, the the video of this was released over the weekend. The Bannon interview was was released on the Circus finale, which was awesome. People should watch it.

And the Carrie Lake interview was released by Carrie Lake You know, it’s gonna hit the cutting room floor thirty minute episode. A lot of a lot of people to talk to. Circus will start aggression withmer, Donald Trump, other other it was an interview with Donald Trump, but covered Donald Trump. And so Carrie puts this out, and, on her x feed, I own liberal, liberal journalists and never trumpers. And and then, some of our friends, you know, kind of cut a highlight package of it.

Including her touching me where it didn’t, didn’t maybe look as as good. But, one of the things so I wrote about this for the TriNet today, I’m in for JBL. And, one one of the things that both the interview with Bannon and Lake made me think about was This question of, like, where the GOP is going, and whether, like, you can actually become normal in a mega party. Like, whether there’s a path to, like, a mega and normie merger. Yeah.

What what’s sunny one? What what’d you we just call it when, like, the libertarians and the social conservative fusionism. Thank you.

Fusion

Fusionism. Like, can we have a magnonormy fusionism? Or is there something fundamentally crazy about Mag? And and and what what prompted this was in the Carrie interview, you could tell. She was trying very hard.

To, like, be a normal politician for half the time. It was not, like, my last interview with Carrie, where she starts yelling at me immediately, like, she was going to talking points. She was talking about pocket book issues and fentanyl. And and and when I asked about election fraud, she was kind of discussing the more normal concerns about it long lines. You know, like, she wasn’t doing the Chinese bamboo ballot thing anymore.

Right? Like, she she was pivoting back to a more relatively for for her. Right? Like, some facts similarly of a normal politician. And then over the course of the fifteen minutes, let’s start to degrade.

Her ability to be to be normal. And so and and and after the interview, I I was making this observation. A couple of my friends in Arizona sent me articles about how she’s been actually trying to cozy up to the McCain wing, and and and saying to him privately that she’s gonna, you know, soften the edges and become more moderate. But the fact that by the end of the interview, she was making fun of my pearls and saying I was not a manly man and all that makes me wonder if, like, that’s not really possible for Right? And and and so I was using this as, like, this kind of thought experiment about the broader movement.

Like, is there something do mega voters just require you to be weird and extreme and conspiratorial and mean because that’s what the voters like. And so a nice, you know, a softer version of Maga doesn’t exist. Or might somebody else be able to do it and it’s just not in Charlie Sykes constitution? What do you guys think? What say you?

Well, I mean, I think

I think owning the Libbs is foundational to the Maga Creed. Right? I mean, like, that is, like, that is, like, the a number one thing. It’s not, like, I don’t know, man. I don’t think supporting Donald Trump is a thing you do because you’re really into the various policies he has.

Right? You support Donald Trump because he’s a showman, and because he wants to hurt the people you don’t like. He wants to hurt the people you feel have been hurting you. Right? Like, that’s what his entire appeal is.

And I don’t really think, like, you know, we’re gonna talk about Tim Scott here in a minute, but, like, a guy like Tim Scott, that is not his mo. His whole mo is being, like, a reasonable guy who has, like, fairly straightforward conservative opinions. And when he tries to do the MAGa dance where he is, you know, it doesn’t work. It’s it’s phony It’s phony. People don’t like phoniness.

And Kerry Lake is like Donald Trump kind of crazy just naturally, and there’s something that appeals to people about that sort of mask off, no veneer of reasonableness. It certainly appeals to a plurality of GOP Mary voters. It’s it’s like it’s the foundational tenets of Magaism. There is no fusionism. There is surrender There’s surrender, but there’s no there is no fusionist.

I and this is look, this is why DeSantis continues to poll at ten or twelve percent or whatever. Right? Like, He is the reasonable Magga guy, right? That is like his whole brand. He’s like, I’m effective Donald Trump.

People don’t want effective Donald Trump. They want Donald Trump.

I want you to take on this. One example of infusionist possibility is the new speaker of the house, Mike Johnson. Just as we’re coming on air today, he, officially endorsed Donald Trump, some, which just shouldn’t be a big surprise. But I guess it’s just kind of surprising since, like, the last speaker of the house talked about how Donald Trump tried to coup on the house floor and, like, the next speaker of the house is now endorsing him while there’s still other options in the field. But

To be clear, that former the former speaker also would have endorsed too.

Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure. I’m just I’m

just saying

we’ve come a long way since twenty twenty one. It’s not a point I like to bring up occasionally. But so what what’s a u? Is that Like, is it because they’re trying this with Mike Johnson. Right?

I mean, now, like, John said, some other issues like all of his weird socially conservative stuff. Right? But but, like, The the question is, is it doable? Do we have a scary Frankenstein monster manga coming in the future who can kind of appeal in the suburbs, but also all the anti immigrant heart tough on crime, or or is it just like it’s just so so he says it’s so owning the lives is such an essential part of the creed, the Ike, and being anti elite is such an essential part of the creed that it’s not a isn’t doable.

Yeah. So you have a line in the tread that nobody’s seen about, like, will they learn to use the doorknobs, right, which I think is, like, a Jurassic reference, which I which I love?

Which was from nineteen ninety three. As soon as I wrote it, I’m like, god, I’m I’m I’m I’m like the the old guy that I used to make fun of that, like, makes all the references about nineteen eighties move. Anyway, sir.

I loved it because I got it immediately. But I think the question is is and this is where Carrie Lake is different from, like, a Hershel Walker. Or where a Dave McCormick might be different from, I don’t know, give me another Magga person who can’t con Doug Masteriano. Or Doug Masteriano. Right?

So there is a way to thread this needle, and our bifurcated media environment does give people the opportunity to let their freak flag fly in the places where they need it to fly and then be slightly more normal. Like Carrie Lake, when she was talking to you, she was testing out. The normal Kerry Lake. Now I bet there’s other environments where she’s not that version of Carrie Lake. And there if you recall Donald Trump had a brief stint.

And I can’t remember if it was before he got COVID and had that luna just absolutely insane debate with Joe Vine or if it after, but there was this point at which everybody was like, he seems much more disciplined. Right? Like, it when he had a campaign and he started, behaving like the normal person, and that it, like, fell apart. I do think that there is an element of being able to figure out how to talk to the different audiences in the Republican Party. There has always been a pivot that people make from a primary to a general election.

And I think that the media environment now is so fractured that it’s possible if you are a talented politician like Carrie Lake is. That you can work that to your advantage. I would say the counter point to that though is twenty twenty two where part of what happened is by the time the primary was over, They were pretty like, for a lot of people, the stuff that they said, like, Tudor Dickson saying that a twelve year old girl who was raped, you’d have to carry the baby to term, like, Everybody remembered that. Like, it was baked in from the primary. And so I guess that’s the that’s the question.

I but I could see how talented politicians could do it. I’m just not sure there’s a lot of people that are as good as Carrie Lake.

Well, but to your point, though, on the bifurcated media environment, we also live in a an environment where nothing ever goes away. You can’t have that sound bite

Right?

On on Bannon’s show and not have it thrown at you a hundred times in the general. Maybe you you get into the real fever swamps the podcast where, like, the trackers aren’t, but, like, I don’t see how you can thread that needle and maintain plausible deniability in the general.

Yeah. I mean, there are two models. And so the fir, second one is Tim Scott. The first one is, like, so there is this I am a Normandy Republican I’m actually I am actually normal, and I’m trying to do the Maga cosplay. Like, that’s one option.

We’ve seen that that doesn’t work. The other option that I do wonder if it but this person doesn’t exist. So maybe this is a white whale. Right? And that’s kind of what we’re talking about is I am Magga in my soul.

The things that I actually care about are strong border. I don’t think that we should be, you know, doing overseas adventures. I’m anti free trade. And, like, these are and and I’m anti woke. And, like, these are things that I generally care about.

I actually don’t care about all the other stuff that much. And so maybe they can kind of grow them, like, this person up through the system who is. Like a normal I went to an Ivy League school, and I actually care about this stuff. And now and then in the future, that person can run. And they don’t have to do dabble in the crazy stuff, you know, because they exude manga in in the way that they talk about issues.

But even then, I just part of me thinks since what I wrote is that, like, I I just think that it might be the case fundamentally, the megap people want somebody that’s a little crazy. Right? Like, and no matter how authentic it is, an anodine version, it’s just gonna be more boring, the Trump show isn’t gonna be there. The libs aren’t gonna be quite as mad at them. You know, like, the tears aren’t gonna be as delicious.

And that that person would end up just getting beat by somebody that outflanks them.

Yeah. I mean, it’ll be interesting to see what happens when Trump is no longer around. Because it will create a vacuum. Yes. I know, guys.

But I’m, like, I’m not wishing that on anybody because I don’t but but it it I think and you’d be surprised how many rooms you’re in were like, that’s the plan. The plan is like, we should not be trying to defeat this. There’s it’s like you have to wait until he dies because he

Republican rooms or democratic rooms? Or what do you mean? Rooms

I would just say rooms where people are thinking about what a post Trump world looks like. There’s a real admission that the post Trump world, trump literally has to be gone. Like, you don’t as long as trump’s around, you don’t beat it. He has to be He has to be off the scene entirely. Because it it’s the cultish element.

Right? There’s no it’s not, it’s not tied to an ideology. It’s tied to a person. Somebody else can embody both the crazy and sort of the make America great America first policy deal, but none of them are Donald Trump.

Oh, it’s an interesting thought experiment. What we know doesn’t work is being a nice person that pretends that they are a mega person, which brings us to the great donor class Hope Tim Scott who officially dropped out of the race this week, Here is my view on Tim Scott. Why? Did anybody ever think that this was gonna work? Like, I think what we just were talking about is an interesting thought experiment.

Like, could JD Vance work?

Yep.

I don’t know. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe.

Right? I I think that’s an interesting thing to think about, you know, is a kinder gentler trump. Something people might want if they have if they also feel like they’re of the Trump mold. That’s a maybe. I I I think that I could hear both sides out argument.

Could it Tim Scott work? Obviously, no. Is something we’ve been telling you on this podcast for a year. Finally, Tim Scott came to terms with that. I think it was kind of interesting.

We became to terms with it right after he had his Canadian girlfriend reveal. Makes the whole thing feel really kind of creepy and weird to me. I don’t know. I just I I I don’t know. Like Mindy, why she went along with this.

Good luck out there Mindy. But, anyway, what did you guys do you guys we can just move on to our final segment of you anything to add, but if you do you have anything any eulogizing to do for Tim Scott?

Tim, you you said, right at the top of the show that Tim Scott is not a blockade topic, and he’s not a blockade candidate. Like, it just like Tim Scott maybe had a path in two thousand twelve or two thousand eight. As that kind of Republican. It doesn’t exist in the GOP as it’s currently constituted. He just, again, he just looked uncomfortable and kind of phony out there when he was trying to as you’re discussing thread the Magga Normi GOP needle, he looked uncomfortable.

I like, that’s just kind of what it comes down to.

Sarah, I guess the one interesting thing that would be looking your opinion on, is I’ve heard some chatter since he dropped down? That’s good news for Nikki Haley. Tim Scott’s dropping out. His vote share of two percent is gonna go to her and it’s gonna help her momentum. What do you think?

Nikki Haley. Is she happy this morning in Bamburg?

She is happy. No. She is every single one of these, people that drops out allows her it’s not just the meager boat share coming her way. It’s more just like attention for her. She is fighting to emerge in a one on one battle with Donald Trump.

Right? And, you know, I continue to think that’s a hopeless endeavor, but a worthwhile one Jonathan Last, and I’m much, preferred to be heard than Ron DeSantis. And right now, Rhonda Santis is splitting off. Move on from trumpers from Trump. But she is consolidating the normie vote.

And so everyone that drops out is good. I just wanna say about Tim Scott. It’s a good lesson. For candidates that look good on paper. Like, there was a lot about Tim Scott that if you just consider him his history, his bio, that, like, you could be, like, oh, I can totally see this.

And people did like him. You know, this was one of the things triggered out when Trig out if he seemed to actually sort of caught off guard. When Tim Scott dropped out on his show, like, and he kept saying, but you have the highest, like, positive rating for voters. They didn’t They don’t hate Tim Scott. Right?

They think he’s nice, and they don’t hate Nikki Haley. They just don’t want them. And this is the thing that I think is an interesting thing to tease out, which is it’s not that they’re, like, they hate Mike Pence. They hate Chris Christie. They don’t hate Tim Scott.

They wanna belong to a party that they that has Tim Scott’s in it, right, for a variety of reasons. But they don’t want Tim Scott to be the president.

I do have a little bit of bad news, for Nikki Haley on this front. The Tim Scott, second choice numbers for who, you know, who Oh,

they are good. With his

candidates in Iowa. So he did he had seven percent in Iowa. Yeah. But, there was not a single person that got above thirty. It was Trump, DeSantis and Haley were all between twenty and thirty.

And unsure was the remaining quarter. So I broke down basically, basically evenly. Not great, Bob. Okay. Speaking with not great about it, I wanna close by really uplifting people.

Maybe you can think about something, Sarah, Sarah, just because you bring the sunshine to this podcast and and you love being touched so much by Carrie Lake, and, you know, just all of your feelings. I haven’t thought about a positive send off because we’re gonna go down into the right now. So maybe think about something. Think about something nice to say at the very end.

Okay. Great.

Charlie had a newsletter yesterday. I don’t know if you listened to if you read Charlie Sykes morning shop, a good news letter comes out every day. And it was about the plans that Donald Trump has. Put forth. And this was some of what I talked about with, with Steve Bannon, last week.

I listed out you know, that five point Mike Davis plan, of of of eradicating the deep state and indicting the bidens and porting twenty million people and releasing the January sixth prisoners and reopening, Gitmo. Bannon was all on board for all five points of that five point plan. Charlie brings up some other plans, written reports from John Swan and others in New York Times, one of them that jumped out to me, former president Donald Trump is planning an extreme expansion of his first term crackdown on immigration, including preparing to round up people living in the United States without legal permission on a vast scale and detain them in sprawling camps. While they wait to be expelled. That that sounds bad.

They they wanna follow the quote, Eisenhower model, which is just a, not very subtle, nice way to call back operation wetback, which was a, a past effort to expel Hispanic, in the country. Other things, the speed, mass deportations redirect the military budget, doJ targeting political enemies. So not great. I guess my main question is I don’t think that we need to belabor much time unless, Sonny, feel free. I don’t wanna speak for you in saying that everybody, all of us are, horrified and appalled to put a potential plan to Trump has in a second term.

My main question for this is Charlie’s thesis was it’s it’s the plans, not the gaffes that matter. And I think, obviously, that is true substantively, that it’s his plans are more important than him saying vermin or whatever, which as gross as that is. Or or mixing up Biden with Obama is maybe a better example. But for me, I wonder if politically the plans, not the gap. Also are more salient.

Because, like, I’m just not sure this has sunk in with people yet. And and maybe there can be a case that is made. So, Sarah, I wanna start with you.

So this when you say it hasn’t stuck in yet, so I talk about this from the focus groups all the time. The fact is voters have not yet graphed, then it is gonna be Biden versus Trump. In all cases across the board, people still seem to think like something’s gonna happen. Like, maybe Trump goes to jail or, like, maybe someone else is gonna be there instead of Biden. Like, they’re haven’t fully clocked the idea that it’s gonna be a rematch.

And I think that as a result, Trump is getting a big pass right now. From people. Like, they’re just not super engaged in the crazy stuff that he’s doing. So that part is right.

Okay. But what what about the part of, like, In some ways, this is new information. Right? Like, the way I think about this is that Trump’s saying crazy stuff at a rally. I I think I think we should publish publicize that.

But I people, like, they know that he’s gonna say crazy stuff. Is it new information voters that might move some of them when they actually hear the details of his plans and and Yeah.

But here’s the thing. Here’s what here’s what the people who are focusing on the gaps. There’s a reason the gaps are getting focused on by the Biden Administration is it’s the same thing that the right is doing with Hunter Biden They need to make an equivalency argument on mental acuity with Biden. Right? And they think that the biggest vulnerability for Biden is the fact that people do not see him as, like, up to the job and mentally sharp.

And so they really need to even that out with Trump is also not mentally sharp. And I think at this juncture, that’s not a terrible thing to do because voters are not yet really read in on the idea that it’s gonna be trump. You do need to because one of the things I talk about a lot with the focus groups is like, voters oftentimes, this was true in twenty twenty two. They didn’t really clock the idea that behavior for these candidates were like anti democratic or a threat. They just thought they were nuts.

And I think it’s good for people to paint trump as nuts. As he comes into this. And then as it becomes clearer, really outline all the insane things that he wants to do.

Dark Sunny, do you think maybe the mass deportation plan in the camps is positive. And so, maybe that’s not actually politically helpful at all.

I would say it’s rarely a net positive for your campaign when something you have to planned or said you wanna do is described as sprawling camps. I feel like sprawling camps is like people are like, sprawling camps.

Maybe it’s nice and tidy. They’re like, yes. I’m for deportations. Then what’s a huge sprawl in camp? They’re like, oh, no.

I think this I think this is actually though. I think this is true that I think people, if you ask them, should people who are in the country illegally be deported? Is a fairly straightforward law and order and people are like, yeah, if you’re here illegally, get out, you know, whatever. If you phrase it as, we are going to round up all of the people who we suspect to be here illegally and we’re gonna put them in series of interlocking sprawling camps throughout the country. And it’s gonna be like an archipelago of yeah.

And, like, I don’t think that a

good I think that’s a bad thing. If people understand the phrase archipelago. Just

a word. I don’t think that’s a phrase archipelago. I think it’s a single

Well, I’m I’m referencing the art gulag archipelago.

You know, the phrase.

Anyway, anyway, it doesn’t matter. Frankly, I think the gaffes help him in the primary because the whole point of, again, this goes back to what I was saying before. It’s baked into the whole trump appeal. He is Trump the showman being crazy, ridiculous. Like, I’ll just say whatever comes off the top of my head.

He will, at some point in the primary, talk about the sprawling camps.

Be like, you know, guys, you want should we have sprawling camps and people be like, yes, sprawling camps. We should have and because because that’s what people want. From that’s what

people want from from Donald Trump. And, like, I think Charlie is absolutely right that the important thing is the actual policy things that will be undertaken by Donald Trump. But the thing I do worry about is moving the overton window to the point where people are like, yeah, sure. Camp, big giant camps full of illegal immigrants. Of course, that’s fine.

They we don’t they’re not gaffes. I mean, that’s the other thing is that they’re not actually gaffes. It’s just like It’s just him. This is him. This is this is the thing.

And this is why this is why I get so depressed when I look at the polling numbers, it’s like, well, this is what a clear plurality and probably a majority of the GOP electorate wants.

Yeah. I worry about the over to window moving too. My only other observation on this and, is kinda moves away from the political to the practical is even within me, I sometimes look at these things. I’m like, they’re not really gonna do that. Like, I, and I know.

I, like, I know, like, there’s most of my brain knows I fucking had to sit across from all Bannon’s three shirts. Right? Like, I know what they wanna do, and I know that they will do it if they can. But, like, he was just so incompetent. In the first administration that that, like, little and then the little optimistic hopeful part of your brain comes in.

It’s like, hey, well, that’s that’s not really gonna be like that. I just I do think that’s human nature. And I think that that there has to be a really concerted effort to to expose this over and over again and to drive into people’s heads how different it will be. Because the staffing of the next administration, I know that that’s not the politically salient issue, but the staffing is gonna be different, and it’s gonna be hard for them to find people. And and that means that at the bottom of the barrel, you know, even, like, when I asked being in that interview, like, who are who’s gonna be in the cabinet?

Like, the names he had he came up with were, like, preposterous. Part of the reason why they’re preposterous is that there aren’t good names, which takes us back to that there is no normal mega. You know what I mean? There aren’t a lot of good options. And so So, anyway, I I I do think that that, like, undergirds all this, Sarah.

So take just schedule f for an example. So this is the one where Trump keeps talking about this. I’m gonna implement Schedule Aflick. It’s a first order thing. That is where they’re basically clearing out a bunch of the civil servants.

And actually what he’s doing by saying that is because they know no one they know about there’ll be a quitting and mass of civil servants. Right? So part of it too is to be like, yeah. Well, we’re gonna head off this, sort of walking out of the government, but that means they’re gonna put when you say incompetent, that’s true. Like, You don’t have to be that competent to, like, completely burn things down.

You have to be competent to build things. Right? You have to be competent to preserve things you do not have to be confident to burn it down. And I think that’s where this is going.

Well, that’s an uplifting close. It’s been a really good positive show, a long show Sarah, how are you how are you feeling? Do you have any nerves? You’ve got a you’ve got a big speech I heard. You gotta do.

So I I gotta do my TED Talk tomorrow. And if you can’t tell from this podcast, I am a smidge on the six sides. So I gotta play hurt. Number one, number two. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried to memorize a twelve minute speech, but it is really hard.

And also, I’m not good at it. Like, you know me, I like to talk off the cuff and, like, riff, and I need the interaction.

Yeah.

But just, like, talk and straight for twelve minutes, it’s it is a disaster. So if you guys out there wanna just, like, send me some positive vibes tomorrow. I would appreciate it so I don’t blink on stage in front of hundreds of people and then millions of people down the road on, When they release it, I would appreciate it. I gotta go talk about focus groups and democracy. Gonna do my best.

It’s your wheelhouse. You’re fine.

We’ll send you positive vibes. Same positive vibes. Our our absent co host JBL and two, loyal editor.

More in love to him.

Yeah. And to our loyal reader, Michelle, Eversman, Michelle thinking about you. We have on Sunday Scott Galloway from the pivot pod. I taped it yesterday. So it’s already in the can.

It was really good. And he brought out kind of my inner sunny. Like, like, Scott is a little bit of a heterodox kind of thinker, and he’s a he’s a democrat and he’s a liberal, but, on various issues, because, you know, we got outside of, like, the, Trump bad talking points, you know? Like, because, he has he he actually is a very substantive person who can, you know, kind of talk about every fucking thing under the sun. And so we got into a lot of issues.

So, you know, I don’t know. So I got to kinda let my free market flag fly a couple times during the podcast. He has a great, great great bit on higher education and about the problems with young men and society. So anyway, I think you’ll enjoy that with Scott Galloway on Sunday. Sarah, I think me and you might be doing secret on Friday.

We’ll see a little teaser.

Yeah. She wouldn’t be bud. I would just like to reiterate to close that This is funny. I had not thought about it that the three of us used to work together, like, back in the day. We all worked in the same place.

Were we all in the office at the same time?

Tim Tim was gone from Berman by the time I got this.

I thought we I thought we had like a two week overlap. No?

I don’t think. No.

We didn’t probably were just like ships passing in the night.

I you came by the office a fair amount, I think, still.

Happy hours.

Like, or we would say happy hours. Happy hours. So I I think there was though.

We’ve all come along my wheel.

People don’t realize. Yeah. Well, that’s pretty good.

Guys, thanks so much for being with you. We’ll see you on Thursday and out of here in DC. Otherwise, we’ll see you on Friday. And, I don’t know how JBL usually closes out this show. Peace.