The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with Trump being friends - even very close friends - with Epstein as long as he was not involved in the illegal activities. So why is he so desperate to deny or diminish the relationship unless he WAS involved? Either he’s guilty of wrongdoing or just so stupid he’s making himself appear guilty when he isn’t. And either is likely.
Agreed. I get that Trump would be embarrassed about that relationship, particularly if they were buddies. Who wouldn't be? Trump would hardly be the first person in the world to be shocked and horrified to learn about the awful behavior of someone in their orbit. Simply stating that fact, with any effort, would probably do 99% of the work. However, he's doing anything but that, and is instead deflecting, hiding, etc. This makes extending the benefit of the doubt to Trump difficult. Rather, it makes me think that Trump is personally adjacent to Epstein's actions. I'd venture, if not Trump directly abusing girls, he likely KNEW about Epstein's goings on and help facilitate it at various points, even if to simply turn a blind eye to the women "on the younger side" Epstein was bringing around.
What's with the current fixation on smut, which has sprouted like a mushroom on decomposing cowflop? Didn't that gaggle of "celibate," geriatric clerics who sanctified today's marriage laws, climb up Sinai with them, to get final verification to make them a Holy Sacrament? Ironically, the papal imprimatur opened the floodgates to schemes to flout them
Lastly, how about the Comstock Act, which triggered the anti-abortion movement, as well as spawn ed the parade of mind-manacled moralist bigots that continue to follow in its wake. It's long past time to "leave the dead bury their dead" and consign this smut to journalism's compost pile, then deal with the issues that affect the Republic's future.
Excellent discussion - thank-you!! The Bulwark has done significant work on the various elements of this saga of depravity and power and, for me, Bill has led the way. I have particularly valued his sensitivity to victims.
Ok, this is be the third time I’ve heard Maria Farmer’s account being presented incorrectly on The Bulwark. I know it’s not intentional, but it’s also important to get the facts straight:
Maria Farmer was NOT a minor. She was 25 at the time. Trump entered the room she was in and leered at her legs, causing her to feel uncomfortable. At that point, Epstein entered and told Trump “she’s not here for you.” The two men left the room and Maria overheard Trump say “I thought she was 16.”
The most important question to be asking about this encounter is: Which 16 year old girl did Epstein arrange “for him” to see and why? She’s out there and probably terrified to speak out publicly. By misrepresenting Farmer as being underage, you are omitting the most damning red flag in the story and failing to acknowledge the existence of a primary victim. That doesn’t mean that what happened to Farmer isn’t terrible or that she wasn’t a victim, but there was clearly more to it than just Trump being creepy and lecherous. Please make sure you correct any future misrepresentations of the story. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER! (Sorry it just seemed fitting to end on that note)
Bill, Thanks for having Tom on the show to lend his knowledge and expertise on this very serious topic. Tom is the perfect guest for this moment. Why do I say this? Because you can see in Tom's eyes all the burning emotions raging inside him while talking about these things. These are the same things that millions of Americans are feeling. Disgust, sorrow, betrayal, indignation, suspicion, anguish, desperation and fear. There are possibly more. You both handled the discussion with great clarity. The possible outcomes are plausible based on what is known and past history accounts of these situations. As Tom strongly mentioned several times, this is actually a test of America's morality. Failing this test would be the beginning...of the end.
I am with you Tom, on the sad reality that it seems like Americans don’t seem to care that their President breaks laws and moral norms daily now including a significant super close relationship with a global sex trafficker.
Thank you both for this compelling conversation. Tom is spot on, especially regarding abuse of power to manipulate and silence victims. The immorality of the Epstein coverup reveals the hypocrisy of American institutions and society. We have a lot of work to do to re-establish a moral foundation and it isn't through theocracy, patriarchy, and authoritarianism.
Funny how our most conservative institutions (Catholic Church, FBI, DOJ) have so spectacularly failed to do the right thing against sexual predators over the last 60 years. Even odder that MAGA thought that Trump and the Republicans were righteous in this matter.
It's been reported that all of the references to Trump in the Epstein files were put onto one spreadsheet. I do wonder if the Wall Street Journal has this spreadsheet in its possession. This is the wild card in this whole mess. Someone is gonna provide that spreadsheet to the media if they haven't already done so. Just my two cents.
Why is nobody bringing up the fact that Trump also tried to help out the Tate brothers by bringing them to the US from Romania. Trump is just thoroughly disgusting and admires anyone tied to human trafficking young girls. He's so gross!!
There was a time, not long ago, when a person like Trump would have been run out of town on a rail by the same people who now defend his indefensible lard butt.
The bottom line is that there is nothing wrong with Trump being friends - even very close friends - with Epstein as long as he was not involved in the illegal activities. So why is he so desperate to deny or diminish the relationship unless he WAS involved? Either he’s guilty of wrongdoing or just so stupid he’s making himself appear guilty when he isn’t. And either is likely.
Agreed. I get that Trump would be embarrassed about that relationship, particularly if they were buddies. Who wouldn't be? Trump would hardly be the first person in the world to be shocked and horrified to learn about the awful behavior of someone in their orbit. Simply stating that fact, with any effort, would probably do 99% of the work. However, he's doing anything but that, and is instead deflecting, hiding, etc. This makes extending the benefit of the doubt to Trump difficult. Rather, it makes me think that Trump is personally adjacent to Epstein's actions. I'd venture, if not Trump directly abusing girls, he likely KNEW about Epstein's goings on and help facilitate it at various points, even if to simply turn a blind eye to the women "on the younger side" Epstein was bringing around.
What's with the current fixation on smut, which has sprouted like a mushroom on decomposing cowflop? Didn't that gaggle of "celibate," geriatric clerics who sanctified today's marriage laws, climb up Sinai with them, to get final verification to make them a Holy Sacrament? Ironically, the papal imprimatur opened the floodgates to schemes to flout them
Lastly, how about the Comstock Act, which triggered the anti-abortion movement, as well as spawn ed the parade of mind-manacled moralist bigots that continue to follow in its wake. It's long past time to "leave the dead bury their dead" and consign this smut to journalism's compost pile, then deal with the issues that affect the Republic's future.
Excellent discussion - thank-you!! The Bulwark has done significant work on the various elements of this saga of depravity and power and, for me, Bill has led the way. I have particularly valued his sensitivity to victims.
As always, follow the money!
This was such a good, important conversation. Thank you.
Ok, this is be the third time I’ve heard Maria Farmer’s account being presented incorrectly on The Bulwark. I know it’s not intentional, but it’s also important to get the facts straight:
Maria Farmer was NOT a minor. She was 25 at the time. Trump entered the room she was in and leered at her legs, causing her to feel uncomfortable. At that point, Epstein entered and told Trump “she’s not here for you.” The two men left the room and Maria overheard Trump say “I thought she was 16.”
The most important question to be asking about this encounter is: Which 16 year old girl did Epstein arrange “for him” to see and why? She’s out there and probably terrified to speak out publicly. By misrepresenting Farmer as being underage, you are omitting the most damning red flag in the story and failing to acknowledge the existence of a primary victim. That doesn’t mean that what happened to Farmer isn’t terrible or that she wasn’t a victim, but there was clearly more to it than just Trump being creepy and lecherous. Please make sure you correct any future misrepresentations of the story. THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION TO THIS MATTER! (Sorry it just seemed fitting to end on that note)
I suspect there are co-conspirators and customers in high positions overseas as well.
Bill, Thanks for having Tom on the show to lend his knowledge and expertise on this very serious topic. Tom is the perfect guest for this moment. Why do I say this? Because you can see in Tom's eyes all the burning emotions raging inside him while talking about these things. These are the same things that millions of Americans are feeling. Disgust, sorrow, betrayal, indignation, suspicion, anguish, desperation and fear. There are possibly more. You both handled the discussion with great clarity. The possible outcomes are plausible based on what is known and past history accounts of these situations. As Tom strongly mentioned several times, this is actually a test of America's morality. Failing this test would be the beginning...of the end.
I am with you Tom, on the sad reality that it seems like Americans don’t seem to care that their President breaks laws and moral norms daily now including a significant super close relationship with a global sex trafficker.
Thank you both for this compelling conversation. Tom is spot on, especially regarding abuse of power to manipulate and silence victims. The immorality of the Epstein coverup reveals the hypocrisy of American institutions and society. We have a lot of work to do to re-establish a moral foundation and it isn't through theocracy, patriarchy, and authoritarianism.
Funny how our most conservative institutions (Catholic Church, FBI, DOJ) have so spectacularly failed to do the right thing against sexual predators over the last 60 years. Even odder that MAGA thought that Trump and the Republicans were righteous in this matter.
It's been reported that all of the references to Trump in the Epstein files were put onto one spreadsheet. I do wonder if the Wall Street Journal has this spreadsheet in its possession. This is the wild card in this whole mess. Someone is gonna provide that spreadsheet to the media if they haven't already done so. Just my two cents.
Why is nobody bringing up the fact that Trump also tried to help out the Tate brothers by bringing them to the US from Romania. Trump is just thoroughly disgusting and admires anyone tied to human trafficking young girls. He's so gross!!
Thank you for concentrating on the victims.
There was a time, not long ago, when a person like Trump would have been run out of town on a rail by the same people who now defend his indefensible lard butt.
BTW I think Maria Farmer and Stacy Williams were both over 18- which doesn't make it OK
Maria Farmer born 1969 or 1970. She made clear in interview this week with Bulwark (Tim?) that she wasn't underage.