Thomas Joscelyn, senior fellow at Just Security, joins Bill Kristol to discuss Trump's authoritarian impulses, how far he will go and if we can stop them.
I am very aware of all the terrible authoritarian actions the Trump Regime has taken. We are living in an authoritarian Police State. While I appreciated Mr Joscelyn confirming all this horror for me, I also needed to hear his recommendations for what we can do about it. This left me feeling quite hopeless. Bill Kristol also sounded defeated and resigned. It’s not enough just to document our descent into authoritarianism. What are the ways we can fight back?
Waiting until the Democrats do more. Waiting until the Republicans do more. Waiting until it gets worse - for my neighbors? My family? Me?
Well, after dedicating years to speaking up, protesting and taking action I’m gonna go about living my life the best I can, encourage others, and yes, vote - because it’s the right thing to do. A person of faith, I’m gonna hope the fever breaks and folks stop blaming and start re-imagining how we can move forward.
Facing voter suppression - purging voter rolls, throwing out legitimate ballots on false claims of fraud, closing polling stations, etcetera - is a necessary part of this.
It has been well-documented. Until we face this messy and intractable reality and discuss ways to overcome it,
if not end it, we’re gonna keep heading down that big gilded escalator toward full-fledged, entrenched authoritarian rule.
Been re-reading King's Letter From a Birmingham Jail" lately. This portion pops out at me because it is the same problem within the GOP:
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice..."
It is the enabling moderate within the GOP whom I am most disappointed with. The Tillis, Bacon, Murkoski, Collins types. These are the folks who if they shared the convictions of courage could put a roadblock up to the MAGA movement's worst impulses and rein them in, but because they succumb to the fear of becoming pariahs inside of a political movement who they themselves don't align with they cave every time and enable the party's worst impulses. Their key positions on the edge of the party empower them with a unique ability to control the path forward for MAGA, but rather than wield their power to prevent harm they surrender their convictions to enable harm. That is not the hallmark of a "good person." That is the hallmark of a polite sellout.
and typical of authoritarian movements MAGA's biggest disdain isn't for Bernie or Elizabeth Warren, its for John McCain and Liz Cheney, Jeff Flake and Adam Kinsinger, even the most moderate critics from the right are the most hated.
Bill, Thank you for having in Tom on the show. His insights, commentary and analysis were illuminating. Your discussion was riveting. I have a few thoughts. When the Republicans in the Senate confirmed Hegseth, Bondi, Patel, RFK, Gabbard, Noem and even Rubio, they officially made this administration a dictatorship. They betrayed America and our the real traitors. No dictatorship can begin without the enablers. When I look back to just ten years ago, what we have witnessed would not only have been unthinkable but virtually impossible. It just drives me insane that literally half the country could not forsee what was coming. The least they should have seen is the lies,greed and the hate. Voting for this a second time is unforgivable. The road ahead is fraught with danger. You were both right to say that people with some power and influence need to wake up and get serious. They must actively. join the resistance. I think Americans are going to get just one more chance to save this country. There can be no mistakes this time. The choice is freedom or anarchy.
Very informative. Tom is an excellent guest to have on.
However, Bill, you MUST get a better microphone. Or maybe you have one that I can't see on the screen which means you must get it closer to your mouth.
great discussion. Frightening but not shocking. I am most intrigued by the discussion of Noem’s propaganda ads being aired on NBC—what the hell?
I am firmly in the camp that believes things will get very very bad. I think trump will escalate ICE violence, lock up more prominent Dems, and kill some citizens in the streets. He will declare an insurrection and postpone midterms. There is a reason beyond self protection that all Republicans are actively supporting this. They are not afraid of losing seats. I want to know if democratic governors are actively engaging with their national guard troops to gauge their loyalty to the citizens of the country.
The Court’s permission to Trump to take control of the National Guard in CA was absolutely one of the most dangerous decisions allowing this authoritarian takeover. Add to that the 2 Supreme Court decisions that 1. Trump can send anyone he chooses to wherever he chooses including countries with torture and civil war, thru their shadow docket, makes the US a rogue country and removes any limit on Trump. 2. After 4 yrs of shutting down Biden at every turn with Nationwide Injunctions Trump’s Supreme Court NOW decides they may not stand. Removing any tool to rein in Trump’s imperial powers. So there are no more constraints on Trump of any kind. The Supreme Court is complicit. When the revolution comes, they ALL must be removed.
All these largely Latino cities in SE Los Angeles County canceling their 4th of July fireworks shows out of concern they’ll turn into ICE roundups. Let freedom ring.
I love William Kristol's voice, as in, I love hearing his thoughts, but I rarely can. Like 5 words out of 10 if I'm lucky and my imagination has to work overtime filling in the blanks. For the rest of The Bulwark I can hear fine, at around 58% volume and probably that loud only bc I am hard of hearing. For Mr. Kristol I have to turn it up to 100% volume AND turn on the closed captions and I still have trouble following. Closed captions are not available for your live shows so I'm SOL in those cases. When William Kristol is a guest, or has a guest, I can hear the other person just fine. Can the Bulwark please break out some dough and get Mr. Kristol a better sound set up? Much obliged.
D'lorah, every Saturday Jim Swift puts out a newsletter titled "Overtime." At the bottom of each newsletter he lists an email address for Bulwark tech support
and - - he states that if a reader has a question for Jim, to just reply to the Overtime newsletter. I would send you observations/complaints about Bill's audio to both parties and see what each side tells you.
I too am a fan of Bill, but this is a common complaint. I'm constantly adjusting the volume up and down. Also, I've noticed lately that most of the videos don't have CC, which is frustrating.
it’s not the audio. Bill talks fast and often drifts into parenthetical modifying explanations that he delivers in increasingly softer tones and more rapidly.
Thanks so much for bringing this up. I wondered if it was just me having a bit of difficulty hearing Bill clearly …. and I so want to hear everything he has to say!!!
Maybe a tad louder and slower delivery (and upgrade his mic???).
I am getting dozens of daily appeals for cash from candidates from across the US and the same from substack and podcasts wanting me to subscribe. What is the best use of money to create a coherent positive Democtatic message and turn over the GOP seats?
I subscribe to Daily Kos, because I can get a lot of information quickly that way.
The Bulwark is good for understanding the threat of the fascist Republicans, and possibly with turning over Republican seats, but it won't help with creating a coherent positive Democratic message.
I'd like to see the Democratic Party adopt a single, substantial goal that ties everything together. I suggest that goal be to double the wealth of workers over the next generation. This is a big goal that can tie together all the smaller planks of the Democratic platform, and it would be extremely beneficial to the country.
But it could be something else, as long as it is huge and unifying.
My takeaway: of course they're strategically leveraging xenophobic hate to fuel, energize and fund mass deportations. But this performative exercise in mass deportation of brown people is not so much the objective as a means for creating the infrastructure for autocratic authoritarian rule. The deportations are about building the muscle needed to achieve what has always been the goal. Since the an extremely symbolic descent down the golden escalator: he cometh from heaven to rule.
Totally agree that the mass deportations are the justification for turning us into a Police State. But I also think the Trump Regime is truly racist and believes it is their God given right to brutalize brown people and put them in cages for no other reason than their ethnicity.
Good show, Bill and Tom Joscelyn. It's so hard to understand why anyone would not be horrified at what this regime is doing. Why are all these republican senators on board with no due process with these mass deportations? How are they ok with Stephen Miller? Is this just so they won't lose an election? No conscience, no morality, no humanity. JFC
As someone above mentioned, it would take only a handful of courageous Republicans to join Democrats and stop this. But they don’t. Yes, they are cowards who care more about maintaining their own power than the good of the country. But listening to all the GOP Senators lie over and over to the American people, denying the destructive damage of their War on America Bill: gutting healthcare & food assistance, raping our planet, destroying the earth, adding trillions to the debt, and funding Trump’s Police State, they clearly believe in Trump’s mission as well. Republicans truly want to destroy our democracy and install an authoritarian ruler. It’s not just cowardice. They are willing and enthusiastic collaborators.
Yes. See Thom Tillis announce today that he’s decided not to run for reelection since Trump threatened to primary him if he voted against the BBB, which he did. Vote against Trump and you lose your next election. So either spend a lot of money to lose an election or drop out of the election.
I think a lot of them were always racists. They were at least racist enough that the blatant racism of the party didn't bother them.
There's also the threats against them. But for a lot of them, they are going to lose the general election, anyway. That's not as true of Senators, but frankly, many of them are at risk, too.
So, it's bad either way.
For many of them, they'd be better to leave the Republican Party. They could become independents. That would save them the primary, and they might be better off for the general as an independent.
ICE Agents work for us, the taxpayers. They should, by law, be able to be identified by face and government issued identification that is clearly displayed.
Is that too much to ask of our government? Apparently for this administration, yes.
This was REALLY good Bill, I listen/watch you on Sundays and read you during the week. This guest was so insightful and has a tremendous amount of for thought that it was a ‘delight’ to listen to!! I’d love more of this kind of projection into what we might need to prepare for— when most of us didn’t think we’d be here this fast!! What is probably next?!
We need someone with vision. In 2020, Dems agreed we needed a stable safe figure to beat Trump and restore normalcy. Biden did that. Unfortunately, that wasn’t enough to satisfy a majority of voters. They wanted the ranting lunatic. Dems need the fire and rhetoric of Bernie Sanders in a younger package.
I see what you are saying and perhaps you are right. I think we need election security controls first because I've read there is cause to believe that some of the voting machine's were hacked. However, a candidate that is too young and to radical will slice off a portion of the middle that we want. We need someone smart and experienced who looks way more capable to actually govern than Trump or Vance. Bashear, Shapiro, or Pritzker are all competent, experienced, and bold enough to stand up to Trump.
I am very aware of all the terrible authoritarian actions the Trump Regime has taken. We are living in an authoritarian Police State. While I appreciated Mr Joscelyn confirming all this horror for me, I also needed to hear his recommendations for what we can do about it. This left me feeling quite hopeless. Bill Kristol also sounded defeated and resigned. It’s not enough just to document our descent into authoritarianism. What are the ways we can fight back?
Waiting until the Democrats do more. Waiting until the Republicans do more. Waiting until it gets worse - for my neighbors? My family? Me?
Well, after dedicating years to speaking up, protesting and taking action I’m gonna go about living my life the best I can, encourage others, and yes, vote - because it’s the right thing to do. A person of faith, I’m gonna hope the fever breaks and folks stop blaming and start re-imagining how we can move forward.
Facing voter suppression - purging voter rolls, throwing out legitimate ballots on false claims of fraud, closing polling stations, etcetera - is a necessary part of this.
It has been well-documented. Until we face this messy and intractable reality and discuss ways to overcome it,
if not end it, we’re gonna keep heading down that big gilded escalator toward full-fledged, entrenched authoritarian rule.
Been re-reading King's Letter From a Birmingham Jail" lately. This portion pops out at me because it is the same problem within the GOP:
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice..."
It is the enabling moderate within the GOP whom I am most disappointed with. The Tillis, Bacon, Murkoski, Collins types. These are the folks who if they shared the convictions of courage could put a roadblock up to the MAGA movement's worst impulses and rein them in, but because they succumb to the fear of becoming pariahs inside of a political movement who they themselves don't align with they cave every time and enable the party's worst impulses. Their key positions on the edge of the party empower them with a unique ability to control the path forward for MAGA, but rather than wield their power to prevent harm they surrender their convictions to enable harm. That is not the hallmark of a "good person." That is the hallmark of a polite sellout.
and typical of authoritarian movements MAGA's biggest disdain isn't for Bernie or Elizabeth Warren, its for John McCain and Liz Cheney, Jeff Flake and Adam Kinsinger, even the most moderate critics from the right are the most hated.
Bill, Thank you for having in Tom on the show. His insights, commentary and analysis were illuminating. Your discussion was riveting. I have a few thoughts. When the Republicans in the Senate confirmed Hegseth, Bondi, Patel, RFK, Gabbard, Noem and even Rubio, they officially made this administration a dictatorship. They betrayed America and our the real traitors. No dictatorship can begin without the enablers. When I look back to just ten years ago, what we have witnessed would not only have been unthinkable but virtually impossible. It just drives me insane that literally half the country could not forsee what was coming. The least they should have seen is the lies,greed and the hate. Voting for this a second time is unforgivable. The road ahead is fraught with danger. You were both right to say that people with some power and influence need to wake up and get serious. They must actively. join the resistance. I think Americans are going to get just one more chance to save this country. There can be no mistakes this time. The choice is freedom or anarchy.
Great episode.
Very informative. Tom is an excellent guest to have on.
However, Bill, you MUST get a better microphone. Or maybe you have one that I can't see on the screen which means you must get it closer to your mouth.
Make it happen.
Yes, Bill's microphone comes off kind of garbled at times.
great discussion. Frightening but not shocking. I am most intrigued by the discussion of Noem’s propaganda ads being aired on NBC—what the hell?
I am firmly in the camp that believes things will get very very bad. I think trump will escalate ICE violence, lock up more prominent Dems, and kill some citizens in the streets. He will declare an insurrection and postpone midterms. There is a reason beyond self protection that all Republicans are actively supporting this. They are not afraid of losing seats. I want to know if democratic governors are actively engaging with their national guard troops to gauge their loyalty to the citizens of the country.
The Court’s permission to Trump to take control of the National Guard in CA was absolutely one of the most dangerous decisions allowing this authoritarian takeover. Add to that the 2 Supreme Court decisions that 1. Trump can send anyone he chooses to wherever he chooses including countries with torture and civil war, thru their shadow docket, makes the US a rogue country and removes any limit on Trump. 2. After 4 yrs of shutting down Biden at every turn with Nationwide Injunctions Trump’s Supreme Court NOW decides they may not stand. Removing any tool to rein in Trump’s imperial powers. So there are no more constraints on Trump of any kind. The Supreme Court is complicit. When the revolution comes, they ALL must be removed.
Criminal Trump is more dangerous than any person this crew has deported.
Speaking of the 4th of July, the LATimes ran an important but largely overlooked story Friday night: “Fear of immigration raids force the cancellation of several July festivities in Los Angeles.” https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-06-27/fear-of-immigration-raids-force-the-cancellation-of-several-july-festivities-in-los-angeles
All these largely Latino cities in SE Los Angeles County canceling their 4th of July fireworks shows out of concern they’ll turn into ICE roundups. Let freedom ring.
Reading the comments I am SO bummed I couldn't watch this show. A transcript would be great.
At least closed captions.
I love William Kristol's voice, as in, I love hearing his thoughts, but I rarely can. Like 5 words out of 10 if I'm lucky and my imagination has to work overtime filling in the blanks. For the rest of The Bulwark I can hear fine, at around 58% volume and probably that loud only bc I am hard of hearing. For Mr. Kristol I have to turn it up to 100% volume AND turn on the closed captions and I still have trouble following. Closed captions are not available for your live shows so I'm SOL in those cases. When William Kristol is a guest, or has a guest, I can hear the other person just fine. Can the Bulwark please break out some dough and get Mr. Kristol a better sound set up? Much obliged.
D'lorah, every Saturday Jim Swift puts out a newsletter titled "Overtime." At the bottom of each newsletter he lists an email address for Bulwark tech support
and - - he states that if a reader has a question for Jim, to just reply to the Overtime newsletter. I would send you observations/complaints about Bill's audio to both parties and see what each side tells you.
I too am a fan of Bill, but this is a common complaint. I'm constantly adjusting the volume up and down. Also, I've noticed lately that most of the videos don't have CC, which is frustrating.
Thanks for raising the issue, I have the same problem with the audio quality of Bill's voice.
it’s not the audio. Bill talks fast and often drifts into parenthetical modifying explanations that he delivers in increasingly softer tones and more rapidly.
Thanks so much for bringing this up. I wondered if it was just me having a bit of difficulty hearing Bill clearly …. and I so want to hear everything he has to say!!!
Maybe a tad louder and slower delivery (and upgrade his mic???).
I am getting dozens of daily appeals for cash from candidates from across the US and the same from substack and podcasts wanting me to subscribe. What is the best use of money to create a coherent positive Democtatic message and turn over the GOP seats?
I subscribe to Daily Kos, because I can get a lot of information quickly that way.
The Bulwark is good for understanding the threat of the fascist Republicans, and possibly with turning over Republican seats, but it won't help with creating a coherent positive Democratic message.
I'd like to see the Democratic Party adopt a single, substantial goal that ties everything together. I suggest that goal be to double the wealth of workers over the next generation. This is a big goal that can tie together all the smaller planks of the Democratic platform, and it would be extremely beneficial to the country.
But it could be something else, as long as it is huge and unifying.
My takeaway: of course they're strategically leveraging xenophobic hate to fuel, energize and fund mass deportations. But this performative exercise in mass deportation of brown people is not so much the objective as a means for creating the infrastructure for autocratic authoritarian rule. The deportations are about building the muscle needed to achieve what has always been the goal. Since the an extremely symbolic descent down the golden escalator: he cometh from heaven to rule.
Totally agree that the mass deportations are the justification for turning us into a Police State. But I also think the Trump Regime is truly racist and believes it is their God given right to brutalize brown people and put them in cages for no other reason than their ethnicity.
Good show, Bill and Tom Joscelyn. It's so hard to understand why anyone would not be horrified at what this regime is doing. Why are all these republican senators on board with no due process with these mass deportations? How are they ok with Stephen Miller? Is this just so they won't lose an election? No conscience, no morality, no humanity. JFC
As someone above mentioned, it would take only a handful of courageous Republicans to join Democrats and stop this. But they don’t. Yes, they are cowards who care more about maintaining their own power than the good of the country. But listening to all the GOP Senators lie over and over to the American people, denying the destructive damage of their War on America Bill: gutting healthcare & food assistance, raping our planet, destroying the earth, adding trillions to the debt, and funding Trump’s Police State, they clearly believe in Trump’s mission as well. Republicans truly want to destroy our democracy and install an authoritarian ruler. It’s not just cowardice. They are willing and enthusiastic collaborators.
“ Is this just so they won't lose an election? ”
Yes. See Thom Tillis announce today that he’s decided not to run for reelection since Trump threatened to primary him if he voted against the BBB, which he did. Vote against Trump and you lose your next election. So either spend a lot of money to lose an election or drop out of the election.
I think a lot of them were always racists. They were at least racist enough that the blatant racism of the party didn't bother them.
There's also the threats against them. But for a lot of them, they are going to lose the general election, anyway. That's not as true of Senators, but frankly, many of them are at risk, too.
So, it's bad either way.
For many of them, they'd be better to leave the Republican Party. They could become independents. That would save them the primary, and they might be better off for the general as an independent.
ICE Agents work for us, the taxpayers. They should, by law, be able to be identified by face and government issued identification that is clearly displayed.
Is that too much to ask of our government? Apparently for this administration, yes.
This was REALLY good Bill, I listen/watch you on Sundays and read you during the week. This guest was so insightful and has a tremendous amount of for thought that it was a ‘delight’ to listen to!! I’d love more of this kind of projection into what we might need to prepare for— when most of us didn’t think we’d be here this fast!! What is probably next?!
Pritzkers fine. I also like the politics of Andy Bashear. And he's the governor of a Red state so I think he'd have a better chance getting elected.
We need someone with vision. In 2020, Dems agreed we needed a stable safe figure to beat Trump and restore normalcy. Biden did that. Unfortunately, that wasn’t enough to satisfy a majority of voters. They wanted the ranting lunatic. Dems need the fire and rhetoric of Bernie Sanders in a younger package.
I see what you are saying and perhaps you are right. I think we need election security controls first because I've read there is cause to believe that some of the voting machine's were hacked. However, a candidate that is too young and to radical will slice off a portion of the middle that we want. We need someone smart and experienced who looks way more capable to actually govern than Trump or Vance. Bashear, Shapiro, or Pritzker are all competent, experienced, and bold enough to stand up to Trump.
We need more than competent. We need 🔥🔥
Pritzker has brought that. But can he bring the “riz?”