It's interesting. I think of myself as center-left, and I am currently having a tough time with a true-left family member who thinks Israel deserved this and that my (as Travis just put it) pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian/anti-Hamas position is anathema. To this person, there is no moral ambiguity in any of this, Israel is the persecutor of P…
It's interesting. I think of myself as center-left, and I am currently having a tough time with a true-left family member who thinks Israel deserved this and that my (as Travis just put it) pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian/anti-Hamas position is anathema. To this person, there is no moral ambiguity in any of this, Israel is the persecutor of Palestine, and I am being obtuse at best, equivocating at best, in my position against suffering of all involved. This is real. I don't know how common it is, but it's right in my face.
For most of the last 7+ years I have lamented the strain of politics on my relationship with a MAGA-adjacent family member, and my far-left relative has been with me. Now I am facing a similar rift from the other side of the political spectrum (or maybe horseshoe).
I had a surprising text conversation yesterday with my own son who seems to be buying into the “Israel is doing genocide and apartheid “ argument. He said, “At this point, Ill vote for Trump if he stops the US support of Israel’s genocide.”. I am stunned. THAT is the way a person with the moral character of slime mold gets votes.
I'd have ask him what evidence he sees that Trump is calling for US support to Israel to be cut, and even if so, what evidence he would use to conclude that Trump could be trusted on that topic.
I pointed out to him that Trump is pissed at Netanyahu for saying good things about Biden, which he sees as a betrayal. He thinks TFG is Putin’s puppet, and Putin supports Palestine, so Trump would therefore pro-Palestine, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I pointed out Trump just likes strong men and envies their ability to do whatever they want; Putin also gave him the blasted emails. Quid pro quo. And he needs Jewish votes. He was just trying to get the spotlight back on himself and vent some spleen.
I don’t have the heart to re-initiate the conversation. At least he wasn’t cheering Hamas butchery. God this war is horrible.
I mean, I could see it if your were a Palestinian and you didn't much care what happened in the US. As an American, the idea of conceding that a candidate is the puppet of a foreign power and then voting for him....
Just had a short go around elsewhere on this idea that we have to "recall" how oppressed the Palestinians are. Nobody I know, except some of these outliers, has forgotten this. It is not pertinent right now, sorry. This is a terrorist attack, of tremendous magnitude, and it is continuing. The nonsense that there is ONE good answer is childish. Trying to protect everyone is impossible, even if the Israelis do NOTHING.
Also, the Arab world has refused for decades to accept any Palestinian refugees, or work towards a solution. It seems accepted analysis that the Arab world prefers this unsettled state of affairs that keeps Israel destabilized. They care nothing for the well-being their Palestinian brethren,
An unfortunate reminder that tribalism, motivated reasoning, rationalization, etc. are not confined to the right. They are very much human traits.
I wonder if you were to fully examine your left wing family member's anti-maga position if you would find the same reasoning and rationale you used to come to the same conclusion or something a bit more knee-jerk and tribal...
FarLeft sees MagaAdjacent as wrong on many things but also agrees with MagaAdjacent that Obama/Clinton/Biden/Pelosi are all terrible, only for different reasons. MagaAdjacent consumes the worst far-right stuff (Fox now and then, in between being mad at them for being insufficiently right-wing); The Spectator, Epoch Times, Washington Times, Ben Shapiro, etc), and thus spouts far-right social positions (lately anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-worker, climate change not something we should address [at least doesn't say it's a hoax]) that FarLeft and I can agree are anathema. FarLeft reads Jacobin, is young but post-college and extremely online, so there is probably some tribalism there related to the X/Twitterverse they are involved in.
I totally agree that motivated reasoning and tribalism are human traits, and I am sure my positions are also influenced by them. Although, like all humans, I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!
Oh no! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that my own college-aged kids haven't fallen for this nonsense yet. I know it's out there, though, and it's not just college students. My husband was complaining that the young people he works with are taking a mostly "Israel kind of deserved it" position. Publicly!
There's a good, meaningful article that could be written on why young people feel like this, but I don't have the heart to read long memoirs from people who are too much online. As soon as I see "keyboard warriors" in an article, I suspect strongly that no research was done and no real people were interviewed. But when I have more time, I'll look for a better article on this phenomenon.
Part of me wonders if the students are exhibiting classic rebellion against what they perceive is the establishment position. That’s the kindest frame I can apply.
Part rebellion, I think, but quite apart from the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel has not differentiated the people of Palestine from Hamas. There is valid criticism of the support for Israeli “settlers” who have taken land from Palestinians and established armed settlements on land that has belonged and been farmed by Palestinians families for generations. Palestinians have not been allowed to participate in normal ways of living. This sort of injustice has been funded and defended by Israel and international supporters including many American citizens. That in no way justifies the violent depravity of the Hamas attack. This is a complicated dynamic with plenty of blame all around. Babies are dying on both sides of the border. Now, nothing can stop the insanity until Israel feels safe from further attacks, whatever horrifying consequences that involves.
What happens then will determine what happens next. Can Israel find a way to help Palestinians restore their lives? Will Palestinians accept help from those who attacked? It will require the proverbial wisdom of Solomon, something that has been sorely lacking all round.
The problem is a horrific event doesn’t give license to any response or if it does than any horrific event can be framed as a response (which is exactly where we are now.)
My FarLeft person is not old enough to have watched 70 years of anything, although they insist they have studied the issue and it's all one-sided, that Israel is the colonizer and the Palestinians are victims, and what Hamas did pales in comparison to what Israel has done. And it's an entrenched "if you're not with me you're against me" argument, so that any recognition of mutual suffering (or implication that there are any innocent Israelis) is seen as morally wrong.
It's interesting. I think of myself as center-left, and I am currently having a tough time with a true-left family member who thinks Israel deserved this and that my (as Travis just put it) pro-Israel/pro-Palestinian/anti-Hamas position is anathema. To this person, there is no moral ambiguity in any of this, Israel is the persecutor of Palestine, and I am being obtuse at best, equivocating at best, in my position against suffering of all involved. This is real. I don't know how common it is, but it's right in my face.
For most of the last 7+ years I have lamented the strain of politics on my relationship with a MAGA-adjacent family member, and my far-left relative has been with me. Now I am facing a similar rift from the other side of the political spectrum (or maybe horseshoe).
I had a surprising text conversation yesterday with my own son who seems to be buying into the “Israel is doing genocide and apartheid “ argument. He said, “At this point, Ill vote for Trump if he stops the US support of Israel’s genocide.”. I am stunned. THAT is the way a person with the moral character of slime mold gets votes.
I'd have ask him what evidence he sees that Trump is calling for US support to Israel to be cut, and even if so, what evidence he would use to conclude that Trump could be trusted on that topic.
I pointed out to him that Trump is pissed at Netanyahu for saying good things about Biden, which he sees as a betrayal. He thinks TFG is Putin’s puppet, and Putin supports Palestine, so Trump would therefore pro-Palestine, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. I pointed out Trump just likes strong men and envies their ability to do whatever they want; Putin also gave him the blasted emails. Quid pro quo. And he needs Jewish votes. He was just trying to get the spotlight back on himself and vent some spleen.
I don’t have the heart to re-initiate the conversation. At least he wasn’t cheering Hamas butchery. God this war is horrible.
OMG I hadn't considered that my FarLeft might follow this particular line of argument! It's possible.
Sounds penny wise and pound foolish.
I mean, I could see it if your were a Palestinian and you didn't much care what happened in the US. As an American, the idea of conceding that a candidate is the puppet of a foreign power and then voting for him....
I didn’t see that coming, either.
You have my sympathy, we’re all prepared for those alt right Uncle talks, but the alt left kids talks? Painful.
Just had a short go around elsewhere on this idea that we have to "recall" how oppressed the Palestinians are. Nobody I know, except some of these outliers, has forgotten this. It is not pertinent right now, sorry. This is a terrorist attack, of tremendous magnitude, and it is continuing. The nonsense that there is ONE good answer is childish. Trying to protect everyone is impossible, even if the Israelis do NOTHING.
Also, the Arab world has refused for decades to accept any Palestinian refugees, or work towards a solution. It seems accepted analysis that the Arab world prefers this unsettled state of affairs that keeps Israel destabilized. They care nothing for the well-being their Palestinian brethren,
An unfortunate reminder that tribalism, motivated reasoning, rationalization, etc. are not confined to the right. They are very much human traits.
I wonder if you were to fully examine your left wing family member's anti-maga position if you would find the same reasoning and rationale you used to come to the same conclusion or something a bit more knee-jerk and tribal...
FarLeft sees MagaAdjacent as wrong on many things but also agrees with MagaAdjacent that Obama/Clinton/Biden/Pelosi are all terrible, only for different reasons. MagaAdjacent consumes the worst far-right stuff (Fox now and then, in between being mad at them for being insufficiently right-wing); The Spectator, Epoch Times, Washington Times, Ben Shapiro, etc), and thus spouts far-right social positions (lately anti-trans, anti-gay, anti-worker, climate change not something we should address [at least doesn't say it's a hoax]) that FarLeft and I can agree are anathema. FarLeft reads Jacobin, is young but post-college and extremely online, so there is probably some tribalism there related to the X/Twitterverse they are involved in.
I totally agree that motivated reasoning and tribalism are human traits, and I am sure my positions are also influenced by them. Although, like all humans, I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!
"I also would like to think I am just a reasonable thinker, motivated only by The Truth!"
You, me, and about 6-7 of our fellow bulwarkers (when they agree with me).
When they agree with me!
That’s a small tribe.
We make up for our small numbers by always being right.
Oh no! Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy that my own college-aged kids haven't fallen for this nonsense yet. I know it's out there, though, and it's not just college students. My husband was complaining that the young people he works with are taking a mostly "Israel kind of deserved it" position. Publicly!
There's a good, meaningful article that could be written on why young people feel like this, but I don't have the heart to read long memoirs from people who are too much online. As soon as I see "keyboard warriors" in an article, I suspect strongly that no research was done and no real people were interviewed. But when I have more time, I'll look for a better article on this phenomenon.
Part of me wonders if the students are exhibiting classic rebellion against what they perceive is the establishment position. That’s the kindest frame I can apply.
Part rebellion, I think, but quite apart from the Hamas attack on Israel, Israel has not differentiated the people of Palestine from Hamas. There is valid criticism of the support for Israeli “settlers” who have taken land from Palestinians and established armed settlements on land that has belonged and been farmed by Palestinians families for generations. Palestinians have not been allowed to participate in normal ways of living. This sort of injustice has been funded and defended by Israel and international supporters including many American citizens. That in no way justifies the violent depravity of the Hamas attack. This is a complicated dynamic with plenty of blame all around. Babies are dying on both sides of the border. Now, nothing can stop the insanity until Israel feels safe from further attacks, whatever horrifying consequences that involves.
What happens then will determine what happens next. Can Israel find a way to help Palestinians restore their lives? Will Palestinians accept help from those who attacked? It will require the proverbial wisdom of Solomon, something that has been sorely lacking all round.
Yep. Seen this in a few friends this week and as someone who has several Jewish family members it’s pretty heartbreaking.
The problem is a horrific event doesn’t give license to any response or if it does than any horrific event can be framed as a response (which is exactly where we are now.)
My FarLeft person is not old enough to have watched 70 years of anything, although they insist they have studied the issue and it's all one-sided, that Israel is the colonizer and the Palestinians are victims, and what Hamas did pales in comparison to what Israel has done. And it's an entrenched "if you're not with me you're against me" argument, so that any recognition of mutual suffering (or implication that there are any innocent Israelis) is seen as morally wrong.