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Nick's avatar

Great piece, JVL. I also do not believe anyone will be leaving CECOT.

I appreciate what Murphy and Van Hollen are doing and hope more in congress step up.

I posted this on Bluesky:

The Democrat leadership needs to start threatening indictments. Maybe some of the ICE agents and low level government officials start having second thoughts.

“When the Democrats retake Congress in 26 and the White House in 28 we will pursue every avenue to ensure that justice is served to all the participants in the illegal kidnappings and deportations to El Salvador”.

Let’s start putting some fear into the participants of these illegal actions. It will not stop many of the evil maniacs from following orders but it may give some folks some pause.

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JB's avatar

Yes. ICE is directly carrying out illegal acts of terrorism. Start there. Do we even know who these people working for ICE are?

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David Skoglund's avatar

I remember Congressman Leo Ryan going to Guyana to monitor what was going on with the Jonestown cult in 1978. He and others were gunned down by cult members.

I know the comparison is inexact but I worry about Senator Chris Van Hollen for similar reasons. He is a hero for putting himself in the situation.

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ThisIsNotNormal's avatar

I thought of this as well. Jackie Speier was my Congressional Rep. for many years.

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Ellen Hinchee's avatar

No threatening. But surely there are some AGs or DAs who are aware of possible crimes being committed in their jurisdictions that could be charged and prosecuted as state offenses. Then start investigating the crimes and identifying suspects. Get busy on it like any other crime.

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Mark's avatar

You are making a big leap of faith that the 2026 elections will be free and fair. I think that's a long putt right now. What signs have you seen that this administration will ever respect our old Constitutional representative government?

Edit: also more importantly, Trump has shown a willingness to pardon anyone who does something wrong in exchange for their support.

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Tara's avatar

It’s not gone until it’s gone. That defeatist attitude does nothing to help. It’s folding before the fight. Strap on some courage and get in the fight!

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Mark's avatar

I was thinking about this when I woke up today. What are the steps we should be taking NOW to ensure that we still have a free and fair democratic election in 2026?

I'm not a Polyanna hoping for the best. I deal in practical realities. What should everyone who's concerned (and I'd guess that's a lot of people) be doing? I think the status quo and hope is not a strategy. It's clear some people have an agenda, we need to figure out how to derail it. Otherwise we're going to see the 22nd amendment go away in 2028.

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Tara's avatar

Contact your representatives on a regular basis, attend protests when and where possible, talk to others who may not know what’s going on, attend town halls if your congress person or senators hold them. Not gonna lie, it feels kinda hopeless, but the more people doing these kinds of things, the more chance we have to make a difference. It really will only work if we have the numbers on our side. We really need a high-profile person or people leading some sort of movement, but I don’t know who or what exactly.

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ThisIsNotNormal's avatar

If you're not already familiar follow Mark Elias of the Elias Law Group and his organization Democracy Docket. He is the attorney who led (and won) a majority of the legal cases around the 2020 Election.

Steve Bannon once told Sir Cheeto Face to offer Mark $5 million so they would stop losing to him in court.

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Tara's avatar

I stopped following him at some point after 2020 because he annoyingly liked to attack former Republicans like Liz Cheney. Maybe it’s time for a re-follow now that the focus has (or should have) changed.

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ThisIsNotNormal's avatar

He’s so busy with all the lawsuits against the current administration’s blatant disregard for the law and voter’s rights he doesn’t have time for Liz.

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Mark's avatar

The absolute lack of sharp elbows and leadership of any kind in a resistance is disheartening. There's 1000 voices all asking for different things, some of it completely left of center and sure to fail at the ballot box for the majority of Americans. A fractured grass roots resistance is easily swept aside when the bad guys are organized. The overriding principle needs to be that you can't always get what you want, but you should get what you need.

I've dealt with bullies in my life. You hit them where it hurts publicly, you don't tell the teacher, which is what calling my congressman and senator feels like today. They have little incentive to make their lives harder just because you left them yet another voicemail, snail mail, etc. I think these townhalls are a good start, but there needs to be more vocal dissent. They should know we disagree, but calling them expecting action is an old world solution. They aren't going to save us.

I'm happy to put my time and organizational expertise behind something that is doing real work, but I'm not at all interested in pushing some hard left agenda thinking that's the path forward. No one seems to be putting together the actual platform of what we think the alternative should be. I see a grab-bag of special interest proposals (e.g. medicare for all! legalize pot! $50k for new homebuyers!), that's not a platform. What is the alternative to MAGA and project 2025? Where's the comprehensive vision grounded in reality that people can get behind?

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Tara's avatar

I don’t disagree with you, but again, it’s a numbers game. We have to be consistently loud in large numbers. Not all of them will do something, but we have to wake up and activate the ones we can. At the very least, leave them no room for excuses.

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Different drummer's avatar

IMO that would be considered a totally empty threat in T'world b/c they have every intention of making sure we NEVER take back either Congress or the WH. Remember, we prosecuted the J6ers - except, most important of all, the ringleader - and where are they all now?

I think their response would be derisive laughter.

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Color Me Skeptical's avatar

At some point, the MAGAs will lose power. And when that happens, the people doing the administration's dirty work need to know and fear that they will held accountable.

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Different drummer's avatar

Yes they will (lose power), and I hope it happens in my lifetime. But I think they believe they're invincible (which is part of what I think will destroy them). I honestly don't think there's any way they'll ever believe they're at risk. Yes, there were the Nuremberg Trials and other such tribunals historically; but considering T's decades of lawlessness, there have been pathetically few times he's been held accountable.

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Julie's avatar

That may be be true, but we can't control their response, we can only control what we do. We have to try many different things because I have to believe all of it together will somehow do something. Better to try and fail than do nothing.

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Different drummer's avatar

You may be right, but that's never been my approach. I NEVER threaten anything I can't back up if my bluff is called b/c I believe it makes me look even weaker if that happens. Bullies issue empty threats all the time; when I take a stand on something, I'm willing to go all the way to enforce it. I think people instinctively know when you're just trying to be intimidating w/out the power to carry thru.

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Julie's avatar

We see a perfect example of a weak and pathetic bully everyday in the President. To your point, we see him threaten and then back down regularly and everyone that deals with him knows thats what he'll do. I like what youre saying, I just don't know how we can guarantee an outcome 100% of the time.

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Different drummer's avatar

No, for sure we can't always guarantee an outcome. And the fact that he's clearly a bully yet so few people are willing to call his bluff is one of the most mind-boggling aspects to all of this. I've just lost all faith that the law / courts / justice will prevail this time. If it didn't happen w/ J6 or the classified docs, it's not going to.

The only way I don't completely lose my mind over it all is that I totally believe karma is unfailing: all the hate these people are sending out into the world will eventually have to be balanced, even if it's in another lifetime. I would love to live to see it, but I'm not holding my breath. :-(

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Dextersmom's avatar

You really think the Dems will take ‘26 and ‘28? You really think everything will just go back to normal? We are DONE, the experiment is over. It had a good run. We achieved civil rights for all people, albeit briefly. But it’s over. MAGA will not let a fair election of all things unseat its power. I’m not sure how they’ll do it, but they will not pack a box and walk away. I cried yesterday. Real tears.

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Deborah T's avatar

Only we never achieved civil rights for all people. Racism and inequality flourished nearly as much now as it did back when MLK had his dream. We never got to where people were judged by the content of their character.

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Tara's avatar

Maybe you’re right, but don’t let it go down without a fight is all I ask.

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Margaret Fisher SF Bay Area's avatar

I feel the angst and grief, and will keep feeling it. But I see myself as part of this experiment. It’s time for me to show up for democracy; to show how much I love it, and how I will not let it slip away. This shit show is a piece of it; fighting to keep it. We each may not do this perfectly but we will do it and keep doing it. I am so grateful for those who are fighting this too. For those Dems who are going down to El Salvador. For those of us waving signs and hoisting banners and making calls. Join SwingLeft or Indivisble or HandsOff.org. It helps to keep going with others.

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Deborah T's avatar

I get “Webpage not available” for HandsOff.org.

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Margaret Fisher SF Bay Area's avatar

Because I was way wrong! It’s https://handsoff2025.com/

Sorry for the misdirection!

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Deborah T's avatar

I get “Page not found” for HandsOff.org.

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ThisIsNotNormal's avatar

You can find it here. https://www.mobilize.us/handsoff

It was organized by Mobilize.US. They are the group that aggregated the various movements to come together.

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Color Me Skeptical's avatar

It won't return to status quo ante. But the pendulum will shift. And when that happens we need to have a plan to create something new. (And to be clear, it is not the old Constitution. It needs to be something that is actually more responsive to the demos.)

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Anne B's avatar

I agree, I agree.

And we may well end up looking like Russia, but if we do, I will feel better if I have tried to stop the authoritarianism and I want to be prepared with a clear understanding so that I am not paralyzed. I feel ready to resist until democracy returns (in better shape as you say) or until I'm gone.

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Migs's avatar

“The Democrat leadership needs to start threatening indictments. Maybe some of the ICE agents and low level government officials start having second thoughts.”

Why would anyone believe this? I am asking seriously? What dem that has presidential aspirations would actually say this? It’s not that I don’t see the logic in it, I do. I just don’t think it (1) will do anything because they won’t believe it and (2) I don’t see how any of the presidential possibilities would say it and/or do it.

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Tara's avatar

Start demanding your Democratic leadership show courage! Call or email them every day. All this doomsaying is pathetic.

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Migs's avatar

I don’t understand. Courage to do what? They are doing things, literally all the time. What do you want them to do that they are not doing? They are on all the news networks talking about all the crazy shit republicans. What else do you want them to do, seriously? They have no power.

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Tara's avatar

I’m not sure who my comment was directed to since I made several responses to different people. I just saw a lot of negativity and resignation. I wasn’t saying our democratic representatives aren’t doing anything, but some of them could do more and are not. Some are being pretty quiet. We could use some more AOC’s, Bernie’s, VanHollen’s, and Booker’s.

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Migs's avatar

I hear you but what exactly would you like them to do. That has been the constant problem I find from people’s advice for dem electeds. “Do something!!” They are doing something. The problem is it doesn’t work well and is often not ever covered by the media

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Greg WF's avatar

Plus, his majesty can blanket pardon his goon squad. The pardon power has to go when we rebuild after what’s coming.

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Migs's avatar

I mean I get doing it if you think it’s good politics. I disagree but the likelihood I’m wrong is equal to the likelihood I’m right. The one thing I do know is it will make zero difference unless it is said by the Dem nominee and even then I judge it to be low likelihood outcome.

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Nick's avatar

I don't need a POTUS candidate to say it. Let Jeffries say it. Murphy. I don't care.

You are an ICE agent and the Dems are saying that they are going to investigate/indict you, I guarantee that will give you pause or concern.

My hope is that Trump would come out and say that he will pardon the ICE agents and government officials that are following kidnapping/deportation orders. Let Trump come out and say what the administration is doing is illegal and would require a pardon(s).

Last point, if the Dems don't believe it, bluff it. We need to start punching back.

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Migs's avatar

You do realize that dem legislators can’t prosecute people right? That’s an executive function. That’s like Republican legislators (Jim Jordan and co DID do this) threatening garland. He didn’t care because they can’t actually follow through on the threat. The threat is meaningless

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Nick's avatar

Yes, I do.

The threat to Bondi, Rubio etc. may be meaningless but it won't be meaningless to the foot soldiers.

Jeffries saying that we will begin investigations in January 2027 on the ICE Agents and government officials that assisted in the kidnappings will unnerve folks.

What would you suggest the Dems do?

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Migs's avatar

Focus on issues that are popular. Unfortunately for America what Trump is doing on immigration is popular.

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Nick's avatar

New Quinnipiac Poll: More Americans now disapprove of Trump on immigration by 50% to 45% (including 51% independents)

MAJORITY of Americans now disapprove of Trump on deportations by 53% to 42% poll.qu.edu/poll-release...

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Migs's avatar

Sure after 3 months of being popular. Here is the thing: they got 500 other issues that he is DEEPLY unpopular on. Some he is underwater by 50 points. Focus there

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Sumi Ink 🇨🇦's avatar

I really doubt he gives a flying f**k.

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Greg Hanson's avatar

Trump may not care personally. But some GOP legislators might - the Don Bacons and David Valadaos who think they might like another term in Congress, but are watching their own approval ratings sink with Trump's. You need his approval ratings to go down to get the rats to abandon the sinking ship.

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Nick's avatar

It’s not really though. His approval on immigration is now under water.

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Migs's avatar

Seriously, what is the difference between you threatening this and Jefferies? You both can’t actually FOLLOW through on the threat. It’s completely meaningless.

People aren’t this stupid. I get it you want them to say it because it shows they are fighting. That I get. The idea that it would do anything or stop any action is where I couldn’t disagree more. A meaningless threat is exactly that…a meaningless threat. It’s like AOC saying we are going to invade Israel if they don’t stop bombing gaza. Sure she could say this and Israel would completely ignore it because once again it’s a threat from a person who can’t do what they are threading. Pointless in changing actions. Could be good politics, who knows but pointless in changing anything.

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Nick's avatar

Because in 27 Jeffries can launch an investigation and issue recommendations to the new AG in 29. I am limited to having pointless arguments on the internet.

Maybe nothing happens. But Jeffries should share what 2027 looks like when the Dems take back control of the House.

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Migs's avatar

Jefferies literally said yesterday that the congress if controlled by dems would investigate this. He is actually doing what he can not threatening what he can’t do. That is my whole point!!!!

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Chuck Aurora's avatar

The foot soldiers know exactly how low the risk is to them. As long as they do the boss' bidding and kiss the ring they are perfectly safe in "legal" terms. In the unlikely event that free and fair elections happen and take away MAGA political control, they will have pardons.

Their main worry would be what happens if they encounter armed resistance.

What should Dems do? Start resisting. It may be too late.

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Deborah T's avatar

What would this resisting be? How would it look? What would we do?

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Chuck Aurora's avatar

I wish I knew! I think we will have to draw on the experiences of other countries which have beaten totalitarian rule.

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Blanche Axton's avatar

Plus.....I'm not convinced there will BE elections in 26....or that if there are, the results will be accepted

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Marie's avatar

I very much share your concerns. Look what is happening in North (edit: South replaced with North) Carolina with the results of the Nov 2024 election for State Supreme Court Judge. And if and when the Republicans are finally successful in overturning the Democrat Allison Riggs's win (established by two recounts now), they plan - or so pro-Democracy political commenters are saying anyway - to replicate their tactics nationwide.

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Color Me Skeptical's avatar

I think you mean North Carolina.

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Marie's avatar

Thank-you. I edited. Wish I knew how to do a strike-through in the comments.

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Nick's avatar

Sure. But I am operating under the assumption that we will have free and fair elections in 26 but that may be naive. Time will tell.

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Mark's avatar

I hate to say it, but the masses revolting is likely to be the only thing that takes the wheels off the clowncar and it'll take some serious luck for that to be successful. This tradewar and economic recession might do it, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

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Blanche Axton's avatar

I hope so.

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