I don't know where to put this, so I'll just do it here.
If Stacey Abrams wins her race, does she really become a contender for President in 2024? I find that difficult to bet money on.
What I do see is her being a viable replacement for Harris in a 2nd Biden admin. I think we agree that the problem with Harris is Biden can't get rid of the first female person of color VP. But maybe that's true, *unless* he can replace her with another one. Maybe?
I'm happy to hear why this is wrong, but...
I think Abrams would take it.
I think Harris would also play along in exchange for a Federal Bench appointment.
Abrams is from a state that Biden could use a stronger lead in.
&
After a successful term as VP Abrams then has a more reasonable shot at POTUS, which is a thing given the shallow bench in the Dem Party right now.
I am not only disgusted by Dr Oz denigrating Fetterman for his post stroke speaking issues, but also about the pile-ons from McCardle, Chavez and Linker (with their minor caveats). This general lack of empathy from all, including, shamefully, Oz, leads to the ongoing disrespect towards doctors and scientists, as well as the breakdown in empathy towards those with medical and other issues. Signed, a retired Family Doc
Awesome discussion except the somewhat terrifying turn towards the end (but it forced me to look up the phrase “‘Katy bar the door”….so there’s that)
One issue that I think is worth commenting on is Sarah’s claim that some Republican voters might view Trump’s statements about a stolen election as similar to Stacey Abrams’ just as many of them view the DOJ’s investigation of Hilary Clinton’s emails as similar to Trump’s storing boxes of classified info at Mar-a-Lago. She says that while in each case, there are superficial similarities, the “context and style” of the allegations are very different/. I agree. But I think the differences are much more significant than just “context and style”.
The things Trump did, he did as the former President and current de facto leader of the Republican Party so the consequences and long-term effects of his actions are much more dangerous.
I don’t know that much about the Abrams election but even if she was completely wrong for not conceding immediately and implying that certain factors resulted in an “unfair” election, nothing she did or said caused Democrats in Georgia to try and forcibly overturn the election or caused them to believe that any future election they didn’t win would, by default, be illegitimate.
It was clearly wrong for Clinton to store sensitive government info on a private server (though I think her actions were more negligent than intentional obstruction). Still I don’t remember Democrats being so incensed over the FBI probe of her mishandling of documents that they sent death threats to FBI inspectors or implied that violence would ensue if she were to be prosecuted.
Forgotten too often in the email mess is the fact that Jared and Ivanka used their personal email servers for government work, such as it was. Trump used an unsecured, personal cell phone(s) for midnight calls to Hannity and God knows who else. Oh, today, with Trump's meltdown in PA - "how dare Biden call us names", completely ignoring the fact that Trump had just called Barr! a RINO, among other names. Trump spent his entire presidency calling people names, including those who worked for him.
Well, one slight bit of potentially good news with disclaimers: Over on the Hill, Jonathan Turley has an article about Hillary's emails and Trump. He keeps hedging that Trump may face criminal charges (sort of in favor), but runs back to "But her emails!" as an argument against. The only laugh I've had all morning. If Trump's lost Turley will Concha be far behind?
Hillary cooperated with the investigation and released her server to the authorities when asked. Also, the documents she had that were marked as "classified" were catalogued as such after she had moved them to her server. Intent matters in this case.
I take kind of an opposite tack on those what-abouts. "What about Hillary?!?"
knowltok: "Good point! I seem to remember pretty loud calls to lock her up. If the president and his attorney general from 2016-2020 couldn't get it done for all their trying, there must not have been anything there. I guess after years of investigation we'll see if anything is there with Trump. Though I don't seem to remember a bunch of whiney little bitches threatening riots over Hillary..."
Truth is True. Trumpism is fascism. Here are the words of Mussolini: Militaristic, violent, controlling but most of all fascism requires adherence to the overheated morality of the herd and the rejection of one's own individual conscience. Yes Carville is right MAGA made Trump. Now we must stand up to it and stop it. And absolutely there will be conflict. But if we flinch now, the losses will only increase with every day we continue to try to appease MAGA.
"Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers. The Fascist State organizes the nation... It has curtailed useless or harmful liberties while preserving those which are essential. In such matters the individual cannot be the judge, but the State only. The Fascist!" Doctrine of Fascism, 1932
Have an amazing holiday, JVL. Enjoyed you sitting in for Charlie. You’re not as mean as Tim.
Standout pods this week. Maybe the one with James Carville was the my fave (MAGA created Trump, not vice-versa) or when Sunny took over Beg to Differ or ... the high wire act of Tim’s pods. Just finished Mr. Miller’s book and I’m recommending to everyone. My husband is tired of me quoting from it.
I had a point. JVL gets it. I voted for Biden and I wish him well, I want him to be a popular and successful president. Mr. mel ladi and I had the same issue with his speech as JVL did. If only POTUS hadn’t headed into policy. I don’t agree with all of the Dems social policy positions and I shouldn’t have to for President Biden to be my President. People of good will can disagree on policy but we should agree on the current danger to the country from a man who respects no laws or norms or even democracy.
I’m about as anti-Trump as it gets but even the Trumpers are my fellow citizens and Biden is their president, too. I want him there when they’re ready to become real Americans again.
Hi mel. You do have a point. And it's a good one, as is usually the case when you post a comment. But there's a problem, and it's summed up in your line about "People of good will can disagree on policy but we should agree on the current danger to the country..."
People of good will can - and many do - take this viewpoint. This comments section is full of them every day. The problem is the lack of good will and, concomitantly, good faith among the Rs in elected office, those seeking office, and the millions in the body politic who drive this vicious snake-eating-its-tail cycle of hateful, hyper-divisive rhetoric, lies and misinformation, veiled threats, and outright calls for violence. That they will ever be "ready to become real Americans again" in significant numbers is, I believe, in serious doubt, since they already view themselves in that way and it is the rest of us who are the un-American turncoats and traitors.
The threat these people pose to our nation must be acknowledged clearly and accurately, and I don't think any folks of good will and good faith should shrink from the task, whether it's Joe Biden or the ordinary man on the street. I understand and respect your desire for our "fellow citizens" to become "real Americans" again. And that would please me no end. But I believe the reality is that it will be a generation-long struggle to rid ourselves of this kind of hyper-divisive and dangerous politics, basically through the process of attrition and containment. Meantime, I think the only way to effectively face and contain this threat so that that process can begin is for people of good will and good faith, who believe in our liberal democracy and its institutions of government, to clearly acknowledge in plain language what the threat is and exactly from whom and where it's coming. That this may further alienate those already lost to reason and the powers of cogent persuasion should be of minimal concern to the rest of us, if at all.
It does give me heart and hope that there are many more people like you and the others here at the B and elsewhere who can agree on the current danger while disagreeing on less important issues, since I see the current danger as the most important issue of all. Thanks to you - and to all here - for being one of the 'good guys'. And have a great holiday.
Great points. Marjorie and her kind cannot come back from where they are and that’s a problem with no easy or quick solution. Not to mention the billionaires like Thiel funding this madness.
He's been known to be very mean. But it's usually also funny. But "wicked wit" applies to our darling Tim. (He spent years being mean to Libs and Progs like me... and old habits die hard. His salvation is the funny part. As long as he never loses his sense of humor and humility, I'm okay with his meanness, unless it's directed at me personally, then I'm the one who loses her sense of humor... yes, I'm working on that.)
And those "real Americans" are calling for Biden to be executed, assassinated, etc., via online death threats. And in Wisconsin, the R running for governor is calling for "people should just, just be ready to get out on the streets with pitchforks and torches". They proved Biden's speech to a T.
I'm only about halfway through Beg to Differ, but McArdle has been fire eviscerating the GOP for not handling its business with Trump. I think she's quite possibly right about how this ends for the GOP if they don't take their medicine now and handle their Trump problem soon.
They're waiting for the Ds to take care of their problem. McConnell and others are deaf, blind and dumb, especially dumb, since the "raid" on Trump came up with all those found and missing classified records.
If McConnell, McCarthy, Graham, Cruz, and all the others in the party that privately despise the disgraced ex-president and wish to see him gone had had the balls to publicly stand up and oppose him then they would have given permission to other Republicans to vote against the crackpots he endorsed in the primaries.
Or maybe the crackpots need to go down in flames in order for the fever to break.
Either way it's hard to see how and when the Republican party moves back to normalcy.
McConnell may finally be breaking away as he realizes that Trump's Pets are tanking the party, and he has now earned Trump's enmity big time. McCarthy, Graham and Cruz are holding on tight. I think they realize that if Trump loosens his grip on the party, and people finally begin seeing what a seditious liar Trump is, they're gonna go down in flames along with Trump. And yes, all the crackpots need to go down in flames
I don't know where to put this, so I'll just do it here.
If Stacey Abrams wins her race, does she really become a contender for President in 2024? I find that difficult to bet money on.
What I do see is her being a viable replacement for Harris in a 2nd Biden admin. I think we agree that the problem with Harris is Biden can't get rid of the first female person of color VP. But maybe that's true, *unless* he can replace her with another one. Maybe?
I'm happy to hear why this is wrong, but...
I think Abrams would take it.
I think Harris would also play along in exchange for a Federal Bench appointment.
Abrams is from a state that Biden could use a stronger lead in.
&
After a successful term as VP Abrams then has a more reasonable shot at POTUS, which is a thing given the shallow bench in the Dem Party right now.
What am I missing?
And why aren't you BBQing right now?
It's a tempting thought, but only if Abrams moves to the center. Her first year as governor would give her plenty of opportunities to do just that.
You guys rock. Keep on keeping on.
This is a cute idea. I'd love to see more podcast recommendations every once in a while.
I am not only disgusted by Dr Oz denigrating Fetterman for his post stroke speaking issues, but also about the pile-ons from McCardle, Chavez and Linker (with their minor caveats). This general lack of empathy from all, including, shamefully, Oz, leads to the ongoing disrespect towards doctors and scientists, as well as the breakdown in empathy towards those with medical and other issues. Signed, a retired Family Doc
A little labor day music
https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLS_SvIOO-yWS_GvVk5Ud8-XHd72KJQYzs
Awesome discussion except the somewhat terrifying turn towards the end (but it forced me to look up the phrase “‘Katy bar the door”….so there’s that)
One issue that I think is worth commenting on is Sarah’s claim that some Republican voters might view Trump’s statements about a stolen election as similar to Stacey Abrams’ just as many of them view the DOJ’s investigation of Hilary Clinton’s emails as similar to Trump’s storing boxes of classified info at Mar-a-Lago. She says that while in each case, there are superficial similarities, the “context and style” of the allegations are very different/. I agree. But I think the differences are much more significant than just “context and style”.
The things Trump did, he did as the former President and current de facto leader of the Republican Party so the consequences and long-term effects of his actions are much more dangerous.
I don’t know that much about the Abrams election but even if she was completely wrong for not conceding immediately and implying that certain factors resulted in an “unfair” election, nothing she did or said caused Democrats in Georgia to try and forcibly overturn the election or caused them to believe that any future election they didn’t win would, by default, be illegitimate.
It was clearly wrong for Clinton to store sensitive government info on a private server (though I think her actions were more negligent than intentional obstruction). Still I don’t remember Democrats being so incensed over the FBI probe of her mishandling of documents that they sent death threats to FBI inspectors or implied that violence would ensue if she were to be prosecuted.
Consequences matter.
Forgotten too often in the email mess is the fact that Jared and Ivanka used their personal email servers for government work, such as it was. Trump used an unsecured, personal cell phone(s) for midnight calls to Hannity and God knows who else. Oh, today, with Trump's meltdown in PA - "how dare Biden call us names", completely ignoring the fact that Trump had just called Barr! a RINO, among other names. Trump spent his entire presidency calling people names, including those who worked for him.
Wait…are you implying Trump and his supporters might be coming off as being <gasp> *hypocritical* in their accusations? ;)
Well, one slight bit of potentially good news with disclaimers: Over on the Hill, Jonathan Turley has an article about Hillary's emails and Trump. He keeps hedging that Trump may face criminal charges (sort of in favor), but runs back to "But her emails!" as an argument against. The only laugh I've had all morning. If Trump's lost Turley will Concha be far behind?
Comey and State Department both came out to say HRC had zero classified emails.
Hillary cooperated with the investigation and released her server to the authorities when asked. Also, the documents she had that were marked as "classified" were catalogued as such after she had moved them to her server. Intent matters in this case.
Intent and/or truth doesn't matter to Trump's Pets in most cases. Though a few cracks are appearing. Trump, true to form, is calling Barr a RINO.
I take kind of an opposite tack on those what-abouts. "What about Hillary?!?"
knowltok: "Good point! I seem to remember pretty loud calls to lock her up. If the president and his attorney general from 2016-2020 couldn't get it done for all their trying, there must not have been anything there. I guess after years of investigation we'll see if anything is there with Trump. Though I don't seem to remember a bunch of whiney little bitches threatening riots over Hillary..."
Truth is True. Trumpism is fascism. Here are the words of Mussolini: Militaristic, violent, controlling but most of all fascism requires adherence to the overheated morality of the herd and the rejection of one's own individual conscience. Yes Carville is right MAGA made Trump. Now we must stand up to it and stop it. And absolutely there will be conflict. But if we flinch now, the losses will only increase with every day we continue to try to appease MAGA.
"Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers. The Fascist State organizes the nation... It has curtailed useless or harmful liberties while preserving those which are essential. In such matters the individual cannot be the judge, but the State only. The Fascist!" Doctrine of Fascism, 1932
Have an amazing holiday, JVL. Enjoyed you sitting in for Charlie. You’re not as mean as Tim.
Standout pods this week. Maybe the one with James Carville was the my fave (MAGA created Trump, not vice-versa) or when Sunny took over Beg to Differ or ... the high wire act of Tim’s pods. Just finished Mr. Miller’s book and I’m recommending to everyone. My husband is tired of me quoting from it.
I had a point. JVL gets it. I voted for Biden and I wish him well, I want him to be a popular and successful president. Mr. mel ladi and I had the same issue with his speech as JVL did. If only POTUS hadn’t headed into policy. I don’t agree with all of the Dems social policy positions and I shouldn’t have to for President Biden to be my President. People of good will can disagree on policy but we should agree on the current danger to the country from a man who respects no laws or norms or even democracy.
I’m about as anti-Trump as it gets but even the Trumpers are my fellow citizens and Biden is their president, too. I want him there when they’re ready to become real Americans again.
Hi mel. You do have a point. And it's a good one, as is usually the case when you post a comment. But there's a problem, and it's summed up in your line about "People of good will can disagree on policy but we should agree on the current danger to the country..."
People of good will can - and many do - take this viewpoint. This comments section is full of them every day. The problem is the lack of good will and, concomitantly, good faith among the Rs in elected office, those seeking office, and the millions in the body politic who drive this vicious snake-eating-its-tail cycle of hateful, hyper-divisive rhetoric, lies and misinformation, veiled threats, and outright calls for violence. That they will ever be "ready to become real Americans again" in significant numbers is, I believe, in serious doubt, since they already view themselves in that way and it is the rest of us who are the un-American turncoats and traitors.
The threat these people pose to our nation must be acknowledged clearly and accurately, and I don't think any folks of good will and good faith should shrink from the task, whether it's Joe Biden or the ordinary man on the street. I understand and respect your desire for our "fellow citizens" to become "real Americans" again. And that would please me no end. But I believe the reality is that it will be a generation-long struggle to rid ourselves of this kind of hyper-divisive and dangerous politics, basically through the process of attrition and containment. Meantime, I think the only way to effectively face and contain this threat so that that process can begin is for people of good will and good faith, who believe in our liberal democracy and its institutions of government, to clearly acknowledge in plain language what the threat is and exactly from whom and where it's coming. That this may further alienate those already lost to reason and the powers of cogent persuasion should be of minimal concern to the rest of us, if at all.
It does give me heart and hope that there are many more people like you and the others here at the B and elsewhere who can agree on the current danger while disagreeing on less important issues, since I see the current danger as the most important issue of all. Thanks to you - and to all here - for being one of the 'good guys'. And have a great holiday.
Great points. Marjorie and her kind cannot come back from where they are and that’s a problem with no easy or quick solution. Not to mention the billionaires like Thiel funding this madness.
I don't think Tim is mean, but he is incisive and direct.
He's been known to be very mean. But it's usually also funny. But "wicked wit" applies to our darling Tim. (He spent years being mean to Libs and Progs like me... and old habits die hard. His salvation is the funny part. As long as he never loses his sense of humor and humility, I'm okay with his meanness, unless it's directed at me personally, then I'm the one who loses her sense of humor... yes, I'm working on that.)
And those "real Americans" are calling for Biden to be executed, assassinated, etc., via online death threats. And in Wisconsin, the R running for governor is calling for "people should just, just be ready to get out on the streets with pitchforks and torches". They proved Biden's speech to a T.
Thanks to all the Bulwark staff for the terrific content and hope everyone has a nice Labor Day weekend 🇺🇸
Enjoy the weekend JVL and everyone! I still have to listen to Thursday’s pod with James Carville and very much looking forward to that.
Well, this is a lovely little gift from you, JVL. Thanks! Have a splendid weekend with your family. See ya Tuesday!
I'm only about halfway through Beg to Differ, but McArdle has been fire eviscerating the GOP for not handling its business with Trump. I think she's quite possibly right about how this ends for the GOP if they don't take their medicine now and handle their Trump problem soon.
They're waiting for the Ds to take care of their problem. McConnell and others are deaf, blind and dumb, especially dumb, since the "raid" on Trump came up with all those found and missing classified records.
If McConnell, McCarthy, Graham, Cruz, and all the others in the party that privately despise the disgraced ex-president and wish to see him gone had had the balls to publicly stand up and oppose him then they would have given permission to other Republicans to vote against the crackpots he endorsed in the primaries.
Or maybe the crackpots need to go down in flames in order for the fever to break.
Either way it's hard to see how and when the Republican party moves back to normalcy.
McConnell may finally be breaking away as he realizes that Trump's Pets are tanking the party, and he has now earned Trump's enmity big time. McCarthy, Graham and Cruz are holding on tight. I think they realize that if Trump loosens his grip on the party, and people finally begin seeing what a seditious liar Trump is, they're gonna go down in flames along with Trump. And yes, all the crackpots need to go down in flames
Have a good, relaxing long weekend, JVL!