This week on Bulwark on Sunday, Julie K. Brown joins Bill to discuss what we know and don’t know about the Epstein case. Brown is an investigative journalist and THE preeminent expert on Jeffrey Epstein. She was almost single-handedly responsible for the re-opening of the Jeffrey Epstein sexual abuse case with her 2018 reporting.
Check out more from Julie here.
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Fantastic interview, Bill. I didn’t care about this issue until I listened to your POV and this interview. Thank you!
Ken Starr is the devil.
Just saying this again. Bill is incoherent most of the time. He can’t be in a speaking part. He also is just like most of the poor interviewers. He talks on and on and on about his thoughts. Good interviewers (and there are almost none) do their homework ask short open ended questions and STFU!
Is this how they set the stage to exit Trump and install JD? They’ve planned all this and will use Trump up to the point they don’t need him. There will be some pretense to make the switch.
But now nothing that this administration releases can ever be trusted. Nor could anything released in the future. They’ve tainted it all too badly.
This was excellent. Kudos to Julie for excellent reporting and for reminding us that the outrage should be on behalf of the victims!
Mishandling a case of this scale, possibly due to influence, is a big deal. As she says, that is not a conspiracy theory! Also: the coroner did not think it was a suicide?!?! Buried the lead there!
Victims have named Trump
i've sort of been ignoring this story ... why?
I'm sure there's a lot of financial crimes committed by Epstein and his friends. As Julie Brown says 'follow the money.....I believe Trump knew Epstein trafficked young girls and he thought it was okay. What Trump doesn't want the public to know is how many rich and powerful men knew about the sex trafficking of young women & did not report his criminality to the police. Many of these men did not engage in sex with young girls but they are complicit by remaining silent.
At best
Really fine interview. What the handling of the case by the Trump puppets shows is that in the end they don't give a damn about the truth, about people who have been hurt and about holding those who do harm accountable. It fits with their over all cynicism about their MAGA supporters who they see as suckers who give them votes and money but should get nothing in return (PT Barnum's " a sucker is born every minute"). Fits right in with the new Republican budget that screws everyone in sight except the billionaire donors. 'There is a list. there is no list. Case closed.' Just believe everything we say and don't worry your heads about the inconsistencies.
Appreciate this interview. Specifics about the Trump-Epstein relationship will come to light, eventually. With any luck, MAGA chokes on the revelations. But here we are also with the likelihood that the predatory preferences of men across business, politics, and entertainment also come to light. Despicable. Hopefully, this makes a difference. But will it? I am seeing little concern for the girls, young girls, apparently hundreds. What has happened to them? Did they suddenly heal? Did they vanish? Quite a bit of personal, unrecoverable damage was done here. Virginia (Roberts) Giuffre (of Prince Andrew fame) killed herself this year. Maybe the pushback for Dems is to advocate for the victims (even though heroes among them are on the flight logs to Pedo Island). Thanks, Bill. Kudos Julie Brown.
Excellent interview! As Bill Kristol's summarizes, Julie Brown deserves amazing credit for the work she did on this case. I'm definitely going to read her book. The odd thing is, and sad thing too because there were so many victims, is that until this latest uproar, most people had probably forgotten all about Epstein. I know I did. I did not know, as Julie Brown points out, that many victims committed suicide. Sexual exploitation and violence against women is so misunderstood and diminished by our legal system (and all legal systems). In Epstein's case, the "women" were often children. A true gut punch if ever there was one. I'm always struck by how inadequate the English language is when discussing this topic.
I like this conversation and Julie Brown is clearly an expert on the Epstein case. Many good points have. been made. But, for the Bulwark and Bill Kristal, he is doing a lot of hypothesizing with Julie Brown. Is this the right approach? When you hypothesize like this - does this give new air to the conspiracists? We know Trump is not going to fire Bondi. We also know he should fire her. We know also that Patel and Bongino should take a nose dive. They won't. I like that Julie Brown continues to bring our attention to the injustice the victims have gone through. At the end they are focusing on the victims and the grotesque injustice they have experienced.
MAGA is overblowing their narrative of why the handling of the events were so conspiratorially corrupt, while missing the point that their revered cult leader is crotch deep in it.
So now all the angry Chihuahuas are chasing the train. Let's hope they catch it.
So, if there's something there, why did Biden's DOJ not act on it?
Yeah, this is why the right answer is probably "there's nothing there". Plus, you'd think one of the many people involved in the case would start leaking details if there was some grand cover-up. I'm amused by MAGA going insane over all this, but the simplest answer is probably the right one - there was no client list.
I made a similar point a few days ago. None of it adds up.
Maybe they had their hands full with the J6 insurrectionists....you think?
Most likely there are several important Republicans AND Democrats in the files/on the list, and no one in power wants the files/list to become public.
Thus bipartisanship in its truest I'LL COVER YOUR ASS, YOU COVER MINE form.
Pretty astonishing that Julie K Brown expresses significant skepticism that Epstein committed suicide.
So basically, the case was so toxic that neither the victims, the persecutors, nor the investigators dared to keep going.
That makes a sickening amount of sense.
Real monsters do exist.
Maybe the ghost of this one will finally eat Godzilla.
Thank you, Julie K Brown, for all that you’ve done to keep this terrible case in the public eye; thank you The Bulwark for putting into the spotlight a story that much of the so-called main-stream media seems to be ignoring? Or maybe I look at the wrong media? Too many unanswered questions. It’s bigger than just this case, to allow an attorney general to think it’s ok to bury something symptomatic of so much more.
I cannot possibly express my appreciation for the hard and smart work you have done. You have made incredible sacrifices to bring us the truth. TRUTH.
I listened to this interview with Michael Wolff yesterday. Trump won't be happening that the photos mentioned here that were discussed- https://open.substack.com/pub/michaelpopok/p/author-drops-bombshell-on-trump-secret?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=gfzoo
Can’t open this sadly, for not having a subscription. I’ll see if I can find it somewhere else.
You made a comment so you should be able to open. I just watched the "taped" version. Look on YouTube. It's a good watch. About 35 minutes.
I don't have a paid subscription. Search for Legal AF and once you've got the Substack profile, check their video. It should be near the top of the list.
Thanks so much, Sandra, I’ll check it out.
If you don't find it, let me know and I'll find it.
Bill, I want to thank you both for mentioning the victims in all this. They seem to get forgotten amongst all the political machinations and that is another side of the sex trafficking tragedy.
Bill, Thanks for having Julie on the show. The perfect guest for this moment. Julie knows more than most everybody you mentioned in the pod. It was noteworthy that it is MAGA AND the Patel's, Bongino's and Bondi's that resurrected this case. You are right to say , basically, somethings rotten in Denmark. You alluded to the ways they could have diffused this that people would buy. You asked why didn't they? Two reasons, I think, the first is it's plainly obvious we are not dealing with deep thinkers here , and second, they truly believe they can lie with impunity. Look, they have been playing people for saps for ten years. It never occurred to them that some people might eventually catch on. On another point, Trump can't fire anybody now and certainly not on this. What would be his reason? Everybody knows he's telling these morons precisely what to do. If he did it would highlight the complete incompetence of him and his loyalists. I believe Julie is correct to say that there is something definitely being hidden on this whole affair. Yes, Congress might make a few token gestures but Republicans will shut that down in a heartbeat. There are some wealthy white guys, including Trump, who are not sleeping as well as they did a couple weeks ago. Stay tuned...I don't think we are done with this.
Oh no...I never considered that Pammie THOUGHT she WAS releasing new information on Epstein in those binders...! Omg...These people...!
If it’s true, it’s not conspiracy. Epstein trafficked girls and young women and ruined their lives. I personally don’t care how he died. His death means nothing. What matters now is bringing closure to those who are still alive (the victims) by prosecuting those men and women who assisted Epstein. Trumps DOJ will obviously not accomplish this.
His death would surely mean something if someone else was responsible for it? Do we just ignore all the questions that it raises? Surely that’s exactly what the administration wants, isn’t it? I care how he died. If it is indeed suicide, answer the questions honestly and we’ll know once and for all. Covering up something makes it look as if there’s something to cover up, and if the something could possibly be criminal, well, how does one not care??
I am always guilty of a bit of hyperbole. From my perspective, it’s not the important question. Yes, I guess, if he were murdered to keep him quiet, that is bad and this should be investigated and the killers brought to justice. But, again, the Trump DOJ is not going to do the right thing. Murder is not acceptable. But again, do I care that HE was murdered or killed himself? No. I don’t.
It’s a fine line, Sarcastic Prophet! I suppose I’d rather he were alive to be forced to answer questions. You are right, of course, that this DOJ will never do the right thing, but what an indictment of the DOJ; murder is, as you rightly say, not acceptable yet they might be accepting it, or at very least showing no interest whatsoever in investigating it. That’s the bit that I care about.
I appreciate the fine line. It WOULD be better if he were alive to answer questions. He would be useful that way. But with regard to the absolute incompetence and absurdity of this administration and their inability to understand or make sense of the simplest priorities, I quote my favorite line from Gone With the Wind. Scarlett comments on her former house slave Mammy’s very low opinion of her and Rhett now that they have not only survived the civil war but made gobs of money. (I apologize if this movie is not in your repertoire, you can find the clip online as it works better in her voice, but considering this administration is full of stupid white supremicists missing the Old South, it seems appropriate). “Yes, she said we could give ourselves airs and get ourselves all slicked up like racehorses but we were just mules in horse harness and we didn’t fool anybody.” They are just mules in horse harness. I expect nothing better from any of them.
Does anyone have a repertoire that doesn’t include “Gone With the Wind”???!!! Good quote. Thank you.
100% agree with Julie K Brown this is not a conspiracy theory this actually happened a forensic pathologist said they were bones broken in his neck that we’re not consistent with a hanging. We’re missing a minute of the camera and G Maxwell is doing 20 years and she was working for Epstein. There’s something here.
Perhaps they decided to shut it all down because of the Musk tweet. I believe that F47 wanted to show off all his power to Musk and now it backfired on him. Also these victims deserve justice, so I hope that it will get more attention and investigation for the victims.
Well, the Dear Leader opened one hell of a can of worms if his only intention was to show off power to Elon Musk. Backfired? Yup.
Great presentation: Lots of good open questions without going down a conspiracy rabbit hole. I think there’s a chance this has legs: be patient. Remember it took a year for Watergate to unravel. As I write this later in the afternoon Trump has already stirred the pot by claiming the “files” are a fake created by Obama, Clinton and Biden. T
Yes, good to remember the time it took Watergate to unravel; but that was in an era when Katherine Graham and Ben Bradlee were owner/chief at the Washington Post. Somehow I don’t see Jeff Bezos coming remotely close to having the gravitas, honesty and what would be needed now - courage - to pursue this. There were times in Watergate when it could fairly easily have sunk without trace without the dedication of the whole Post team.
My only comment is a couple times Bill mentions it might be difficult to prove elements of what happened but specifically knowledge of the girls’ ages…in most jurisdictions this is a statutory crime and mistake of age is not a defense.
Trump believes everything he does is not only OK, but is “perfect”. My guess is that when the files were actually audited for release it was obvious that Trumps participation looked a lot worse than he claimed and they had to scramble.
I thought MAGA was overblowing this and it was a conspiracy theory. While it may be, after listening to this podcast and yesterday’s with you and Sarah, I think this must be looked into if for no other reason than to give credence to the victims. We must support the victims who were children at the time. I don’t have a way to get this out into the MAGA world but I highly recommend they listen to this podcast because they maybe on to something. And I hope they continue to ask for the files.
Thank you for providing more information and thank you to your guest for continuing to keep this out in the media world.
Bill - there was a black book. The Smoking Gun posted the original files years ago (2015 and earlier) - here's just one link to it. The files are still accessible. https://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/jeffrey-epstein-massage-black-book-789653
Thanks Bill! Enjoyed today’s show ;)
This story doesn't have any legs because everyone knows Trump would never engage in this type of behavior, abusing women, especially vulnerable women. He cherishes the women you all
He’s our protector, whether we like it or not
Well obviously Trump would have said when he was running that he was going to release the Epstein files because it would make you think he had nothing to hide.
No mention of Trump claiming the Epstein files were generated by democrats to make him look bad? To me that’s the big story. He is telling on himself. Even MAGA-world doesn’t seem to buy it (although they insist he was the best choice for president and would absolutely vote for him again). They don’t care about the victims. They only care because they think democrats are on the list, so Trump telling them democrats fabricated it is not going to fly.
I don’t understand why Julie says there is no evidence of Trump trafficking girls. Maybe not trafficking, but Katie Johnson’s testimony that Trump was a client who raped her is quite credible. I understand that since the case was dismissed* she can’t say that he definitively did it, but her testimony is still evidence. I know as a journalist she is very careful about her words and what she says, but why is it forbidden to even mention Katie Johnson’s existence? If you can speculate that Trump is covering up for powerful people, why can’t you speculate that he himself is one of them?
*over a technicality and then never refiled because she was being harassed and threatened over it.
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4154484/katie-johnson-v-donald-j-trump/
This was eye opening. Great interview with Julie Brown and so important to bring up the victims several times. Heartbreaking!
It's interesting to compare the difference between what happened to Prince Andrew as a result of this scandal, a member of the British monarchy--famous for cover-ups; and our own president, who not only never had to answer for his involvement with this creep, but won the presidency a second time. The "land of the free" (LOL)!
I wonder if t’s crypto scheme was a way for people in the investigation to pay off for burying all the evidence.
https://substack.com/@deanblundell/note/c-134847753?r=eit6y&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Interestingly, Trump said that the files are a hoax, that they exist by were created by *Democrats", presumably part of the deep state funded by Soros.
Thanks for an excellent interview, and thanks to Julie Brown for her dogged pursuit and resulting expertise. I am saddened for those young women, survivors of that ring. When will they see justice done? And I'm disgusted at the hypocrisy of Trump supporters who claim to care so much about children. Apparently, only unless and until a prosection might implicate dear leader.
The MAGA fixation on the Epstein affair is its relationship to the Deep State (TM). The suppression of the files is perceived as the protection of a nefarious network of powerful people able to operate with impunity and exemplary of their ability to impose their will on a complaisant and corrupt system. This belief is a feature of the MAGA brand. The inattention on the part of the Democrats and the mainstream media exposes its partisan appeal. His election was intended to deputize Trump to expose and dismantle the Deep State (TM). Instead of vindication and retribution, betrayal.
The Epstein affair is a poor vehicle for this project given Trump's involvement. He probably hopes that in time interest will flag. Inasmuch as posting on the Internet, as opposed to street protests, is neither time nor energy intensive, fatigue is unlikely to end MAGA's commitment to this promise. Trump is saddled with expectations that his voters care about and revelation may well be disillusioning in practice. After all his depredations, for Trump to lose some support based on this issue would be perversely ironic.
Is it possible that all the evidence is now destroyed, so it's true that there's no there there now?
So good we have some truly conscientious reporters like Julie Brown.
There must be a lot of rich people in those files, maybe with friends in both political parties. Also, Trump, Bondi, and Patel are even stupider than I thought, given how this issue is being handled.
Thanks for this, Bill. There were two things which struck me: 1) Julie said something about Ken Starr being Epstein's attorney. I just looked it up and found that he was key to getting Epstein mostly off the hook. So the same guy who was outraged over a consensual relationship when it came to Clinton was fine w/ the horrors Epstein inflicted on hundreds of girls and young women, and the millions he made in the process. Once again, Republican hypocrisy at its finest.
2) What did Julie mean when she said, "And the fact that they released this prison video, which is a joke, quite frankly, because it's not even of his cell, it's not even of his wing, just makes me think, why are they doing something like this?" So wish Bill had questioned her on this. I've not heard of anyone else saying anything like that.
Totally - the "not his cell, not his wing" really had me intrigued and I was disappointed it wasn't delved into more with Bill. Have found the Jim Acosta interview now, thanks to other comments.
When I heard Ken Starr’s name it got me thinking about the hypocrisy. Incredible.
Jim Acosta interviewed her last night and she talked about it more with him. You can find it on his substack.
Thanks for the tip - I just watched Acosta’s interview and, yes, lots more information there. I think that being interviewed over and over again made it harder for Brown to focus on the meaty info and her own indignation over the latest developments—not Bill’s fault, just an accident of timing. I appreciate all the attention to this, though, because, like Bill, I’d dismissed all this Epstein stuff as crazy-town, and it’s clearly not. Thanks to Trump and Bondi for highlighting this! Lol.
Thank you so much! Why is THAT aspect of it not being talked about relentlessly; seems to me that if people have gone nuts over a missing minute, they'd surely go nuts over those details. Can't believe Julie would be the only one to be aware..
Excellent discussion, BTW; Jim is great and Julie seemed more engaged w/ him than w/ Bill. Maybe she's not a morning person, and was not yet on her game w/ Bill!
Wonder who Tim'll have on the pod tomorrow, and if it'll be about all this?
Irony of ironies!
I'd bet that Starr would use the "sacred oath" of fellow sleasebag lawyers getting paid big-$$$$ ---"Everyone is entitled to legal counsel."
Thank you for highlighting this. I enjoy the Bulwark, but this story convinced me to become a subscriber despite my own tight finances. I've been feeling so frustrated that much of the media presents a choice between kooky-MAGA-conspiracy-camp or reasonable-pro-democracy-folks. So, kudos to Bill Kristol for bringing forward the truth under the Trump distraction machine. I don't care about the sensationalism but do feel it is wrong that so many young and vulnerable women have received little justice and recognition. I have followed Julie Brown's reporting since she first brought attention to the Florida case. With everything happening the victims here can get lost, but they weren't trafficking themselves to themselves. There are names already out there from the plane manifests and, no doubt, very well known men of both parties are involved. This shouldn't be politically divisive but rather unifying as a humanitarian issue. The majority of Americans are not missing the real issues here; they want their daughters, sisters, mothers, friends, and partners to be safe, respected and free, regardless of political affiliation.
Everyone
https://substack.com/@meidastouch/note/c-134690681?r=eit6y&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Lots of interesting clips there
Pretty amazing
Great meme post running around on this.
"If the Epstein files cleared Trump, he'd be selling them on Truth Social!"
Has anybody thought that Jeffrey Epstein may still be alive? Since all this talk about the staging of his suicide in a different area other then his cell ??
Yes, he's staying at the DB Cooper Memorial Cabin in Idaho along with Elvis and Hitler
You heard that too?
We both must have been on that secure “Signal” Chat Call
Way to start another conspiracy theory! 😉🤦♂️🤣😂
Opp’s
I think there's a lot of damn evidence out there to look into now!
This was fascinating -and very disturbing.
What if some of Trump's associates and donors are in the files? That just gives him more leverage to extort extra gifts, bribes and favors by threatening them to make the files public. In that case, the files will never published as long as he can make a profit by keeping it secret even if he is not specifically implicated. (Which is doubtful).
This is Trump world. The surviving victims have to live with this for the rest of their lives - the perpetrators will never pay. Except to Trump for protection from exposure.
According to Tara Palmeri, another journalist that has done tons of investigative research into Epstein, the DoJ is in the middle of a lot of investigations into whether the "Johns" can be charged with sex with minors. She claims that Virginia Giuffre and other victims were required to go in and identify their bodies in the many pictures and videos that are contained in the files.
I've always believed this situation gave Dumpty plenty of blackmail fodder....leverage....but did anyone else catch Julie's comment regarding how much he actually "helped" investigators build the case against Epstein? Maybe that's why there were no charges filed against him. Guess that'll put an end to a long-term friendship.
I love Julie. Finally someone who has been in the trenches, at the trial telling us again and again the details. And finally also mentioning the real victims of this evil, RIP Virginia. I need to rewatch the documentary on this to remember all the details of the investigator (I thought he died also or something fishy….). Thanks for this timely interview Bill and the Bulwark!!
Amazing talk, Bill .. all I can say is: What List? https://bsky.app/profile/opsan.bsky.social/post/3ltu2et2agk2n
.. I wish it were funny.
Were none of the women credible who alleged to have been underage victims of Dumpty?
Yes, real journalism!
Thank you Bill - appreciate your timely interview with Julie Brown. Julie deserves a lot of credit for doggedly investigating the original story.
My comment is really a question: did trump think that using the Epstein investigation would not come back to bite him or does the malignant narcissism allow him to think he could handle any fallout—just like most of his previous depraved behavior.
Trump's psychopathy make him incapable of planning ahead. But he has always had supreme confidence in his ability to improvise.
MAGA and Fox and all their storylines like, Biden Crime Family or The Durham Report. Its a journey not a destination. It is a mass entertainment/brand/lifestyle cult as much as any kind of conventional politics or ideology you and I might recognize
Precisely, there is no real information just the party storyline, it's like Fox and GOP has their own public facing version of the "weave" It's utter nonsense what they say. It's obvious to everyone outside their bubble and probably in their bubble also. Make it up as you go along.
The problem is that Dems haven't learned from years of this unified storyline the Republicans always use. They literally all get the message and repeat the messaging. This is a fact that it is one of their methods to combat any opposition - even from the stray Republican.
We need to be more relentless. Oh yeah, we also need to get rid of old leadership to successfully move forward and counter their storyline. This is coming from someone who's beard is mostly grey now!
the weave...bingo, and everyone lived happily ever after
The "Biden Crime Family" only exists because of the "Trump Crime Family". Like all human beings, Trump believes everyone operates just like he does.
On to the next distraction!
Julie is the best. Great interview and so informative