Does anyone else get the impression that Hegseth's comments, no matter the subject, always have to include terms like "politically correct" and "stupid"? I wonder if, in his more sober moments, he realizes that he is nominally and fully responsible for what transpires in Iran from this time forward.
Not only is Hegseth a horrendous human being, he is also a deeply unserious, stupid person.
Pete might have made a passable Pentagon press secretary -- all about spinning whatever needs spinning -- but he's supposed to be in charge of the place! Get some former third runner-up Miss Alabama to do the spin. You've got to do the actual work!
Hegseth is the greatest advocate of having power without responsibility. He's the preferred SecDef for guys who've played Call of Duty online far too long.
He was picked for the same reason all his grotesque Cabinet were picked: he has no moral center, no spine, no instinct for patriotism--nothing at all in his moral makeup that might cause him to resist or attempt to restrain the Great I Am, our ranting, murderous old autocrat. Like all of them, he flatters, sloganeers, lies, flatters some more, and cashes in.
I was attempting to give him a molecule of grace when I described his "more sober moments". In the main, you're correct. But even the most hardened alcoholic has a moment from time to time when they realize the path they're on is ruinous and the consequences of their actions are briefly understood.
It's always good to look for the molecule of grace in our fellow beings. I'm too cynical by far, and you are a better person than I am.
The thing I find horrifying about Donald's inner circle is that I don't think any of them possesses the capacity for reflection or introspection: none of them have that moment that we call, at our house, the "Alec Guinness moment."
If you're a movie buff you may recognize the reference: it's about Guinness's flash of awful self-awareness at the end of the film The Bridge Over The River Kwai, when he realizes that he has brought down doom upon them all by aiming with obsessive single-mindedness for the wrong objective. "My God, what have I done?" he says.
I don't see Hegseth ever having the grace to say such a thing.
Agreed. But if we have a Beirut-style debacle and 240+ of our troops are killed, what's he going to do? Blame Hillary Clinton? I mean, I wouldn't put it past him to try, but there's going to come a moment where the full weight of his responsibilities are pressing down on his chest hard. He owns EVERYTHING that's about to happen, and he also has to realize that if things really go sideways, Trump will hang him out to dry.
The thing about the MAGAe I love the most is they're bumptious one minute when nothing's on the line and then the next minute, when they have to act like responsible adults, they do their best to avoid responsibility for their actions. BTW, Caine doesn't have operational authority as Chairman.
What plans? We don't know if this is meant to go on three days or three weeks!
Basically Trump has rented the US military to his friends in Saudi etc. Our soldiers die for their gain.
And one more thing on the topic. Bill writes: "Over the last two days, President Trump made such contradictory remarks that one can have no confidence that he really knows what he’s doing."
Why on earth would anyone have ANY confidence that this con man knows what he's doing, except when it comes to enriching himself?
Apparently only a Saturday morning host. He was not a prime time Fox guy. His square jaw and belligerent attitude is what attracted the president to him.
“..1) horrendous human being, 2) deeply unserious, 3) stupid person.” Those were the main qualifications that got him selected for his job. Oh, and let’s not forget 4) sex pest.
What's wild is that when I was in USAFE during the 80's, we would have exercises practicing similar conventional situations. Of course if it went nuclear we would launch the birds and then watch the incoming warheads.
There's a solution to this problem, though it will cost the lives of some innocent military personnel. Have Warrior Hegseth, bare-chested, personally lead a ground troop incursion into Iran, as military leaders did 500 years ago. Hecwon't last past the first firefight.
Add vicious to that and you've described him. Take a look at this morning's press conference. NYT has had it with him and was throwing shade all over the place in their "live updates" feed.
Dems should throw the stupid language right back at this admin:
"This is a globalist war that sacrifices American troops for a Israel/Saudi Arabia first agenda. This is what an America Last globalist agenda that sacrifices Americans and invites future terrorism against us looks like, and Americans will die from it."
Shit, who says that creep is ever sober? I can’t wait to see him at the tribunal without his hair gel, and the fancy suit, with tears in his eyes, as he begs for mercy.
In 2003, when we invaded Iraq, we were seen as liberators by the majority of the populace. Saddam was deeply unpopular and there was a chance that something better would emerge. Even with that popular support, due to some missteps over the subsequent 7 years, we had an enormous amount of sectarian violence. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. ISIS came to power. Thousands more died during its reign of terror. Now in Iran, the clerics have more support than Saddam did at his ouster. We don’t have a coherent opposition like in Venezuela. And unlike Iraq, and to a much lesser extent, Venezuela, we have no clear objectives here. So with a MUCH LESS competent team at the helm, we are engaging in a regime change war with a much more fanatical enemy. How could this ever go wrong?!?!
I was thinking of that over the weekend. The geography of Iran and Iraq are very different. We had the Kurds up in the mountains. In Iran, we have nothing BUT mountains where lots of people and equipment can hide ... and no allies.
I’d bet that trump is hoping for some sort of after-war afterglow to burnish his image prior to the elections. Expect glowing reports from the flowering of Iranian society, maybe even installation of a figurehead. If the GOP manages to retain control of the House, he will quickly forget about Iran, and the actual results of the war will begin to emerge.
Sorry Pete Kegstand - But we did start this "conflict." Operation Ajax a joint CIA - MI6 operation in 1953 to depose the duly-elected prime minister of Iran because he nationalized the countries oil fields. We then installed the Shah of Iran, a dictator who oppressed his people, leading to the 1979 revolution which gave us the regime we have now.
I'm absolutely sure they don't know it; even if they did it the maga cult members sure as shit don't. Just like they don't know that the people of Iran are Persians and the rest of the middle east are Arabs; two different ethnic groups.
I had to refresh my own memory over the weekend about which Middle Eastern entities are Arab, to verify my memory that Persians are not. It’s disturbing to realize how few Americans even know (or care) enough to ask the questions.
And that is very revealing. You can lead a horse to water . . .
During the “Global War on Terror” I created my own quick reference guide of Shia versus Sunni. Trying to understand the complexity.
It’s one thing when the boots in the ground aren’t curious; it’s downright terrifying when our highest echelons don’t know and don’t care as they lead us into potential catastrophe.
I learned a lot, but I have to look the the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims even now.
Those same guys were the one's who got to see ports in Japan, China, Thailand, etc. and would only eat at the local McDonalds or Burger King. I was like Dude! Go get some real local food! They were an embarrassment.
For them I suspect the Middle Eastern history began with the Iranians taking hostages in 1979. For others the history began with Desert Storm in the early '90's.
I fear Bill is being way too optimistic. I don’t see how this results in anything other than a mess. There is clearly no plan from our demented, flailing president and his drunken, war criminal of a defense secretary. And Netanyahu, MBS, et al do not care about installing a democratic government in Iran.
Oh I think both Netanyahu and MBS have their own plans. Trump certainly does not. We are the so-called super power, and Trump is being led around by Israel and Saudi Arabia and doing their bidding. And I think Iran being a failed state would suit both MBS and Netanyahu very well.
Yep. I can't shake the thought that Bibi and MBS have, in essence, rented our military, definitely did not pay for the extra collision coverage, and absolutely do not care how damaged it is once they're done being legends on their epic road trip to Tehran.
I assume they're getting what they wanted out of this, but goodness knows we aren't. Our armed services have taken casualties, we've lost planes -- and that's just over this first weekend
That’s exactly what has happened. MBS paid for what he wanted directly into Kushner’s coffers, and Netanahyu played Trump like a fiddle. General Hertling made two great points: 1) we are spending down our own munitions and 2) Bejing and Moscow are taking notes on what weapons we are using, what planes we are using, what maneuvers are taking place, etc. and using all that information to their benefit.
When Biden withdrew from Afghanistan -- spectacularly badly, I would add -- 13 Americans died. After that, all the MAGA's were screaming, "Say their names!"
I want that for Trump now. For all the men and women lost in this Iran thing, say their names.
Israel doesn’t care if Iran is a failed state, I am less sure about the Saudis as there had been a rapprochement recently if not agreement. I doubt the Saudis want chaos on their border — and if you look at a map of the Iranian coastline you can see why. Iran as a failed state would make shipping through the Persian Gulf much more expensive and dangerous. Piracy in the Persian Gulf as the Houthis have done in the Red Sea could threaten Qatar and the Emirates longterm.
I agree with that, but MBS surely doesn’t want a functioning democracy on his border either. That’s the last thing the UAE wants too. They don’t want their people seeing democracy so close at hand.
I'm sure the Saudis are worried about the Iranian Navy becoming the World's second most well armed pirate organization. Of course trump made our Navy the #1 pirate organization. "You wanna ship your oil through the straits? F you, pay me!"
I think we all share that hope, Bill, but the hope I have feels empty. If the smartest people in the world were running the show, this would still feel like buying a lottery ticket as a strategy for getting out of debt. And of course the dumbest people in the world are currently running the show . . .
I'm glad you pointed this out. Even the smartest people can have a lack of imagination and can be poor at assessing risk. What we have now are a bunch of teenage boys swinging their junk around without a care about what could go wrong.
Re: "Congress can act to prevent Donald Trump from leaving our own Constitution “an absolute mess.”"
Yeah, but they won't.
This morning, I heard Hakeem Jeffries going on and on about how this doesn't address "affordability."
The Republicans? Pretty silent. They know perfectly well that 1) the Trump base will likely hear very little about anything going on over Iran because Fox News won't tell them and, even if they DO hear something, it'll be all Lee Greenwood, support our brave troops stuff and 2) they know the Democrats will be going on and on about "affordability" and other conceptual stuff that doesn't make any sense.
Last week, after the State of the Union, Abigail Spanberger had the opportunity to deliver a "what the hell was that?!"- type response. She started with affordability and, near the end, got around to talking about real stuff.
Democrats can't win this fight until they start talking about stuff that matters. There are armed, masked, violent government goons sweeping up old, blind men and leaving them to die in the snow. They are gunning down Americans who deign to record what they're doing. The Trump DoJ -- the people who are supposed to be enforcing the law -- are violating the law, multiple times every day, and government lawyers are lying in court and getting sanctioned because of it. We've got a drunken, wife-beating mediocrity running the Department of Defense and Americans are getting killed in the Middle East for no articulable reason.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE PRICE OF EGGS RIGHT NOW.
And if there are concerns about prices -- and there should be -- them those concerns must be stated in this larger context. The country is going to shit. Trump and his flunkies are why. You may not agree with Democrats on everything and certainly they've concentrated on nonsense for a long time, so it's understandable why you might not be all excited about putting them in charge, but the Trump forces need to be checked and balanced.
The problem here is that Trump has no idea how to run a war. To him, it is more like some computer game that he can play to his heart’s content until something else claims his attention.
Three times in my own lifetime, American administrations have attempted to ‘arrange regime change in some foreign country. And how did they work out? Tens of thousands of American kids dead, injured, or psychologically damaged. Millions of Vietnamese, Iraqis, and Afghanis dead. Countries ravaged. Towns, farms, and cities destroyed. And those wars were run by men and women far more competent than the clowns in this administration.
I’m deeply afraid of a worst case scenario with the war in Iran. Trump gets bored after a few weeks and declares victory and leaves, Iran collapses into civil war, the whole region is destabilized with resulting massive suffering and death, Trump gets a domestic victory because no one in America cares that he just made everything worse. America getting a taste for random violence against other nations seems like a really bad thing if it happens. To be clear I would love for the people of Iran to be free but I doubt the stupidest people in the country running a war no one understands will result in much good.
I can picture various generals and colonels becoming regional warlords and the Iranian Navy becoming a very well armed pirate force holding the Straits of Hormuz hostage,
This is exactly my thoughts as well. I could imagine them raiding the countries across the Gulf as well. Someone yesterday on the different forum suggested the UAE and other Gulf states could control a buffer zone in Iran to prevent that possibility, which made me question whether they had looked at a map of the Iranian coast. They then went on to insist it wouldn’t really matter if the straight of Hormuz was closed.
They sound clueless! The UAE and others will have a hard enough time protecting their own ports let alone occupying a "buffer zone" in Iran. Not only will it make it tough to ship their oil, I'm sure with Iranian gunboats just offshore, it might effect them being a popular tourist spot. "Snookums, I'm afraid we're not taking the yacht to Dubai this season."
Iran falling into civil war and chaos will suck in the surrounding states and likely make Trump’s Gulf friends less safe and desirable investment opportunities. It will not be without consequences even for us.
No one ever said that leaders know what’s good for them. Honestly trying to figure out why Trump admin does anything is virtually impossible because they are simultaneously very evil and very stupid. Do their plans make no sense because they are cruel and want to cause as much chaos as possible or are they so stupid they think this is a good idea?
There factions within in the armed forces and government actors that could fall out with each other and start fighting over the future of Iran. We’ve seen this a number of times, but not an opposition per se.
And then some time in the next 10 years, after Trump is out of office, the consequences will hit home somehow and Americans will look around wondering how this happened.
I'm guessing it's going to go something like this:
Trump: "We gave the Iranian people a Golden Opportunity. We said, "you have this terrible government. Terrible. Terrible people. Terrible leaders. And we freed you from them. Killed them. Very ... and the media doesn't like when I say this, but that's okay ... very violently. Our brave pilots. They flew those planes. The best in the world. And they flew them. And they bombed Iran and they, beautifully, I might add. And they bombed Iran and they killed those awful, terrible people. the worst of the worst, like, really bad people and we said, "Now you have your freedom" and they didn't do what they needed to do. And now they have to deal with that because that's not our job. Our job was to take out the bad people. And we did."
And that'll be it. We'll get some new crop of despots and Trump will leave it to someone else to clean up.
I'm no anthropologist or sociologist or anything, but I remember, ages ago, hearing from some Iranian government official something to the effect that "We're Persians. Great Kings have tried to conquer us before and they've always failed."
I thought, at the time, this is how the Iranians see themselves, a unique culture in the Middle East. Persians. Stewards of an ancient culture and society.
Just speculating here, but this is probably going to solidify them in that view. Yeah, they were governed by despots, but at least they were Persian despots. They're not going to be thrilled about being governed by the Israelis, the Americans and whatever other groups are allied with the Saudis. These people will fight back.
That revolution they had in 1979 threw out the Shah who they saw as an American puppet and put in the government they've had ever since. The west didn't install Khomeini. The Iranians did.
Was that a bad call? I think it was. I'm betting a lot of Iranians did too, at the time, but it was Iranians that did it. They chose their government. They could have chosen differently at any time since, but they didn't. Now we've forced changed on them. I don't see this going well.
Again channeling pundits from the deep past, who is the Iranian Thomas Jefferson? I'm guessing there isn't one.
I recall back then that the understanding was a rural revolt against the cosmopolitan city of Teheran and the Shah is what happened in 1979. The city had wealth and was far from following the strict fundamentals of Islam so it was subjugated and the Shah thrown out.
I don't know whether there is an Irani Thomas Jefferson. I do know that the Shah was the Irani King George III. Imagine if George III had been put in place by, say, the Pope. How would we feel if the Pope were back telling us our leaders are no good and need replacing, backed by hundreds of air strikes?
I have 2 questions I would like media people to ask:
1- How much money did the Saudi's and Netanyahu pay Trump to use our military to attack Iran; and,
2- Is every elected official supporting this war willing to put on the uniform grab a gun and hold the front line before they send my son to do it for them.
I want the media asking this EVERY F**CKING DAY!!!
We have heard the words "Constitutional Crisis" so many times that those words have come to mean "He violated the Constitution but no one is going to do anything about it.". We are a failed state under the control of a sub-human-intelligence senile old man who is playing dress up a king.
I understand the impulse to try to find the pony in the pile of shit we're all inhabiting at this moment, but anything good that comes from killing Iran's leadership will be an accident of the chaos this war unleashes. We really need to stop pretending that this administration has any benign intentions whatsoever. They're not just incapable of nurturing democracy. They are actively opposed to the concepts of human liberty and equality. Destroying democracy is their express purpose, and we ought to be careful about even implying otherwise.
I really appreciate and resonate with this comment. It's similar to a FB discussion I was in yesterday where I challenged someone who was calling their local Dem politician "pro-Iranian" because they were cautioning against regime change. That doesn't mean they are pro-Iranian.
Where I find the similarity of arguments is the conundrum of stating that the odds aren't very high of this being successful without sounding like you want the operation to fail....AND....on the flip side...a successful regime change doesn't mean it was a well thought out and executed plan.
It's like betting your entire pot on a single number in Roulette and it hitting. It wasn't good strategy...it was dumb luck and should not be confused with talent in any way, shape or form.
The sickest part of that last analogy is that Trump's betting with house money (i.e. ours) and not his own.
"Apparently, this war will go better than Iraq and Afghanistan because we have no long-term objectives: Trump “called the last twenty years of nation-building wars dumb, and he’s right. This is the opposite,” Hegseth said. “No stupid rules of engagement. No nation-building quagmire. No democracy-building exercise. No politically correct wars.”
I suppose they had to let him talk sometime he could only stay busy for so long setting the scouts right and laying the framework for the "trump youth" He doesn't seem to have any idea how dumb and embarrassing he sounds. As long as they don't let him make a decision.
The arrogance of the regime is truly staggering. At least Bush and his crew had enough respect for democracy to spend a full year lying to us about Iraqi WMDs.
Trump is so stunningly disdainful of the democratic process, so utterly confident in his vice like grip on the spineless weenies that were once the Republic Party and so completely sure of his cult's utter devotion that he hasn't even really tried to come up with a rationale for this mess.
Does anyone else get the impression that Hegseth's comments, no matter the subject, always have to include terms like "politically correct" and "stupid"? I wonder if, in his more sober moments, he realizes that he is nominally and fully responsible for what transpires in Iran from this time forward.
Not only is Hegseth a horrendous human being, he is also a deeply unserious, stupid person.
Well, when you have the vocabulary of a third grader you stick with what you know.
"Woke". "Liberal". "Weak".
It's like Hegseth has a MAGA 8 ball that he shakes at any given time.
Gotta add "the media."
Right. I'm sorry, Pete, but "the media" was not confirmed by the Senate to run the Pentagon. You were.
Pete might have made a passable Pentagon press secretary -- all about spinning whatever needs spinning -- but he's supposed to be in charge of the place! Get some former third runner-up Miss Alabama to do the spin. You've got to do the actual work!
He's too busy doing push ups to, you know, actually care about the job.
And “lethal” and “unapologetic”
Hegseth is the greatest advocate of having power without responsibility. He's the preferred SecDef for guys who've played Call of Duty online far too long.
"kinetic"
+1.
You're assuming he has "more sober moments."
He was picked for the same reason all his grotesque Cabinet were picked: he has no moral center, no spine, no instinct for patriotism--nothing at all in his moral makeup that might cause him to resist or attempt to restrain the Great I Am, our ranting, murderous old autocrat. Like all of them, he flatters, sloganeers, lies, flatters some more, and cashes in.
I was attempting to give him a molecule of grace when I described his "more sober moments". In the main, you're correct. But even the most hardened alcoholic has a moment from time to time when they realize the path they're on is ruinous and the consequences of their actions are briefly understood.
It's always good to look for the molecule of grace in our fellow beings. I'm too cynical by far, and you are a better person than I am.
The thing I find horrifying about Donald's inner circle is that I don't think any of them possesses the capacity for reflection or introspection: none of them have that moment that we call, at our house, the "Alec Guinness moment."
If you're a movie buff you may recognize the reference: it's about Guinness's flash of awful self-awareness at the end of the film The Bridge Over The River Kwai, when he realizes that he has brought down doom upon them all by aiming with obsessive single-mindedness for the wrong objective. "My God, what have I done?" he says.
I don't see Hegseth ever having the grace to say such a thing.
The one thing he has is the ability to be a first-rate sycophant. He will execute any dumb idea Loose Cannon comes up with!
His main qualification was being. Fox News host.
There's a special place in hell for Rupert Murdoch.
AMEN!!!
Agreed. But if we have a Beirut-style debacle and 240+ of our troops are killed, what's he going to do? Blame Hillary Clinton? I mean, I wouldn't put it past him to try, but there's going to come a moment where the full weight of his responsibilities are pressing down on his chest hard. He owns EVERYTHING that's about to happen, and he also has to realize that if things really go sideways, Trump will hang him out to dry.
I don't actually think he was all that involved in the Iran decision. He's functioning as he was hired to function, Pentagon Fox Spokesman.
Which begs the question: who is responsible for the execution of the administration's plans in Iran?
Razin' Kaine I guess. If he's right, the war will end in two weeks when we run out of both offensive and defensive missles.
The thing about the MAGAe I love the most is they're bumptious one minute when nothing's on the line and then the next minute, when they have to act like responsible adults, they do their best to avoid responsibility for their actions. BTW, Caine doesn't have operational authority as Chairman.
We keep turning towards our government as if it has answers. Maybe ask Bibi.
You assume there are plans. From what everybody -- including President Man -- has said, it's "let's bomb them and see what happens."
What plans? We don't know if this is meant to go on three days or three weeks!
Basically Trump has rented the US military to his friends in Saudi etc. Our soldiers die for their gain.
And one more thing on the topic. Bill writes: "Over the last two days, President Trump made such contradictory remarks that one can have no confidence that he really knows what he’s doing."
Why on earth would anyone have ANY confidence that this con man knows what he's doing, except when it comes to enriching himself?
And finding a new culprit to accuse of RIGGING the 2020 election.
Ever heard of alcohol poisoning?
Yup. And I'm sure Hegseth is familiar with it, too.
There will always be a fresh scapegoat. 😀
A weekend Fox News host, no less
Apparently only a Saturday morning host. He was not a prime time Fox guy. His square jaw and belligerent attitude is what attracted the president to him.
“..1) horrendous human being, 2) deeply unserious, 3) stupid person.” Those were the main qualifications that got him selected for his job. Oh, and let’s not forget 4) sex pest.
He sounds like a middle aged uncle who has read too many Tom Clancy novels.
You're not wrong.
There are a few good lessons buried in the ones Clancy actually wrote.
I don't care what anyone thinks, Red October was a fun read.
I liked Red Storm Rising too.
Yeah, that was a fun read.
What's wild is that when I was in USAFE during the 80's, we would have exercises practicing similar conventional situations. Of course if it went nuclear we would launch the birds and then watch the incoming warheads.
There's a solution to this problem, though it will cost the lives of some innocent military personnel. Have Warrior Hegseth, bare-chested, personally lead a ground troop incursion into Iran, as military leaders did 500 years ago. Hecwon't last past the first firefight.
"Barron! Take point."
Hegseth? Man, that dude is wound way too tight to be the Secretary of Defense.
Yep. I watched the press conference this morning. He was shrill and histrionic.
Add vicious to that and you've described him. Take a look at this morning's press conference. NYT has had it with him and was throwing shade all over the place in their "live updates" feed.
It’s very important that “the war” conduct no pronoun use….
This is his own private war against the things that constrained him while he was in the military service. Rules and stuff get in his way.
Dems should throw the stupid language right back at this admin:
"This is a globalist war that sacrifices American troops for a Israel/Saudi Arabia first agenda. This is what an America Last globalist agenda that sacrifices Americans and invites future terrorism against us looks like, and Americans will die from it."
The main problem..he has so few sober moments.
RE: "a deeply unserious and stupid person"
A generic label for Trump's cabinet secretaries and the vast majority of his other appointees if ever there was one.
Shit, who says that creep is ever sober? I can’t wait to see him at the tribunal without his hair gel, and the fancy suit, with tears in his eyes, as he begs for mercy.
Projection, projection.
Not to mention biblical levels of insecurity!
In 2003, when we invaded Iraq, we were seen as liberators by the majority of the populace. Saddam was deeply unpopular and there was a chance that something better would emerge. Even with that popular support, due to some missteps over the subsequent 7 years, we had an enormous amount of sectarian violence. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died. ISIS came to power. Thousands more died during its reign of terror. Now in Iran, the clerics have more support than Saddam did at his ouster. We don’t have a coherent opposition like in Venezuela. And unlike Iraq, and to a much lesser extent, Venezuela, we have no clear objectives here. So with a MUCH LESS competent team at the helm, we are engaging in a regime change war with a much more fanatical enemy. How could this ever go wrong?!?!
Oh, and lest we forget, we had allies in the Kurds INSIDE Iraq! We don’t even have a reliable local partner with whom we can engage!!
I was thinking of that over the weekend. The geography of Iran and Iraq are very different. We had the Kurds up in the mountains. In Iran, we have nothing BUT mountains where lots of people and equipment can hide ... and no allies.
Trump betrayed them, and don't think they and others in the region have forgotten it. They have long memories in that part of the world.
Exactly! To them the Crusades are recent history.
No kidding. I once found myself being blamed for the Crusades. Apartheid, too, and not because the guy ranting at me thought I was South African.
And to achieve that degree of success in Iraq, there needed to be boots on the ground, and lots of them.
Hundreds of thousands of boots.
Killed
I’d bet that trump is hoping for some sort of after-war afterglow to burnish his image prior to the elections. Expect glowing reports from the flowering of Iranian society, maybe even installation of a figurehead. If the GOP manages to retain control of the House, he will quickly forget about Iran, and the actual results of the war will begin to emerge.
And the Trump International Golf Resort Tehran. Opening Soon!
Trump Hotel and Casino overlooking the Persian Gulf!
Air Shows Nightly!
Oh Fuckwit Trump is gonna have a glow alright….a “burn in Hell” glow!
Sorry Pete Kegstand - But we did start this "conflict." Operation Ajax a joint CIA - MI6 operation in 1953 to depose the duly-elected prime minister of Iran because he nationalized the countries oil fields. We then installed the Shah of Iran, a dictator who oppressed his people, leading to the 1979 revolution which gave us the regime we have now.
And we were tricked into doing that by the Brits, on behalf of British Petroleum, whose oil fields were to be nationalized.
And that was after the USSR and the Brits split the country into spheres of influence and took over the oil fields during WWII ....with US approval.
Correct!
I’m sure Trump, Hegseth, etc are well aware of that history. Right? Right?
I'm absolutely sure they don't know it; even if they did it the maga cult members sure as shit don't. Just like they don't know that the people of Iran are Persians and the rest of the middle east are Arabs; two different ethnic groups.
I had to refresh my own memory over the weekend about which Middle Eastern entities are Arab, to verify my memory that Persians are not. It’s disturbing to realize how few Americans even know (or care) enough to ask the questions.
I was deployed to the Persian Gulf three times in the 90's in the Navy, I got quite an education although most of the guys I served with didn't.
And that is very revealing. You can lead a horse to water . . .
During the “Global War on Terror” I created my own quick reference guide of Shia versus Sunni. Trying to understand the complexity.
It’s one thing when the boots in the ground aren’t curious; it’s downright terrifying when our highest echelons don’t know and don’t care as they lead us into potential catastrophe.
True, my cat is smarter then most of them are.
I learned a lot, but I have to look the the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims even now.
Those same guys were the one's who got to see ports in Japan, China, Thailand, etc. and would only eat at the local McDonalds or Burger King. I was like Dude! Go get some real local food! They were an embarrassment.
But there are many ethnicities in Iran: Kurds, even some Arabs, Armenians, Azeris, etc.
Thank you. There is so much to learn about the Middle East. I wish our “leaders”had bothered.
For them I suspect the Middle Eastern history began with the Iranians taking hostages in 1979. For others the history began with Desert Storm in the early '90's.
Good point!
I fear Bill is being way too optimistic. I don’t see how this results in anything other than a mess. There is clearly no plan from our demented, flailing president and his drunken, war criminal of a defense secretary. And Netanyahu, MBS, et al do not care about installing a democratic government in Iran.
Don't you think Bibi has a plan? Maybe making a mess IS the plan.
Oh I think both Netanyahu and MBS have their own plans. Trump certainly does not. We are the so-called super power, and Trump is being led around by Israel and Saudi Arabia and doing their bidding. And I think Iran being a failed state would suit both MBS and Netanyahu very well.
Yep. We're burning up ammunition that Bibi and MBS don't have to buy.
And both Saudi Arabia and Israel have featured scum bags at the highest levels of their governments in the Epstein files. It's a small world I guess.
Yep. I can't shake the thought that Bibi and MBS have, in essence, rented our military, definitely did not pay for the extra collision coverage, and absolutely do not care how damaged it is once they're done being legends on their epic road trip to Tehran.
I assume they're getting what they wanted out of this, but goodness knows we aren't. Our armed services have taken casualties, we've lost planes -- and that's just over this first weekend
That’s exactly what has happened. MBS paid for what he wanted directly into Kushner’s coffers, and Netanahyu played Trump like a fiddle. General Hertling made two great points: 1) we are spending down our own munitions and 2) Bejing and Moscow are taking notes on what weapons we are using, what planes we are using, what maneuvers are taking place, etc. and using all that information to their benefit.
When Biden withdrew from Afghanistan -- spectacularly badly, I would add -- 13 Americans died. After that, all the MAGA's were screaming, "Say their names!"
I want that for Trump now. For all the men and women lost in this Iran thing, say their names.
Ironically, Biden's hands were tied and had to follow trump's incompetent withdrawal plans. The magat morons still complained.
And running out fast, according to an article in the WSJ yesterday:
It seems like Netanyahu and MBS being involved negatively impact Trump's ability to declare an early victory and TACO
I fear the US military is now being used as a mercenary force deployed by a president that seeks favor from strongmen in other countries.
But at least Saudi Arabia greased Trump’s palm ahead of the military action. To lubricate Trump’s compliance.
Israel’s payment will be giving the Trump family Gaza to control. Trump knows what they will pay, I am just not sure the Israelis realize it yet.
The US military is now a gun for hire.
It is. Every single thing about the Trump regime is connected to the grift and bribery of the Trump family.
Israel doesn’t care if Iran is a failed state, I am less sure about the Saudis as there had been a rapprochement recently if not agreement. I doubt the Saudis want chaos on their border — and if you look at a map of the Iranian coastline you can see why. Iran as a failed state would make shipping through the Persian Gulf much more expensive and dangerous. Piracy in the Persian Gulf as the Houthis have done in the Red Sea could threaten Qatar and the Emirates longterm.
I agree with that, but MBS surely doesn’t want a functioning democracy on his border either. That’s the last thing the UAE wants too. They don’t want their people seeing democracy so close at hand.
I'm sure the Saudis are worried about the Iranian Navy becoming the World's second most well armed pirate organization. Of course trump made our Navy the #1 pirate organization. "You wanna ship your oil through the straits? F you, pay me!"
I think we all share that hope, Bill, but the hope I have feels empty. If the smartest people in the world were running the show, this would still feel like buying a lottery ticket as a strategy for getting out of debt. And of course the dumbest people in the world are currently running the show . . .
I'm glad you pointed this out. Even the smartest people can have a lack of imagination and can be poor at assessing risk. What we have now are a bunch of teenage boys swinging their junk around without a care about what could go wrong.
Turns out if you just bomb a large country, take out their leaders, and don’t try to actually help the people, war is really easy!
Why didn’t we think of this before?!?
And if some of you non-millionaires have to die, that’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make. That’s just the way war is, so no crying.
They’ve installed new leaders.
I'm sure, given his age, the powers that be in Iran already had plans made for his demise, whether "manmade" or natural.
Whoda thunk it?
Re: "Congress can act to prevent Donald Trump from leaving our own Constitution “an absolute mess.”"
Yeah, but they won't.
This morning, I heard Hakeem Jeffries going on and on about how this doesn't address "affordability."
The Republicans? Pretty silent. They know perfectly well that 1) the Trump base will likely hear very little about anything going on over Iran because Fox News won't tell them and, even if they DO hear something, it'll be all Lee Greenwood, support our brave troops stuff and 2) they know the Democrats will be going on and on about "affordability" and other conceptual stuff that doesn't make any sense.
Last week, after the State of the Union, Abigail Spanberger had the opportunity to deliver a "what the hell was that?!"- type response. She started with affordability and, near the end, got around to talking about real stuff.
Democrats can't win this fight until they start talking about stuff that matters. There are armed, masked, violent government goons sweeping up old, blind men and leaving them to die in the snow. They are gunning down Americans who deign to record what they're doing. The Trump DoJ -- the people who are supposed to be enforcing the law -- are violating the law, multiple times every day, and government lawyers are lying in court and getting sanctioned because of it. We've got a drunken, wife-beating mediocrity running the Department of Defense and Americans are getting killed in the Middle East for no articulable reason.
I DO NOT CARE ABOUT THE PRICE OF EGGS RIGHT NOW.
And if there are concerns about prices -- and there should be -- them those concerns must be stated in this larger context. The country is going to shit. Trump and his flunkies are why. You may not agree with Democrats on everything and certainly they've concentrated on nonsense for a long time, so it's understandable why you might not be all excited about putting them in charge, but the Trump forces need to be checked and balanced.
The problem here is that Trump has no idea how to run a war. To him, it is more like some computer game that he can play to his heart’s content until something else claims his attention.
Three times in my own lifetime, American administrations have attempted to ‘arrange regime change in some foreign country. And how did they work out? Tens of thousands of American kids dead, injured, or psychologically damaged. Millions of Vietnamese, Iraqis, and Afghanis dead. Countries ravaged. Towns, farms, and cities destroyed. And those wars were run by men and women far more competent than the clowns in this administration.
Well said!
frump has no idea how to run anything
I’m deeply afraid of a worst case scenario with the war in Iran. Trump gets bored after a few weeks and declares victory and leaves, Iran collapses into civil war, the whole region is destabilized with resulting massive suffering and death, Trump gets a domestic victory because no one in America cares that he just made everything worse. America getting a taste for random violence against other nations seems like a really bad thing if it happens. To be clear I would love for the people of Iran to be free but I doubt the stupidest people in the country running a war no one understands will result in much good.
I can picture various generals and colonels becoming regional warlords and the Iranian Navy becoming a very well armed pirate force holding the Straits of Hormuz hostage,
For excellent non political coverage on shipping see the YouTube channel “What’s Going on with Shipping?”
https://youtu.be/1g7lSBUjSfI?si=4tyrooFRnvrRV4rO
This is exactly my thoughts as well. I could imagine them raiding the countries across the Gulf as well. Someone yesterday on the different forum suggested the UAE and other Gulf states could control a buffer zone in Iran to prevent that possibility, which made me question whether they had looked at a map of the Iranian coast. They then went on to insist it wouldn’t really matter if the straight of Hormuz was closed.
They sound clueless! The UAE and others will have a hard enough time protecting their own ports let alone occupying a "buffer zone" in Iran. Not only will it make it tough to ship their oil, I'm sure with Iranian gunboats just offshore, it might effect them being a popular tourist spot. "Snookums, I'm afraid we're not taking the yacht to Dubai this season."
Taking the yacht to Dubai may take on a new meaning.
Iran falling into civil war and chaos will suck in the surrounding states and likely make Trump’s Gulf friends less safe and desirable investment opportunities. It will not be without consequences even for us.
No one ever said that leaders know what’s good for them. Honestly trying to figure out why Trump admin does anything is virtually impossible because they are simultaneously very evil and very stupid. Do their plans make no sense because they are cruel and want to cause as much chaos as possible or are they so stupid they think this is a good idea?
bibi (a criminal) visited criminal frump and we get war and espstein discussion is being preempted -
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!
All they see is possible personal profit in it.
How can there be civil war if the opposition is completely unarmed?
There factions within in the armed forces and government actors that could fall out with each other and start fighting over the future of Iran. We’ve seen this a number of times, but not an opposition per se.
And then some time in the next 10 years, after Trump is out of office, the consequences will hit home somehow and Americans will look around wondering how this happened.
And they will vote for Baron Trump to fix it.
I’m putting bets on the regime continuing. The paramilitary in Iran are big and well armed. The population as a whole is completely unarmed.
Hegseth: Deciding when we've won will be the prerogative of the President. (We don't need no stinkin' rational objective.)
Noting that the regime depth chart is chock full of Clerics and Republican Guard figures, two of them named "Khomenei."
I'm guessing it's going to go something like this:
Trump: "We gave the Iranian people a Golden Opportunity. We said, "you have this terrible government. Terrible. Terrible people. Terrible leaders. And we freed you from them. Killed them. Very ... and the media doesn't like when I say this, but that's okay ... very violently. Our brave pilots. They flew those planes. The best in the world. And they flew them. And they bombed Iran and they, beautifully, I might add. And they bombed Iran and they killed those awful, terrible people. the worst of the worst, like, really bad people and we said, "Now you have your freedom" and they didn't do what they needed to do. And now they have to deal with that because that's not our job. Our job was to take out the bad people. And we did."
And that'll be it. We'll get some new crop of despots and Trump will leave it to someone else to clean up.
You must have channeled Trump. Nice job.
You wouldn't by chance be the guy who works nights cleaning up Trump's TS posts?
Now we have a fresh crop of very bad people made badder by their knowledge that The Great Satan has killed their relatives.
I'm no anthropologist or sociologist or anything, but I remember, ages ago, hearing from some Iranian government official something to the effect that "We're Persians. Great Kings have tried to conquer us before and they've always failed."
I thought, at the time, this is how the Iranians see themselves, a unique culture in the Middle East. Persians. Stewards of an ancient culture and society.
Just speculating here, but this is probably going to solidify them in that view. Yeah, they were governed by despots, but at least they were Persian despots. They're not going to be thrilled about being governed by the Israelis, the Americans and whatever other groups are allied with the Saudis. These people will fight back.
Persian and Shia, holding a correct view as to Allah's wishes.
That revolution they had in 1979 threw out the Shah who they saw as an American puppet and put in the government they've had ever since. The west didn't install Khomeini. The Iranians did.
Was that a bad call? I think it was. I'm betting a lot of Iranians did too, at the time, but it was Iranians that did it. They chose their government. They could have chosen differently at any time since, but they didn't. Now we've forced changed on them. I don't see this going well.
Again channeling pundits from the deep past, who is the Iranian Thomas Jefferson? I'm guessing there isn't one.
I recall back then that the understanding was a rural revolt against the cosmopolitan city of Teheran and the Shah is what happened in 1979. The city had wealth and was far from following the strict fundamentals of Islam so it was subjugated and the Shah thrown out.
I don't know whether there is an Irani Thomas Jefferson. I do know that the Shah was the Irani King George III. Imagine if George III had been put in place by, say, the Pope. How would we feel if the Pope were back telling us our leaders are no good and need replacing, backed by hundreds of air strikes?
Is that you John Barron?
It’s literally insane to talk about war that way. Quite literally goes against any study of armed conflict ever.
We were looking for someone named Khomenei when we found that one.
Why worry about Congress? As long as it's in GOP hands, they'll roll over for Dear Leader.
I have 2 questions I would like media people to ask:
1- How much money did the Saudi's and Netanyahu pay Trump to use our military to attack Iran; and,
2- Is every elected official supporting this war willing to put on the uniform grab a gun and hold the front line before they send my son to do it for them.
I want the media asking this EVERY F**CKING DAY!!!
AND WHAT ABOUT THE EPSTEIN FILES
Asking as an Army mom!!!
If they reinstate the draft because of this war crime, by hook or crook my boys are going to Canada!
Send them to Canada now and avoid the rush when Hegseth reinstates the draft.
Good idea!
I have two sons in their 20’s and happy that we live in 🇨🇦 where there hasn’t been a draft since 1945.
We have heard the words "Constitutional Crisis" so many times that those words have come to mean "He violated the Constitution but no one is going to do anything about it.". We are a failed state under the control of a sub-human-intelligence senile old man who is playing dress up a king.
I understand the impulse to try to find the pony in the pile of shit we're all inhabiting at this moment, but anything good that comes from killing Iran's leadership will be an accident of the chaos this war unleashes. We really need to stop pretending that this administration has any benign intentions whatsoever. They're not just incapable of nurturing democracy. They are actively opposed to the concepts of human liberty and equality. Destroying democracy is their express purpose, and we ought to be careful about even implying otherwise.
I really appreciate and resonate with this comment. It's similar to a FB discussion I was in yesterday where I challenged someone who was calling their local Dem politician "pro-Iranian" because they were cautioning against regime change. That doesn't mean they are pro-Iranian.
Where I find the similarity of arguments is the conundrum of stating that the odds aren't very high of this being successful without sounding like you want the operation to fail....AND....on the flip side...a successful regime change doesn't mean it was a well thought out and executed plan.
It's like betting your entire pot on a single number in Roulette and it hitting. It wasn't good strategy...it was dumb luck and should not be confused with talent in any way, shape or form.
The sickest part of that last analogy is that Trump's betting with house money (i.e. ours) and not his own.
"Apparently, this war will go better than Iraq and Afghanistan because we have no long-term objectives: Trump “called the last twenty years of nation-building wars dumb, and he’s right. This is the opposite,” Hegseth said. “No stupid rules of engagement. No nation-building quagmire. No democracy-building exercise. No politically correct wars.”
I suppose they had to let him talk sometime he could only stay busy for so long setting the scouts right and laying the framework for the "trump youth" He doesn't seem to have any idea how dumb and embarrassing he sounds. As long as they don't let him make a decision.
“Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war”.
Hold my beer.
TBF Hegseth not likely to hand off a beer
Smash the empty against his forehead?
Exactly! Felt like SNL writers room really dropped the ball on that. Yet Lorne still won’t take my calls…
The arrogance of the regime is truly staggering. At least Bush and his crew had enough respect for democracy to spend a full year lying to us about Iraqi WMDs.
Trump is so stunningly disdainful of the democratic process, so utterly confident in his vice like grip on the spineless weenies that were once the Republic Party and so completely sure of his cult's utter devotion that he hasn't even really tried to come up with a rationale for this mess.
Yeah, at least Bush bought us dinner first.