Political power often changes the church more than the church changes those in power—the most glaring example is the damage Trump has done to the credibility of the white evangelical world. Plus, Bill Barr is a liar, and the evolution of Mike Johnson. Peter Wehner joins Tim Miller.
Wehner completely discounts that a good many of us he considers "on the left" come from a religious background and are entirely familiar with the virulent but quiet persistent racism, bigotry, and prejudice in Southern White churches. Religion, for the most part, is an exclusionary and tribal "thing," embodied in the if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us psyche. No, Peter, we understand very well the religious mind and goals, which is why -- to the religious -- the pushback looks like contempt.
I really enjoyed this discussion. A question that occurred to me when listening: “Would today’s religious right have convicted Jesus in ~AD30?”. My suspicion is the answer is Yes. Why? Because they stand for tradition, what is ‘right and proper’ (in their minds), and are unsympathetic to challenges from the more vulnerable - black, gay, immigrant etc. But those are who Jesus would have been standing up for, so they would be among those resenting (or worse) him for it.....
For us Orthodox Christians, this is Holy Week, so I'm spending a lot of time in church this week. At tonight's service, I was struck by this passage from John 12:
"Nevertheless many even of the authorities believed in [Jesus], but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
Barr is using dated Republican messaging. It shows he's trying to imitate Republicans. I guess it's part of his attempt to get back in good with the R's. I wonder why he's busy kissing keisters. What does he expect to get out of it?
Christians choose politically according to their beliefs. That influences politics. Where many go wrong is that they feel that politics supercedes Christian belief. They trust in politics more than God, and that's idolatry according to Christian belief. And once you walk off the Christian path, you're no longer following Christian belief.
Politics is partly the practice of learning how to trick and use others. Tim himself worked at presenting those tricks. But the New Testament says, Jesus himself said it, that his disciples were sent out into the world as sheep among wolves, and they were admonished to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. They were warned. The recent crop of Republican Christians didn't do very well with the warning. They wanted easy and fast power for themselves. They believed those who told them politics was the way to achieve their aims. Except politics hasn't. What politics has done is gotten others the power while the Christian rightwing voters and activists keep losing the culture war.
Tim, you have been seriously crushing the daily podcast. I was worried at first because I really liked Charlie’s daily pod but you have exceeded all my expectations. Well done.
By the way, you had me laughing hysterically on love it or leave it. Especially when the las vegas Benihana’s was discussed.
As Pete states astutely - the religious right and most of the religious right wing movements (ex: moral majority) had more to do with civil rights, racism and control than it did with…anything else.
It’s a watered down version of southern whites using the Bible as a way to justify chattel slavery. Jesus would be flipping tables on these people.
As for how can we co-exist with people on the religious right who may hold hostile views about gay marriage, abortion, etc. You can’t use your rights/beliefs as reason to trample my rights. Gay people should be allowed to exist, but you don’t have to invite them to your church. Abortion should be between a woman and her doctor, but you don’t have to get one. My issue with many Christians (as an ex Catholic) is they wish to force their views on others. If my gay friends existing and medical providers being able to provide a procedure to women who are often only getting it due to horrible circumstances makes you feel like I’m harming your rights - then you belong in the same category as the Taliban.
Similar to JVL’s Triad regarding partisanship, Bill Barr is beating the usual Republican drum of “Everything liberal is downstream of Communism.” The Republican Party essentially lossed its way after the Commie strawman for everything they didn’t like went away in the 90s, and all their left with is their terrible, unpopular policies and softcore bigotry.
The policies have been abandoned and the Commie-hating was repackaged as the bigotry.
He even makes the “worse than McCarthy” utter nonsense. Really? Joe Biden is worse than an entire government (and country, frankly) paralyzed from fear of being accused of being a Communist?? Seriously? Unbelievable.
Bill Barr is a Swamp Creature who peaked during the the Reagan era when we dug up the corpse of Commie fear and beat that drum again.
Bill, is the Commie in the room now? Show me on doll where the Commies touched you?
I am not a Christian, not a conservative, but I really like Peter Wehner. He is so thoughtful, generous, and sensitive. And, I agree with him about the most important issue of our day - defeating trump. He wrote an article in the Atlantic a few months ago about the Tracy Chapman / Luke Combs duet at the Grammys which was one of the most moving things I've read in years. On top of everything, Peter is a great writer.
One thing I do not hear people talk about enough is the underlying fear of the conservative voters and elites that whites will soon be the minority and so to preserve white privilege, they must act now before its is too late. This is what fuels the talk of dictatorship, of doing away with the constitution, rigged elections etc. To save white privilege, individual rights must be ended. This is how to make sense of the actions of the Supreme Court and Christian Nationalists, Bill Barr, and all the rest.
"power is a trap' for religion in politics. Thank you Pete Wehner.
Heather Cox Richardson's Letters from an American this morning, focuses on Bill Barr et al and makes a compelling argument in support of the above quote:
I would just add that Leonard Leo's billion dollars has created a honey trap for R politicians to jump onboard the Christian nationalism train or get left behind.
Biden doesn't deserve much blame for the border's condition. It's been out of control for decades. The failure - no, the refusal - of both parties to do anything effective about it certainly gives reason to suspect they are for, their own reasons, deliberately keeping the issue alive, just as Trump recently admitted.
To economists, inflation is under control. Sort of. Problem is, people are not trained economists, carefully checking prices for a defined basket of goods and calculating percent changes to three decimal places, then insisting the current 3%, half again as much as the Fed's target, is fine. What people know are the prices they paid last Saturday for gas and eggs and coffee and what they saw on the sirloin, much less New York strip steak, and how much they remember paying not too long ago.
People don't care about national crime statistics and how they have improved. They care about crime in their neighborhood, perhaps the city. And they largely go on impressions and hearsay, not validated, confirmed reports.
It may be my niche issue, but the Biden campaign owes the mainstream press its gratitude for the blackout on the Department of Education's plans for compelling schools to allow natal males into the girls' restrooms and locker rooms as well as allow their participation in girls' athletics. I dread the possibility that the Trump campaign is holding its fire until later in the year.
Don't get me wrong. I'm solidly in the anti-Trump coalition. Better a President within the normal range of being wrong on policy than an out of control psycho. Still, I'm disgusted with having to vote for the less bad candidate. Three times in a row is way too many to be happy about.
Wehner completely discounts that a good many of us he considers "on the left" come from a religious background and are entirely familiar with the virulent but quiet persistent racism, bigotry, and prejudice in Southern White churches. Religion, for the most part, is an exclusionary and tribal "thing," embodied in the if-you're-not-with-us-you're-against-us psyche. No, Peter, we understand very well the religious mind and goals, which is why -- to the religious -- the pushback looks like contempt.
I really enjoyed this discussion. A question that occurred to me when listening: “Would today’s religious right have convicted Jesus in ~AD30?”. My suspicion is the answer is Yes. Why? Because they stand for tradition, what is ‘right and proper’ (in their minds), and are unsympathetic to challenges from the more vulnerable - black, gay, immigrant etc. But those are who Jesus would have been standing up for, so they would be among those resenting (or worse) him for it.....
For us Orthodox Christians, this is Holy Week, so I'm spending a lot of time in church this week. At tonight's service, I was struck by this passage from John 12:
"Nevertheless many even of the authorities believed in [Jesus], but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God."
Some things never change.
Barr is using dated Republican messaging. It shows he's trying to imitate Republicans. I guess it's part of his attempt to get back in good with the R's. I wonder why he's busy kissing keisters. What does he expect to get out of it?
Christians choose politically according to their beliefs. That influences politics. Where many go wrong is that they feel that politics supercedes Christian belief. They trust in politics more than God, and that's idolatry according to Christian belief. And once you walk off the Christian path, you're no longer following Christian belief.
Politics is partly the practice of learning how to trick and use others. Tim himself worked at presenting those tricks. But the New Testament says, Jesus himself said it, that his disciples were sent out into the world as sheep among wolves, and they were admonished to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. They were warned. The recent crop of Republican Christians didn't do very well with the warning. They wanted easy and fast power for themselves. They believed those who told them politics was the way to achieve their aims. Except politics hasn't. What politics has done is gotten others the power while the Christian rightwing voters and activists keep losing the culture war.
I’d love to know how Mike Johnson’s faith guided his actions in trying to overthrow the 2020 elections results.
Kudos to him with getting Ukraine aid through, but his moral compass seems to operate like he’s living in the Bermuda Triangle.
Tim, you have been seriously crushing the daily podcast. I was worried at first because I really liked Charlie’s daily pod but you have exceeded all my expectations. Well done.
By the way, you had me laughing hysterically on love it or leave it. Especially when the las vegas Benihana’s was discussed.
Bill Barr is just ridiculous! When these dinosaurs are gone the world will be a better place!
As Pete states astutely - the religious right and most of the religious right wing movements (ex: moral majority) had more to do with civil rights, racism and control than it did with…anything else.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133/
It’s a watered down version of southern whites using the Bible as a way to justify chattel slavery. Jesus would be flipping tables on these people.
As for how can we co-exist with people on the religious right who may hold hostile views about gay marriage, abortion, etc. You can’t use your rights/beliefs as reason to trample my rights. Gay people should be allowed to exist, but you don’t have to invite them to your church. Abortion should be between a woman and her doctor, but you don’t have to get one. My issue with many Christians (as an ex Catholic) is they wish to force their views on others. If my gay friends existing and medical providers being able to provide a procedure to women who are often only getting it due to horrible circumstances makes you feel like I’m harming your rights - then you belong in the same category as the Taliban.
Similar to JVL’s Triad regarding partisanship, Bill Barr is beating the usual Republican drum of “Everything liberal is downstream of Communism.” The Republican Party essentially lossed its way after the Commie strawman for everything they didn’t like went away in the 90s, and all their left with is their terrible, unpopular policies and softcore bigotry.
The policies have been abandoned and the Commie-hating was repackaged as the bigotry.
He even makes the “worse than McCarthy” utter nonsense. Really? Joe Biden is worse than an entire government (and country, frankly) paralyzed from fear of being accused of being a Communist?? Seriously? Unbelievable.
Bill Barr is a Swamp Creature who peaked during the the Reagan era when we dug up the corpse of Commie fear and beat that drum again.
Bill, is the Commie in the room now? Show me on doll where the Commies touched you?
Jesus, man, get a grip. It’s embarrassing.
Just a non-political note to say how grateful I am for the Bulwark podcasts and the quality content you all create.
Tim, you need to revive the Depolorables of the Week. Bill Barr makes a great candidate!
I am not a Christian, not a conservative, but I really like Peter Wehner. He is so thoughtful, generous, and sensitive. And, I agree with him about the most important issue of our day - defeating trump. He wrote an article in the Atlantic a few months ago about the Tracy Chapman / Luke Combs duet at the Grammys which was one of the most moving things I've read in years. On top of everything, Peter is a great writer.
One thing I do not hear people talk about enough is the underlying fear of the conservative voters and elites that whites will soon be the minority and so to preserve white privilege, they must act now before its is too late. This is what fuels the talk of dictatorship, of doing away with the constitution, rigged elections etc. To save white privilege, individual rights must be ended. This is how to make sense of the actions of the Supreme Court and Christian Nationalists, Bill Barr, and all the rest.
Good show. Great guest, and host, offering sane and thoughtful commentary on some of the volatile political events and actors in the news.
"power is a trap' for religion in politics. Thank you Pete Wehner.
Heather Cox Richardson's Letters from an American this morning, focuses on Bill Barr et al and makes a compelling argument in support of the above quote:
https://heathercoxrichardson.substack.com/p/april-28-2024
I would just add that Leonard Leo's billion dollars has created a honey trap for R politicians to jump onboard the Christian nationalism train or get left behind.
Biden doesn't deserve much blame for the border's condition. It's been out of control for decades. The failure - no, the refusal - of both parties to do anything effective about it certainly gives reason to suspect they are for, their own reasons, deliberately keeping the issue alive, just as Trump recently admitted.
To economists, inflation is under control. Sort of. Problem is, people are not trained economists, carefully checking prices for a defined basket of goods and calculating percent changes to three decimal places, then insisting the current 3%, half again as much as the Fed's target, is fine. What people know are the prices they paid last Saturday for gas and eggs and coffee and what they saw on the sirloin, much less New York strip steak, and how much they remember paying not too long ago.
People don't care about national crime statistics and how they have improved. They care about crime in their neighborhood, perhaps the city. And they largely go on impressions and hearsay, not validated, confirmed reports.
It may be my niche issue, but the Biden campaign owes the mainstream press its gratitude for the blackout on the Department of Education's plans for compelling schools to allow natal males into the girls' restrooms and locker rooms as well as allow their participation in girls' athletics. I dread the possibility that the Trump campaign is holding its fire until later in the year.
Don't get me wrong. I'm solidly in the anti-Trump coalition. Better a President within the normal range of being wrong on policy than an out of control psycho. Still, I'm disgusted with having to vote for the less bad candidate. Three times in a row is way too many to be happy about.
Tim, in terms of Gaza and campus protests, I’d love to see you and Mehdi Hasan debate.