Thomas Joscelyn, senior fellow at Just Security, joins Bill Kristol to discuss Trump's authoritarian impulses, how far he will go and if we can stop them.
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I am very aware of all the terrible authoritarian actions the Trump Regime has taken. We are living in an authoritarian Police State. While I appreciated Mr Joscelyn confirming all this horror for me, I also needed to hear his recommendations for what we can do about it. This left me feeling quite hopeless. Bill Kristol also sounded defeated and resigned. It’s not enough just to document our descent into authoritarianism. What are the ways we can fight back?
Waiting until the Democrats do more. Waiting until the Republicans do more. Waiting until it gets worse - for my neighbors? My family? Me?
Well, after dedicating years to speaking up, protesting and taking action I’m gonna go about living my life the best I can, encourage others, and yes, vote - because it’s the right thing to do. A person of faith, I’m gonna hope the fever breaks and folks stop blaming and start re-imagining how we can move forward.
Facing voter suppression - purging voter rolls, throwing out legitimate ballots on false claims of fraud, closing polling stations, etcetera - is a necessary part of this.
It has been well-documented. Until we face this messy and intractable reality and discuss ways to overcome it,
if not end it, we’re gonna keep heading down that big gilded escalator toward full-fledged, entrenched authoritarian rule.
Been re-reading King's Letter From a Birmingham Jail" lately. This portion pops out at me because it is the same problem within the GOP:
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizens Councillor or the Ku Klux Klanner but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice..."
It is the enabling moderate within the GOP whom I am most disappointed with. The Tillis, Bacon, Murkoski, Collins types. These are the folks who if they shared the convictions of courage could put a roadblock up to the MAGA movement's worst impulses and rein them in, but because they succumb to the fear of becoming pariahs inside of a political movement who they themselves don't align with they cave every time and enable the party's worst impulses. Their key positions on the edge of the party empower them with a unique ability to control the path forward for MAGA, but rather than wield their power to prevent harm they surrender their convictions to enable harm. That is not the hallmark of a "good person." That is the hallmark of a polite sellout.
and typical of authoritarian movements MAGA's biggest disdain isn't for Bernie or Elizabeth Warren, its for John McCain and Liz Cheney, Jeff Flake and Adam Kinsinger, even the most moderate critics from the right are the most hated.
Bill, Thank you for having in Tom on the show. His insights, commentary and analysis were illuminating. Your discussion was riveting. I have a few thoughts. When the Republicans in the Senate confirmed Hegseth, Bondi, Patel, RFK, Gabbard, Noem and even Rubio, they officially made this administration a dictatorship. They betrayed America and our the real traitors. No dictatorship can begin without the enablers. When I look back to just ten years ago, what we have witnessed would not only have been unthinkable but virtually impossible. It just drives me insane that literally half the country could not forsee what was coming. The least they should have seen is the lies,greed and the hate. Voting for this a second time is unforgivable. The road ahead is fraught with danger. You were both right to say that people with some power and influence need to wake up and get serious. They must actively. join the resistance. I think Americans are going to get just one more chance to save this country. There can be no mistakes this time. The choice is freedom or anarchy.
Great episode.
Very informative. Tom is an excellent guest to have on.
However, Bill, you MUST get a better microphone. Or maybe you have one that I can't see on the screen which means you must get it closer to your mouth.
Make it happen.
Yes, Bill's microphone comes off kind of garbled at times.
great discussion. Frightening but not shocking. I am most intrigued by the discussion of Noem’s propaganda ads being aired on NBC—what the hell?
I am firmly in the camp that believes things will get very very bad. I think trump will escalate ICE violence, lock up more prominent Dems, and kill some citizens in the streets. He will declare an insurrection and postpone midterms. There is a reason beyond self protection that all Republicans are actively supporting this. They are not afraid of losing seats. I want to know if democratic governors are actively engaging with their national guard troops to gauge their loyalty to the citizens of the country.
The Court’s permission to Trump to take control of the National Guard in CA was absolutely one of the most dangerous decisions allowing this authoritarian takeover. Add to that the 2 Supreme Court decisions that 1. Trump can send anyone he chooses to wherever he chooses including countries with torture and civil war, thru their shadow docket, makes the US a rogue country and removes any limit on Trump. 2. After 4 yrs of shutting down Biden at every turn with Nationwide Injunctions Trump’s Supreme Court NOW decides they may not stand. Removing any tool to rein in Trump’s imperial powers. So there are no more constraints on Trump of any kind. The Supreme Court is complicit. When the revolution comes, they ALL must be removed.
Criminal Trump is more dangerous than any person this crew has deported.
Speaking of the 4th of July, the LATimes ran an important but largely overlooked story Friday night: “Fear of immigration raids force the cancellation of several July festivities in Los Angeles.” https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2025-06-27/fear-of-immigration-raids-force-the-cancellation-of-several-july-festivities-in-los-angeles
All these largely Latino cities in SE Los Angeles County canceling their 4th of July fireworks shows out of concern they’ll turn into ICE roundups. Let freedom ring.
Reading the comments I am SO bummed I couldn't watch this show. A transcript would be great.
At least closed captions.
I love William Kristol's voice, as in, I love hearing his thoughts, but I rarely can. Like 5 words out of 10 if I'm lucky and my imagination has to work overtime filling in the blanks. For the rest of The Bulwark I can hear fine, at around 58% volume and probably that loud only bc I am hard of hearing. For Mr. Kristol I have to turn it up to 100% volume AND turn on the closed captions and I still have trouble following. Closed captions are not available for your live shows so I'm SOL in those cases. When William Kristol is a guest, or has a guest, I can hear the other person just fine. Can the Bulwark please break out some dough and get Mr. Kristol a better sound set up? Much obliged.
D'lorah, every Saturday Jim Swift puts out a newsletter titled "Overtime." At the bottom of each newsletter he lists an email address for Bulwark tech support
and - - he states that if a reader has a question for Jim, to just reply to the Overtime newsletter. I would send you observations/complaints about Bill's audio to both parties and see what each side tells you.
I too am a fan of Bill, but this is a common complaint. I'm constantly adjusting the volume up and down. Also, I've noticed lately that most of the videos don't have CC, which is frustrating.
Thanks for raising the issue, I have the same problem with the audio quality of Bill's voice.
it’s not the audio. Bill talks fast and often drifts into parenthetical modifying explanations that he delivers in increasingly softer tones and more rapidly.
Thanks so much for bringing this up. I wondered if it was just me having a bit of difficulty hearing Bill clearly …. and I so want to hear everything he has to say!!!
Maybe a tad louder and slower delivery (and upgrade his mic???).
I am getting dozens of daily appeals for cash from candidates from across the US and the same from substack and podcasts wanting me to subscribe. What is the best use of money to create a coherent positive Democtatic message and turn over the GOP seats?
I subscribe to Daily Kos, because I can get a lot of information quickly that way.
The Bulwark is good for understanding the threat of the fascist Republicans, and possibly with turning over Republican seats, but it won't help with creating a coherent positive Democratic message.
I'd like to see the Democratic Party adopt a single, substantial goal that ties everything together. I suggest that goal be to double the wealth of workers over the next generation. This is a big goal that can tie together all the smaller planks of the Democratic platform, and it would be extremely beneficial to the country.
But it could be something else, as long as it is huge and unifying.
My takeaway: of course they're strategically leveraging xenophobic hate to fuel, energize and fund mass deportations. But this performative exercise in mass deportation of brown people is not so much the objective as a means for creating the infrastructure for autocratic authoritarian rule. The deportations are about building the muscle needed to achieve what has always been the goal. Since the an extremely symbolic descent down the golden escalator: he cometh from heaven to rule.
Totally agree that the mass deportations are the justification for turning us into a Police State. But I also think the Trump Regime is truly racist and believes it is their God given right to brutalize brown people and put them in cages for no other reason than their ethnicity.
Good show, Bill and Tom Joscelyn. It's so hard to understand why anyone would not be horrified at what this regime is doing. Why are all these republican senators on board with no due process with these mass deportations? How are they ok with Stephen Miller? Is this just so they won't lose an election? No conscience, no morality, no humanity. JFC
As someone above mentioned, it would take only a handful of courageous Republicans to join Democrats and stop this. But they don’t. Yes, they are cowards who care more about maintaining their own power than the good of the country. But listening to all the GOP Senators lie over and over to the American people, denying the destructive damage of their War on America Bill: gutting healthcare & food assistance, raping our planet, destroying the earth, adding trillions to the debt, and funding Trump’s Police State, they clearly believe in Trump’s mission as well. Republicans truly want to destroy our democracy and install an authoritarian ruler. It’s not just cowardice. They are willing and enthusiastic collaborators.
“ Is this just so they won't lose an election? ”
Yes. See Thom Tillis announce today that he’s decided not to run for reelection since Trump threatened to primary him if he voted against the BBB, which he did. Vote against Trump and you lose your next election. So either spend a lot of money to lose an election or drop out of the election.
I think a lot of them were always racists. They were at least racist enough that the blatant racism of the party didn't bother them.
There's also the threats against them. But for a lot of them, they are going to lose the general election, anyway. That's not as true of Senators, but frankly, many of them are at risk, too.
So, it's bad either way.
For many of them, they'd be better to leave the Republican Party. They could become independents. That would save them the primary, and they might be better off for the general as an independent.
ICE Agents work for us, the taxpayers. They should, by law, be able to be identified by face and government issued identification that is clearly displayed.
Is that too much to ask of our government? Apparently for this administration, yes.
This was REALLY good Bill, I listen/watch you on Sundays and read you during the week. This guest was so insightful and has a tremendous amount of for thought that it was a ‘delight’ to listen to!! I’d love more of this kind of projection into what we might need to prepare for— when most of us didn’t think we’d be here this fast!! What is probably next?!
Pritzkers fine. I also like the politics of Andy Bashear. And he's the governor of a Red state so I think he'd have a better chance getting elected.
We need someone with vision. In 2020, Dems agreed we needed a stable safe figure to beat Trump and restore normalcy. Biden did that. Unfortunately, that wasn’t enough to satisfy a majority of voters. They wanted the ranting lunatic. Dems need the fire and rhetoric of Bernie Sanders in a younger package.
I see what you are saying and perhaps you are right. I think we need election security controls first because I've read there is cause to believe that some of the voting machine's were hacked. However, a candidate that is too young and to radical will slice off a portion of the middle that we want. We need someone smart and experienced who looks way more capable to actually govern than Trump or Vance. Bashear, Shapiro, or Pritzker are all competent, experienced, and bold enough to stand up to Trump.
We need more than competent. We need 🔥🔥
Pritzker has brought that. But can he bring the “riz?”
Mr. KRISTOL.
As you likely know, the prison camp at alligator alley will open this week. Do you realize how at risk the prisoners are going to be if a hurricane hits Florida? Its a death sentence for those folks. Can you bring attention to this? Thank you.
Fascinating, and very chilling. On this trajectory, are there going to be 2026 elections?
Yes, absolutely, there will be elections next year. We need to insist on them, and we should be fully involved to make sure they are on the level.
I refuse to give the fascists any ground on this issue.
The argument that JVL has been making is that, yes, there will be elections, but if the level of voter suppression and related chicanery required to keep Republicans from losing isn't sufficient, then the courts, and especially SCOTUS, will simply nullify anything a Democrat Executive Branch or Legislature might attempt to advance.
They can try that, but I don't see any reason for Democrats to have any restraint. Every tool the courts gave the Trump people, Democrats should use to fight back. This isn't a game. Politics is war by other means. It is a life-and-death issue, as anyone on Medicaid can tell you right now.
The best outcome is for Democrats to have overwhelming victories next year. So, we should be organizing and campaigning right now as if the election were tomorrow.
There are a handful of GOP afraid to vote their conscience. Something the Dems could push: start publicizing the threats to the Congress and judges. The best medicine for sickness is to place it in the sun. Post them online and unmask the menacers, which flips the script and puts them in peril. Cockroaches always run for cover.Encourage transparency across party lines, so that those who disagree with Dear Leader can burst the bubble promoting Stephen Miller's fantasies. Also, start adding up the costs for the deportations and prisons, and report what they're spending on their agenda as opposed to what funding they're cutting to taxpayer's programs. Finally, pulling off ICE masks and filming their faces might scare a bunch of them off, kind of like the KKK hoods. Remember, the military parade flopped, and the NO KINGS protests were successful.
There have been over 400 threats against judges just so far this year, according to Judge Esther Salas (who had a son killed by a disgruntled litigant).
You can help by signing up for Speak Up for Justice, which is now having monthly broadcasts on Zoom.
The last one featured former Justice Anthony Kennedy and really good judges from other countries (Poland, Venezuela) talking about their experiences with authoritarian regimes. Look it up on the Web.
I believe their is another No Kings protest scheduled for July.
Thanks...I heard about that. Will sign up.
Republicans are corrupt and immoral hypocrits. Who knew?
What can we do to stop this? I'm sure there are people who don't care and some approve.
What about when these people start dying in their prisons?
And yet most of all the Blue states are more prosperous than all the red states.
Thanks, as always, for your public service. We are living in an age of public servants who look like they star on The Kardashians. At this point, if the Democrats and the lower courts don’t hold an extended general strike in recognition that their branches are no longer functioning, I’m not sure people will start paying enough attention. I’m not even sure an act that radical would wake our sleeping democracy. I pray for Andry everyday and cannot bear to think what is being done to him in our name.
How do the courts go on strike? If the Democratic senators and representatives went on strike, the Republicans would thrilled. They would lock out of the government.
Democrats should call for a general strike of all Executive Branch workers who aren't on active duty in the military. Give them permission. Set a date.
The Democratic Party should call for a strike of these workers until the regime starts treating them according to law and normal employment practices. No more dismissing people because they feel like it. Demand they show cause.
Make it hard for Trump and his gang to get anything done. He fancies himself a king. But without a kingdom, he's a nothing.
There's always the chance that he'd fire striking workers. They don't want the government to work and then they'd have the chance to hire only loyalists. There is precedent. Reagan fired the striking air traffic controllers.
It would have that risk. But the stakes seem to indicate much riskier gambles. I don’t pretend to have answers. Just searching for something other than paying attention. Worried that’s all.
RE: Trump's financials. That's ok. I'm sure he's paying taxes on all that income.
The next administration should seize all his assets. All the emoluments he's received belong to the American people.
They can give him back anything they later determine was legitimately his.
But I say, take it all, because he didn't put his assets in a blind trust when he entered office.
Gator Gitmo. This shit is horrific.
Tom Jocelyn is very impressive. I would like to hear more from him in ways we should be moving forward
Me too.
Yes, I agree.
How many ICE agents are Jan 6'ers?
In body or spirit? If you're talking about the latter, all of them. Certainly now. I think a fairly large percentage might have been commissioned as ICE. It did seem odd, that story about the sudden budgeting for $42,000 "bonuses" for ICE agents, because that sounds way more like a starting salary for these quasi-law enforcement agents who demonstrate no professionalism and next to no training.
J6 mercenaries is more like it.
Bill & Tom,
You talk about that even “the elite” of the Democratic Party aren’t taking DT as seriously as they should? I’m informing you that the 2 of you aren’t taking it as seriously as you should either. WE THE PEOPLE are way ahead of you, we know in our guts what they are doing & what they are going to do.!!! If you would read the comment section under the videos of the thugs kidnapping people, maybe you we see that WE get it. Why do you think we are so angry & disgusted with almost all of our elected Dems?
We understand that they are going to take away ALL rights from women. They ARE going to take away, not just abortion medication, but ALL forms of birth control except the old “calendar” method. They are pushing hard to codify fetal personhood, so that from the moment of fertilization, that single cell is equal to a fully birthed, breathing child. At least 5-6 states are already putting forth bills to charge women with murder for having an abortion. Why don’t the both of you read just a little bit of Jessica Valenti’s Substack “Abortion Every Day,” so that you can understand the subtle language the anti abortion people use to gradually normalize what they want to do.
WE understand that it’s not DT that we need to fear; it’s Stephen Miller, Russell Vought, Kevin Roberts, JD Vance, the Heritage Foundation, ADF, & the 6 hyper-religious & corrupt scotus injustices. DT is nothing more that an uneducated, mentally unstable, & rapidly deteriorating figurehead. A Trojan horse if you will.
WE know that the plan is to get rid of ALL POC, all LGBT persons, & this MAGA Murder Bill is definitely meant to kill off many of the poor & the disabled persons.
WE know that the plan is to destroy our democracy, to destroy the federal govt. We know that the entrenched Dems are not going to do anything to help us, the regular people, which is why we are so excited about Zohran Mamdani, Jasmine Crockett, Alexandria Ocasio Cortez, Deja Foxx, et al.
And yet, most of We the People still don't realise Trump will remain in office until he dies or is overthrown. We will not be given the opportunity to vote him out. That isn't how dictatorship work.
Sadly, I believe thats possible, or he'll run again and the voting machines will be hacked.
The Democrats would do something if they had control of the Congress. The three you mentioned get press because they are young and attractive and the press covers them but the Republicans laugh at them because they have no power. There are a quite of few with power who speak out and don"t get covered because they are serious, Pritzker, Newsom (threatened w/arrest) Bashear, Shapiro, Padilla,(who was thrown to the floor and handcuffed). We have to get out the vote an make sure the Dems win the house and the senate.
It's not the people I have problems with, it's the actions. Having control of Congress isn't essential for Democrats to fight back.
For example, they could put a bill forward that would require all agents of the federal government who make arrests to wear proper uniforms, with proper identification, and only based on a warrant signed by a judge. That bill could further require anyone detained to get contact with someone they know within a few hours of confinement and a court date within a couple days. And a lawyer, unless they already had one.
Once that bill is filed, a Democratic Senator could go onto the floor of the Senate and talk about that bill.
Sen. Booker was there over 24 hours. What, precisely, is stopping other Democrats from taking the ICE issue and spending 24 hours in the Senate speaking about it? (Other than the fact that most of them are old men.) What is stopping a Senator talking for a day? Followed by a second Senator speaking about it for the next 24 hours? And a third?
Same with a bill to provide Ukraine with substantial military aid. Put up a bill. Talk for a day. Then another day. Then another.
They have all the power they need to break through the media embargo on Democrats and reach the voters. So, where are they?
Sounds good, but it won't get to a vote. And the media will cover it on page 5 maybe. The press is owned by people want access to power.
They didn't cover Booker on page 5. It broke through the media blockade.
And, yes, it would get a vote. It will get a vote in November 2026.
I should note there are about three bills on how ICE should behave already in Congress. They need to gather them all up and make them complete. You can't fight something with nothing, but if you set a standard, you can compare their fascist activities with actual democratic process under the rule of law.
At least one or two voters will see the difference.
I recognize the Dems you mention, & out of all of them, the only one that I would be happy or excited to vote for for President is JB Pritzker.
I never intended to indicate the ones I called out have the power to run for President, but they are fighters that we desperately need & want in Congress. No, it has nothing to do with their looks for me; Bernie isn’t pretty or sexy, but I love him. I just no longer want to donate or volunteer for anyone who is way too tied to corporate money & who tiptoe around standing up for the marginalized people.
Pritzker has his own money. I'd vote him. His only handicap is he's Jewish and there is still antisemitism out there, unfortunately.
I still think he could win despite that. He’s not a Zionist & not an Islamophobe
I especially appreciate this episode and having Thomas Joscelyn as your guest.
The conspiracy aspect is absolutely a key aspect here, and it is one that all Americans need to address. It is based on the ability of people to tell lies in public.
But unfortunately, one of the tools of the conspiracists is to claim that everyone does it. They claim all politicians are liars and corrupt. They claim that Democrats lie, too. They claim that the news is just opinion, so you can pick the opinion you want, and if you don't like the news, you can call it "fake news" and ignore it.
We need stronger language on this and finer distinctions.
We should reserve the term "lie" for an intentional falsehood. This does not apply to getting something wrong where the actual intent was to be correct. By this standard, Donald Trump has told many lies. For example, his claim that Haitian immigrants were eating people's pets was false, he knew (or should have known) it was false, and he made it anyway with the intention of deceiving people. (He and JD Vance both promoted this lie, despite authorities in Springfield, OH, telling them there were no reports of this happening.)
This is not equivalent to statements that turn out to be false but where the person making the statement was attempting to tell the truth.
I think Trump's repeated lying in public has the effect of boosting conspiracy theories. If he can lie in public and get away with it, then the conspiracists can, too. They are taking advantage of the breakdown of media into personalized channels to bypass journalistic integrity. We need to insist on journalistic integrity even for blogs and podcasts.
The fascist Republicans are lying to the public. This is not normal for politicians. Everyone trying to influence public opinion strongly states that opinion. Simply making your strongest case is not lying. Republicans have now gone beyond that. This is partly motivated by the fact the Republican Party is a minority party. It caters to and benefits a minority of the public: white men. So, to maintain power, they have to lie enough to dupe people outside their core group into voting for them.
We need to clean up these lies. Lying is not honorable. We need to demand honor from our officeholders. It's a standard the liars can't meet, and it ought to eventually filter them all out of government.
And we should ban the phrase "both sides", because typically it is followed by a lie.
Rupert Murdich who owns Fox News is a fascist and the purpose of his media conglomerate is to brainwash the public into believing the fascists are right.
They have a lot of money. So we have to counter that money with thinking.
That's one reason I think we need need stronger language on this and finer distinctions. Just saying that Fox Fake News is a propaganda channel isn't enough. We need to rebrand them, so that the PUBLIC thinks of them as propaganda.
From your mouth to God's ears. The propaganda channel has brought attracting people to their message like flies to shit.
How do we even know that masked immigration agents aren't just vigilantes? Who are these guys?!
How many pardoned Jan 6ers are now ICE agents? Who are the people employed as ICE agents? What is their background? Would they pass a CORI?
If Democrats regain power, they have to use it. The filibuster has to go so laws can be passed to outlaw the corruption and graft and limit the power of the executive branch. Not to mention the prosecution of all the criminals in the regime.
That would be great but what happens when MAGA/the Repubs come back to power?
The filibuster needs to go regardless but if we refuse to exercise power in deference to archaic rules (not laws), then we again prove we are feckless to address the needs and concerns of the people and that itself will ensure a return of some sort of MAGA power. Our policies are overwhelmingly popular - paid family leave, child tax credit, increasing the minimum wage, etc. but because we haven't been able to follow through we have a huge chunk of the voting population who want to burn it all down. We need to prove government can be effective and that means updating the rules by which it operates. Simple majority rule should be fine. Now that works for confirming Supreme Court justices, why shouldn't it apply across the board?(one needed act would be changing a Supreme Court justice's term so it's not a lifetime appointment.) seems like we could live by majority rule and the pendulum will swing back-and-forth, depending on what the voting public decides.
The key question is what to do about this.
The first thing is to be campaigning now to get rid of every Republican in government. All future elections need to be dedicated to cleaning out the fascists until they are all gone. The Republican Party needs to reform, but that's probably beyond their capability at this time. Still, until they do, Republicans have to be turned out of office.
There also should be lawsuits and resistance for every illegal policy. There have been some, but where it the lawsuit that declares that only Congress has the right to determine which agencies there are and their budgets?
The Democrats will eventually take power. At that point, we need to fix the paths these fascists used to get power. We can go through Project 2025 and fix all of the methods they used to take power. That's the tax ahead of the next Democratic administration.
D's won't gain power if Trump manages to cancel or destroy free elections.
I don't think we should talk about that. If you are concerned about it, then I suggest you get involved in the election process, either as part of a Democratic campaign or as a part of the election system.
It is my intention to vote in the next election and for my vote to count. Anyone who wants to stop me is a traitor to the United States and our Constitution. They need to be defending themselves, not me.
*task ahead of...