Tell you what: the left should own up to planting the idea that trans people deserve human rights. And right wing culture should own that it likely trained and equipped him to murder people. Because guns are just not a common leftist hobby.
I’m open to believing the texts are real. But every agency that touches the Trump admin has lost the presumption of regularity. So forgive me for not immediately swallowing whole the extremely convenient evidence that has somehow become public before trial.
I think that because Robinson's life and politics were so complicated, we may never know his true motivation(s) for killing Kirk. If it doesn't favor maga, the truth will either be obfuscated or allowed to fizzle.
The Australian reporter should have then asked if agent orange's skin was so thin that he would take offense at a question that he didn't want to answer.
And regarding Vance's religious rhetoric, I believe that his wife, Usha, is a Hindu or at least was raised in a Hindu family. I wonder what she feels about his bloviating. How that woman can stand sharing a house with him and allowing him to influence her children is beyond me.
I just signed up for the Bulwark, and this is very purposely my first post. I generally don't believe in conspiracy theories, I'm probably too skeptical, I have dismissed conspiracy theories in the past that ended up true.
Authors mentioned the texts - have we seen any verification that these are real? I have two sons, 27 and 22, and that complete thread sounds nothing like a 22 year old man. There is so much these messages reveal, it's written like a complete confession that seems tailor-made for right wing agitators. Why are we certain these are authentic?
I have no insight on his true motivations, but I have seen nothing that confirms that he was influenced by the right or the left. In an ideal world, we shouldn't be looking to label him to place blame on one side or another since such violence is wrong. Still, based on what I've seen, I am not ready to conced that Tyler was a gay man in a relationship with his roommate who was transitioning.
Does that make me an ostrich? Or maybe the point is I should ignore my suspicions because it doesn't matter?
There is a lot about this case that isn’t adding up to me. Based on what the FBI has said, it seems less and less plausible that the current narrative is correct. I’m going to post some points that people can look into and see what they think.
Problem #1: Where was the gun? In the pictures released, I don’t see where a Mauser 30.06 would be. Even with the gun broken down, that’s a long barrel.
Problem #2: In the videos of Tyler Robinson running across the roof, dropping off the building, and running a bit then walking away, where is the gun?
Problem #3: The FBI claimed he had the gun disassembled and in his backpack, reassembled it on the roof, disassembled it again, then reassembled it before it was found. I do not see how that makes sense. Even if you grant that the gun could somehow be hidden among his outfit and backpack (which seems unlikely given the size) why would he stop and reassemble it to leave it in the woods?
Problem #4: The FBI announced the shooter left the screwdriver used on the roof. And that the DNA from the screwdriver matches the towel. If the screwdriver was left behind, how was the gun reassembled?
Problem #5: There was a camera set up behind Charlie. Where is that footage?
Problem #6: Look up what a 30.06 round does to the human body. Does that match what we saw? This is a rifle and round designed to take down large game. Not to be ghoulish, but the graphic video I assume most have seen does not fit a 30.06 hitting someone in soft tissue.
Problem #7: Where is the autopsy report to confirm ballistics and trajectory?
I’m not offering any theories here, because we don’t know. But the things that have been released by the authorities do not make sense. The current official story requires a LOT of assumptions to be held as true in order for the narrative to make sense.
There are many people, including prominent attorneys, coming out and saying that they don't buy the whole text message BS. So let's not just call out JoJo from Jerz and Brooklyn Defiant Dad. Stop the leftist shit too. There really are no organized leftist groups, including Antifa. Have we all forgotten that he was turned in by his own family and that they get $100k reward? They'll say anything at this point. This is all a manufactured story about this kid that even the FBI can't keep their story straight about what they want the end result to be. Why else would 3 FBI agents with 90 years combined experience be fired? What does that mean? There are no longer any competent people in the FBI to investigate what really happened. There are so many theories out there and no one knows what his intent really was. No one is saying that someone on the left couldn't do this but the truth is, there are far more violent right leaning groups.
If we are going to stereotype the term "left", I would offer that being anti-gun is often attributed to the left-leaning folks. Clearly, people are a bit more complex than being placed in, or defined by a certain category, like right or left.
Cathy Young needs to be politely corrected on one point- the language of begotten not made is from the Nicene Creed not the Apostles Creed. It is important to remember that United States history, in its language and talk, is brimful of religious language in the Judeo-Christian faith tradition and thought. This language shows up in our public documents of founding including ‘God-given’ rights and cultural language imbued with the shared imagery of Exodus that put a fire to abolitionists and 150 years of civil rights, and the language of The Beatitudes that underscore all social justice and liberation theologies and the last 100 years of federal safety nets. The present day small c christian nationalists come out of the KKK tradition which has nothing to do with Abrahamic faith traditions and values and is rather founded on the very divisive tribal beliefs that the gospel preaches against. I am heartened that Andrew makes reference to the PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute) 2023 survey led by sociologist DrRobert Jones. The whole survey is intense and insightful and a must read for any journalist, any person really trying to understand the facts of American religious thought and language.
Leeja Miller had a very good take on the left/right debate, and the clearest explanation of the memes written on the bullet casings that I have seen to date:
and a video on Trump's & Bondi's threat to use RICO against anyone speaking up against Trump, or any prominent MAGAs. Leeja explains how it could give the admin the ability go after podcasters, bloggers, social media posters, or protesters (or groups organizing protests) that say anything Trump doesn't like:
Part of the RICO laws, indeed the very. base of them, is that there must be an actual crime committed, something on the order of arson, murder, fraud, or something similar. If nothing illegal actually happens, then RICO doesn't apply. Calling people names is not a crime. Quoting them is not a crime. Pointing out their failures is not a crime. Hurting their fragile feelings is not a crime.
Conservative media has been conflating this event with transgenderism since the beginning, They have a real need to demonize transgender people even more than the LGB's in LGBT. So until I know WHO this hypothetical significant other is, I'll treat it just like "he has a transgender dorm mate!!!" which fell flat when everyone on campus who was in a position to know the dorm mate were completely like "WTF? He's not transgender!"
So now it's anonymous texts with a transgender boyfriend. Pull the other one.
Now maybe this story is true. I know that. But to believe anything from a right wing source without hard evidence to back it up is a fool's game.
Eggers essay falls somewhat into the same trap as laid by the Trump administration and all those who are simply asserting that this kid is left wing. I think people really do not understand that outside of Washington, DC and those who are politically attuned just how complicated many people are when it comes to political beliefs.
Furthermore, geography plays a role in how we define left versus right. The argument out there that the shooter is a man of the left because his mom says that he has started to shift his politics over the past year is an example of this phenomenon. The shooter's family, living where it does in southern Utah and being repoted as very-MAGA supporting in its orientation does not capture how far right the average citizen is in southwestern Utah. It would not be hard to see a situation where the shooter had moved left of his parents on a few issues but remained very right wing. In fact, I see that as the most likely scenario.
I think there is so much that is not known at this point that nearly all writers, both those who are sincere and well meaning and those who are not are still trying to construct a narrative that is in a fact grossly incomplete and trying to force this young man's round peg into a square hole.
I said it the night CK was killed, and my opinion hasn't changed: I don't believe anything the T regime says about this crime (or much of anything else for that matter).
Also, I don't understand - as others have commented - why Andrew characterizes the killer as being on our side. IF officials are telling the truth, and if the killer is/was indeed involved with someone who's transitioning, then why isn't the single fact that the Right has basically put a target on the back of every trans person in this country enough of a motive?
If this regime suddenly targeted cats, and you committed some act of violence out of rage over what they were doing to cats, would that make you a Leftist? Is anyone who does anything in opposition to this regime now a Leftist?
"Instead, we should recognize that we have a particular duty to denounce violence when it originates on our own side, whatever side we are on."
I have found it interesting that many of those on the left who lambasted Gov Cox for expressing that he was hoping the killer was "not one of us", are now doing the same thing -- "the killer couldn't possibly be one of us". or if he is, his actions were justified. Much as was done, mostly by the left, in the deification of Luigi Mangione.
Left out of much of the reporting was Cox's statement also included "just because I thought it would make it easier on us, if we could just say, 'Hey, we don't do that here.' But it did happen here, and it was one of us.", and making a statement denouncing all political violence.
(which then led to a call from Trump warning Cox not to veer off of the MAGA-script).
In the end, does it matter whether Robinson was "left" or "right"? This does not help to identify and understand the real problems in our culture that are leading to the rise in political violence and number of disaffected young men.
I think that is an idealistic take. Yes, political violence is wrong, but MAGA is saying I am responsible for this. You can argue that I shouldn't care what they say, but I am entitled to know the facts so I can have an intelligent discussion with someone wants to call me out for my beliefs.
While I largely agree with Mr. Egger's caution about defensiveness or conspiratorial thinking in assessing Mr. Kirk's murderer's motivations, I also think we cannot conclude that he was won over to some "leftist" agenda that prompted him to kill. The issue that seemed to drive him - and perhaps the only one- was his aversion to Kirk's virulent anti-trans views. While more evidence may convince me otherwise, I'm not yet ready to label him "one of us."
Tell you what: the left should own up to planting the idea that trans people deserve human rights. And right wing culture should own that it likely trained and equipped him to murder people. Because guns are just not a common leftist hobby.
I’m open to believing the texts are real. But every agency that touches the Trump admin has lost the presumption of regularity. So forgive me for not immediately swallowing whole the extremely convenient evidence that has somehow become public before trial.
I think that because Robinson's life and politics were so complicated, we may never know his true motivation(s) for killing Kirk. If it doesn't favor maga, the truth will either be obfuscated or allowed to fizzle.
The Australian reporter should have then asked if agent orange's skin was so thin that he would take offense at a question that he didn't want to answer.
And regarding Vance's religious rhetoric, I believe that his wife, Usha, is a Hindu or at least was raised in a Hindu family. I wonder what she feels about his bloviating. How that woman can stand sharing a house with him and allowing him to influence her children is beyond me.
I just signed up for the Bulwark, and this is very purposely my first post. I generally don't believe in conspiracy theories, I'm probably too skeptical, I have dismissed conspiracy theories in the past that ended up true.
Authors mentioned the texts - have we seen any verification that these are real? I have two sons, 27 and 22, and that complete thread sounds nothing like a 22 year old man. There is so much these messages reveal, it's written like a complete confession that seems tailor-made for right wing agitators. Why are we certain these are authentic?
I have no insight on his true motivations, but I have seen nothing that confirms that he was influenced by the right or the left. In an ideal world, we shouldn't be looking to label him to place blame on one side or another since such violence is wrong. Still, based on what I've seen, I am not ready to conced that Tyler was a gay man in a relationship with his roommate who was transitioning.
Does that make me an ostrich? Or maybe the point is I should ignore my suspicions because it doesn't matter?
There is a lot about this case that isn’t adding up to me. Based on what the FBI has said, it seems less and less plausible that the current narrative is correct. I’m going to post some points that people can look into and see what they think.
Problem #1: Where was the gun? In the pictures released, I don’t see where a Mauser 30.06 would be. Even with the gun broken down, that’s a long barrel.
Problem #2: In the videos of Tyler Robinson running across the roof, dropping off the building, and running a bit then walking away, where is the gun?
Problem #3: The FBI claimed he had the gun disassembled and in his backpack, reassembled it on the roof, disassembled it again, then reassembled it before it was found. I do not see how that makes sense. Even if you grant that the gun could somehow be hidden among his outfit and backpack (which seems unlikely given the size) why would he stop and reassemble it to leave it in the woods?
Problem #4: The FBI announced the shooter left the screwdriver used on the roof. And that the DNA from the screwdriver matches the towel. If the screwdriver was left behind, how was the gun reassembled?
Problem #5: There was a camera set up behind Charlie. Where is that footage?
Problem #6: Look up what a 30.06 round does to the human body. Does that match what we saw? This is a rifle and round designed to take down large game. Not to be ghoulish, but the graphic video I assume most have seen does not fit a 30.06 hitting someone in soft tissue.
Problem #7: Where is the autopsy report to confirm ballistics and trajectory?
I’m not offering any theories here, because we don’t know. But the things that have been released by the authorities do not make sense. The current official story requires a LOT of assumptions to be held as true in order for the narrative to make sense.
It sure seems to me that the info released is tailor-made to fit their narrative to the fullest extent they think they can get people to buy.
I'm guessing the autopsy report is buried with the medical report of the president's grazed ear...
you bring up interesting points. I do not know enough about guns to agree or disagree.
Sorry, Mr. Egger, but, simply, no.
There are many people, including prominent attorneys, coming out and saying that they don't buy the whole text message BS. So let's not just call out JoJo from Jerz and Brooklyn Defiant Dad. Stop the leftist shit too. There really are no organized leftist groups, including Antifa. Have we all forgotten that he was turned in by his own family and that they get $100k reward? They'll say anything at this point. This is all a manufactured story about this kid that even the FBI can't keep their story straight about what they want the end result to be. Why else would 3 FBI agents with 90 years combined experience be fired? What does that mean? There are no longer any competent people in the FBI to investigate what really happened. There are so many theories out there and no one knows what his intent really was. No one is saying that someone on the left couldn't do this but the truth is, there are far more violent right leaning groups.
If we are going to stereotype the term "left", I would offer that being anti-gun is often attributed to the left-leaning folks. Clearly, people are a bit more complex than being placed in, or defined by a certain category, like right or left.
Cathy Young needs to be politely corrected on one point- the language of begotten not made is from the Nicene Creed not the Apostles Creed. It is important to remember that United States history, in its language and talk, is brimful of religious language in the Judeo-Christian faith tradition and thought. This language shows up in our public documents of founding including ‘God-given’ rights and cultural language imbued with the shared imagery of Exodus that put a fire to abolitionists and 150 years of civil rights, and the language of The Beatitudes that underscore all social justice and liberation theologies and the last 100 years of federal safety nets. The present day small c christian nationalists come out of the KKK tradition which has nothing to do with Abrahamic faith traditions and values and is rather founded on the very divisive tribal beliefs that the gospel preaches against. I am heartened that Andrew makes reference to the PRRI (Public Religion Research Institute) 2023 survey led by sociologist DrRobert Jones. The whole survey is intense and insightful and a must read for any journalist, any person really trying to understand the facts of American religious thought and language.
Leeja Miller had a very good take on the left/right debate, and the clearest explanation of the memes written on the bullet casings that I have seen to date:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzJXnqvPMsU&list=TLPQMTcwOTIwMjUvdt3F8_04OA&index=6
and a video on Trump's & Bondi's threat to use RICO against anyone speaking up against Trump, or any prominent MAGAs. Leeja explains how it could give the admin the ability go after podcasters, bloggers, social media posters, or protesters (or groups organizing protests) that say anything Trump doesn't like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emM-5NpK2UM&list=TLPQMTcwOTIwMjUvdt3F8_04OA&index=7
Part of the RICO laws, indeed the very. base of them, is that there must be an actual crime committed, something on the order of arson, murder, fraud, or something similar. If nothing illegal actually happens, then RICO doesn't apply. Calling people names is not a crime. Quoting them is not a crime. Pointing out their failures is not a crime. Hurting their fragile feelings is not a crime.
Personally I don't buy the text messages.
Conservative media has been conflating this event with transgenderism since the beginning, They have a real need to demonize transgender people even more than the LGB's in LGBT. So until I know WHO this hypothetical significant other is, I'll treat it just like "he has a transgender dorm mate!!!" which fell flat when everyone on campus who was in a position to know the dorm mate were completely like "WTF? He's not transgender!"
So now it's anonymous texts with a transgender boyfriend. Pull the other one.
Now maybe this story is true. I know that. But to believe anything from a right wing source without hard evidence to back it up is a fool's game.
C'mon people, I shouldn't have to tell you that.
Eggers essay falls somewhat into the same trap as laid by the Trump administration and all those who are simply asserting that this kid is left wing. I think people really do not understand that outside of Washington, DC and those who are politically attuned just how complicated many people are when it comes to political beliefs.
Furthermore, geography plays a role in how we define left versus right. The argument out there that the shooter is a man of the left because his mom says that he has started to shift his politics over the past year is an example of this phenomenon. The shooter's family, living where it does in southern Utah and being repoted as very-MAGA supporting in its orientation does not capture how far right the average citizen is in southwestern Utah. It would not be hard to see a situation where the shooter had moved left of his parents on a few issues but remained very right wing. In fact, I see that as the most likely scenario.
I think there is so much that is not known at this point that nearly all writers, both those who are sincere and well meaning and those who are not are still trying to construct a narrative that is in a fact grossly incomplete and trying to force this young man's round peg into a square hole.
I said it the night CK was killed, and my opinion hasn't changed: I don't believe anything the T regime says about this crime (or much of anything else for that matter).
Also, I don't understand - as others have commented - why Andrew characterizes the killer as being on our side. IF officials are telling the truth, and if the killer is/was indeed involved with someone who's transitioning, then why isn't the single fact that the Right has basically put a target on the back of every trans person in this country enough of a motive?
If this regime suddenly targeted cats, and you committed some act of violence out of rage over what they were doing to cats, would that make you a Leftist? Is anyone who does anything in opposition to this regime now a Leftist?
RE: Against The Ostriches
"Instead, we should recognize that we have a particular duty to denounce violence when it originates on our own side, whatever side we are on."
I have found it interesting that many of those on the left who lambasted Gov Cox for expressing that he was hoping the killer was "not one of us", are now doing the same thing -- "the killer couldn't possibly be one of us". or if he is, his actions were justified. Much as was done, mostly by the left, in the deification of Luigi Mangione.
Left out of much of the reporting was Cox's statement also included "just because I thought it would make it easier on us, if we could just say, 'Hey, we don't do that here.' But it did happen here, and it was one of us.", and making a statement denouncing all political violence.
(which then led to a call from Trump warning Cox not to veer off of the MAGA-script).
In the end, does it matter whether Robinson was "left" or "right"? This does not help to identify and understand the real problems in our culture that are leading to the rise in political violence and number of disaffected young men.
I think that is an idealistic take. Yes, political violence is wrong, but MAGA is saying I am responsible for this. You can argue that I shouldn't care what they say, but I am entitled to know the facts so I can have an intelligent discussion with someone wants to call me out for my beliefs.
While I largely agree with Mr. Egger's caution about defensiveness or conspiratorial thinking in assessing Mr. Kirk's murderer's motivations, I also think we cannot conclude that he was won over to some "leftist" agenda that prompted him to kill. The issue that seemed to drive him - and perhaps the only one- was his aversion to Kirk's virulent anti-trans views. While more evidence may convince me otherwise, I'm not yet ready to label him "one of us."