Sarah Longwell joins Bill Kristol to break down the unraveling Trump–Epstein timeline, the shady cover-up tactics, and why this scandal may actually stick. From a cryptic birthday card to MAGA influencers turning defensive, they connect the dots the media missed.
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Bulwark on Sunday: Trump’s Epstein Timeline Collapses Under New Scrutiny
A recording from The Bulwark's live video
Bulwark+ Takes
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Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.
Bulwark+ Takes brings you bite-sized takes on the news of the day from the entire Bulwark team. This is the home to ad-free video shorts, Bulwark+ member-only livestreams, and live event archives. The news cycle doesn’t slow down, and neither do we.
Appears in episode
Sarah Longwell
William Kristol
Recent Episodes
I do enjoy both of your passion for this!
For me, this story matters for very different reasons: for those girls and young women obviously, but also for the conspiracy-brain aspect of the MAGA phenomenon, their relation to reality, why conspiracies are so persuasive to some of them, all of that. I worry that a lot of people claim to be driven by them but couldn't name a single one of them, suddenly care about them more than the Diddy victims or any other child-rape scandal you can come up with. At a certain point it feels like taking advantage of them to throw mud at the president.
On the other hand, if you're more worried about the political or information-media side of things, at what point are you just stealing center stage from the people actually hurt? Their pain can't be turned into an "issue."
I don't have the answer. Probably best not to think about it *too* much. But I'm not blind to it either.
A small but significant correction to something Sarah mentioned early in the episode [@17:32]: Prince Andrew is the (younger) brother of the current King of England, not his nephew.
The gerrymanderer's motto? Every freeway deserves representation?
Forget about those wimpy floods in Central Texas. Carving out five new districts in TX designed to vote for Trump is now key. Trump says so. Do it NOW. So, Gov Abbott complied.
Done with this blog? Read also L Egan's recent podcast here (July 19);
https://www.thebulwark.com/p/rep-cesar-texas-gerrymandering-could
CHECK CASAR'S "OVER-SNAKED" DISTRICT. Egan's guest is a TX Rep to Congress, Greg Casar. Wiki has a great article and public domain map of Casar's already "too snakey" Congressional District 35:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas%27s_35th_congressional_district
Casar says there's "a five alarm fire", with "a chance of spreading outside Texas". It's a fire few know about, YET.
BUNGLE-MANIA. A problem for Trump? Casar says the map-drawers are in the White House, not in TX. OOPS! Where? Bungle-mania central. The map drawers don't care that re-drawn maps will thus be ignorant, will make locating town halls and political offices a big mess inside TX..
MY COMMENT-- We saw how T. bribed Repub. Senator Murkowski of Alaska with special favors for her state. Her pro-T vote then broke the pending tie, in the House, on T's Budget Bill.
What can he promise to the bribeable inside TX? West Texas could counter him by telling Congress it's ready to be the 52nd state, please give, to it, its share of TX funds? Pres T. loves deals. It's a new deal for him to make?
OLD SONG OF W.TX.. Recall the song about "a young cowboy... as cold as the clay"? His body lay "in the streets of Laredo". Laredo is many miles closer to the rodeos of Tucson AZ than to the oil rigs of Houston TX. Who in TX funnels money to Abbott's party and then gets paid back with a larger amount? Rodeo guys, or owners of Houston oil riggers?
It will be interesting to see how the Murdoch clan deals with Trump's assault on the Wall Street Journal. They also have a major share of Fox news. It's conceivable that Fox news, not wanting to lose Trump supporters as viewers, will not come out and attack Trump but it more likely will start undermining him by supporting MAGA efforts to bring out the truth and express concerns about the apparently thousands of girls who were raped. Fox could easily also begin to focus on what the new budget bill will do to MAGA viewers.
I have a feeling that one reason this scandal seems to be sticking more than most is that Trump seems to have lost a step. He has often weathered scandals in the past partially by quickly coming up with something else for the press and his fans to focus on that led to both largely ignoring the scandal. The stuff he is throwing out now (grand jury testimony, team names) really isn't distracting many people. Now maybe some of that is because of the nature of this particular scandal, or that he is doesn't have much to bring up that he isn't already pushing, or just that the coalition he put together to win is so odd he can't distract enough of them with the same thing. But I am guessing a big part of it is that just can't read his fans as well as he used to, that he has lost that gut feeling for what pleases his supporters.
Rick Wingerter is on a roll in earlier posts. Agree totally. The con-artist-in-chief let us see " ...the ability of the rich and powerful to use their wealth and power to commit crimes and escape accountability." His lawyer Cohen went to jail, but not him, despite his 30-plus fraud charges, for trying to cover up his escapade with Stormy Daniels, while cheating on his third wife (while she was pregnant?)
If a criminal wants to stay out of jail, all he needs to do is run for President as a Republican?
This was not that long ago. In 2018, Daniels and one other woman went to court to be freed of the nondisclosure agreements regarding sex with Pres T. His attorney, Michael Cohen, went to jail in 2018, as follows, with Wiki's article on Cohen giving the timeline:
"he [Cohen] violated campaign-finance laws at Trump's direction 'for the principal purpose of influencing' the 2016 presidential election....
In November 2018, Cohen pleaded guilty to lying to U.S. congressional committees about efforts to build a Trump Tower in Moscow.
In December 2018, Cohen was sentenced to three years in federal prison and ordered to pay a $50,000 fine....
In February 2019, the New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division, disbarred him from practicing law in the state....
In May 2019, he reported to the federal prison near Otisville, New York....
In November 2021, he [Cohen, NOT Trump] ]completed his sentence."
I get it. We need to care. Epstein was a monster and Trump was deeply involved with him. Who knows what Trump knew or participated in. Doesn't really matter. Epstein's victims deserve justice and Pam Bondi refuses to give it to them because Trump told her not to. The face that a 15 year old was recruited by Maxwell at Mar-A-Lago, to me, is enough of a smoking gun to bear investigation. (What was she doing there in the first place? Did Trump know she was sent over to Epstein's place? Did he ask about her? What did he know about her? Did he know her at all? If he didn't, then what in the hell was she doing at Mar-A-Lago? She wasn't old enough to work there.)
And for the MAGA right wing, outrage, truth-and-justice, eff-your-feelings crowd? They'll get in line. Trump's their meal ticket. They won't cross him. They'll all do a Charlie Kirk. "A government functionary told me there's nothing there. I believe him. Why wouldn't I believe him? I'm moving on. Dan Bongino said there was no there there and when a guy like Bongino says something like that, well, it's a waste of time to keep asking questions. So, we're done."
Which brings me to the Democrats and where I think it's all hopeless. Yes, they should go full-on Jasmine Crockett on Pam Bondi. They should make all of this a campaign issue. "Elect us and we will find out to whom Pam Bondi's allegiance is dedicated: the American People or Donald Trump." Hold hearings. Find out what happened.
But they won't. They'll want to talk about inflation or egg prices or gas prices or Ukraine or -- heaven forfend, but you know they will -- culture war 80/20 issues where they're the 20%. And then they'll lose and our screwedness will be continue.
Your enthusiasm is good, but we need to revise what's said, to this: Candidates and politicians need to talk about ALL of it, not just Trump's moral costs to us as a country, but also his economic costs and his defiling of democracy.
Why? Pres. T finds it so easy to refute one thing at a time by lying.
It's MUCH harder for him to focus his lies if missiles fly at him at from three directions.
REPUBLIC, SINCE VOTING EXPANSIONS, NOW ALSO A DEMOCRACY.
We were founded as a minimal republic (a limited too few with the right to vote, very early, some thought it OK for only those with a thousand acres of land to vote).
Over the centuries, step by step, we the republic flowered into fuller and fuller democracy, as more and more were allowed to vote, black males paving the way for all women to vote, as an example, with a late round lowering the voting age from 21 1o 18. (Allowed 1972, as they had been the ones sent to Viet Nam, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution).
Agree - the Democrats need to do what Trump does - flood the zone. Trump has a very limited ability to stay focused on any one thing for very long and his minions take all their direction from him. Their strategy is to divert from what the issue of the day seems to be for them but if they're having to deal with a lot of issues they won't be able to focus.
Richard, liked the posts you flagged in July, (Thanks!)
Found them here (those posting in June June maybe less consistently good as TrumpStein had not yet happened?): https://substack.com/@ralany
"Thou dost protest," NOT "Thou doth protest". In archaic English grammar, the -st verb ending is second-person singular, so it goes with thou. (The -th ending is third-person singular, so it goes with he/she/it.)
I struggle to understand why he is so concerned. He can't run again, and with his vein disorder, he is probably dying in the next year or two; that condition is severe. So he's gonna shuffle off soon, and he's got all the power he is ever going to have, so like... why would he care?
Also, I will genuinely laugh if Trump passes away and Biden is still alive for the whole term.
Sorry, lots of people walk around with CVI and heart failure. It's treatable within limits. Sadly, he will have time to eat plenty more cheeseburgers, while ruining our nation.
And don't downplay the Stormy Daniels situation. That's important because Trump used the fraud to keep this out of the public eye until after he was elected. It is a fraud on the voters.
The sex part of it is salacious. But that isn't why is matters. It matters because it allowed Criminal Trump to cheat his way into office.
It just seems like Donald Trump must have known that Epstein was running a criminal sex trafficking ring that trafficked underage girls. Given their close palship over so many years, how would it be possible for him to not know? So, one of the things Criminal Trump owes us is an explanation of how Epstein was able to conduct his crimes for years under Donald's nose.
Somebody give Bill a raise so he can afford a decent internet connection and a camera that goes higher than 480p. the sound breaks in particular are very off putting.
Agree!! Jim Swift should be able to help him get it figured out.
Who has the card that the WSJ alleges Trump gave Epstein for his birthday?
If this is a real part of the Epstein evidence, the DOJ should have it.
If they have it, then the WSJ could use a FOIA request on it. Or, they could demand it be produced during discovery if there's a real defamation case. And if the DOJ has it, then AG Bondi should have control over it. What does that mean for her?
But suppose the DOJ doesn't have it. What does that mean? That it's a forgery? That someone else has it? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, IF SOMEONE ELSE HAS IT?
If it's a real thing, I hope the DOJ has it, and that it will be produced during discovery.
In any case, I agree with everyone. There's no chance the WSJ put this story out without vetting the evidence about it. They either were able to have experts authenticate if for them or they have credible evidence the DOJ has it.
Even so, the important thing about this story isn't Trump, it isn't Epstein, it isn't conspiracy theories, it isn't what it does to Trump's popularity. The important thing is about what it says about the ability of the rich and powerful to use their wealth and power to commit crimes and escape accountability. There's plenty of evidence on that front. The center of the action committed horrible crimes for years in the presence and with the knowledge of the rich and powerful. I think that's been established.
What do we plan to do about that?
My understanding is that it was part of the evidence, so Bondi has probably tossed it in the Potomac by now.
We should remember that the reason Criminal Trump committed 34 counts of fraud, the counts he was convicted of in New York, was because he wanted to make sure that his encounter with Stormy Daniels (Stephanie Clifford) didn't become public. He knew that if it came out, the Hollywood Access tape would be played over and over in the final weeks of the 2016 campaign. That would have probably doomed his campaign. The Hollywood Access scandal had already been wiped off the front pages with false claims about Hillary Clinton. But if the Stormy story had surfaced, the tapes would have come back out.
He also lied to his supporters and bilked them out of hundreds of millions of dollars by claiming he'd won the 2020 presidential election. This was (IMO) a colossal instance of fraud, and it's what funded his come-back campaign. Plus, it lead to the insurrection.
He's cheated his way into the Oval Office twice.
Even if you give him a complete pass on all the Epstein stuff (which would take willful ignorance, wouldn't it?) he should have long ago been swept into the dustbin of history.
Dem's, this is your ready-made weapon and scandal. Perhaps the greatest vehicle forward for any party since Watergate- IF used correctly. If you fail to grab hold and ride it to victory, in 2026 and 2028, shame on you. And inexcusable. Dem's, FGS, take your advantage here and use it. Please recognize: your fight is for our country.
Yes, "going high" certainly hasn't paid off!
Is there anyone in the WH, cabinet or other positions close to Trump who is known to be associated with him during his Epstein days? It strikes me that there may be roles that have contact with school girls of various ages, and for the sake of appearances at the very least, they should be considered a safety risk while so much is unknown.
She found her glases...
THIS MAN HAS RAPED A WOMAN IN A DRESSING ROOM. Could he have been a pedophile? Look at how he talked about his own daughter!!!!!
Prince Andrew was the son of the reigning Queen. Not the nephew of the king.
Actually, Queen Elizabeth II is dead; the present king, Charles III is Prince Andrew’s brother. (I made this point earlier in the thread, sorry to repeat!)
I was speaking about the situation at the time period Sarah was discussing.
Sorry - misunderstood.
Here is a prisoners dilemma conspiracy theory - If trump was given immunity to give evidence against Epstein in 2005/2006 then everything makes more sense. Ghislaine would also know this and neither she nor Trump could trust the other on any possible future deal.
Is Katie Johnson’s story discounted? Is her having backed off the case due to death threats untrue? She was 13 at the time she said she was raped by Donald Trump. Was that ever taken seriously? I’m sure I’m not the only one who has watched that horrifying video of her telling her story. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thought many of the details plausible. Is it verification of that story completely abandoned in this bigger picture? Can the same be said for the testimonies, if they exist, of some of the other thousand or so girls/young women who are alleged to have been involved in this nightmare? The current president of the United States is alleged to be involved with a convicted sex offender and much of the alleged evidence hasn’t been investigated properly. It’s staggering. Watergate? A burglary can bring down a president but this case can’t even be properly investigated?
There's a difference between Watergate and this. Members of Congress were personally threatened by Watergate, because it meant that the sitting President was spying on political opponents. Everyone in Congress on both sides realized that if the President could spy on them with impunity, he could control them. They were personally threatened by Watergate.
The Epstein thing implies that people in power can exploit children and women. That doesn't threaten sitting members of Congress.
Of course, they should have a conscience, but the reality is that a President who threatens Senators and Representatives is going down. A President who threatens women isn't going to get an Act of Congress.
I'm sure Katie Johnson’s story was worth real investigation. If anything were to change, that would be a great first step, to make sure that stories from women about powerful men got their just due.
You are of course totally right; I was thinking more generally of general awfulness/culpability/ugliness/criminality/collusion/abuse…the list is endless, isn’t it. And perhaps a faint (ha!) hope that everyone in Congress on both sides would recognise the authoritarian takeover that surely threatens all of them and all of us - worldwide.
I'm continually disappointed in our politicians here. It's been obvious to me for years that Trump and his backers are trying to build a fascist dictatorship.
Even back in August 2020, in the last Trump Administration, he was sending agents into states to try to get a pretext to use federal government to take over police powers. People in the states fought back in the courts, and that didn't come to fruition. But five years later, he's got National Guard and Marines in Los Angeles on a pretext. He's using a huge influx of money to build up ICE as essentially a secret police force.
I'm not discounting what you said about Katie Johnson. It's an important aspect of the whole thing. The problems created by Criminal Trump are, indeed, endless.
It's just that people think of Watergate as something about a burglary. The "plumbers" broke into the DNC headquarters. It was legitimately a very big deal.
Oh, you are totally right, it was legitimately an enormous deal; which brought the government down, quite rightly. What’s staggering here is that the government isn’t brought down by any of this. Yet. Let’s hope there’s still hope? Maybe we’ll have to wait for Trump to shoot a man on 5th Avenue? It would be poetic justice if that were to bring him down, although one would have to feel sorry for the victim…
It's just difficult to bring the government down here, because the only effective way to do that is to get a vote of 2/3 in the Senate to remove the President. Given the number of Republicans in the Senate, that's probably not going to happen, short of real evidence that Trump was himself guilty of raping an underage girl.
Morally, all of this should have prevented him from becoming President in the first place.
But, yeah, it would be poetic justice if his minor member resulted in his dismissal from office. He's apparently misused it for years. It would be real justice for one of these women to get him where the hairs are short and bring him down.
Covering up is, in itself, a crime in many instances and jurisdictions.
What worries me is this: how do we know all the files are being kept safely and not being culled of important information ?
Maybe we will have cause to be grateful to Musk for stealing all the government data he could get . . .
They’re all such predators
My problem with the whole maga influencers is that some of them are just doing it for money 💰 For instance Meygn Kelly. Remember back when she was on nbc the Today show. Then she was on fox news. When she was on fox news her show was very moderate. She blasted a guest for misgendering a trans person and I forget the news story. Now she's maga??? Her recent episode had her raging like a mad person that Jeffrey epstin is still alive. We all remember when conspiracy theories was a fun rabbit hole to go down with your friends now we've got grown women and men raging anger in there eyes 👀 it's quite concerning
I disagree with Sarah that Democrats should be more involved in this situation at this stage. It would likely be counter-productive by distracting from the current unraveling of this scandal and instead draw negative attention, ire, and false accusations by Trump and the MAGAs. This would only take away the focus from the current pressure being exerted by the public and even some Trump supporters.
I’m not sure what makes Sarah shy away a bit from acknowledging the very strong likelihood that Trump did abuse young girls along with Epstein. Trump has made numerous disgusting sexual comments about his own daughters, especially Ivanka.
Some of the pictures of them together are enough to make your stomach churn, but here are just a few of the horrifically creepy things he has said about her over the years:
1) “Don’t you think my daughter’s hot? She’s hot, right?”
2) When asked how he would react if Ivanka, a former teen model, posed for Playboy, Trump replied, "It would be really disappointing — not really — but it would depend on what's inside the magazine."
He added: "I don't think Ivanka would do that, although she does have a very nice figure. I've said if Ivanka weren't my daughter, perhaps I'd be dating her."
3) Mr Trump replies in the affirmative when host Howard Stern asks him if he can call Ivanka "a piece of ass”.
4) “Yeah, she's really something, and what a beauty, that one. If I weren't happily married and, ya know, her father . . .”
5) During a Feb. 27, 2013, interview on The Wendy Williams Show, Trump was asked what he and his daughter both consider their favorite things. Trump answered, “I was going to say sex, but I can relate to [golf and real estate].”
6) “You know who’s one of the great beauties of the world, according to everybody? And I helped create her. Ivanka. My daughter, Ivanka. She’s 6 feet tall, she’s got the best body.”
7) In an early draft of a piece by Washington Post columnist Richard Cohen, he purportedly wrote that “President-elect Donald Trump once asked, ‘Is it wrong to be more sexually attracted to your own daughter than your wife?’ — but the quote was quietly removed before the syndicated column was published.”
8) According to The New Republic, “’Aides said he talked about Ivanka Trump’s breasts, her backside and what it might be like to have sex with her, remarks that once led [former Chief of Staff] John Kelly to remind the president that Ivanka was his daughter,’ Taylor, who served as a Department of Homeland Security chief of staff under Trump, wrote in his book.
He made no secret of the fact that he’d walk in on the Miss Teen USA dressing room. He told a 21 year old pageant contestant that she would need to lie about her age and say she is 17 in order to get a job in the entertainment industry. I don’t think it’s that unreasonable to infer that he would be a participant in either trafficking or abusing the victims. We may not have any hard proof, but we know enough about his character and his relationship with Epstein to read between the lines. Maybe it’s not enough to get him charged with a crime or convicted in a court of law, but in the court of public opinion it’s obvious he’s a predatory sexual deviant.
someone else has doubtless pointed this out, but Prince Andrew is the son of Queen Elizabeth II, and is the brother of the now king, Charles.
Name the island 🏝️
Where’s the account of 💰💸
Lots of dots not connected
follow the money!
With all of this Trump - Epstein stuff coming out now, how come no one is directing more scrutiny towards NBC for making a reality tv star out of a man who was running around with a pedophile sex trafficker?
The story is really all about the victims. There was no one there to protect them as their lives were affected forever.
Nothing is more disgusting than Pam Bondi and Karoline Leavitt as women and mothers trying to help men powerful men cover up child / human trafficking
Child, sexual abuse, and exploitation
Abuse to women
They are not talking about the victims
My heart goes out to each and everyone of these victims that were so violated as children .
https://open.substack.com/pub/closertotheedge/p/the-dead-dont-testify?r=5a5n7z&utm_medium=ios
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkItEz1cuqc
https://substack.com/@meidastouch/note/c-134690681?r=eit6y&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Sigh. No, its not the Dems on the list. Its the intelligence agencies; ours and others. It genuinely pains me to tell you that -- and this makes me want to puke -- but the horrific Tucker Carlson has nailed this one. It was a money laundering operation, and the multiple links to both Israeli intelligence and our own are alarming and beyond explanation without a full investigation. No one can explain how this very mediocre degenerate man accumulated such a fortune, or, as Dem Senator Wyden has now noted, how he laundered more than a billion dollars. For what? Who the hell could he blackmail for money in these staggering amounts? Putin? Why did he get a sweetheart deal in 2006, and who told the prosecutor to stand down? Only George W or his hapless torney General had such power. It sure as hell wasn't to protect Clinton, Gates or Trump. Until the files are open and we get to see it all, this will remain a scandal for the intelligence agencies. The silence in the Bulwark about the links is deafening, and that is very disconcerting for subscribers like me, but not surprising.
In a perfect world, the Blue state Dems [e.g. AIPAC literally bought my NY congressman Latimer's seat for him!] who are helping Trump keep this covered up should all be primaried and lose their seats, but unfortunately, a lot of them have gotten used to that nice AIPAC money. The base has moved on from making excuses for everything Israel does, but their Washington 'representatives" are sitting tight and desperately hoping this all goes away. This won't. I am not a Bernie person, and I sure as hell am not a fan of Thomas Massie, but this nonsense has to end. Release it all now.
The reason the dems are not willing to move forward. There are dems on the list. Release the list, let the chips fall where they may.
I hope the Bulwark invests in its own research on this story, Epstein
..all those powerful men involved with Epstein and Trump specifically. Great that you’ve prioritized this coverage— and sometimes the basic facts are
missing since you’re commentators are new to the ‘story’. The Bulwark is a very important outlet protecting democracy in this moment💚
Sarah & Bill, Always a pleasure to hear your insights.I been listening to the breath of reporting since the Epstein backlash broke. The commentary and analysis throughout the media sphere has been exhaustive. Yet my thoughts and questions persist. Unless Trump is actually linked by evidence to a crime, nothing happens. If Trump is linked, I look around and say who's gonna prosecute? What will Congress do? They've shown what they will do, nothing. Will elections solve our problems? At this juncture, that is debatable. The Supreme Court? Seriously, those partisan hacks.
Trump has all the power in the world ar his disposal. The devastation of American society continues by the day, not only in broad daylight, but most certainly under cover. The question that keeps swirling through my head is who or what can stop it? As I look out on the horizon, I confess, I don't see the answer.
Does anyone remember the weekly standard 🤔 proto bulwark.
There is an Epstein Conspiracy. It is the conspiracy of our Law Enforcement, Legal Systems, Political and Financial Systems to protect rich powerful men at the expense of young women and girls who are demeaned, devalued, and dismissed.
Non white and non Christians of every gender and age are also devalued and dismissed
Relevant
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CYX19-Vxkac
Prince Andrew is King Charles’ younger brother.
His mommy saved his ass in all of this. He was potentially looking at charges.
Trump's sycophants will make some noise, because they have eggs on their faces over the Epstein obsession. But none of them want to pursue this long or hard enough to help bring Trump down, because that would be killing their golden goose. Trump is right to think he can stall for time and let this die out. In a few months we will all be wondering what happened to all the Epstein outrage, while Trump pillages some other part of the government or planet.
Prince Andrew is not the king's nephew. His mother was the queen of England, Elizabeth II. Despite having nearly limitless resources and influence (and while his mother was the queen) he had to give up a bunch of military and royal titles including "His Royal Highness" after settling with Virginia Giuffre. That's a lot to give up if you're innocent. It seems like more people were involved than just Epstein and Maxwell.
duh, we live in a culture of misogyny, sexual abuse, and violence of woman and children as a common experience across cultures and financial status, and, time - it's a centuries old story
"Release the kraken"! :)
Andrew Coymo got taken down by his "handsyness".
I hate conspiracy theories. But, consider Trump’s modeling agency (tourist visas, Melania one of the models) and beauty pageants. And the falling out, wasn’t that Trump bidding away a property Epstein thought he had? Not a principled break.
I never thought he killed himself. Not maga . Those girls who were sexually assaulted by trump—why don’t we believe them in this country? The women came forward—2016 nothing—ignored. Also the drawing—it’s something they shared. Could’ve been a boat—was a woman with all the insinuations written in it. It’s sad that media never pushed for the victims to be heard. Katie Johnson was 13. She accused Trump. Ever listen? It’s wild. How we allow it—women are still not believed.
I read the 2006 Epstein Grand Jury transcript. Some of the girls were only 14. The questions from the jurors clearly blamed the victims. Did they conceal their age? Did they try to stop him? Do they regret their choices? Do they know they committed crimes? It was truly appalling.
"This is a disgraceful coverup, and we demand to have The Files released."
We know what's in the files: Trump knew of the criminality of the Epstein circle and was fine with it.
Ghislaine knows all, but the prosecutors aren't interested in knowing more in some kind of deal.
The Roy Cohn School of self-preservation.
He's been accused for years. I'm not into conspiracies, but it seems quite plausible to me that Trump is in the Epstein thing up to his eyeballs.
https://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-rape-lawsuit-dropped-230770
Sarah, yes, there’s stuff on Trump.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/20/us/politics/epstein-employee-trump-investigation.html?unlocked_article_code=1.X08.ycMR.ydIberduU7-o&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
This is not fundamentally a political story, it is an unprecedented criminal story.
Trump is not playing chess, he knows he is guilty and that if a full exposure develops he is toast.
Prince Andrew - King Charles' brother. Are you going to discuss Senator Ron Wyden's money trail?
Rejoice! The Rejected Will Lead the Revival - This Is God’s Way,” please pass it on.
I am an artist. Those aren't what I would call drawings, maybe doodling? By the way, he did get paid for all that crap. (just like all other Trump products; crap that is always overpriced) Also, what f--k is that he calls a signature?
to somewhat digress: What are Americans talking about in their kitchens? In mine, it's not Epstein and it's not even inflation ... it's the fact that not one iota of the current administration has any trustworthiness.
Total corruption, total slide into obvious, unabashed racist fascism ... ...
# just sayin'
Just for context, the story I've heard from MAGA people is "Yes, he was a playboy in his younger days (as were many in the crazy days of the 80s & 90s in omgosh that den of iniquity New York City!!), but then he reformed and now all he cares about is America/Americans." Some also associate his reform with finding God, developing a closer relationship with God, yada yada.
But the past is forgiven in either case.
Not sure that forgiveness would extend to sex with a 14 year old, but I think it definitely would extend to sex with a 16 year old (if it happened in the 80s or 90s in New York City!!).
I have been told that Trump had a deep and sincere change of opinion on abortion. I had no idea how to argue against such a fantasy.
Lol. Yeah.
100%.
Since Trump is suing the Wall Street Journal, I am really looking forward to discovery and him being deposed under oath. Bring it on, Don!
A problem in thinking Trump supporters will turn away from him if he is even suspected of pedophilia, is that when we think of "pedophilia" we associate it as sex with small children. Prepubescent. Epstein and (possibly) Trump were having sex with post pubescent teenage girls. Illegal, yes. And from a legal standpoint, pedophilia. But not the creepiness that sex with small children brings to mind, because the biological line between underage teens and young (legal age) women is not as clear as the legal line, which varies from 16-18 (age of consent). The Feds draw the line at 18, and this is where the sex trafficking comes into play.
Yes, what Epstein and possibly Trump did was wrong. And illegal in Epsteins case. And yes, Trump's close association with Epstein ought to be enough to stop supporting him, since there is plenty of other evidence that he is a sexual predator. But it won't have the resonance we think it should have, even if it is all confirmed by whatever is in the FBI files.
Yes!
They'll turn away from him because he didn't reveal the files, not what he did that's revealed in the files.
Maybe. But I doubt it. Over time they will just find some other shiny object. They don't WANT to bring him down. These aren't sincere journalists. They are sycophants.
I miraculously still have a teeny tiny bit of hopefulness 🙂
As Andy said to Red in Shawshank Redemption, after his situation seemed utterly hopeless, "Hope is a good thing Red."
WP printed their article and the feds prolong the attention as a way to roll Mr. Trump out the back door onto the loading dock. Suffering mental decline, he needs to retire now.
I think many of us who detest Trump have gotten their hopes up that this is his Waterloo. I doubt it. My guess is that he's trying to protect some of his friends. As far as his conduct, his voters have tolerated over 20 credible allegations of sexual abuse; an adverse verdict for sexual assault; numerous documented frauds; his prompting a violent attack on the Capital; and years of incompetence in office. Logic tells me he'll ride this out just fine. But I'd be thrilled to be wrong.
I think you are exactly right. Trump's sexual predation is baked into the cake.
Small correction, probably already made by others. Prince Andrew is the son of the current king of the UK and the Commonwealth (Charlse). Not his nephew.
One time 2nd in line to the throne.
Actually Andrew is the younger brother of King Charles.
Ha you're right. How did I screw that up. I must have been thinking about him being the queens son (along with Charles of course) I'm not used to the new monarch yet
Wouldn’t the DOJ and FBI etc have erased any trace of trump in the files by now?
"FBI asked to "flag" Epstein files that mention Trump, senator says" July 18, Axios
Apparently not.
is this the sort of stuff that would fit into the "why is trump so pro-Putin"?
Is this the kind of stuff, surmised, that Putin "had" on Trump?
Epstein introduced Melania to Trump.
Sarah. Your hair looks fantastic 😊. Thanks you guys for sharing. Appreciate hearing you and Bills thoughts and breaking down the details
By calling up influencers and arm twisting them to shut them up, isn’t Trump—right now publicly—engaged in the coverup of the Epstein case that MAGA has long vehemently accused Dems of?
Amazing how it’s always projection.
The thing that stuck out to me in Trump's "scene" in his birthday card to Epstein was this sentence:
“Enigmas never age, have you noticed that?”
First, what does that mean? Second, “enigma” isn't a word I would expect Trump to use.
Well, "enigma" is an anagram of "gamine" -- "a young woman with a mischievous, boyish charm," according to Merriam-Webster.
Now it makes sense.
"Gamine" is an even more obscure word than "enigma". I had never heard of the word before last week.
Points for creativity there, but that's about it
Yes, no smoking gun here.
Her name is pronounced Geelon - like Elon with a G
It's actually more like "hard G-Elaine". That's the British version, but there's actually two other pronunciations if the Ghislane in question is French, so I now am throwing up my hands.
French per my French friend. Let’s just call her a criminal.
Agreed.
A friend sent me a YouTube link to a Don Lemon podcast where he is speaking to a person who is supposed to be Jeffery Epstein’s brother - but it’s only audio on his part, so you can’t see the brother.
It was about how the brother has been denied any information regarding Jeffery’s death, and other odd occurrences. (Many threads to pull)
The podcast was 5-6 days ago. I won’t link bc I don’t know if this is really Epstein’s brother. But it is easily found.
Assuming the statements are accurate, the case for Epstein being killed rather than committing suicide was convincing.
Where did Epstein’s services fall in relationship to HIV epidemic among all but what seemed like the wealth white guys?
Please get Bill a better internet connection!
Yes! And instruct him to stop mumbling!
The other question - who leaked the birthday card and what else do they have? All of Epstein’s houses were wired with cameras - who else had/has access to those tapes?? There are many layers, I hope investigative journalists get back on this story. We all deserve to know the full story about what Epstein was up to. DJT may not have been involved in the underage sex, he said in an interview to the effect of he “liked them young, but 25 was a good number”, but he had to have known what was happening in his friend circle in the 80’s/90’s….
Why did Alex Acosta give him such a light plea deal? Why did he say in the transition team interview that he was told to drop it because Epstein was intelligence…
Let it all come to light!
Alex Acosta told the Senate he was told to go easy on Epstein because he was an intelligence asset, so I have been told.
From Wikipedia: "Acosta later said he offered a lenient plea deal because he was told that Epstein 'belonged to intelligence', was 'above his pay grade' and to 'leave it alone'."
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/10/i-called-everyone-in-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book/#13
I wonder what insights our former VP, former prosecutor Kamala Harris might have …
I didn’t pay much attention to all of this back in 2008 or really too much in 2019 (then covid happened…). But I’ve started reading and paying attention - this whole thing with Epstein could be so much bigger. Epstein’s ties to Wexner, collapse of financial businesses he worked at, possible money laundering, Trump’s bankruptcies, possible money laundering, connections to Israeli Military Intelligence, KGB. Investigative journalists need to really start digging. We deserve to know the truth.
The Republican Party is an authoritarian party now. This won't have any significant impact. Trump's lost some tech bro's, some manosphere conspiracy bro's but that's marginal. Structurally the Party and right wing voters know Trump is a Cad and a criminal. That's his super power. Abbott will Gerrymander Texas, in NC they fought a ridiculous battle against a lost State Supreme Court seat. Democrats banked on 5 or 10% of "normie" Republicans peeling away and staying home or voting for Harris, It didn't happen, it won't happen
Good broadcast. Covered most of the bases. But it missed one of the very important ones. As Sheldon Whitehouse just pointed out, anytime Trump, call something a hoax, it’s about -450 Draft Kings that it’s true. Well, there is one more thing Trump has called a hoax that starts acquiring some connective tissue, as Sarah put it, with the Epstein case and the other sex scandals Trump has documentably been involved in. Russiagate. Not so much the political side of that, but the prostitution and peeing in Obama‘s bed in Moscow part. Trump has been very successful in discrediting both the political and sexual aspect of Russiagate with a large swath of the American public. But with the Epstein thing now emerging, Trump has to be worried not only about what might be in the Epstein files, but what might show up in the Russiagate files if the press starts digging back into them as well. Is the Kompromat real? Is Vlad blackmailing Trump over nothing just bedsheets, but also visitations from nubile Russian girls while he was visiting Moscow. Read the Wikipedia file on Russiagate for the details. All of this is coming together in terms of the character question: would you trust this man with your daughter or sister? What we don’t yet know about the Epstein files, but what appears to be being covered up, seems to point in the direction of this guy being willing to do anything of a sexual nature, perhaps this side of bestiality. But Trump can put an end to all of this wild speculation. Simply release the complete Epstein record and let us judge whether we believe him when he tells us there is no there there, and hence, probably, no there there in Russiagate. It’s always the cover-up.
,
I believe he did all the things brought up by babies. There is plenty of evidence online. Barbie Bondi has had plenty of time to try and bury the evidence. There should be a push for a Special Prosecutor to investigate. I'm getting sick of the criminality and covering up of Trump's sick mind.
babies?
14 and under.
How Katie Johnson's (pseudonym) 2016 affidavit didn't get the coverage it deserved was a colossal failure. I believe her. In totality this is the biggest coverup in American history. He was credibly accused of raping and sodomizing a 13 year old. This is America's commander in chief.
I had the same question so I researched this a bit more and learned nothing about her story is verifiable. Not only that, but it’s unclear if she even really exists.
Snopes.com did a deep dive on it: https://www.snopes.com/news/2024/09/03/trump-epstein-katie-johnson/
One thing is for sure: if she is real and telling the truth, she couldn’t have chosen a worse person to come forward to than Norm Lubow. I think some news orgs did report on it initially, but they never revisited it because there were never any new developments and a lot of unanswered questions surrounding the credibility of the story given the Lubow connection.
He claims he encouraged her to file a lawsuit after they met at a party and she told him about it. Why in hell would she confess such a sensitive and traumatic story to the Jerry Springer producer whose entire career is based on being a professional media troll? Someone she doesn’t even know? And why would she seek counsel from a patent attorney?? The whole thing is just bizarre.
Feeling a bit frustrated that the true backdrop of this story, hasn’t broken through, from what I’ve heard so far from The Bulwark. This is NOT a story about protecting any, one politician. This is about the “Bro Culture” on both sides of the aisle, protecting themselves and other powerful men. Living in Palm Beach County for 30 years, the sweetheart deal he got in PB County, is the thing that victims attorneys have been fighting for years. Interview their lawyers. Local
Prosecutors were ready to prosecute, and clearly were told to stand down, when the feds got involved back then. Powerful men had motive to make this go away. Get George Conway on those court filings.
I would like to, first, express gratitude and admiration to Sarah and Bill for keeping this discussion alive with evident passion and compassion. I’m old enough to have primarily known Bill Kristol as a conservative and I realize Sarah was (not sure how folks identify aside from “pro-democracy” now) a Republican and is a strategist. Political strategists, in my experience, are fairly dispassionate as the job is aggregation and analysis, so I really appreciate her palpable human decency and feeling vis a vis this case. Here comes the “however”. Listening today I realized that it is my responsibility to put my knowledge and experience as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, as well as, the target of flagrant sexism and male abuse of power as an adult. I variously fought and smiled my way through that. Your conversation convinced me that—contrary to my assumption that everyone must consider this a known entity in 2025 — my mundane experiences are worth sharing not in a therapeutic way, but as overlooked information. I’m actually happy that millennial women in powerful positions like Sarah have not suffered the same way my generation did, just as my mother’s generation worked to make life better for women born in the 1960s. Baby steps. The main thing I can say here today is that, in reality, none of this was secret or conspiratorial in nature. The type of lawless abuse that Epstein and Trump engaged in was par for the course. I will try to write in detail about this in the future but, as but one example, I worked in hospitality for many years between 1984 and about 2001 as a waitress, hotel maid, restaurant hostess, etc. I could not possibly count the number of creepy encounters I faced. I was also a fit model in the 1980s, including work at the late, great Bonwitt Teller, which Trump Tower was physically built around. I tread that floor modeling outfits and fragrances. Trump passed through once and quite grossly sidled up to me to say, “you are like a gorgeous painting…” before his entourage pulled him away. It was not notable. His “grab them by the pussy” self-acknowledgement of sexual assault was absolutely acceptable. In the 1980s until, obviously, at least, the last election. When I finally became a “white collar” worker, I was an archivist for an elderly man in his mid-70s, when I, at 38, was fired because I would not have a sexual relationship with that man. I hesitated but did end up taking legal action. My lawyer (part of a well known legal rights activist practice) was great but we learned that my former boss had hired Bill O’Reilly’s team. The kind lawyer I had hired (as an unemployed person, by the way) told me that that team would smear me in any way imaginable: go to any therapist I had seen, ex-boyfriends, etc. It could be 5+ years of my life. Five more years given over to creepy men. So I settled.
Sorry this got long! Bottom line, please interview sexual trauma specialists, lawyers (like Gloria Alread) who have been at the frontlines of this for years, and activist, non-anonymous abuse survivors! I say this because the incredulity I see among reporters and pundits is out-of-touch with the lived experience of a very large part of the population. On a pop culture level, have you watched the video of Sean Combs abusing Cassie Ventura? Have you read, in addition to the fabulous Julie K. Brown, Vicky Ward’s work on Epstein and “Vanity Fair”? There are also very informative documentaries about Epstein that focus more on his victims than his possible suicide.
The reason Democrats aren’t hitting this hard is that of the potentially hundreds of me involved (a number Bill suggested today) there are undoubtedly well-known men of all political backgrounds.
This is a human rights issue. Perhaps not as topical or urgent as what brought innocent men to CECOT, but a human rights issue, nonetheless. Again thanks for being in this conversation! Very few are willing to open this particular can of worms.
"The type of lawless abuse that Epstein and Trump engaged in was par for the course." Having been a teen in the 80s, I will second this. The culture was such that even I and my girlfriends didn't think of it as "that wrong." When I watched the Brett Kavanaugh hearings, I had some flashbacks, so to speak. Also watching the Pretty Baby: Brooke Shields documentary. (The original Pretty Baby movie came out in 1978.)
And I think there are plenty of people nowadays that still don't think it is "that wrong." (For pedophilia involving prepubescent children, yes they are horrified. But a teenager, not so much.)
(I should clarify: These things I am describing with me or with my friends in the 80s, they *were* very bad. I just didn't really know so much that they were bad at the time, because it was more acceptable back then for men to be creeps and grape ists.)
Thanks for sharing this. I relate — down to the Brooke Shields documentary.
Thank you for sharing your ghastly experiences with us.
The abusive men are indeed worms.
Andrew is King Charles’s brother. Elizabeth’s son. The one who married Sarah Ferguson.
Guiffre sued him in Civil Court. After his lawyers spent almost a year trying to get the case thrown out, they settled out of court for millions (with the Queen paying at least part of it).
And then came the interview... Reportedly he thought he handled it quite well until the reviews came in the next day. He said he couldn't have had sex with Guiffre on the day in question because he was at a pizza restaurant with one of his daughters and that Guiffre mentioned how sweaty he was but he couldn't sweat because he was such a hero in the Falkland War.
It's worth watching for the humor. The super rich are completely oblivious to how the rest of us live and how they are perceived.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtBS8COhhhM&t=1s&ab_channel=BBCNews
Yes. It was after that, that the Queen stripped him of any official duties. Power and privilege is the backdrop for this whole story.
This is a horrendous story.
To Sarah's point about it being too bad the Stormy Daniels case was the one that landed---it's too bad it was known as the Hush Money case. It was falsifying business records, but the press never called it that.
Additionally, according to Ms Daniels it was not consensual sex as described by Bill K. She stated that he did not coerce her but that there was an "imbalance of power." Trump stood in front of the door in his underwear and told her "This is the only way your getting out of the trailer park". She also stated in her testimony that she blacked out (though she had not taken drugs or alcohol) and when she came to she was on the bed with most of her clothes off. She testified that "I didn't know how I got there, I was trying to think of anything other than what was happening." She left quickly after it was over. That isn't consensual sex IMHO.
Thank you for that clarification.
Is it crazy to think Melania was involved, or at least knew? Was she deposed during the investigation? Could explain some of Trump’s rat trap behavior, and would make it harder for his own deniability.
She met Trump on the "Lolitta express" where she was having porn pictures taken that are all over the Internet. In days of yore we referred to people like her as "tramps, trollips, strumpettes, etc" She is NOT innocent.
Why isn’t Maureen Comey doing interviews on this stuff? She was in the room on these cases, at the very least she could be giving background and letting people what threads to pull on.
Maxwell is currently appealing her conviction, I think. That’s why Ms. Comey can’t say anything. For all she knows, Maxwell could have a re-trial.
For all we know, perhaps she IS giving background.
Prince Andrew = brother of current King Charles and son of then Queen Elizabeth. Andrew could partially redeem himself by speaking the truth about Epstein. Especially important since the recent death by suicide of Virginia [Roberts] Giuffre in Australia.
I think he will just have to live with his own conscience. I imagine the royal family would do everything possible to keep him quiet and out of the picture. From what I've gathered about the royals, they don't have as much agency in their own lives as you and I do.
The age of consent in most European countries, including Russia, is 16. In Hungary it is 14.
Trump and Epstein shared a lot back in the day.
The age of consent in the US varies by state from between 16 and 18. That is currently. When I was a teenager, a thousand years ago, I remember it being 16 everywhere except some states 14.
A lot of the "Dems are all pedo lizard people who eat babies" stuff that Qanon pushed and others took up stemmed from the existence of the Epstein file. How the elites (Democrats) won't release it because it will expose Clintons/Obamas/Biden as what they are.
Not that we didn't know this already, but maybe MAGA will figure out that their whole cult is built on sand.
And on thousand-year-old antisemitic tropes used to justify the vicious murders of Jews. (Maybe older. 1200s? I forget.)
The Romans hated Jews (amongst others), stuck them in ghettos, and called them pretty much the same things they're called today.
Don't forget that trump commented on tape about Epstein's preference for really young girls.
And why was DOJ instructed/determined to search through all the files looking for trump's name in those files. 1000 folks assigned to work on this, but there's no THERE there???? I'm just asking questions!
Watch a little of this: It's totally unbelievable...
https://open.substack.com/pub/zeteo/p/is-this-the-craziest-debate-mehdi?r=1hdkhs&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
Wow, Mehdi brings it! Thanks for sharing the link. I don't think I can stomach the entire thing, but he is awesome.
Dems need to keep kicking the hornet's nest and keep it in the news, then watch MAGA eat itself without getting too caught up.
"Whoever is in it, whoever goes to jail, it doesn't matter which 'side' they're on, everything should come out." should be the Dem mantra for the next 18 months.
I don’t do a lot of social media but just enough to see how many now-women are just getting ready to tell stories they haven’t told previously. They are being encouraged to go find reporters already reporting the story. It’s going to make for a huge amount of work to get to the realest most central facts, but there seems to be significant momentum to get there, with or without DoJ cooperation. If we can just stop minimizing the story, encourage the brave victims and the institutions working to listen and accumulate their information, the important work will be done and the trap will continue to tighten until the release is forced. We don’t have a lot of agency here, but let’s commit to using what we do have!
Am I the only one who thinks that maybe this Epstein shit storm might just be a distraction that keeps our eyes off Trump & Co’s present and ongoing crime spree?
But note, not much [if anything] can be done about the crime. He got away with J6, he has immunity, and he'll never be held to account for his current crimes.
Tut-tutting Trump and MAGA about their heinous activity won't make any kind of dent in his support -- that's the stuff they voted for. MAGA is tearing itself apart about this, so it needs all the press we can give it.
I'm glad MAGA is pissed about it. But I am afraid that if we hype it too much then they will buy into Trump's excuse that it is all a "Democrat Hoax." If they really are tearing themselves apart over it, maybe we should just get out of the way?
Keep it in the news, make sure everybody is talking about it, then get out of the way and let MAGA eat itself. This is the first big crack in his base, and we have to widen the breach. The Dems should, as a party, promise to release the whole thing from now until next Nov.
Maybe he felt that his first administration put an end to it all by convicting Epstein
Epstein was convicted in 2008, so he was convicted under Bush, not Trump. He was arrested a second time and died in custody under Trump.
I think that video of Trump and Epstein at the party is a pretty clear indication that Trump has at least done cocaine.
oh ya...he's still all jacked up on steroids, human growth hormone and stimulants
But, he knew and didn't do anything about it or expose it, then he is culpable -- even if he was not into young girls.
Unfortunately, there is a statute of limitations on child sexual abuse/assault as I know sadly first hand.
I want all the files released and everyone involved with facilitating the harm done to these young g girls.
Trump has a history of misogyny and needs to be held accountable for it.
What about civil suits?
Yes, civil suits are a remedy
I wish you two had been on this YEARS ago. The horror of this needs to be known. Guilty need punished.
Since 2019, I've been on the conspiracy side of this story, I don't think it's just MAGA. I don't care WHO is involved in trafficking these young teenagers, their names need to get out there. I don't care what their ideology or political leanings are.
That's the part that MAGA doesn't understand. They worship Trumpo as a god, and assume that anyone who voted for Kamala/Biden/Obama/Hillary do the same.
Bill Kristol is hard to listen to; he lowers his voice at times, mumbles, etc. May I gently suggest he enunciate more in these discussions??
So glad you mentioned his voice. I have thought this frequently when listening to him on various episodes
I understand what you're saying, but would say you just need to adapt and accept. Bill's speaking style includes tons of asides, parenthetical remarks, qualifications. I think he is thinking about what he is saying while he says it, and realizes what he may have set out *declare* he really needs to hedge on.
For me, beats the hell out of people who ascribe to "I may be wrong, but I'm never in doubt"
Agree. And while we're at it, I would like to hear Sarah finish her sentences. This speech habit of assuming your listeners know what you are going to say and dropping the tail end of a sentence has become more and more prevalent among Millennials and it drives me crazy.
I think he needs a better mic set up.
I run mine at Substack at 1.5x speed, and yes, at that speed, Bill is hard to listen to.
Maybe it’s your device? I’m listening through the speakers of an iPhone 16 Pro Max and he’s very clear to my heavily abused ears.
I'm watching on TV. I don't want to turn it up too much because Sarah really projects! LOL Maybe part of the problem is the big difference in how loud each speaks.
Sleeping with 18 year-olds, even in orgies, is not going to phase Maga, considering what is already known about his sexual history. His wild effort to shut down the epstein this last week indicates that there is something very concerning to Trump in those files Trump did not know or think about in the past. Very peculiar.
I'm wondering if it is something other than things related to sexual behavior.
Brainstorming here. And also speculating wildly: Trump was not a pederast, but he did have sex with some of the women in Epstein's employ (?). One was a favorite of Epstein's whom Epstein nevertheless offered to the Donald. Sex was had. Her name was Melania and the rest is history. I should write screenplays.
I find it really really difficult to imagine that Trump has never had sex with a teenager.
Exactly. If he went to orgies and slept with hundreds of women out of wedlock, even when he was married, NOBODY would care, esp the "sanctity of marriage" crowd. So yea, there's something in there that would hurt him worse than sitting on them has and will.