Jenna Ellis' court-read teary excuse for her actions essentially boils down to "I was too young, ambitious, and starry-eyed to worry my pretty little Christian head about truth."
So true. What does Christian values mean nowadays? Hate all non-whites and all non-"Christians". Lie, cheat and steal to achieve your goals. Complete disregard for Democratic values.
I always fall back on Tom Nichols' take of The Screwtape Letters: "Convincing humans to do evil in the name of the Enemy is still one of our finest maneuvers, and you will find it highly enjoyable."
Completely agree. See my previous comment in re Huckabee Sanders and McEnany. But it's also important -- and dare I say, just and fair -- to remember that there are many people of faith -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist -- who are routinely and without fanfare feeding people, helping immigrants, providing affordable or free healthcare, teaching ESL classes, visiting lonely people in nursing homes, being camp counselors for disadvantaged kids, advocating for prisoners, and working for peace. If anyone thinks they don't know any "religious" people like that, it might be because *these* religious people are not calling attention to themselves. They're too busy.
Yeah it’s what makes her look so much worse in my eyes. I lack belief but if she is such a believer, she should have been better than to do what she was doing. Don’t hide behind your claims of piety when you’re confessing your wickedness.
I have heard these hypocrites referred to as "ChristianISTS." As good a word as any to differentiate them from the many Christians who still do obey the 10 Commandments, and have no problem calling Trump "evil."
Jenna Ellis, and Mike Johnson, have no Christian values. Christianity is what you do ("Love thy neighbor"), not what you say. By their deeds ye shall know them.
Or, as "I'm sorry I got caught and didn't think I'd actually have to accept responsibility for my actions." Like the others who have flipped, it's safe to assume she is caving only because she can find no other way out of the box that she got herself into. If it were a class it would be Conservatism 101: Choices and Consequences.
Fighting off tears, she still was trying to ditch responsibility by saying “those older, wiser guys I deferred to got me into this”. Her tears were for herself having been caught. Maybe she’ll one day grow up morally. Maybe. Or, she’ll wipe the glycerin out of her eyes and rejoice that she dodged THAT bullet. Her call.
She said that if she knew then what she knows now, she wouldn't have done it. My immediate thought (after the facepalm) was the only thing she knows now and not then was the risk of getting caught.
All the more reason to consider her "excuse" as lame and essentially dishonest. I cannot believe that she was unaware of all the legal objections WITHIN the Trump administration to what she had to have known were objectively dodgey assertions publicly made by herself. Christian forgiveness is predicated on an honest confession of one's sins followed by repentance, i.e., an honest effort to change one's behavior. It is clear she has not yet met those conditions.
At 72, I suggest we consider redefining adulthood as occurring later in life and in stages. I suggest assigning 1/2 an adult voice at age 29, the 3/4 at 39 and only at 50 as full voice.
Susan Huckabee Sanders and Kayleigh McEnany both got on my last nerve in the worst way with their professions of faith and wearing their little crosses, and their rudeness (Sanders) and their constant lying (McEnany). And I'm a Christian.
I am a Catholic, so feel that many Christians don't actually count us. Still, thinking especially of the sermon on the mount, they all would benefit from meditating on the meaning of blessed are the poor in spirit.
She's reprehensible. And I'm past the point of being sick and tired of degenerates like Ellis evoking Christ to provide a veneer of respectability for their other deplorable actions.
The "Evangelicals" who support Trump will not forgive her for the lies she told. They will condemn her for abandoning those lies and betraying their Orange Messiah.
I think that the MAGAS don't care about what Trump is (a truly despicable human being). That is what happen with cults. Remember all the other evangelist cults in the past: they were rotten to the core, but they became millionaires due to their followers. Now, the thing is that they can see a possibility for a Theocracy. A Theocracy where women would lose all their rights, the same as blacks, other minorities and gays. Just because "it is in the Bible". I forgot, they would like to abolish science and great literature. Gosh, I feel as if we were going back to the Middle Ages and The Inquisition. However, there has been a lot of water under the bridge, and I hope that these forces don't succeed.
That's always struck me about the Evangelicals. What would they call a group of people who worshipped a person (an entity, a being) who promises them everything they want on Earth, who will smite their enemies in their name and who asks nothing of them but their love?
They already forgave (championed, disseminated, embellished, weaponized) the lies. Her ticket to excommunication from both MAGA and evangelical Christianity was bought when she appeared disloyal and unfaithful.
With apologies to Peter Wehner and David French, who appear to be genuinely good people, Evangelicals are horrendous and have done more damage to the Church than any atheist or liberal.
I think that more non-MAGA evangelicals need to speak up. Much like most moderates when extremists in their midst are too many, too vocal and too deleteriously active.
Doing my best, though I no longer call myself that. "Evangelical" used to refer to a set of Christian beliefs that were more moderate and scientifically informed than "Fundamentalist", but the term "Evangelical" was coopted by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson etc. since "Fundamentslist" was not, as Falwell would say, "Media savvy."
Same here. It's hard going, sometimes. Your Evangelical family and friends think you have "fallen away" and everyone else already knows what they know about Christians and Christianity, or religion generally.
Thank you. I will admit a certain level of discomfort to say Evangelical because there are many that do not subscribe to the MAGA position. But my experience has been that they can be rather passionate and a bit insular and vocal in their views. I'd say MAGA evangelicals, but I don't even know what they believe, with respect to religion. Good with dealing with the coopting of that term.
That's very true as their evangelical theology only requires that they profess their faith - no other action or knowledge is required. Their faith will excuse any immorality, sin, or crime as long as they say they are Christians. An atheist, like myself, who lives a largely moral life - faithful in marriage, responsible financially, charitable, law-abiding, etc. is inherently evil and irredeemable but a professed "Christian" can continually commit heinous crimes (Josh Dugger) and/or public immorality (Roy Moore, Ted Haggard and innumerable others) and be considered "good people." It works much like the MAGA cult, loyalty and faith is all, principle means less than nothing, and moral and courageous acts are equivalent to shitting on the altar.
I agree Cynthia: My husband and I live a moral life and are happy, free of religious dogmas. I am a scientist and prefer to know than to believe. We adhere to humanistic values. I raised my daughter with my ex-husband, her father without any religion. She is also agnostic or atheist at 42 and very successful in her career. Her coworkers love her for her humanity and empathy.
I have confidence that a Sydney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro will abide by the terms of their plea agreement: they seem to be looking out for their own best interests.
With Jenna Ellis, I'm not so sure. She plays up being a "Christian" so much that it makes me doubt her sincerity. (Having spent 20 years in the Charismatic movement, I saw how the gospel got perverted.) Christianity SHOULD be about truth, equity and justice. However, American Christianity has become more about "Facts don't matter; it's what you BELIEVE!"
As the mother of four (!) college students who are Gen Z, I have to say that the barrage of coverage by the Bulwark regarding their generation's pro Hamas position is troubling to me.
What I worry most about is that all of this coverage seems to uplift what I believe to be a minority in their generation.
Regarding the Harvard nonsense that's been covered widely in the news, I think we all understand today that Harvard is... what's the word again? Oh yes, overrated. I mean, how.many bat shit crazy attorneys have graduated from this supposed elite institution?
You see the parallels?
We cannot blanket an entire generation (or a university) with what are gross generalizations that are derived from a small number.
Oh yes, and the human brain is not fully formed until the mid twenties. Let's give these people time to experiment and learn. That's something this Gen Xer got (thank God) prior to social media and doxxing.
Exactly. There is a danger in trying to turn the exception into the rule, especially when others take that ball and run with it from their own personal passions. I got flogged in this space yesterday by someone for daring to suggest that freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Constitution, even when we find the message abhorrent, to the point that he got worked up into a lather in labeling me anti-Jewish ("you don’t like Israel and ... you think the Palestinian cause is just; that their attack on Israel was justified.") -- which, of course, I never said, much less even thought. It was a case study in a discussion going off the rails when someone can't accept truth over opinion.
For the record, I am as appalled by the pro-Hamas positions and statements as anyone else and do not subscribe to them in any way, shape, or form. But I also wonder how many respondents to a poll, young people in particular, know and understand exactly what Hamas is, what they represent, what their tactics have been over time, and how that impacts the Middle East peace process. I'd wager that, to some, Palestine = Hamas = Arafat = it's all the same. We shouldn't assume knowledge on their part just because they answer some questions. I've argued for taking these issues on a case-by-case basis and trying to engage in productive dialogue rather than going off on them with a "you're wrong, and here's why" approach. Anyone who has endured raising teenagers, and sees college kids in their natural environment, understands that one of those approaches is more likely to get them to cooperate and the other is more likely to get them to dig in their heels, fight harder, and engage more in the behavior that is objectionable. Let's all be smarter than that and use our maturity and intelligence to give guidance as the best tools in our belt.
This, exactly. My kids are 23 & 27. It’s easy to make Israel/Palestine a black & white issue, until you really study the history, and the actors (which most youth have not). Then it all gets very murky, until something like Sabra/Shatila (Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1978 & the Lebanese Falange slaughter of refugee Palestinians) or Hamas’ actions on 10/7 occurs. However wrong Israeli treatment of Palestinians may be, nothing justifies Hamas’ actions. 10/7 was the definition of a war crime, and it’s cowardly not to admit it.
I may have to buy another membership to ‘like’ this comment a second time. We send our kids off to college but don’t want them to develop new opinions (again we may all feel those opinions are wrong but that’s not the point.)
Wait...weren't we told repeatedly that the youths were the ones to listen to about BLM, the environment, etc?
Always fun to see the same people who claim the youth movement is the correct one, turn on a dime and say...No, they're wrong on this, they're just young, don't listen to them.
I don't see how it's a contradiction to say the majority polled response of young people is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. It also seems like most of the commenters here agree that we have a responsibility here to learn and teach. I don't comment much on international geopolitics because what I know about it could fit into a thimble. It doesn't take a lot of education to say "Police brutality is bad."
Jenna Ellis' court-read teary excuse for her actions essentially boils down to "I was too young, ambitious, and starry-eyed to worry my pretty little Christian head about truth."
She falls back on her Christian values in her statement, like that somehow makes her a more sympathetic figure. It makes her look worse.
Twisted belief in 'God' will be the death of us all.
So true. What does Christian values mean nowadays? Hate all non-whites and all non-"Christians". Lie, cheat and steal to achieve your goals. Complete disregard for Democratic values.
Don't they all do that, though? They're basically required to by the base.
I always fall back on Tom Nichols' take of The Screwtape Letters: "Convincing humans to do evil in the name of the Enemy is still one of our finest maneuvers, and you will find it highly enjoyable."
"Karma is only a bitch if you are."
Come to think of it, Anakin would be at home in today's GOP: resentful, arrogant, appreciates nothing, Manichean thinking, etc.
“Cloying” might be a good word.
Many of these White evangelicals need a hard slap by reality to realize Trump is the piper who led them away from the flock.
Psalm 10 gives the perfect description of Donald J. Trump. Sad!
Completely agree. See my previous comment in re Huckabee Sanders and McEnany. But it's also important -- and dare I say, just and fair -- to remember that there are many people of faith -- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist -- who are routinely and without fanfare feeding people, helping immigrants, providing affordable or free healthcare, teaching ESL classes, visiting lonely people in nursing homes, being camp counselors for disadvantaged kids, advocating for prisoners, and working for peace. If anyone thinks they don't know any "religious" people like that, it might be because *these* religious people are not calling attention to themselves. They're too busy.
Yeah it’s what makes her look so much worse in my eyes. I lack belief but if she is such a believer, she should have been better than to do what she was doing. Don’t hide behind your claims of piety when you’re confessing your wickedness.
I have heard these hypocrites referred to as "ChristianISTS." As good a word as any to differentiate them from the many Christians who still do obey the 10 Commandments, and have no problem calling Trump "evil."
Exactly. It’s nauseating and completely predictable.
Jenna Ellis, and Mike Johnson, have no Christian values. Christianity is what you do ("Love thy neighbor"), not what you say. By their deeds ye shall know them.
Yea, we’ll mark meadows was also a pretend Christian, I know as he was my supposed rep
Or, as "I'm sorry I got caught and didn't think I'd actually have to accept responsibility for my actions." Like the others who have flipped, it's safe to assume she is caving only because she can find no other way out of the box that she got herself into. If it were a class it would be Conservatism 101: Choices and Consequences.
Fighting off tears, she still was trying to ditch responsibility by saying “those older, wiser guys I deferred to got me into this”. Her tears were for herself having been caught. Maybe she’ll one day grow up morally. Maybe. Or, she’ll wipe the glycerin out of her eyes and rejoice that she dodged THAT bullet. Her call.
She said that if she knew then what she knows now, she wouldn't have done it. My immediate thought (after the facepalm) was the only thing she knows now and not then was the risk of getting caught.
Truly, "Tears from Heaven" *Eric Clapton
Maybe caving because she’s out of money and Trump threw her under the bus. But she’d sell herself again given a chance, as all the flippers would.
"I've committed a crime.I've broken the law" *Simon and Garfunkel "Wednesday morning 3 A.M."
"Was it something that somebody said? Honey you know I broke the rules". *The Band "Ophelia"
I need your Playlist!
Its quite vast.
The great orange god hasn’t faced any consequences yet!
Tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock, ...
Ellis is pushing 40. She is not young.
All the more reason to consider her "excuse" as lame and essentially dishonest. I cannot believe that she was unaware of all the legal objections WITHIN the Trump administration to what she had to have known were objectively dodgey assertions publicly made by herself. Christian forgiveness is predicated on an honest confession of one's sins followed by repentance, i.e., an honest effort to change one's behavior. It is clear she has not yet met those conditions.
Don't forget, true repentance also requires restitution. Don't see any of that. :)
I'm thinking of a phrase; a non apology, apology.
At 72, I suggest we consider redefining adulthood as occurring later in life and in stages. I suggest assigning 1/2 an adult voice at age 29, the 3/4 at 39 and only at 50 as full voice.
And Jenna Ellis is 1/4 (sorry, not to scale)
Funny how badly these professed Christians behave.
Susan Huckabee Sanders and Kayleigh McEnany both got on my last nerve in the worst way with their professions of faith and wearing their little crosses, and their rudeness (Sanders) and their constant lying (McEnany). And I'm a Christian.
I am a Catholic, so feel that many Christians don't actually count us. Still, thinking especially of the sermon on the mount, they all would benefit from meditating on the meaning of blessed are the poor in spirit.
Jenna Ellis will be 40 next year.
She's not a child, but she's old enough to know better.
What she is is a dope.
"Stupid is as stupid does" That great philosopher Forrest Gump
She's actually old enough to be the parent of an adult child. So there's that.
She's reprehensible. And I'm past the point of being sick and tired of degenerates like Ellis evoking Christ to provide a veneer of respectability for their other deplorable actions.
Say that again when you're 65. ;D
Or 71
Evangelicals love themselves a sinner. They will forgive Jenna.
The "Evangelicals" who support Trump will not forgive her for the lies she told. They will condemn her for abandoning those lies and betraying their Orange Messiah.
Snippet of an actual conversation with a "friend" who turned evangelical.
She: "I'm sorry you lost your faith in God".
Me: " I didn't lose my faith in God. I lost my faith in people who call themselves Christian and support Trump and MAGA."
I haven't heard from her in over a year.
I think that the MAGAS don't care about what Trump is (a truly despicable human being). That is what happen with cults. Remember all the other evangelist cults in the past: they were rotten to the core, but they became millionaires due to their followers. Now, the thing is that they can see a possibility for a Theocracy. A Theocracy where women would lose all their rights, the same as blacks, other minorities and gays. Just because "it is in the Bible". I forgot, they would like to abolish science and great literature. Gosh, I feel as if we were going back to the Middle Ages and The Inquisition. However, there has been a lot of water under the bridge, and I hope that these forces don't succeed.
"Father of Lies" is a nickname of a supernatural entity. I'm not sure these evangelicals are actually worshipping who they think they are.
That's always struck me about the Evangelicals. What would they call a group of people who worshipped a person (an entity, a being) who promises them everything they want on Earth, who will smite their enemies in their name and who asks nothing of them but their love?
And what might that being's name be?
Actual Christians' guy was offered this very choice. He turned down wordly power. I'm sure there's a lesson there somewhere. :)
No. It might help if you consulted the primary sources.
This!
They already forgave (championed, disseminated, embellished, weaponized) the lies. Her ticket to excommunication from both MAGA and evangelical Christianity was bought when she appeared disloyal and unfaithful.
With apologies to Peter Wehner and David French, who appear to be genuinely good people, Evangelicals are horrendous and have done more damage to the Church than any atheist or liberal.
I think that more non-MAGA evangelicals need to speak up. Much like most moderates when extremists in their midst are too many, too vocal and too deleteriously active.
Doing my best, though I no longer call myself that. "Evangelical" used to refer to a set of Christian beliefs that were more moderate and scientifically informed than "Fundamentalist", but the term "Evangelical" was coopted by Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson etc. since "Fundamentslist" was not, as Falwell would say, "Media savvy."
Same here. It's hard going, sometimes. Your Evangelical family and friends think you have "fallen away" and everyone else already knows what they know about Christians and Christianity, or religion generally.
Thank you. I will admit a certain level of discomfort to say Evangelical because there are many that do not subscribe to the MAGA position. But my experience has been that they can be rather passionate and a bit insular and vocal in their views. I'd say MAGA evangelicals, but I don't even know what they believe, with respect to religion. Good with dealing with the coopting of that term.
"Will You still love tomorrow" *Carol King
Ambition and the lack of a moral compass typically leads to where Ellis has landed.
These are the sort of people drawn to Trump: mediocrities with more ambition than talent, self-awareness, or integrity.
Or intelligence, or common sense.
Exactly.
Too bad it doesn't land her in Ellis island.
Right. Apparently that whole "Christian" thing, in her minds, does not require actually knowing what Christ stood for.
That's very true as their evangelical theology only requires that they profess their faith - no other action or knowledge is required. Their faith will excuse any immorality, sin, or crime as long as they say they are Christians. An atheist, like myself, who lives a largely moral life - faithful in marriage, responsible financially, charitable, law-abiding, etc. is inherently evil and irredeemable but a professed "Christian" can continually commit heinous crimes (Josh Dugger) and/or public immorality (Roy Moore, Ted Haggard and innumerable others) and be considered "good people." It works much like the MAGA cult, loyalty and faith is all, principle means less than nothing, and moral and courageous acts are equivalent to shitting on the altar.
I agree Cynthia: My husband and I live a moral life and are happy, free of religious dogmas. I am a scientist and prefer to know than to believe. We adhere to humanistic values. I raised my daughter with my ex-husband, her father without any religion. She is also agnostic or atheist at 42 and very successful in her career. Her coworkers love her for her humanity and empathy.
I have confidence that a Sydney Powell and Kenneth Chesebro will abide by the terms of their plea agreement: they seem to be looking out for their own best interests.
With Jenna Ellis, I'm not so sure. She plays up being a "Christian" so much that it makes me doubt her sincerity. (Having spent 20 years in the Charismatic movement, I saw how the gospel got perverted.) Christianity SHOULD be about truth, equity and justice. However, American Christianity has become more about "Facts don't matter; it's what you BELIEVE!"
"Cry me a river"
Well said
What could possibly go wrong?
I think the castigation is justified. I also think your points about the people around the former president are well thought out. I just read a Politico article about Mitt Romney and the former president, why he had a campaign event during his own presidential run in a Trump hotel in Las Vegas, and why he entertained the idea that he could be Secretary of State in the Trump Administration. Different reasons for different events. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/10/24/orphaned-by-mccarthy-california-republicans-stand-alone-00123390?nname=california-playbook&nid=00000150-384f-da43-aff2-bf7fd35a0000&nrid=69dafda7-cfc0-4b1e-90dc-b63392b2048d&nlid=641189
Is it time for Weird Al?
It's always time for Weird Al!
"And another one gone, and another one gone, and another one bites the dust."
Everything’s strange when you’re a stranger.
As the mother of four (!) college students who are Gen Z, I have to say that the barrage of coverage by the Bulwark regarding their generation's pro Hamas position is troubling to me.
What I worry most about is that all of this coverage seems to uplift what I believe to be a minority in their generation.
Regarding the Harvard nonsense that's been covered widely in the news, I think we all understand today that Harvard is... what's the word again? Oh yes, overrated. I mean, how.many bat shit crazy attorneys have graduated from this supposed elite institution?
You see the parallels?
We cannot blanket an entire generation (or a university) with what are gross generalizations that are derived from a small number.
Oh yes, and the human brain is not fully formed until the mid twenties. Let's give these people time to experiment and learn. That's something this Gen Xer got (thank God) prior to social media and doxxing.
Exactly. There is a danger in trying to turn the exception into the rule, especially when others take that ball and run with it from their own personal passions. I got flogged in this space yesterday by someone for daring to suggest that freedom of speech is guaranteed by the Constitution, even when we find the message abhorrent, to the point that he got worked up into a lather in labeling me anti-Jewish ("you don’t like Israel and ... you think the Palestinian cause is just; that their attack on Israel was justified.") -- which, of course, I never said, much less even thought. It was a case study in a discussion going off the rails when someone can't accept truth over opinion.
For the record, I am as appalled by the pro-Hamas positions and statements as anyone else and do not subscribe to them in any way, shape, or form. But I also wonder how many respondents to a poll, young people in particular, know and understand exactly what Hamas is, what they represent, what their tactics have been over time, and how that impacts the Middle East peace process. I'd wager that, to some, Palestine = Hamas = Arafat = it's all the same. We shouldn't assume knowledge on their part just because they answer some questions. I've argued for taking these issues on a case-by-case basis and trying to engage in productive dialogue rather than going off on them with a "you're wrong, and here's why" approach. Anyone who has endured raising teenagers, and sees college kids in their natural environment, understands that one of those approaches is more likely to get them to cooperate and the other is more likely to get them to dig in their heels, fight harder, and engage more in the behavior that is objectionable. Let's all be smarter than that and use our maturity and intelligence to give guidance as the best tools in our belt.
This, exactly. My kids are 23 & 27. It’s easy to make Israel/Palestine a black & white issue, until you really study the history, and the actors (which most youth have not). Then it all gets very murky, until something like Sabra/Shatila (Israel’s invasion of Lebanon in 1978 & the Lebanese Falange slaughter of refugee Palestinians) or Hamas’ actions on 10/7 occurs. However wrong Israeli treatment of Palestinians may be, nothing justifies Hamas’ actions. 10/7 was the definition of a war crime, and it’s cowardly not to admit it.
There is a very good reason I don't touch this topic with a ten foot pole.
I may have to buy another membership to ‘like’ this comment a second time. We send our kids off to college but don’t want them to develop new opinions (again we may all feel those opinions are wrong but that’s not the point.)
Wait...weren't we told repeatedly that the youths were the ones to listen to about BLM, the environment, etc?
Always fun to see the same people who claim the youth movement is the correct one, turn on a dime and say...No, they're wrong on this, they're just young, don't listen to them.
I don't see how it's a contradiction to say the majority polled response of young people is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. It also seems like most of the commenters here agree that we have a responsibility here to learn and teach. I don't comment much on international geopolitics because what I know about it could fit into a thimble. It doesn't take a lot of education to say "Police brutality is bad."
And climate change is real.