Tim Miller: Sometimes Reality Sets In

Well, that was a hell of a week. Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I’m Trevy Sykes looking back on. Well, it’s actually been a hell of a two weeks. And it’s been a while since we’ve been joined by my my buddy, Tim Miller, who is taking a break from his many, many, many media ventures come back on the podcast.

So first of all, we’ll come back to him. I was chained in the basement, Charlie. I’m just happy to be unlocked. It’s good to be back. You have been absolutely

everywhere, and I wanna start here. I’m I’m sure you’re tired of talking about this, but I wanna talk about your quality time with Steve Bannon in Arizona. Now this was on the circus. I mean, people probably seen it because it is a freaking viral. On social media.

You had a chance to talk to Steve Bannon on the eve of the election. He was there to support election denialist who continues to be a denialist with a shock. Curry Lake, and you asked him whether he believed all this stuff. Okay. Let’s just play a bit of your confrontation Tim Miller walks up to Steve Bannon, and this happens.

You’re the king of the Stop and Steel movement? What are you doing

here? Should shouldn’t she be running away from you, running towards moderate trying to get the old John McCain Jeff Lake voter? I

think she’s gonna get that. You know, Cary likes the future. Cary likes this energy that this populous nationalist energy for the And

once she

do once she go into appeal to those voters, the moderate

side It seems like she’s running against those people. I tell you what she’s running forward. This is the independent vote. And the and the working class and middle class out here. To be Why is she still talking about the twenty twenty election?

Wait to the House of Representatives next year. When we have a real JCIC commitment. Okay.

And we’re

gonna adjudicate oh, no. We’re gonna adjudicate all of three November. We can’t we’re not really believe this. A

hundred percent used to I usually think it was a stolen site. A hundred percent or anything. She still thinks it was and she’s still talking about A hundred percent.

Okay. So Tim, tell me about that. You go back. You have some history with Steve Bannon. Yeah.

I mean, Steve do go back, which is why I knew I had an advantage in this one confrontation. You lose a little bit without the video. So if if you are one of the people that hasn’t seen it on Twitter. It’s I’ve got a pinned to my Twitter account probably for another

Your body language. The the pure disgust.

My pure disgust, but his body language is the key. So the backstory, the behind the curtain here, is I heard he was there. He’s gonna go out and speak. And because I have as I wrote and why we did it. I know Steve a little bit, and so I texted him, and I said, hey.

Well, I’m here. Let’s talk. And so he brings me back stage. We chat for a little bit. And, you know, he’s just a classic bullshitter.

He’s buttering me up, talking about how, like, they should give me a show on MSNBC and all this stupid shit. And I’m like, Steve, let’s do this on let’s let’s do this on camera. He gets permission from Carrie’s campaign. Mhmm. Yeah.

We bring the cameras back. And the key to this exchange for me is that I know that Steve knows his line, Steve knows that I know that he’s lying, and Steve wants me to kind of get it. Like, it’s one of these things. Right? So I didn’t know him.

If it was somebody that he had contempt for and just really hated and didn’t care their opinion, I think that he would be able to just lie to their face and and and insult them. But, you know, at some level deep down in his dark soul, I don’t love the deed wants this, but he kind of wants me to think that he’s smart. Like, the old George Kistanza —

Yeah. — to

not a lie if you believe it. You know, that’s hard. Right? Like, it’s hard to be so sociopathic that you advance a ridiculous lie over and over again without breaking, without smirking, without trying to to talk to other people you know, that you respect and and giving them the wink wink, not not I’m in on this joke. And he tried to do that with me in this exchange, and that is where I knew that I just had this advantage and then I wanted to just continue to press them on it.

And and then, well, they didn’t really show it had two times during the exchange. It only showed one. You know, he just he laughs. And he kind of gathers himself and then continues to try that, you know, talking nonsense about the election. And I just said, no, I’m not we’re not doing this.

Like, kind of office. And I’m not gonna listen let you sit here. Am I talk about the chain of custody of the fucking ballots or the the Chinese bamboo, you know, any of the nonsense that he’s pushing. Anyway, I I think that it worked for that reason, and I was conscious of this. Like, I didn’t wanna give him an unnecessary platform, but I think that there are times where it’s appropriate to demonstrate that these people are full of shit and that they should be embarrassed about that and called out for it because maybe somebody somewhere is gonna look at us and be like, oh my god.

This guy that I’ve been listening to his full of shit. But

is he embarrassed that does he have any shame at all? It’s like, I was just looking at his eyes and it’s like, you’re so deeply invested in this. Does he actually believe the stuff order? Is that, like, a irrelevant question? Is there is there a real person way down deep in there that goes going, I know this is shit or what I mean —

Yeah. — are set up? Both. No. It doesn’t matter.

Because if you’re a public figure, what you say is is what matters, now what you think. But, yes, there is a person deep down it. Like I said, they we’re they’re backstage. His brother is there. He’s, like, introducing me to his brother.

His brother’s just, like, a normal Kai and a blue blazer and khakis who, like, works at an investment board for for colleges. You know, like, just an old time, Don’t do see Republican guy. Right? And no. He doesn’t care enough, to be honest.

Right? He needs to keep his grip going. And he sees this all as a big game, which we’ve discussed a lot. And so, you know, he tries to do this tongue in cheek thing with me. Right?

Where he’s like, where he breaks. He’s laughing. He’s laughing. He’s like, yeah. Of course, I believe it.

While he’s while

he’s laughing. The ticket, you know. Yeah. Okay. So you asked the, actually, Key question of this whole campaign, which is what was Carrie like doing near that end of the campaign where you would normally think in on Earth two point o, that the candidate would be reaching out to the center would be, you know, having locked up the base would be talking to, I don’t know, McCain voters as opposed to wrapping herself in my pillow guy and Steve Bannon and telling McCain voters to go to go stuff himself.

That was an interesting question, and it was an interesting decision. So talk to you a little bit about and in the end, may have caused her the the election. Was she just so cocky and so arrogant that she said, screw those people. I got this thing. Probably good caused her know the ad that’s gonna be less than one percent, I think.

It looks like an Arizona governor. Kanye arrogant in a bubble buying their own BS I mean, the vibes, I have to tell you. I wrote about this and it was just the thing. I probably got the most wrong before the election, but well, I got the ramifications part wrong. The assessment of what their sense of things was right.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Like, when I was around them, their chefs were puffed. They were confident. They were having a good time.

They were having a blast. It was

a rock it was a rock concert.

It was a big big dream. That’s part of the reason they brought me back stage. You know, I’m a never Trumper. They’re rubbing my face in this. They’re gloating.

You know, that’s why they felt confident enough to do this freaking interview. Why would you do interviews with me? You knew I was not gonna be nice to you. You know, but there is just this irrational exuberance. And part of it is the the bubble that they’re at, you know, and I think that there’s been a lot there’s been a lot of spilled and a lot of podcast conversation about how democratic elites are in a bubble and how they’re out of touch with regular people.

And and there’s something to that at times. But the Republicans, particularly these mega Republicans, found themselves in just a very thick bubble of their own. Where they thought that they didn’t have to do the normal politician think of reaching back out they thought that they had enough enthusiasm with them, that people were disgusted enough with the democrats that because of, you know, transgender kids on on swimming meats and what you know, inflation and whatever combination of things that they felt like they didn’t have to do it. And, you know, their experience at these events was have was hundreds and hundreds of people come out and cheer them for, you know, their most insane stuff. And and and in doing so, they turned out they turned off a key percentage enough of the vote in suburban Phoenix and elsewhere that was not interested in a governor that was going to be palling around with a guy who is responsible and at least in part for a a siege of the capital.

Like, that was enough for people. Some people said no. Whether it was abortion or democracy or Steve Bannon or just carrier, the carrier lights, nuttiness, or all a vaccine conspiracy, or all of the above, all in one big package? Enough people said, no. I don’t I might not like everything about the Democrats, but these people are lunatics, and I’m not giving them the keys.

And and I and it was a conscious decision based out of hubris and being inside of a bubble. And it was it was a really catastrophic decision because Carrie is in her in her weird way like has an appeal. She was a TV news host She could have pivoted to the center and probably squeaked out the twenty thousand or whatever votes that need to do yet, but but that wasn’t where they were going. They had their eyes on the bigger prize. Let me

come back to that in a second. But I but I think this point about the bubble is so interesting because one of the things that really struck me was a a little video of an appearance on Charlie Kirk’s show. Yes, I do occasionally watch this sort of thing. And Wendy Rogers, state senator there who is one of the most bad shit crazy extremist. Anyway

I interviewed Wendy too. I interviewed Wendy

for that show, but they didn’t it didn’t make the cut. So Wendy’s on after Wendy Rogers who is way out there. She’s on the show after the election. And you can tell she is stunned, and she actually says, how did this happen? Maybe we live in a bubble.

Wow. Maybe I don’t know what’s going on out there. And I thought for reality to penetrate that far that when Elijah is actually seeing the sky, and it was it was pretty remarkable. But it was easy, I think, to get this wrong And I had Mark McKinnon on the podcast yesterday. He’s talking about, you know, having a similar experience up in New Hampshire where he goes to Maggie Hasson’s event and it’s really boring and, you know, lifeless.

And then he goes to, you know, general Bulldog’s events and people are having fun and that’s rock us and everything. And, you know, you did the same thing and you wrote about it very clearly. Katie Hambs ran one of the most low energy uninspiring on charismatic campaign. She’s running against one of the most charismatic, talented, deeply dishonest, and crazy candidate, but it it it was easy to sort of get caught up and everyone seems to have been caught up and like, you know, here’s the next big rock star of Mega. So how surprised were you that she lost?

I was pretty surprised,

and I did write in the article. I didn’t think it was a done deal. You know, I said that and I and I said that there I think some lessons to take for this even if Katie wins and I still believe that. So for example, Katie is gonna win by about one percent and Mark Kelley is gonna win by probably four or five percent, like when all these ballots are counted. That’s a meaningful gap.

Right? And and so, you know, I had had things shifted one percent the other direction and it’s Carrie Lake winning narrowly and Mark Kelly winning by three percent. Like, that article’s gonna look pressured. Right? You know, because that is an important three percent.

Right? So I I think that candidates and campaigns do matter, especially when there is a when the stakes are very high. And I think that in this case, Katie Hobbs benefited not from a particularly compelling campaign or anything that she did, but from a deep sense that was that happened across the country, as I read in the article this week, a complete sweep of the election that I earned. Yes. Yeah.

It’s just the fact that in a purple state, there are enough people. Maybe not as many as we’d want. I wish it was sixty to forty. It was fifty one to forty nine. But there are enough people that just said, no.

I I will not go wrong. With something this nutty. I will not go along something as bigoted and this crazy and that I can’t trust that that our that our democracy will hold and that that base sick rights will be protected. And so I I she benefited from that and Carrie cost herself, you know, by not trying to appeal. And so on election night when I was there at their party, I wanted to hear about that.

What what was that like? It was something because they again, they all thought that they were gonna win. And, like, the Star Wars Bar analogy is so beaten to death and but and Why is it so perfect? I know. But these people were worse.

And so it was like a it was like if the Star Wars Bar and the KKK rally met and I got some live streamers there. I mean, it was so weird. It was Danny Johnson and Nigel Faraj just there and — Wow. — you know, all of these, like, some like, some weird oathkeeper types, but also some, like, rich donor types. It was the most odd Republican event I’ve ever attended.

But, you know, the early numbers come in and lake is losing. By more than Trump was in that early though — Mhmm. — and absentiva, and you sensed a panic in there. And she comes out very early to do her little kind of crazy speech and even the balloons in this room. Now some of them are going, yeah, weren’t gonna come back.

There’s fraud. But I’m looking around and that’s about fifty fifty. There’s another fifty percent of people who, you know, had had been to these kinds of election either things before and are kind of saying to themselves. This is odd. You don’t usually come out and declare victory when you’re down by eighteen.

Right. You know, very early in the nineties. Like, what is happening here? I’m unsure about this. And so the mood in there was very uncomfortable.

And so it was very clear that what happened was gonna happen by that. I kinda thought Kerry was gonna come back and win by one percent. That I thought it was also very possible that you could lose by one percent. It was clear that masters and FINCH are we gonna lose. So I was really encouraged by that.

And and encouraged overall that this was kind of like the closest one in the last nail in a huge overwhelming trend towards all of these folks getting knocked out.

I prefer to think of it as the cherry on top.

Yeah. Sure. But, yeah, it’s like the I mean, it’s the best news we’ve had in a while. I mean, you you made me go back and relisten to our podcast after Donald Trump left the White House, and that’s fun. That’s a fun that it’s fun.

Yeah. I appreciate that. And and there’s something to that man that it felt like there’s something broader about this. This election day to just have such a broad based across the country rejection of these people and and the fact that having Republicans who even went too far for me in dabbling with Trump, but if they showed even a monochrome of normalcy and and sensableness. And and, you know, they won.

And so it’s impossible to not look at that and say this mattered. Like, the these people’s behavior mattered and it costs them and despite this that they had a lot of energy and they’re having fun, it cost them. So I expected Gary to win. So I I totally will admit that, and I was really thrilled to see her lives. I will You mightily

admit that. We were certainly not alone. Okay. So I think the least surprising story of the day is she’s refusing to concede. Of course, she is.

This is her whole existence and her fame is tied up and being an election analyst and the candidate, why would she let that go? So I’m not surprised by that. I think it is significant that she’s the only one. All around the country, you’ve had Republicans who lose these elections and then graciously concede, which is kind of shocking, kind of a reminder of what a singular outlier Donald Trump was back in twenty twenty. I’m glad you asked that

and put it that way because that was gonna be my answer anyway. So full agreement. Lack salt, even creepy like masters — Yeah. — even masteriano, really.

And I I

will say this was something that in the lead up I had a sense might happen because I looked at that and I I forget what was on this podcast or a different one, but I was talk I talked about that Larry Elder race in California. Right. And sometimes reality sets in. Mhmm. When you get beaten bad enough, you know, you talk a big game about Trump and all that, the boy.

It’s tough when you lose than to go out there and be like, I gotta get myself up and I gotta look at that camera and stare at it and lie and pretend like I think it’s fraud and smile, and Cary Lake is just psychotic enough to pull that off. And I think it’s why she was particularly dangerous because everyone saw correctly. That she had channeled the Trump all of the elements of the Trumpism in the most authentic way out of anybody who has tried to pair him to date So I’m not surprised that she could pull it off. I always said, look, see what you want about ten cruise. I don’t like that going at all.

The ten cruise lost in twenty twenty or twenty sixteen. It’s really hard to imagine a crowd full of people carrying ten cruise flags charging the capital.

Yeah. And I

you know, the other a certain amount of sociopathy and a certain amount of charisma to be able to pull that off. And I it seemed like Cary Lake and Donald Trump are really kinda the only ones that have it.

Okay. So since we dealt with all these serious questions, I I have one other question that I thought you might have some insight into. What is with the weird soft focus lens when she does YouTube videos? What is that?

It’s creepy. I

mean, what is what on I mean, she has to come out of the room right into the real world. I mean, you know, She’s been on TV. She knows how to make herself look okay on TV, but it’s weird. It’s this godsy look and it’s kind of gonna see if

she’s kind of beaming in from another

place. It’s like, oh, what what are we missing here? You kind of like wanna pull it away and go, okay. So what’s actually going on? I mean,

when you just look at it as her and like in a zoom. Yeah. For me, it’s kind of like, oh, you know, it gives it an air of, like, professionalism and, you know, she has a nice spotlight on herself. Okay. But then when you’re, like, doing an interview and it’s her and another person and the other person is beaming in from Earth she’s beaming in from Gauzy, Vaseline faced — Yeah.

— non earth, it it becomes very creepy. And I don’t have a good answer to it. And, you know, it was I had a list of things to ask the late camp when I had to suffer a lot of time with them and it was on there, but I didn’t get around to it. A couple of them had suggested that that I get drinks with them and I kept following up saying, I will do that. I will take one for the team and get drinks with the Kerry Lake team just to kinda get a sense for what’s happening behind the scenes in the crazy, but

they never got that You know,

they got a little comfortable with me. Let me get backstage with Ben and and and texting me, but they did not get that comfortable. So I never got an answer on this. But I will do my best, Charlie. And and if I can find the answer to why what the thinking was, I’ll report it

here first. See, what I think would be hilarious. Is if you or I got that, you know, got that thing. And and next time we’re on MSNBC, we have to carry a leg glow.

I don’t even know how to do it. I would love to do that.

That would be so great. Okay. So Deepgram

can very help us for that? Can very help because I will do that. I’m gonna next week, Thanksgiving week, it’s a perfect time. I will do it. I

figured you would know people who

would know how to do that. Okay. Well, we have a lot of listeners. So if someone can make me look like Carrie likes, I will do that on Thanksgiving

week. Okay. So taking a deep breath. Donald Trump is is running. I think everybody knows this.

You did your not my party video on this incredibly tired, weak, boring speech. I mean, Look for people who think, well, you guys are never Trump, of course, you’re not gonna like it. It was really remarkably bad, wasn’t it? And then when I get your your sense, what do you think was going on? We’ve watched him for a very, very long time.

And then when something happened in there, Yeah. I mean, it

was long. And all of his speeches are long, but it was it was a drug out, man. I mean, Fox cut away. And he’s in the clip. This is hilarious.

So he’s in the clip. He’s going on about angla angla angla people don’t even know who angla is. And then, like, Sean, he already cuts in. He was like, That was president Trump. I I mean, Fox is getting bored.

So there’s something to it. My guess here and this is just as an observer who’s had suffer through seven years of having him to think about Donald Trump and no inside info. Is that the feedback he got from the small number of people that are still in a circle is that this should be a state of the Union esque type address. You know, that this should get based. Seriously, especially after that election, you didn’t get great feedback on the sanctimonious, and you used to be the president, you have that advantage over everybody but project that.

That’s what I think was happening. And so they’re like, we’re gonna put you on the prompter. And

he always hates that. He always just hates that.

Yeah. He’s not good at that. He’s not good at that. Okay. So it was not good.

Now, I think if I think if you went back and JBL did this and and looked at the on the triad and compared it to the sixteen announcement. And and so there were some things that were different. Like, his energy level did seem lower and, like, his excitement to be there seemed lower. But if you sat down and watched the whole twenty six and that was weird and boring too at times. Right?

Like, we don’t we just only see the clips of that, the, you know, rate this merger. You know, I think that’s the only thing you watch anymore. So, you know, part of that is just Trump. So I’m doing my best to just hedge and just be like, wait, this is something worth monitoring. I think that there is a chance that the thing that I’ve wanted to happen for seven years might finally happen, which is that, like, he just officially wears out his welcome.

And I kind of I I always thought that was kind of possible. Betting on it always seems stupid. Even suggesting it on TV kind of makes you seem stupid. Right? Because you are wrong every time.

But eventually, you are gonna be right. Right? And eventually, people getting sick of them are he’s gonna die. Right? Like, one of those things is gonna happen at some point.

And so, it could be happening. And I think that he is speaking of bubbles, I do think he’s in this Mar a Lago bubble, and it does feel like he’s losing his his feel. And so maybe if he gets out there and is doing rallies again, you know, and kind of doing the crowd work where he actually has some candidate skills, you know, that’ll change. But I I don’t know. He’s made some misses.

He he played this really poor. And he had this thing locked up. If he had made a few moves differently in the past five months, he had a renomination locked up, and he’s been his own worst enemy. So what would he have done to abduct up the nomination? What are some odds?

He didn’t have to pick all these fucking losers. To start with there was no there was no obligation to pick everybody in all these primaries and to interfere. He could just sat out some of them. Right? You know, he didn’t have to push people through.

He could have been positioning himself as JBL’s published as suggested this as anti Mitch and anti Kevin and talk about how poorly they’re running these campaigns, right, rather than anticipating that everybody’s gonna win and thank him. Right? He didn’t have to be out on the campaign trail last week. I mean, Nike, it it’s his party. Right?

So it has been. And so had he campaigned with Rhonda Santos instead of weirdly snubbing him. Right? I mean, had he just kind of laid back and done what a norm relatively normal ex president did and you know, helped the guys, the one primaries, and and and then, you know, see where the chips fall. He could’ve come out this week and said, hey.

Mitch McConnell costs you guys. You only win when I’m on the ballot, and I’m back, baby. And and I and I think that that he would be a very formidable, maybe even insurmountable candidate. But by putting his stink on all these guys and coming away is the one who’s blamed for all this, while Rhonda Sandoz wins by twenty. He’s opened the door.

Yeah.

And that that is grinding him. You know, I think he was counting on the, you know, heads Trump wins, you know, tails Trump wins too. The whatever happens, if the GOP wins, we take credit for it. If the GOP lost, he could point the finger. That didn’t work out for him because as you point out think he’s just all over this campaign.

And so he said something was very interesting that, you know, he could have swept the field. That may be one one of the most significant things of this week. He come, the former president announces big event, and he doesn’t clear the field. Does he it doesn’t happen. The fact that not many people, you know, of the quote unquote establishment or even of the influencers showed up at the event was kind of a tell fact that he clearly didn’t have the wind at his back that that he thought he was gonna get out of the the midterms.

He’s getting blowback, some real blowback for his drives against Glenn Youngkin and Ron DeSink Desmonias. You know, he’s used a great thing and how how clever you are, boss, that these are the smartest things you will totally crush them. And in fact, he’s finding out that that he’s not getting that kind of feedback. And then he does this speech that is, you know, universally panned and I think fed into the, you know, this narrative that is he passed it, is it time to turn the page? And worst of all, he did not dominate the news cycle the way he thought.

What do you think about that Murdoch front page in the New York post? Florida, man.

You know, Charlie, I know we’re never gonna get this. But, like, I could’ve used whoops from Murdoch World like a hey, we’re not gonna do this again, you know, to move from being a propagandist for him to trying to kill him, and then everybody just kinda giving them credit for it. I just that that’s hard for me. It’s hard. You know, it’s hard for me to do.

I I maintain some bitterness. And maybe I know that that it’s probably my darker angels, but I just I maintain some bitterness over it. But it it’s meaningful. That I maintain some bitterness.

Well, the good news, of course, is that national review has now decided that it’s going to stand a third history and say, no, no, this time we mean it. No. We really mean it this time.

This is so weird. They’re all mad at me on Twitter for making fun of this. I’m just like, just own it, guys. Just own it. You’ve been Trump curious for the for the ever since the against Trump issue.

You know, there have been times where you said nice things. There have been times where you said mean things. That’s fine. You you you call it cassette. It’s a you turned it.

We’re calling it balls and strikes. Okay. I set him to start. I don’t I don’t think he’s on the field. Okay.

I’m not calling balls and strikes on him. He’s everything is a strike out for me. You don’t gotta hand it to him. At any point, you don’t have to put on your cover, the case for the Trump presidency. Like the National Review did.

So I just I don’t know why these guys are also defensive about three hundred, but, hey, is everybody wants to come over to never Trump world right now? That’s fine. The water’s warm. I welcome them. It would be nice.

The welcoming would be a little warmer if they just said you were right. Before they came over? I I would the welcome would be with a hug. But instead now, I’m gonna kinda have to welcome them with a little bit of a cold shoulder at first and get a couple drinks in me that they’re allowed into the party, but that’s fine. Everybody’s welcome.

I will say that stuff. All these people were against him in twenty sixteen too. So I I just I I also don’t I also don’t love kind of deal, like, oh, we’re the power brokers here. And oh, some of the big donors and Fox in the national review. All all you guys live in New York.

Alright? Like, none of you people were for Trump the first time. So I just I think everybody should just hold their horses on discussing the great meaning of all this. Though we welcome all converts and just let’s see what them what them people want. Okay?

And and and so, you know, when I first started hearing people that were like, hey, I was, you know, Sarah was gonna do go do some focus groups. You know, when we you can you can listen to him on board, plus, worth every penny. And if we listen to the first focus group and it’s like, man, I was with Donald Trump in twenty sixteen. I went to every rally at War Red hat, but I’m sick of them. That is gonna intrigue me a lot more than Rich Lowrey’s ninth flip flop on the sky.

Okay? Like that, and I think that is gonna be that much more meaningful thing, and that’s a little bit of a wait and see for me. Well,

I think that’s why Trump himself, obviously, she’s feeling so threatened. By Ron DeSantis. Because Ron DeSantis gives that crowd pretty much everything without the without crazy without the baggage, without the indictments, without being, you know, eighty years old and all of that stuff. So that’s that but the the thing about it is that I don’t think that he has cracked the code of how to take him down. There is there is a code.

I mean, there is there is something that Trump will do to Rhonda Sanders. I don’t think he’s figured it out quite yet. Right? Oh, no. He’s attacking Rhonda Sanders.

It’s not the same as as Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio. Because quite frankly, they didn’t have the kind of, you know, emotional bond with the base and the credibility and politics was different than. And so he could rip dead cruise and there was no massive blowback up to to all of that. But DeSantis the young consent not not not landing

the same way. People were pretty protective of their Marco. Okay. I lived through the twenty sixteen campaign. People in the conservative media were pretty effective of their precious on Marco and that didn’t Marco ended up folding.

Now, maybe DeSantis is stronger than Marco and has a deeper well of support. At least he has somewhat of a deeper well supported now. How much I think remains to be seen? So I I think both of these guys will have a ton of time to talk about this. But the short of it for me is I I think neither of them have demonstrated that they know how to take the other one out yet.

Yeah. Right? Right. And DeSantis hasn’t actually made any punches on Trump. I think he’s opening digs his own grave, and I think that’ll be the case for probably three, four months.

But eventually, if he wants to run, he’s gonna have to get in. And and there’s a lot of things, a lot of landmines that everybody stepped on in twenty sixteen, that he’s gonna have to avoid when it comes to being in the campaign against Trump. You know, he he hasn’t had to talk about January sixth. He hasn’t we haven’t talked about the house yet. I hope we have a little time to talk about the house yet.

Every time some lunatic in the house says, we’re gonna investigate you know, like the FBI and how the how the how it’s too woke. And the the lips have taken over the FBI. We’re gonna defund the FBI, and and and Trump’s like, They fund the FEI. What does is is desantis gonna be for that? Right?

Okay. That’s just one example. Right? Every crazy thing that comes up, is desantis gonna be for it?

Yep. I think he’s gonna stay as close ideologically as possible. You’re not gonna be able to be more antiwoke than he is. You

know, Trump comes up with creative things.

Right?

I mean, where’s DeSantis on the summary execution of drug dealers this morning? Right? You know what I mean? What the next Muslim ban that comes out. Right?

Eventually, all that

stuff. He’s going to have to say something.

Yeah. He’s gonna have to address all that stuff. And and can he do that? Can he go head to head with Trump? I don’t, you know, I don’t TBD on all that.

And and it’s a slippery slope. I look at my pants. Right? You know, you get on the wrong side of Trump on the wrong issue one time and you go down that slide and you go from forty percent potential support to eight. You know, that’s a challenge, coin.

He’s gonna have to prove that he can win and he hasn’t had to yet.

Yeah. Listen to you, I’m I’m thinking of it. If I’m Donald Trump, what what is the one thing that would drive a a dagger? You know, make him endorse January sixth. Make him take a stand on the insurrection by saying, and Trump has already done this, you know, that that not only was it not a crime, it was a patriotic act.

And I will I will pardon every single one of them on day one of my presidency? What will what will Rhonda Santos do? Just force indicative of the

pardon the instructionists? That’s a great question. And then and then you get on this tight rope. You know, it’s like, what do I do? Do I go full crazy with Trump in order to keep my position?

And and keep going further and further down and to carry Lakeland where I can’t win if I actually come out of this or do I try to risk challenging him, and risk going down into Mike Penceland, where nobody likes me. He marks us too mean to mister Trump. That’s all in front of him still.

Okay. Let’s switch gears. Since we’re talking about crazy, let’s talk about the Congress, what Washington is gonna look like over the next six months, when what year or so. Rick Wilson tweeted out, imagine all the GOP house craziness you can. Now magnify that insanity and loom bucket fuck winery by a billion.

Then transported to the pinnacle of burning tire mountain as an endless cascade of clown cars plunge into the radioactive waste dumps at the peak. And I responded

in Understated.

I believe you were understating the problems. So let’s talk about this. On q day one, they have the majority they roll out Jim Jordan and says, yep. We’re we’re taking on inflation. We’re taking on the no.

We’re going after Hunter Biden. I mean, what is this gonna be like?

Yeah. Going after Hunter. The people really care about Hunter. I only tell you, Charles, I’ve been out there. I was in Virginia, I was in Pennsylvania, I was in Arizona, I was in Washington State,

I was trucks. That’s what we’re talking about. Right?

Hundred count coming up. Every hipster coffee shop. Yeah. I get a little window into just how ugly it’s gonna be when I got invited to this. This Twitter spaces thing with Nick Mulvaney.

And I’m going, you know, I usually would say no to something like this, but maybe maybe I can have a little fun with Nick. And as it turned out, it it was a very buttoned up Twitter space. And so I didn’t have a lot of chance for back and forth with Nick. But one thing did come out of it that was useful. One of the people listening asked him what he expected from the new house majority.

And, you know, you can give some lip service to the economic stuff and then it’s like, but, you know, they’re gonna have to spend time on investigating the colonization of the FBI in the deep state can’t interrupt you. I’m going, excuse me. I was like, what what are you talking about? Like and he’s like, well, you know, we’re gonna have to look into the unfair investigations of Trump It’s like, Nick, who is the guy that said he quit over Trump. You know, ostensibly is one of the normal ones who you know that Kevin McCarthy has on speed dial.

Right? So if if one of the now this is not a compliment to get you know, we’re grading on a steep curve here. But if one of the most rational Potential operators is suggesting that investigating the Deep States Trump treatment is one of the things that they plan on doing. Imagine what the marsh retailer green in the top of the tire fire or whatever Rick was talking about. Imagine what those lunatics are gonna want.

The unfair treatment of the insurrectionists looking into Hunter Biden, a fauci. You know, at every event I went to, every Republican event I went to, executing Fauci is this huge applause line? I just these guys, you know, have no idea where the middle of the country is. They’ve learned nothing about from from this last midterm. And Kevin McCarthy is is, like, nowhere even in the ballpark of being strong enough to stand up to them and keep the consciousness.

So I mean, if if they were willing to learn from all of this, they would be saying, okay, you know, how can we address the, you know, these swing voters. How can we reach out to these, you know, suburban voters that we have lost? You know, let’s do, I don’t know, an autopsy where we talk about how we broaden our appeal. This time around, unlike twenty twelve, they they’re gonna skip the autopsy and go right to rejecting every single possible lesson they could have taken from it. Right?

Did they’re gonna go —

Yeah. — we

had people who really concerned about dinner table issues and the cost of gasoline. Let’s spend all of our time doing these investigations of Hunter Biden.

You have to be, like, on truth social to even know what they’re talking about. Half the time. That’s

the thing. Nobody has any idea I’m guessing that in very few focus groups, people say, well, okay, what I’m most concerned about is Hunter Biden. What what do you want from your government? I want them to spend the next six months fighting over Hunter Biden.

Not that the FBI subpoenas of Mar a Lago were a little too, you know, shaded and unfair and and I’m upset about people being shadow band on social media. It’s

like, what do you I so what this means is they will do exactly what they they ought to be rejecting, which is the rather than looking forward, they’re going to be looking back. So with, you know, despite all the people saying, well, we gotta move on from election denials, and we gotta move on from twenty twenty. You know, the margarita greens and the Jim Jordan say, fuck that. We are going all in on this stuff. I mean, I think I will be mildly surprised if they actually don’t have a hearing on Barack Obama’s birth certificate.

That’s this one. Yeah. I I I don’t think that there’s any evidence or any path that they have learned anything from this. And so and it’s because They’re in this echo chamber. You know, where they’re big, constituents.

This is what they want. You know, and this is what gets them money on social media and low dollars. So Aldi and incentives from them are wrong. And the only way to fight it is to have a strong leadership that says, no. In order for the good of the whole caucus, I’m gonna resist this inside the bubble, like Republican, like lunacy, and I’m gonna focus on you know, Pat, what was the advice we always give the democrats over the last two years and those guys come up with some issues that divide the other side and unites your cautious?

Well, let me tell you. You’re not dividing the other side when you’re investigating, like, crackpot conspiracy. I mean, on the other

side is, like, more of that, please. So speaking of bubbles, you had a great rant on the next level podcast about Ben Shapiro, right wing influencer, one time colleague of ours. Who has now become obsessed with all things gay. And I thought it was interesting that the day before the vote on providing federal protection for same sex marriages he announced that anybody that voted in favor that doesn’t belong in the Republican Party, and then promptly twelve a whole dozen senators voted in favor of this, A majority of Republican voters are in favor of this. Seventy one percent of Americans believe that same sex marriage should be regarded as valid.

And here you have Ben Shapiro in his own world say no, what Republicans really ought to do is double down on this issue.

So — Yeah.

— go on Ben Shapiro.

I do have to say, I give him a little bit of credit to, I guess. I mean, he seems to deeply genuinely think it’s bad for society, for Disney to have a movie where two fictional characters are boys, and they have a high school crush on each other, and they’re a little bit awkward about it. And one of the boys’ father is supportive. I mean, that offends him deeply. You know, I think You really think that

offends him deeply. I

I don’t know what other explanation there is. He seems to be genuinely offended by this and worried about societal rot. That might come from two high school boys wanting to kiss each other and getting the butterflies and having supportive parents. And so I just I don’t I encourage him to just keep exploring that. Because I think that, you know, at one time, I would this would have made me mad, and I would have said, these are the people that are holding us back.

Preventing me from rights and preventing me from having happiness. But but I I think that he sounds completely detached from where Americans society is. I think that these guys are extremely out of touch with what actual real America wants when I was with Abigail Spanberger. In the Virginia district. I was like, this is actually real America.

You know, like, the suburbs between Richmond and DC. This is, like, the middle of the country. As far as demographically and economically and etcetera. And these people don’t care about this. And if anything, they’re downright supportive of kids being themselves and being supported by their families.

And so if these guys wanna be that on touch with real America and and punish Disney over this, which everybody has to remember this, this was what was behind Ron DeSantis punishing Disney. Was the lesbian kiss in the Buzz Lightyear movie. So if they decide that that is what they wanna do, I mean, at least they have an ethos.

Right? I

mean, a lot of people just do anti gay shit because they wanna be dicks, And I think in Ben Shapiro’s case, he has an ethos and there’s something to be

said for that. Well, and also this is at the same time that, you know, folks in that world, I hope people are get the sarcasm here. Because otherwise, that you’re gonna get a lot of email reactions. At the same time, there’s this whole and and by the way, you know, the worst people in the world are these single lady skanks who are bunch of, you know, horrors of Babylon, etcetera, which of course then does not encourage you know, young men dependent people that that hang on, you know, bends every word to go out and and find one of these young ladies. So it is a bold political strategy to basically say our new base is the in cell community.

I mean, we

are Yeah.

We’re we’re very happy with the in cell community and all you other people, we have some thoughts. What could go wrong for This

is the bigger picture about all this, Charlie. Which it just shows you how it’s not getting better. You know, I’m doing all these events and people always like, it’s gonna get better. Right? The party, you know, after this.

No. And and the the trump thing in a weird way is like an easy cop out. Yeah. You know, as an explanation for the midterms because all of these guys have secretly blamed Trump in their in their private thoughts for seven years now. I couldn’t say it.

And so now they’re able to say it, that because they had this moment where they might have a chance to finally get rid of him. But Trump was a symptom of all of this other stuff. Right? It’s like, if the head of the Babylon B who’s doing the the one doing the Skank tweet you were talking about. And and the head of the biggest Republican conservative media outlet, The Daily Wire, you know, and and his cohort, Candice Owens, is out there defending Kanye.

Mhmm. You know what I mean? So if if the biggest media outlets that are serving the most people if what they wanna provide to them is you should be mad about a gay kiss and a Disney show and you should be defending Kanye because free speech rights means you can be antisemitic and we should blame all of our ills on the single women and the cat ladies you know, because they aren’t willing to have sex with me. Then, like, what do you think the replacement of Trump is gonna be? This is my joke when next up on Ron DeSantis.

It’s like, do you wanna run on this? Ron DeSantis’ fine? Okay. The Republicans will just be punished again. Alright?

The the this extremism in the middle of the country is upset with, yeah, there was the acute problem on the threat to democracy, but it was all lumped into this kind of boiling pot of the you know, a a ten year old girl that gets raped by her uncle as to go across state lines and this obsession over, you know, it’s trans swimming meats and the litter boxes in the classroom and and the vaccine conspiracies and the anti gay stuff and anti single women. Like, all that is wrapped up in the people in the suburbs just don’t want that. They don’t want it. And and so and I don’t how the Republicans can move away from it. I it’s like the easy thing to say, oh, we just get to Trump and all of our bills will be fixed.

That’s not true. This illness that underlines all that is the problem. And that actually seems to

be metastasized. Okay. Let’s make some news here on the podcast. Alright. Because I have sources who are telling me that and this is always something to keep an eye on when certain people show up in certain places.

The view, Tim Miller, have been cited in New Hampshire. So folks, is he running? I’m

not gonna rule anything out. Charlie, I mean, I’m just exploring. It was nice to be up manchester. There were some great supporters of the bulwerk. I was happy to see people come out and that our message is kind of resonate I’m noticing that our message is resonating New Hampshire people at the Institute of Politics, Neil Lavack, and at St.

Anne Sellbs, they said the crowd was bigger than a normal crowd. They didn’t say it was the biggest crowd in history for the dinner, but they did say it was bigger than the normal crowd that they get for Timbers

flying big crowds in New Hampshire.

Yeah. So I’m just saying I’m gonna I’m gonna continue to sort of discuss you know, talk with people and just sort of see what it is that they’re interested in hearing about. And if our message

Listen to the American people. Yeah.

If our message resonating, then we’ll just we’ll have to what the future holds. I appreciate you bringing that up, that Charlie.

Okay. Well, I’m glad that we were able to cover that. Tim Miller, enjoy your trip out east, and hope to talk to you soon. The Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio production by Jonathan Seres. I’m Shirley Sykes.

Thank you for listening to today’s Bulwark podcast. We’ll be back tomorrow and do this all over again.

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