New Doc Examines How Vets Are Recruited by Militias

Welcome back to the Bulwark goes to Hollywood. My name

is Sunny Bunch from Culture Editor Bork. And I’m very pleased to be joined today by Ken Harbaugh. Now Ken is a former US Navy pilot who’s writing on civil military affairs has appeared in the Atlantic, the New York Times, a little website called The Bulwark, and the Yale Journal of International Law. He served as commentator for all things considered on National Public Radio, hosted crooked media’s reclaiming patriotism, and currently Secret Podcast Warriors in their own words. As well as the award winning podcast in YouTube series, burn the boats.

But we have Ken here today to talk about a new documentary against all enemies, which is debuted at tribeca got a really good response there. We’re gonna talk about that movie and what kind of inspired him to to produce it as well as just the business of documentary making in general. Ken, thanks for being on the show today. Really appreciate it.

No. Thanks, Sunny. Great to be here.

So alright. So let’s first, let’s just set the stage. Let folks know what the what the movie is about. Against all enemies is a documentary about the the the state of I I I’ll let you describe it. I I don’t wanna put words in your mouth.

Describe describe what’s going on in this documentary. So know what they’re getting into.

Yeah. Well, let me tell you how it all began. Like many people I watched the January six x insurrection in horror and was even more appalled in the in the following days and weeks to learn that so many of my fellow vets were involved. And if you lump in those who served in in law enforcement, I mean, the the numbers were just really alarming, and I reached out to some buddies to figure out, you know, what the heck is going on, and the more I dived into organizations Like the oath keepers, like the three percenters, like the Proud Boys that specifically target and recruit veterans, the more I realized we were we were on the cusp of something truly dangerous. And the film, even though it takes January six as its jumping off point, I think the scariest thing about it is that it’s not a film about January sixth.

It’s a film about what’s to come. About this cadre of highly trained, highly experienced military vets at the core of these organizations that is planning for the next one.

And there’s also there’s a lot of history in this documentary as well. I mean, you you get into kind of the ways in which conflicts lead to members of the military joining militias other domestic organizations like that and and how that how that training, but also the the loss of that sense of camaraderie that they had over overseas or in conflict, you know, in in the case of the civil war of course here at home. But also just the sense of losing the country Like loot, they come home, they don’t recognize what they see.

Yeah. Well, to understand where we’re headed, we we really have to understand where we’re coming from. And one of the most alarming insights in the film offered by the The professor Kathleen Beloux who literally wrote the book on this, Spring The War Home, is that membership in violent extremist organizations always spikes after America’s foreign military misadventures. It spiked after World War. One, where you saw a resurgence in clan membership after World War two, after the Vietnam War, the only thing we don’t really know as a society is what happens to that statistic, to that trend after the longest war in America’s history.

We know it’s gonna be bad, but we we don’t know how bad. We have absolutely seen the growth in that membership of extremist organizations like the three percenters and and Proud Boys. But there’s gonna be a very long tail to to these conflicts, and you’re absolutely right. So much of what is driving it is this sense of betrayal amongst military veterans, the sense of a loss of of purpose. And some of them, unfortunately, regain that or regain a simulacrum of it in these extremist organizations.

And part of the call to action in the movie is to try to redirect these veterans into positive affirming organizations that can provide that sense of camaraderie and community without directing it towards violence.

I wanna I wanna drill down into that sense of betrayal a little more. Because this is the thing we we’ve covered in at the Bulwark some, we’ll sell Selbers aren’t a bunch of pieces about this for us. But, you know, the the sense not only of, you know, some some of some of them say, you know, we feel like we were lied into war. Right? Some of them say, you know, we we weren’t treated well when we came home.

But others are saying, you know, like look, I feel I feel like we left our afghan allies to to to you know, die at the hands of the Taliban. I feel like we, you know, did all this for nothing. How do you how do you kind of turn that around? I mean, that’s that’s an that’s a that’s a much more difficult Not to crack, I think.

It’s an incredibly difficult, not to crack, and we begin that conversation. With a case study of a Vietnam vet, Lewis Beam, who tells a story in the film that is just Sarah Longwell about seeing one of his buddies die slowly crushed in a in a vehicle in Vietnam, and you just get the sense. Watching him recount this that that he began to break at that moment. Now he went completely off the edge when he came back home, he helped resurrect an incredibly violent iteration of the KKK became a leader of the Texas. KK, and all along he talks about the betrayal that he felt upon returning home.

I I see some of that happening now in the rhetoric of these organizations like the the three percenters and oath keepers. And to your question about how do we arrest it, I think we have to find any number of entry points into that chain of of radicalization and divert people where we can. Maybe it’s in their transition from out out of the DOD. We need a better hand off from the DOD to the VA, we need to empower organizations that provide a positive sense of camaraderie and purpose. Like team Rubicon, a disaster relief organization that retrans military vets to be emergency responders.

There there are others out there. But we have to offer these alternatives. We have to lift them up. At the same time, we have to expose the lies of the extremist organizations. That are siphoning these vets off.

And that’s that’s really the heart of the documentary, I think. At least that it’s the thing that I am most struck by when I was watching it, is that it’s, you know, look, there’s there there are lots of different ways to look at this. But one very specific and I think correct way to look at it is you have a bunch of people who who committed their lives to serving their country. I I think they mostly got in to the military to the police honorably, and then they are told they are told by the the person who they voted for, who they supported Donald Trump. The election has been stolen from me.

The democracy that you believed in is a lie. I There’s no other way to stop this than through marching on the capital or, you know, whatever, stand stand back, stand by. I I The the root cause here, you know, the downstream issue as one of one of the the the guests on your documentary notes is the culture. How do you how do how how do we stop that part of it. And I like, I know I’m asking this.

I don’t think there is a good answer, because it’s it is such a it’s such a it is such a a horrible mess with a totally irresponsible person kind of at the at the start of it that I don’t know what what to do here.

Well, we have to acknowledge that it’s not just the former president. It’s not just Donald Trump. There is an entire ecosystem that propagates and amplifies that lie and builds on it, and a lot of them are veterans. And that is one of the thing the movie tries really hard to do is place the moral burden where it properly lays which is on the the Mike Flynn and the J d vances who agitate from a safe distance, of course. Right?

And draw Holly is the prime example of this. He pumped his fist and then ran as fast as he could. And when I when I think about the vets who were there on January six, what really strikes me is that so many of them honestly believe they were doing the right thing. They live in a in an alternate world of truth that has been constructed by liars who know better, the Flynn’s, the vances, the Eric guidances of the world obviously, the former president himself, and I wanna make sure that when we talk about moral culpability, Obviously, we need to we need to lock up those perpetrators who who broke the law and beat up cops on January six, but we cannot lose sight of the instigators who from a safe distance created this mess and compelled their followers to acts of violence.

I I I mean, I, you know, watching Mike Flynn in the documentary was a reminder of just how far he has fallen. I I like I I don’t understand what happened to Flynn and listening to, you know, general Stanley McCristle, talk about, you know, Mike Flynn is my friend. I don’t know what happened to him. How do we we how do we as as as a society kind of try and turn people away from him. I mean, I don’t know what what is the what is the response here?

Well, great question. I don’t think we can turn Mike Flynn just like I don’t think we can we can recover or rehabilitate folks like JD Vance or Eric Gritens. Believe me, in in certain cases, I have tried. I think we have to expose their lies at every opportunity. And we have to we have to make it really difficult for their followers to continue on that path.

Now that is hard to do at scale. It is really hard because of just how stove piped media is these days, and and you know those people are not listening to this show more than likely. But they might still be listening to their brother-in-law or their kids. And I think at the end of the day, it comes down to having conversations with people you care about. People who might be on that path and pulling them aside and saying, you know, is this really worth it?

Do you really buy all this craziness that Mike Flynn, let’s just take one example, is spewing about microchips under the skin and and this this kind of nonsense. And if if you’re asking about how we fix it, I think ultimately, it’s gonna be those one on one conversations with with people you care about?

I wanna I wanna drill down into the making of this documentary a bit because I I look, it’s this is it’s you you’ve got a lot of great, big name guests, including one Bill Crystal editor at large at the Bulwark. When I saw him on the screen, I did the Leo Point, you know, the meme. Like, I know I know that guy. But but, you know, lots of lots of great guy. Stanley McCristle, all sorts of interesting folks, but you also talk to some of the some of the I I don’t I don’t know how to describe them exactly, militia members, participants and this sort of thing, you know, there’s a you you you go, I forget the the name of the guy you go down to his ranch in Texas and, you know, he’s we seem

General e.

General e. So he he’s an interesting he’s a really he’s the maybe the most interesting guy in this whole thing for me. Because you get to you you got good access to him, you got good time with him. How did you find him? How did you get him to go on camera and talk?

About what what he was what he’s up to.

Yeah. One one of the things you discover about people who are deep in this world is that they really believe and what they’re doing. They really believe that they are fighting for the country, and just for context, I know most people will not have seen the film at a tribeca. But generally, he’s not a general. He’s a former army infantryman who is one of the leaders of the Texas Melicia and claims to be fighting for the constitution by, you know, arming himself to the freaking teeth and leading protests at at capital buildings and those kinds of things, and believes fully in the big lie and many of these conspiracy theories.

But they’re, in a way, sincere. Occasionally, endearingly sincere until you realize the implications of their conspiracy laden beliefs, but many of them hold those beliefs so deeply that they wanna talk about them. They wanna share them. They believe they so firmly believe that they’re in the right that that they want a chance to talk on camera, and it’s it’s striking how open many of them were with us.

When you when you’re putting together this documentary, is do you ever worry that, you know, we are providing these people a platform and a megaphone that will will bring others to their cause. Because I’ll I’ll just state I’ll just state my biases I the documentaries I love the most are the ones that just let people talk. I like I like to just let the crazies talk and it hopefully, the people watching will be able to sort out what’s right and what’s wrong. But I I I know that is not always the case. That is not People are not very good at sorting out right and wrong a lot of the time.

When you As you’re as you’re putting it together, what is your What is how do you balance that that that idea?

The the short answer is, yes, I worry about it constantly. It is it is an ever present concern in how we’re editing, how we’re interviewing, and a lot of that you don’t see. That’s all behind the scenes. But the balance comes in interspersing the voices of reason and sanity with those those those first person accounts from people like, generally, where we let them just ramble. Right?

And you you get a window into their thinking, into their world view, But then we cut to someone like Jason Crow, congressman from Colorado, who has just as much, I would argue a lot more authority on these matters is Army ranger who did ninety combat missions, and then he gets to weigh in on some of what this so called general e is saying, and I think that provides more than enough balance and more than enough context, and and ultimately a window to what’s really true about the big lie and these other conspiracies.

Alright. Let me let me reverse that question slightly and and ask Do you ever worry about putting your thumb on the scale too much? Like, do do you worry about, you know, like, well, you know, if we if we have too many, people saying that these guys are nuts, then the the nuts who are watching this are just gonna be like, wow, they’re they’re really they’re really loading the the the the questions here.

A little bit. We we worry about that a little bit, but I I think in terms of airtime, it’s relatively evenly split, but the weight of the commentary from from people like congressman Crowe and Seth Molton and Stan McCristle and Denver Riegelman, and you mentioned a few, you know, Bill Crystal. I I just think the film without me having to put a finger on the scale, it delivers a pretty clear message that there is a right side of this argument. And a wrong side of this argument. I’ll let viewers decide for themselves, but I think the facts matter and we we present them in From a filmmaker’s perspective a relatively unbiased way, but I think they land incredibly heavily on the side of the truth.

Yeah. I I don’t think anyone again, I don’t think a reasonable person’s gonna watch this and come away from the documentary thinking like, you know what, I’m kinda interested in this oath keepers. Group. We go go Google them and see what they’re about. So, you know, I it’s again, it’s it’s very interesting.

And, you you know, you mentioned watching January sixth happen and kind of sitting back in horror. And that is the the same I I I again, one of my favorite parts of this documentary is just listening to the the the the representatives and and congressman, now some former Denver Riegelman, of course, Scott primary because he wasn’t nearly crazy enough to be in the g o p anymore. The Just listening to them talk about you know, being in the house chamber when the the doors were being stormed. You know, being being essentially cut off from escape, it it’s it’s kinda crazy. It’s like it’s crazy to think about how how far January six went and how much worse it could have been.

Yeah. It’s crazy, and we cannot forget. I I feel like there’s this massive effort to whitewash that day. And even though the film isn’t primarily about January sixth, I think the the more often we can remind people what really happened that day, the the better off will be, the more likely we’ll be able to prevent. The next one.

But, yeah, we talked to people who who were trapped. We talked to congressman Crow, who was in the house galley, the one area that they couldn’t evacuate, and he relates the story of the protesters on the other side of the barricades trying to break through and him calling his wife and saying, tell the kids I love them. Imagining the worst was about to happen, but also having the presence of mind to realize that the people on the other side of that door Thought they were in the right. They thought they were the ones, especially the vets on the other side of that door. They thought they were the ones supporting and defending the constitution.

That’s where the name of the film comes against all enemies foreign and domestic. And that’s the real that’s the real question we highlight in the film. How did people on the other side of that barricade arrive at this point where they really feel like they are defending the constitution against all enemies. We have a theory, and it it points directly to to the big lie, and people like Trump and Gritons, Vance, and Flynn, and and and others who who instigate.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is and this is, I think, the the best thing about is that there is a there is a sense of empathy, not sympathy, but empathy with understanding how these you know, former military members, former cops, got there. And that’s I, you know, that is what the best documentaries do. Let’s talk about the business of documentaries a little bit because I’m I’m super fascinated.

So you guys premiered the movie at Tri Becca, which is a very prestigious film festival. We had Carrot Usimano from back to Filmfest on a couple weeks ago. And it got a it got a very good reception. Right? You guys did pretty well in terms of attracting audiences and interests.

Yeah. We did great. I think people must have been sneaking into the premier because they were literally standing on the sides of the theater. So packed house on opening night, they gave us two more theaters. That’s always a great sign.

And the reviews have been overwhelmingly positive. For, you know, a kid from Ohio who’s never made a movie before, it was quite quite an experience. We We pulled up to the theater. I saw the red carpet out front and I I asked my wife, gosh. Who who is that for?

I wonder who’s here, and it was for us. So it was pretty cool.

Well, you you you before the show started, we were talking a little bit. You said that this was kind of a a real crash course in the business, what what did you learn while you were making this and getting it put together and getting it ready to premiere?

I learned a lot. I I learned that making a film like this is only half the battle. A lot of the work happens after you’ve delivered the final cut and you need to find the right partner to get it out into the world. You need to find the right ways to to get it to the audience that that you wanna see it. That’s all been a fun challenge.

I’ll have to say. At at no point in the making of this film, was I pulling my hair out, it it’s been it’s been a heck of a ride, but the business of documentary filmmaking is you know, it’s its own world. There’s the creative side and then there’s the business side and you you kinda have to navigate both. Will Saletan let’s talk a

little bit about funding, because I mean, this is not a This was this does not look like a cheap production. It’s the quality is is very good with the interviews and the the title credits. Like, it all looks really really nice. How did you guys cobbled together the funding for this? Were there were there grants?

What what were your where where did you guys get the money?

Yeah. About half grants, half investors. And It it it I guess, is reassuring in a way that there are still a lot of people out there who care deeply about issues like this who care deeply about defending democracy and are willing to put their their money where their where their values lie, and we honestly didn’t have that difficult of the time raising the funds to to support the movie. And, you know, hopefully, at this point, we just find the right partner to get it in front of as many eyeballs as possible.

And you guys do you you are in talks with some folks to I won’t ask you to reveal any specifics here. You know, I know when negotiations are ongoing, but you guys are you guys are talking to a few distributors. Yeah.

We are. We are and huge credit to try Becca for showcasing the film and the way it did for getting us in in front of the right people, to help us tell the story, and we’re we’re onto the next lily pad, which is talking to those distributors and figuring out the best partner and the best deal. I think the lily pad analogy is pretty good because there’s, you know, probably dozens of them between the idea and reaching the audience, but we’re we’re on the last stages of that.

Yeah. Well, what were what were some of the other lily pads before this? I mean, like, obviously, the star somebody, you know, you sit up in the middle of the night, you’re like, I gotta do this documentary or, you know, however it works. What what we’re walk us through each of those Lilly paths to get to where we are right now.

Sure. I mean, the first thing is finding the right talent, meaning creative talent to help you to help you put together a compelling story. And, you know, a director gets a lot of credit. The the folks behind the camera get get credit as well, probably not as much as they deserve the the writers and and such. But finding the right archivists, for example, something I never considered going into this.

But if you’re gonna tell a story that requires you to dive deep into the archives into the historical record. You you’ve gotta find talented people who can literally go to the Rice University archives and pull film on tape of of Lewis Beam, the character I mentioned earlier who came back from from Vietnam and was radicalized. You have to find people who are really good at that kind of thing in order to help you tell the story the the way you want to. That’s just one small lily pad in the crate process. In the in the business side of things, you have to find that balance between grants and and investments.

You have to convince the the festival judges that you’re making a film that is is not only well done, but is important, is relevant to the moment. I mean, it’s probably something you appreciate, but the The the film circuit, the film festival world, sometimes has has a different lens through which it sees current events. And, you know, coming from a political background, I felt the urgency of this every day that I was making the film conveying that to decision makers in in the film world was another one of those lily pads. I think a lot more people are on board now seeing what’s happening in the Republican primary. But, you know, just another example of of trying to make those connections and a convincing argument for the business case of a film.

Yeah. And of course, you you mentioned the talent getting a talent on board. This is a is it Charlie Sykes sat off? How do I

Charlie Sadoff is the director first his first extraordinary talent.

His first directorial effort. Yeah.

That first major director yeah. Directorial debut, a lot of a lot of other credits to his name, but, you know, this is the big one.

Yeah. And then, of course, Sebastian Younger, who best selling author, the director, I believe, of Restrepo and a bunch of other good stuff about Afghanistan and and elsewhere is is on board as an EP. What was his involvement with the with the film?

Well, Sebastian co wrote it with me. Yeah. So that voice over is is Sebastian and and me.

Oh, it is. I I was trying to figure I was trying place the the voice there.

Oh, no. The voice over script is the Sebastian to me. Okay. The voice you’ll recognize because it’s Peter Coyote who does all Ken Burns’s films.

Yeah. I see, that’s why I was like, I was god. I know I recognize that that voice from somewhere, but yeah. No. That’s great.

Yep. Yeah. I Look, the the documentary, you can you can actually watch it virtually, the try back a virtual film fest if you wanna Get a sneak peek before it’s on, you know, one of the the big streaming channels. It’s always good to support the festival, which is supporting. Films like this.

So check that out. Check just Google it. You can just Google against all enemies. Try back. You’ll you’ll be able to find it.

But it’s, again, it’s important to support the festivals, it’s important to support the films, and the people who make them. That was pretty much everything I wanted to ask was what what did I forget to ask? What what have I failed to ask? What should folks know either about the documentary or the the world of Melicious. What what do you think people should know about?

Well well, about the documentary. First of all, you asked everything, best interview I’ve ever done. Great job, Frank.

Thank you. That’s what that’s what that’s the proper response though. But no. There we go.

It’s I think important for people to understand The place this film is coming from, and just about everybody involved with it has a connection to the military or to veterans. They they deeply care. Charlie is from a military family. I’m a military vet. You know, we have another EP who’s a a a a navy seal, Sebastian Younger, of course, deployed multiple times as an embed with the with the military, with the marine corps, Restrepo, and Corangal, Bing, you know, is is proof of that, those films.

But If if we’re being tough on some veterans who have strayed, it’s because we care. We would love the community. We we wanna we wanna address a real issue in in the Veterans community, and it comes from a place of real concern both for the country and what this violent movement portends, and for those who have been wrapped up in it.

Yeah. I I wanna I just wanna emphasize that for a moment because very early on in the the film, one of your Michael Breen, who co wrote a piece with you in the bulwark here, this this it’s up on It went up on Wednesday, but he, you know, very very early on says, look, we’re we we don’t need to be afraid of our veterans. We don’t need to be afraid of all of our veterans. There’s, you know, this is not It’s not like a hundred percent of them are coming home and and But there there is a disproportionate number. Here and trying to redirect that energy is is important.

What were some of There there are some organizations towards the end of the film that you guys talked about a little bit that that can help with that. Can we Can you talk a little bit more about them here? Just to give give people some some ideas on organizations that can help?

Yeah. I’ll absolutely share that. I mean, we have a couple of impact partners with the films. With the film, we have veterans for responsible leadership. Which which seeks to hold veterans who are are are propagating things like the big lie to account the the JD Vances of the world.

It’s hard to believe he was a a US marine. There’s new politics, which helps veterans and other service alumni, say, peace corps or teach for America, enter politics, and take that spirit of service to to Washington. And then there are groups that I think can help address the The rank and file issue, like Team Rubicon, who can help reintegrate veterans by the tens of thousands. Into civilian life. I think team Rubicon has well over a hundred thousand veteran volunteers now who are deploying to disasters literally around the world using their skills and experience to do good.

Organizations like that can can help address a lot of of what what Ails is here.

Yeah. Ken, thank you very much for being on the show. Again, the name of the documentary is against all enemies. Hopefully, it will be coming soon to a streaming platform near you. But in the meantime, again, you can you can check it out at the tribeca website.

My name is Sunny Bunch. I’m called editor at The Bulwark, and I will be back next week with another episode of The Bulwark goes to Hollywood. We’ll see you guys then.

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