Coalitions are a good thing, even when there isn't 100% consensus on all issues. All of us support the coalition of Nato and non-Nato countries that have come together to support Ukraine with military weapons, ammunition, and intelligence in their fight for survival against Russia. We support their efforts to provide humanitarian aid t…
Coalitions are a good thing, even when there isn't 100% consensus on all issues. All of us support the coalition of Nato and non-Nato countries that have come together to support Ukraine with military weapons, ammunition, and intelligence in their fight for survival against Russia. We support their efforts to provide humanitarian aid to those who have remained in Ukraine, as well as those who have fled.
There is a lot of common ground between center-left and center-right voters on many of the most important issues facing our country today - a woman's right to choose, balanced against viability of the fetus; common sense gun laws to reduce gun violence; the need for affordable health-care that protects pre-existing conditions; lower prescription drug costs; voting rights; racial justice; immigration policies that secure our borders, protect Dreamers and recognize we are a nation of Immigrants; as well as a host of other issues.
These two groups came together in the 2020 election to oust trump because he was unfit to be President and was an on-going danger to our country. The center-right joined this coalition precisely because Democrats had rejected the far-left candidates and overwhelmingly chose a center-left candidate in Joe Biden. If we hadn't, it's more likely than not, that the center-right would have stuck with the devil-they-know than to risk the devil-they-didn't-know.
Today's GQP has gone all-in on trumpism and the radical extremism that represents anti-democratic authoritarianism, embraces quack-a-doodle conspiracy theories, white supremacists and armed militias. They have passed laws in states all across the country to limit and/or take away our rights and increase their ability to overturn election results they oppose.
If we want to bring our country back from the brink of disaster, if we want to affect real change on issues that polls show a majority of Americans agree on, then we have to win elections. The only thing that will force the GQP to reform is massive losses at the polls. We cannot win elections at the state and federal level unless we form another coalition between center-left and center-right, where most voters reside. If it's our way or the highway, all or nothing, then we're going to lose their votes and watch our power diminish from the bare-majority levels we have now.
Republicans have been playing the long game, willing to acquiesce to trump's maga base in any manner, to secure their votes. They have poured money into securing their current SCOTUS majority who are willing to overturn any precedent for them.
Maybe it's time we look to the long-term as well, and the best way to do that is to take away their votes from the center-right. They cannot win without them, and they know it. Let's get smart about our politics. Let's not donate to MTG's democratic opponent in a district that has zero chance of electing a democrat and instead donate to any one of the 4 democratic Senate candidates running in states that have a real possibility of flipping from red to blue. Let's find common ground and be willing to compromise for now, so we can enact real change on issues that all of us care deeply about.
It's up to us to decide. Do we want to win the battle or do we want to win the war? Because, frankly, right now we are losing both.
You know around 15% of the country either didn't migrate here or didn't freely choose to come here. That "nation of immigrants" leaves out Native and Black Americans
Of course I know - that wasn't the point. The point is that Immigration isn't the horrifying disaster the GQP tries to make it out to be. Most Americans agree.
I oppose immigration and it has nothing to do with what country immigrants are coming from or what color they are. It has everything to do with the environment and the amazing amount of open space we are losing everyday. I am so, so sad for upcoming generations to never be able to see and experience what we are losing to bulldozers every day.
You actually are. When the "nation of immigrants" thing got started, most immigrants were white and thus claiming the US was a "nation of immigrants" equated the white experience with the American experience. That's a major problem and minimizes the experiences of others. Words matter
Strawman alert. Max neither said or implied any such thing. Furthermore, when a statement is as much 85% true, it can be fairly generalized. Generalizations never mean ALL or 100%, nor do generalizations per se minimize the inevitable exceptions.
BTW - if you have so much disdain for center-right voters, exactly how do you think we win elections without them? I'd really like to hear what you think is a winning strategy to win in the upcoming midterms. A lot of Independents are center-right voters. Neither Democrats nor Republicans can win elections without gaining a majority of Independent votes.
I had an iteration of this argument last week, with some people who supposedly are on the same side but only if you say so in ways that they want to hear -- all intellectual, well informed, and utterly inflexible as a result. My takeaway is that there are two types of people with whom you cannot reason: 1) too stupid, and 2) too smart. I now am seeking those in the middle who are flexible and pragmatic enough to listen and to make rational decisions accordingly. That is the soft spot from which close electoral victories can be had.
I've sort of had the same experience especially on the abortion debate. I'm pro-choice but the interaction with extreme pro-choice folks was anything but satisfying and team oriented.
The middle will never be as SURE of themselves as the fringe that they have the only correct answer out there. The fringes are the opposite and it occurs on both sides of the fence.
The fringe are always completely sure they are correct.
I would say that the Left is more intellectually fringe but fringe none the less. The right fringe is so sure they are right...the don't need no stickin' books or crap like that.
Anyway...I think that's where this election will be won...in the middle. If the Dems win again...they should be aware that it's not a mandate for every liberal policy out there. I would advise going for low hanging fruit on their initiatives...get some wins...and see if the middle doesn't sway a bit more to the Left after that.
If they vote for GoP candidates they are. Claiming there is a "GQP" is a glib way of pretending the GoP hasn't been on this path since Reagan embraced racism and far right Christians
More than a few of us on here have a Paul story. He likes to pick fights, and the crazy part is, he picks fights with people who probably agree with him like 95% of the time.
I think the main difference between right and left trolls is that, for the most part, I think right wing trolls are aware they're trolling. Is it a lie if you believe it? Are you a troll if you're not trying to troll? These are profound questions!
I usually like your thoughts, but not name calling. Not here. This forum is the last refuge for me, but it isn’t a guaranteed refuge if we let it slide.
Coalitions are a good thing, even when there isn't 100% consensus on all issues. All of us support the coalition of Nato and non-Nato countries that have come together to support Ukraine with military weapons, ammunition, and intelligence in their fight for survival against Russia. We support their efforts to provide humanitarian aid to those who have remained in Ukraine, as well as those who have fled.
There is a lot of common ground between center-left and center-right voters on many of the most important issues facing our country today - a woman's right to choose, balanced against viability of the fetus; common sense gun laws to reduce gun violence; the need for affordable health-care that protects pre-existing conditions; lower prescription drug costs; voting rights; racial justice; immigration policies that secure our borders, protect Dreamers and recognize we are a nation of Immigrants; as well as a host of other issues.
These two groups came together in the 2020 election to oust trump because he was unfit to be President and was an on-going danger to our country. The center-right joined this coalition precisely because Democrats had rejected the far-left candidates and overwhelmingly chose a center-left candidate in Joe Biden. If we hadn't, it's more likely than not, that the center-right would have stuck with the devil-they-know than to risk the devil-they-didn't-know.
Today's GQP has gone all-in on trumpism and the radical extremism that represents anti-democratic authoritarianism, embraces quack-a-doodle conspiracy theories, white supremacists and armed militias. They have passed laws in states all across the country to limit and/or take away our rights and increase their ability to overturn election results they oppose.
If we want to bring our country back from the brink of disaster, if we want to affect real change on issues that polls show a majority of Americans agree on, then we have to win elections. The only thing that will force the GQP to reform is massive losses at the polls. We cannot win elections at the state and federal level unless we form another coalition between center-left and center-right, where most voters reside. If it's our way or the highway, all or nothing, then we're going to lose their votes and watch our power diminish from the bare-majority levels we have now.
Republicans have been playing the long game, willing to acquiesce to trump's maga base in any manner, to secure their votes. They have poured money into securing their current SCOTUS majority who are willing to overturn any precedent for them.
Maybe it's time we look to the long-term as well, and the best way to do that is to take away their votes from the center-right. They cannot win without them, and they know it. Let's get smart about our politics. Let's not donate to MTG's democratic opponent in a district that has zero chance of electing a democrat and instead donate to any one of the 4 democratic Senate candidates running in states that have a real possibility of flipping from red to blue. Let's find common ground and be willing to compromise for now, so we can enact real change on issues that all of us care deeply about.
It's up to us to decide. Do we want to win the battle or do we want to win the war? Because, frankly, right now we are losing both.
I agree. Well said, you!
You know around 15% of the country either didn't migrate here or didn't freely choose to come here. That "nation of immigrants" leaves out Native and Black Americans
Of course I know - that wasn't the point. The point is that Immigration isn't the horrifying disaster the GQP tries to make it out to be. Most Americans agree.
Out of your entire post, that's all he got out of it.
Exactly.
Kind of explains our current problem doesn't it.
It not just the right wing that opposes immigration, there is a significant block in the left wing too. Not as overtly racist, but still...
I oppose immigration and it has nothing to do with what country immigrants are coming from or what color they are. It has everything to do with the environment and the amazing amount of open space we are losing everyday. I am so, so sad for upcoming generations to never be able to see and experience what we are losing to bulldozers every day.
Loss of environment is a worldwide issue related to the exponential increase in global population more than to immigration.
Yet it leaves purposely leaves out millions of Americans and minimizes their experiences in the country
No one is leaving them out, no one is minimizing their experiences. It was a comment regarding consensus on Immigration policy - nothing more. OMG
You actually are. When the "nation of immigrants" thing got started, most immigrants were white and thus claiming the US was a "nation of immigrants" equated the white experience with the American experience. That's a major problem and minimizes the experiences of others. Words matter
And sometimes people are eager to read more into something that has nothing to do with what is being said.
The Woke Police have arrived...
So, you equate slavery with voluntary immigration?
Strawman alert. Max neither said or implied any such thing. Furthermore, when a statement is as much 85% true, it can be fairly generalized. Generalizations never mean ALL or 100%, nor do generalizations per se minimize the inevitable exceptions.
If that's true, why did center right voters vote for Trump and why aren't they calling on their Senators to vote for a new VRA?
Because most voters aren't actively engaged in politics until election.
So, they care so much about these things they actively support a party that seeks to destroy these things?
Good grief, friend. Take a walk, do some yoga, do a day drink, whatever works for you. Stop trying to instigate stupid arguments.
BTW - if you have so much disdain for center-right voters, exactly how do you think we win elections without them? I'd really like to hear what you think is a winning strategy to win in the upcoming midterms. A lot of Independents are center-right voters. Neither Democrats nor Republicans can win elections without gaining a majority of Independent votes.
I had an iteration of this argument last week, with some people who supposedly are on the same side but only if you say so in ways that they want to hear -- all intellectual, well informed, and utterly inflexible as a result. My takeaway is that there are two types of people with whom you cannot reason: 1) too stupid, and 2) too smart. I now am seeking those in the middle who are flexible and pragmatic enough to listen and to make rational decisions accordingly. That is the soft spot from which close electoral victories can be had.
I've sort of had the same experience especially on the abortion debate. I'm pro-choice but the interaction with extreme pro-choice folks was anything but satisfying and team oriented.
The middle will never be as SURE of themselves as the fringe that they have the only correct answer out there. The fringes are the opposite and it occurs on both sides of the fence.
The fringe are always completely sure they are correct.
I would say that the Left is more intellectually fringe but fringe none the less. The right fringe is so sure they are right...the don't need no stickin' books or crap like that.
Anyway...I think that's where this election will be won...in the middle. If the Dems win again...they should be aware that it's not a mandate for every liberal policy out there. I would advise going for low hanging fruit on their initiatives...get some wins...and see if the middle doesn't sway a bit more to the Left after that.
Independent voters almost always align with a party. There are almost no truly independent voters in America.
Obama won with the same percentage of center right voters as Dukakis lost with.
True enough. About 7% of independent voters are truly independent. Your point?
Do you honestly believe that every center-right voter is actively supporting the GQP?
If they vote for GoP candidates they are. Claiming there is a "GQP" is a glib way of pretending the GoP hasn't been on this path since Reagan embraced racism and far right Christians
OK Paul.
God bless you for trying.
More than a few of us on here have a Paul story. He likes to pick fights, and the crazy part is, he picks fights with people who probably agree with him like 95% of the time.
I think the main difference between right and left trolls is that, for the most part, I think right wing trolls are aware they're trolling. Is it a lie if you believe it? Are you a troll if you're not trying to troll? These are profound questions!
Some reasonable members have stayed, maybe under the possibly misguided idea they might be able to save their beloved party.
I usually like your thoughts, but not name calling. Not here. This forum is the last refuge for me, but it isn’t a guaranteed refuge if we let it slide.