"The Knicks lost a dogfight. And while the president can’t directly be blamed, it’s hard to imagine that the blue-and-orange faithful want him returning to basketball mecca for game four on Wednesday."
Sports fans in Texas would beg to differ with you on the "can't directly be blamed" as they have seen it time after time, sport after sport, every time Ted Cruz attends a game.
What really pissed me off was that they had to cancel the watch parties outside the arena. For long-time loyal Knicks fans priced out of a ticket, the watch parties were a nice alternative. Until Trump touched it and it died.
Obama, who was a legit and huge basketball fan and probably wanted to go to the NBA finals, never did, and for the exact reason that Trump should not have, regardless of the stupid invite from Dolan. Obama knew the security footprint would cause nightmares.
Losing the watch party outside the Garden was probably the worst part. I saw footage of the Obamas on the Jumbotron getting loudly cheered, with much better seats. Hopefully that irked Trump.
I feel for those Knicks fans. It's bad enough that most average, loyal fans end up getting priced out of tickets during the playoffs, because, well, it is what it is (yay capitalism!). But come one - don't ruin the alternatives! This guys simply doesn't give a shit about anyone other than himself, his family and his cronies.
If the Spurs hung a picture of Ted Cruz behind the clear backboard of the opposing hoop they couldn’t lose. No player would want to look at that taking free throws or field goals.
I recommend that if Texans would prefer to win sport games, they should consistently tell Ted Cruz that there's a major winter storm coming and to provide him free tickets to Cancun.
As a member of the LDS Church, I have been warning my fellow Church members that are far-right and supportive of Christian Nationalism for years that if the country went Christian National, our Church would be outside looking in. Proof given - especially with the result that rather than include the LDS Church as Christians, they would rather remove the "Christian" designation from all other Christian churches.
As an (admittedly lapsed) Catholic, I feel the same way about right-wing members of my former faith. Evangelical Christians may be cool with them right now, having made common cause over abortion, but many still believe the Catholic Church is “the whore of Babylon”.
There are significant differences between Christian religions. With all the Ten Commandments laws that states are passing (most of which use the King James translation), I like to point out that the Catholic and Lutheran version of the Commandments is not the same as other Protestant versions of them (or, I believe, of the Jewish version). While it’s mostly a numbering difference, Catholics and Lutherans separate “coveting thy neighbor’s wife” from “coveting my neighbor’s goods”, which I thinks distinguishes spouses from property and lust from greed. And, of course, NOBODY’s version of the Ten Commandments should be posted in a public space as a guideline for behavior because that constitutes an establishment of religion.
As a Lutheran I'll say the other virtue of the Catholic/Lutheran numbering is the way it (properly in my view!) consolidates the command "you shall have no other gods" with "you shall not make for yourself a graven image" helps avoid a lot of the distrust of art / iconoclasm you see in other Protestant traditions.
That seems like a really crucial point, but reading it I could not help thinking of a golden statue of Trump surrounded by a group of dancers in MAGA hats!
I'm of the view that the Beatitudes are more important to Christians and should be posted instead, but nobody would ever do that. Blessed are the merciful? Come. On.
The Beatitudes are totally woke. Can't be telling people to be nice to one another. No way they're going for that. They'll stick with the ever vengeful, mostly negative Old Testament rules.
I'm another "former." In my 12 years of Catholic schooling, we were often reminded of how marginalized the Catholic Church was by various American authorities through the years. We were very grateful for First Amendment protections. Shame that the Catholic Church can't seem to remember American history.
In fact Catholics were the major target of the Klan in the 1920s when it was a national rather than a primarily Southern organization . The Klan supported public schools so that Catholic parochial schools would have to close . Not only did Catholics "serve two masters " , from 1878-1903 Pope Leo remade Catholic doctrine to support workers over capitalists .
Funny that you said so. You ever have a day where something you've hardly ever heard of before comes up several times? I had no idea until today that the previous Pope Leo was such a radical.
".... working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself."
I remember being taught that it was a sin to attend the church of any religion other than Roman Catholic and to look for the vigil lights and the statues of saints.
I knew a Catholic sister who grew up in Richmond, Virginia, and never knew a single Protestant. In this very Protestant city, she lived in an entirely Catholic world. She said when she and her Catholic friends were walking down a sidewalk and were about to pass a Protestant church, they would cross to the other side of the street.
I found this to be true for a lot of Mormons raised or lived in Utah. There were so many that you could go your whole life not really having any engaging moments with anyone outside the Church. Not an uppity thing, just that the population was 80% LDS.
I grew up in Utah and that was true for me until I served a mission in Germany and learned that there were other religions and non-LDS people :-)
Also, after graduating from BYU my wife and I moved to other states and made friends mostly with non-LDS people. I am a better person (and frankly, Church member) because of that.
Having witnessed this a few times, I can verify that evangelicals are generally unable to resist talking shit about Catholicism the instant the last Catholic leaves the room.
When I first saw the list, I was curious why Catholics were listed as "Christians". I grew up Catholic, and we always separated ourselves for the Protestants. We were Catholic - they were Christian.
Reminds me of officials in the south closing publics pools and schools and parks rather than integrate. The hate is so strong they'd rather disband the club than let you in.
You would think that the LDS Church would be careful about cozying up to Christian Nationalists given their history of oppression by their "brethren" of other Christian "faiths". Yeah, they happily gave up their productive farms in the East to settle in the high desert of Utah.
The "Church" as a whole doesn't cozy up to any other religion or political group - officially, but the members sure do, to your point.
I will say that generally speaking in all the 60 years I have been attending church there has never been any political direction from the Church (however they do speak on specific doctrinal issues like abortion) nor at the local units other than about the civic duty to learn about the candidates, the issues, and to vote for good people.
As far as giving up their farms in the East, I think it worked out pretty good for them back then and today :-)
Yes indeed. I remember as a teenager going to a session at a Christian summer camp about cults and learning, among other things, how Mormonism was one and therefore not Christian. That experience has really stuck with me (along with another thing related to gender) that really captures the mindset of the Christian right.
I remember going to a Christian summer camp, praying to God before trying the obstacle course that I would make it through, then falling from it and breaking my arm. It made me realize that my (lack of) ability to complete the course was the reason I fell. In my view, it had nothing to do with God.
I also remember talk of "Mormons", and it wasn't what I would call "inclusive".
Some below have referenced past descriptions of Mormonism as a cult. As a Catholic, I think all the Protestant religions have gone off the reservation - some more than others. That said, I would never call LDS a cult. You guys do profess to believe some “unconventional” things, and I can’t ever unsee that hilarious musical, but I’ll say this for LDS: Every Mormon I have ever met has been a really nice, decent person, and the basic values and behavior your faith promotes couldn’t be more Christian, at least as I’d like to define it.
As someone from the non-denominational side of Christianity, please tell them they are certainly going to come for you all once they feel they’ve successfully taken over enough. They HATE Mormons. Just slightly less than Muslims.
Indeed. The good news is most of us are used to the anti-mormon sentiment and just shrug it off and in some sense with good humor. According to teachings, it will get worse for us as we head into the final days before the millennium.
I recall Rusty Bowers in his testimony at the J6 hearings say that he stood steadfastly against Trump trying to influence his election because Mormons believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired. Is this a common view? Or a common topic of discussion in Utah?
It's a common view and has been the subject of sermons by most our leadership from time to time. In fact, this past Sunday's classroom topic was about the spiritual aspects of the Constitution as part of the LDS celebration of the U.S. 250 yrs.
This is in part why I have a problem with Mike Lee (and the other doofuses from Utah)
Not to try to convert you or anything but here is a sermon by our now President of the Church that talks about the Constitution he gave at our worldwide conference back in 2021 - aside from the religious aspect, it is mostly a good sermon in general for anyone and I think some of our LDS MAGA folks need to read this (again)
Thanks for the insight! I will take a look at the sermon, definitely interested in the topic. I grew up in rural Wisconsin as a Methodist unofficially Evangelical. I too am frustrated at the embrace of Trump by the culture I grew up in. And unfortunately for me, I think with the Constitution as a key item in Mormonism, you guys will revolt against Trumpism well before my old crew (I live in urban MN now and the churches here are for the most part very against Trump)
Andrew: "Last week, the Department of Defense significantly cut down its number of “recognized” faith groups from more than 200 to just 31. The point, as usual, was basically dewokification, with “wokeness” here defined as attempting to respect the faiths of servicemembers belonging to tiny religious minorities: “pagans,” “humanists,” and “New Age” faiths, among many others, were out. The Defense Department, Hegseth said, was “making the Chaplain Corps Great Again.”"
This is just a reminder that the more outwardly and ostentatiously religious one is, the higher the probability they're a moral degenerate. It's been a while since Catholic middle school, but I'm pretty sure the Lord would look down upon Little Peter's behavior. Adultery. Sexual assault. Drunkenness. All are signs of a person whose eyes only face inward and is entirely self seeking. So it is indeed amusing that such a person would decide what constitutes a valid religion.
Tim it’s always been ok that the men behave that way and despite Jesus with his weak libtard view of casting stones you can’t let the women get away with it.
All these born again males have to do is say that they have been forgiven by their version of Jesus and all is hunky-dory.
I think li'l petey should humble his know-nothing @ss and sit down. he's one of the many in power that shouldn't be making decisions on what is and isn't recognized as christianity with his ugly past not far behind him. When your own mother writes a letter telling you what a disgrace you are as a man, well...
I always respect your posts, Mike, but be careful... not all outward shows of Christianity are bad, there are some faithful in all walks of life. As leftists, Democrats, liberals... whatever we want to call ourselves, we need to be careful because it is a scornful attitude towards "Christianity" in general that instigates some on the right to demonize us. Stereotypes are almost always unfair and inaccurate when applied to individuals.
You are 100% correct, there are many, many people who's Christianity motivates them to make the world a better place. While I'm no longer religious, I have the deepest respect for those people.
I have found that the people who make the biggest "show" of their beliefs rarely make the world better. Heck, Jesus warned of excessive displays of religion in Matthew 6:6.
Small business people making overt religious appeals are more often phoney-baloney.
I've known some extremely religious folks who bust their rear end to help the least of Jesus' people. I never see that fish on their cars.
Nope, it's just entertainment and content to them, basically. Just a fun thing to watch on TV, Mike Lee talking about how he appealed to Trump to approve his religion and good things are bound to come from it. It might as well be an advertisement.
The biggest point here, one obviously ignored by Hegseth and Trump, is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This Administration has absolutely no respect, or even a passing knowledge of, the Constitution. It should be a crime for anyone in government to put their hand on a bible and take an oath to protect something they know nothing about. I think all government employees who take an oath to the Constitution should have to pass a comprehensive exam showing they know what it says and means. We don't do this, and as a consequence, the Oath of Office has become a complete farce.
Once the authoritarian, rightwing theocracy takes over, it will be fun to watch the allies for now fight to the death, but I don’t think they will let people like me survive to see it. The European religious wars of the seventeenth century, which were also religious, led to the deaths of enormous swathes of the population. This was very much on the minds of the founders of the United States who called for tolerance and religious freedom.
You can dismiss Wiccans and others all you want, but I've known a few throughout my life and they run the gamut of believers, just like everyone else - some crazy, some lovely, and all of them Americans.
One of the more humorous moments of my enlisted service was when I had them put "Branch Davidian" on my dog tags as an atheist and everyone thought it was just some random offshoot of evangelical christianity. I still have those tags and it still makes me laugh. I think I only met one senior enlisted person who actually knew who the BDs were and he got a laugh out of it.
And just to be clear this policy change only involved classification of troops for chaplain-ministry purposes--you're still allowed to put anything on your dog tags you want!
While that's the official reason, for all my time in uniform I considered it secondary to who shows up at your loved one's door should the worst happen. When I got married, I changed mine from no religion to my spouse's faith tradition exactly for that reason.
The pentagon papered over the cracks and uproar created by their ham handedness, but if I were Mormon I might want to take a hard look at the views of those I thought on the same side. The original designation was no accident. The Hegseth types don’t see the Mormons as *true* Christians is Christians at all. The Mormons have had a long history of persecution in this country and the only real protection is secular liberalism and equal rights for all. They would do well to think a bit on their own reaction and how others excluded for no reason might feel as well. Though a minor blip in the grand scheme, this should remind them Mormons are not fully accepted into the club of white Christian nationalists.
I remember years ago a Baptist couple with their two kids stop by my house as they were going about witnessing. When I mentioned that I was Catholic, the wife motioned the two kids behind her and the four of them scurried away. I do remember that some Baptist sects were taught that Catholics are anti-Christs. It must have been horrifying to them to have met one in person.
Years ago my very RC neighbor sent her youngest daughter to an evening vacation Bible school run by the Baptist church around the corner, just to get her out of the house. Erica came home and asked her parents what a “whore of Babylon” was, and why was their church one? So Laura laughingly introduced herself to the pastor, who had the *temporary* courtesy to blush. (Our neighborhood is bracketed by two Baptist churches. That one was known as the “mean” one.)
Yes, I moved -- not comfortably and not for long -- in those circles in my late teens. I do owe them a solid grounding in Bible study even though I had doubts about their theological stances.
And the point is... nobody in government should be making that designation. Whether to believe in some religious doctrine is purely a decision for the individuals who are affected by that decision, and only them.
I am often surprised at how many people who most definitely are seen by MAGA as "other", delude themselves into thinking they are the exception to the rule and the In Crowd not only likes them, but considers them part of the In Crowd. They may get a nasty surprise one day and maybe will figure out they have merely been useful idiots to MAGA. A reading of the "First they came" poem attributed to Martin Niemöller might help them see more clearly, but I doubt it.
Mona, you have surpassed Bill's abilities to channel the inner thoughts of our dear leader with your ability to channel the J6 insurrectionists. Well Done! LOL.. . . sigh
You beat me to it! Just a few weeks ago, I found myself posting the assertion that "evidence-free claims are MAGA's stock-in-trade". Many offered a hearty "thumbs-up". Heh.
The LDS business highlights an important aspect of authoritarianism, nobody stays in the tent forever. There are constant purity tests, and eventually you'll be on the outside. It always happens. Pastor Niemoller said it better than I ever could.
When Kevin McCarthy was Speaker of the House, Trump referred to him as "My Kevin." Now that Mike Johnson is Speaker of the House, Trump probably calls him "My Johnson."
A reminder for Kegsbreath and other pseudo-Christians from Rev. Jim Walls: Christianity is not a religion that gives some people a ticket to heaven and makes them judgmental of all others.
Rather, it’s a call to a relationship that changes all our other relationships.
According to some people, apparently, Christianity didn't really start until Theodosius used the power of the state to ban paganism (i.e., traditional religious practices) and enforce particular doctrines as Christian orthodoxy.
When I joined the military, I put 'Other' on my religious affiliation - the list then was pretty short and didn't include 'Skeptic' which is where I was at the time. The only religion I had any experience with was Seventh-Day Adventist and, in the military, you want to save that for the off chance you decide you want out early. It's quite good for a faith-based discharge since they're all about what Jesus says like 'Turn the other cheek' and 'Love your enemies' and don't much approve of soldiers and war. My mom, who was quite devout, wasn't happy at all with me joining up. Still, the idea that the list is, once again, a laughably short one (hey, isn't it really just 'Christian'?) irks me. Yet again this administration has done the wrong thing. In fact, they do the wrong thing so often it's a shock when something they do is, probably quite accidentally, right. And, hmm, I can't remember what any of them were....
At my dear friend's wake, the display of his dog-tags confirmed that he had indeed listed his religion as "Nordic", with the expectation that his remains would be pushed out to sea in a burning longship. (He was an armor officer in the '80's, so I guess that was an option then? 😉 )
Rest of the story: Last year I loaded his cremated remains into a wooden model ship, and took his children, sister, and some close others sailing into the Gulf of Mexico. We lit him up, shoved him off, and toasted his memory with rhum because I hadn't thought to buy mead. There was not one boring minute in his life, and we hope we helped get his afterlife off to a similar start.
If the public at large had been paying more attention to the ins and outs of Section 702 since it was proposed Trump would not be president period and some of the "Democrats don't fight" rhetoric would not exist. There are certainly individual good Democrats like Ron Wyden who have fought on this from the beginning.
LDS voters are both simultaneously moving away from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party while also moving toward Trump. The Evan McMullin types of Republicans that can’t vote either Democrat or for Trump is the group that is shrinking.
Rajeev you just reminded me of something Jeff Flake said about how his LDS church in Arizona had told the original congregation that families on one side of the aisle should be republican and on the other Democrats.
"The Knicks lost a dogfight. And while the president can’t directly be blamed, it’s hard to imagine that the blue-and-orange faithful want him returning to basketball mecca for game four on Wednesday."
Sports fans in Texas would beg to differ with you on the "can't directly be blamed" as they have seen it time after time, sport after sport, every time Ted Cruz attends a game.
What really pissed me off was that they had to cancel the watch parties outside the arena. For long-time loyal Knicks fans priced out of a ticket, the watch parties were a nice alternative. Until Trump touched it and it died.
Obama, who was a legit and huge basketball fan and probably wanted to go to the NBA finals, never did, and for the exact reason that Trump should not have, regardless of the stupid invite from Dolan. Obama knew the security footprint would cause nightmares.
Losing the watch party outside the Garden was probably the worst part. I saw footage of the Obamas on the Jumbotron getting loudly cheered, with much better seats. Hopefully that irked Trump.
I feel for those Knicks fans. It's bad enough that most average, loyal fans end up getting priced out of tickets during the playoffs, because, well, it is what it is (yay capitalism!). But come one - don't ruin the alternatives! This guys simply doesn't give a shit about anyone other than himself, his family and his cronies.
He will probably rage tweet about it.
It seems trump knew too but just didn't care - none of his staff cared and I doubt many of his voters cared either.
Exactly. When has Trump ever cared about anyone but himself?
“Obama knew the security footprint would cause nightmares.”
When you’re Dear Leader, you don’t bother with such insignificant details—like giving a damn about the fans….:)
I mean everything Trump touches dies. So I think he is to blame, it goes beyond correlation at this point, to many data points.
I knew if the Knicks lost, the fans would blame Trump for jinxing the team. A logical thought on their parts. 🤔
#ETTD
He nicked the headline, but his goal was to become part of the story, anyway.
If the Spurs hung a picture of Ted Cruz behind the clear backboard of the opposing hoop they couldn’t lose. No player would want to look at that taking free throws or field goals.
I recommend that if Texans would prefer to win sport games, they should consistently tell Ted Cruz that there's a major winter storm coming and to provide him free tickets to Cancun.
Sometimes the ends justify the means. ;)
When the going gets tough, the tough get going to Cancun.
I get your drift, but living here, I think all Ted needs to know, still, is that a major winter storm is coming!
Drift as in snowdrift! ;)
I'm sure Teddy gets some lusty boos after which Texas elects him again and again.
Spurs fan sez 👏👏👏👏👏
As a member of the LDS Church, I have been warning my fellow Church members that are far-right and supportive of Christian Nationalism for years that if the country went Christian National, our Church would be outside looking in. Proof given - especially with the result that rather than include the LDS Church as Christians, they would rather remove the "Christian" designation from all other Christian churches.
As an (admittedly lapsed) Catholic, I feel the same way about right-wing members of my former faith. Evangelical Christians may be cool with them right now, having made common cause over abortion, but many still believe the Catholic Church is “the whore of Babylon”.
There are significant differences between Christian religions. With all the Ten Commandments laws that states are passing (most of which use the King James translation), I like to point out that the Catholic and Lutheran version of the Commandments is not the same as other Protestant versions of them (or, I believe, of the Jewish version). While it’s mostly a numbering difference, Catholics and Lutherans separate “coveting thy neighbor’s wife” from “coveting my neighbor’s goods”, which I thinks distinguishes spouses from property and lust from greed. And, of course, NOBODY’s version of the Ten Commandments should be posted in a public space as a guideline for behavior because that constitutes an establishment of religion.
As a Lutheran I'll say the other virtue of the Catholic/Lutheran numbering is the way it (properly in my view!) consolidates the command "you shall have no other gods" with "you shall not make for yourself a graven image" helps avoid a lot of the distrust of art / iconoclasm you see in other Protestant traditions.
That seems like a really crucial point, but reading it I could not help thinking of a golden statue of Trump surrounded by a group of dancers in MAGA hats!
Dead on, Mr. Egger
I'm of the view that the Beatitudes are more important to Christians and should be posted instead, but nobody would ever do that. Blessed are the merciful? Come. On.
The Beatitudes are totally woke. Can't be telling people to be nice to one another. No way they're going for that. They'll stick with the ever vengeful, mostly negative Old Testament rules.
Neither an authoritarian nor a billionaire can be a true Christian.
Will Saletan described that as “My God can beat up your god”. That remark cracked me up, but he’s not wrong.
Agreed. The same thought haas often occurred to me, too.
"Blessed are the peacemakers for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven." Bad news for Pete Hegseth.
I'm another "former." In my 12 years of Catholic schooling, we were often reminded of how marginalized the Catholic Church was by various American authorities through the years. We were very grateful for First Amendment protections. Shame that the Catholic Church can't seem to remember American history.
Then there are the (self-declared) Catholics who openly reject any pope they regard as too liberal.
Ah, you've been to my family reunions!
It is amazing how the far right hates Pope Leo even though he is a moderate conservative.
Fascists detest Christianity but seek church support for tactical reasons.
In fact Catholics were the major target of the Klan in the 1920s when it was a national rather than a primarily Southern organization . The Klan supported public schools so that Catholic parochial schools would have to close . Not only did Catholics "serve two masters " , from 1878-1903 Pope Leo remade Catholic doctrine to support workers over capitalists .
Written from a former KKK state , Oregon
Funny that you said so. You ever have a day where something you've hardly ever heard of before comes up several times? I had no idea until today that the previous Pope Leo was such a radical.
".... working men have been surrendered, isolated and helpless, to the hardheartedness of employers and the greed of unchecked competition. The mischief has been increased by rapacious usury, which, although more than once condemned by the Church, is nevertheless, under a different guise, but with like injustice, still practiced by covetous and grasping men. To this must be added that the hiring of labor and the conduct of trade are concentrated in the hands of comparatively few; so that a small number of very rich men have been able to lay upon the teeming masses of the laboring poor a yoke little better than that of slavery itself."
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiii/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum.html
I think this encyclical is a large part of the reason the current pope picked Leo.
I went to an Augustinian high school. I have enormous respect for the Order of Saint Augustin.
I still recall the old graphic of a family being menaced by a bunch of mitre-headed crocodiles creeping shoreward towards them (Thomas Nast?).
I remember that!
That thinking never left.
I remember being taught that it was a sin to attend the church of any religion other than Roman Catholic and to look for the vigil lights and the statues of saints.
I knew a Catholic sister who grew up in Richmond, Virginia, and never knew a single Protestant. In this very Protestant city, she lived in an entirely Catholic world. She said when she and her Catholic friends were walking down a sidewalk and were about to pass a Protestant church, they would cross to the other side of the street.
I found this to be true for a lot of Mormons raised or lived in Utah. There were so many that you could go your whole life not really having any engaging moments with anyone outside the Church. Not an uppity thing, just that the population was 80% LDS.
I grew up in Utah and that was true for me until I served a mission in Germany and learned that there were other religions and non-LDS people :-)
Also, after graduating from BYU my wife and I moved to other states and made friends mostly with non-LDS people. I am a better person (and frankly, Church member) because of that.
Religious organizations are very jealous of each other. Priests/preachers love power.
One the other hand there is some odd desire among the Irish Catholics I know to feel that they are standing up bravely to the power of the oppressor
American history or its own history!
Having witnessed this a few times, I can verify that evangelicals are generally unable to resist talking shit about Catholicism the instant the last Catholic leaves the room.
When I first saw the list, I was curious why Catholics were listed as "Christians". I grew up Catholic, and we always separated ourselves for the Protestants. We were Catholic - they were Christian.
I thought it was Catholic and non-Catholic!
I have an evangelical friend who doesn't consider Catholics as Christians; idol worship and all. And I've met others, unfortunately, of the same ilk.
Reminds me of officials in the south closing publics pools and schools and parks rather than integrate. The hate is so strong they'd rather disband the club than let you in.
You would think that the LDS Church would be careful about cozying up to Christian Nationalists given their history of oppression by their "brethren" of other Christian "faiths". Yeah, they happily gave up their productive farms in the East to settle in the high desert of Utah.
The "Church" as a whole doesn't cozy up to any other religion or political group - officially, but the members sure do, to your point.
I will say that generally speaking in all the 60 years I have been attending church there has never been any political direction from the Church (however they do speak on specific doctrinal issues like abortion) nor at the local units other than about the civic duty to learn about the candidates, the issues, and to vote for good people.
As far as giving up their farms in the East, I think it worked out pretty good for them back then and today :-)
Kevin Phillips explains it in his American Theocracy, an important book.
Yes indeed. I remember as a teenager going to a session at a Christian summer camp about cults and learning, among other things, how Mormonism was one and therefore not Christian. That experience has really stuck with me (along with another thing related to gender) that really captures the mindset of the Christian right.
I remember going to a Christian summer camp, praying to God before trying the obstacle course that I would make it through, then falling from it and breaking my arm. It made me realize that my (lack of) ability to complete the course was the reason I fell. In my view, it had nothing to do with God.
I also remember talk of "Mormons", and it wasn't what I would call "inclusive".
Some below have referenced past descriptions of Mormonism as a cult. As a Catholic, I think all the Protestant religions have gone off the reservation - some more than others. That said, I would never call LDS a cult. You guys do profess to believe some “unconventional” things, and I can’t ever unsee that hilarious musical, but I’ll say this for LDS: Every Mormon I have ever met has been a really nice, decent person, and the basic values and behavior your faith promotes couldn’t be more Christian, at least as I’d like to define it.
As someone from the non-denominational side of Christianity, please tell them they are certainly going to come for you all once they feel they’ve successfully taken over enough. They HATE Mormons. Just slightly less than Muslims.
Indeed. The good news is most of us are used to the anti-mormon sentiment and just shrug it off and in some sense with good humor. According to teachings, it will get worse for us as we head into the final days before the millennium.
I recall Rusty Bowers in his testimony at the J6 hearings say that he stood steadfastly against Trump trying to influence his election because Mormons believe that the Constitution is divinely inspired. Is this a common view? Or a common topic of discussion in Utah?
It's a common view and has been the subject of sermons by most our leadership from time to time. In fact, this past Sunday's classroom topic was about the spiritual aspects of the Constitution as part of the LDS celebration of the U.S. 250 yrs.
This is in part why I have a problem with Mike Lee (and the other doofuses from Utah)
Not to try to convert you or anything but here is a sermon by our now President of the Church that talks about the Constitution he gave at our worldwide conference back in 2021 - aside from the religious aspect, it is mostly a good sermon in general for anyone and I think some of our LDS MAGA folks need to read this (again)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/51oaks?lang=eng
Thanks for the insight! I will take a look at the sermon, definitely interested in the topic. I grew up in rural Wisconsin as a Methodist unofficially Evangelical. I too am frustrated at the embrace of Trump by the culture I grew up in. And unfortunately for me, I think with the Constitution as a key item in Mormonism, you guys will revolt against Trumpism well before my old crew (I live in urban MN now and the churches here are for the most part very against Trump)
The barrier for current LDS Trump supporters to move off of Trump is they need to get off Fox News first :-)
Andrew: "Last week, the Department of Defense significantly cut down its number of “recognized” faith groups from more than 200 to just 31. The point, as usual, was basically dewokification, with “wokeness” here defined as attempting to respect the faiths of servicemembers belonging to tiny religious minorities: “pagans,” “humanists,” and “New Age” faiths, among many others, were out. The Defense Department, Hegseth said, was “making the Chaplain Corps Great Again.”"
This is just a reminder that the more outwardly and ostentatiously religious one is, the higher the probability they're a moral degenerate. It's been a while since Catholic middle school, but I'm pretty sure the Lord would look down upon Little Peter's behavior. Adultery. Sexual assault. Drunkenness. All are signs of a person whose eyes only face inward and is entirely self seeking. So it is indeed amusing that such a person would decide what constitutes a valid religion.
As for the Knicks' loss last night, #ETTD.
If you listen to all the MAGA preachers, Jesus would be impressed with Sec Hegseth's ability to do push ups! /s
MAGA preachers.
< Tim starts laughing hysterically >
Those assholes are at this point foregone conclusions, aren't they?
And dance. 🙄 https://xcancel.com/buckadeath/status/2060702143003144246?s=46&t=V7VfS2X8f7Tb8bB5srchIg (xcancel mirrors X without sending traffic to X. If you can't see the post (give if a few seconds to load), remove the "cancel" after x and you will be sent to X instead.
Wow, sure looks like a big tough warrior there!
Prancing Pete, our favorite pretty pony.
Prancing jack ass
At least he's good at something positive.
He is a positively a jack ass
Tim it’s always been ok that the men behave that way and despite Jesus with his weak libtard view of casting stones you can’t let the women get away with it.
All these born again males have to do is say that they have been forgiven by their version of Jesus and all is hunky-dory.
I think li'l petey should humble his know-nothing @ss and sit down. he's one of the many in power that shouldn't be making decisions on what is and isn't recognized as christianity with his ugly past not far behind him. When your own mother writes a letter telling you what a disgrace you are as a man, well...
"This is just a reminder that the more outwardly and ostentatiously religious one is, the higher the probability they're a moral degenerate. "
Indeed.
I remember the Yellow Pages days. Only someone wanting to be ripped off would call a contractor with one of those Jesus fish in their ad.
I always respect your posts, Mike, but be careful... not all outward shows of Christianity are bad, there are some faithful in all walks of life. As leftists, Democrats, liberals... whatever we want to call ourselves, we need to be careful because it is a scornful attitude towards "Christianity" in general that instigates some on the right to demonize us. Stereotypes are almost always unfair and inaccurate when applied to individuals.
You are 100% correct, there are many, many people who's Christianity motivates them to make the world a better place. While I'm no longer religious, I have the deepest respect for those people.
I have found that the people who make the biggest "show" of their beliefs rarely make the world better. Heck, Jesus warned of excessive displays of religion in Matthew 6:6.
Small business people making overt religious appeals are more often phoney-baloney.
I've known some extremely religious folks who bust their rear end to help the least of Jesus' people. I never see that fish on their cars.
You are so right, Jesus told us to pray in our closets so nobody sees us, instead of on street corners like the hypocrites. Thanks for the comment.
I wish I could be there when Pete meets the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
Pete will find out too late that the touch of His Moodley Appendage will not be a gentle one. RAMAN!
Trump, Vance, Hegseth make a mockery out of Christianity and religion in general. Religious folk have a duty to speak up and condemn them.
I suspect this whole religious dust-up won't cost the GOP a single LDS vote.
Indeed. They voted for Based Mike Lee.
As an LDS, I can confirm it will not
Nope, it's just entertainment and content to them, basically. Just a fun thing to watch on TV, Mike Lee talking about how he appealed to Trump to approve his religion and good things are bound to come from it. It might as well be an advertisement.
The biggest point here, one obviously ignored by Hegseth and Trump, is "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." This Administration has absolutely no respect, or even a passing knowledge of, the Constitution. It should be a crime for anyone in government to put their hand on a bible and take an oath to protect something they know nothing about. I think all government employees who take an oath to the Constitution should have to pass a comprehensive exam showing they know what it says and means. We don't do this, and as a consequence, the Oath of Office has become a complete farce.
My late Mormon sister loathed Trump and Republicans from the second Trump opened his mouth at the foot of that escalator.
part of the cult
Once the authoritarian, rightwing theocracy takes over, it will be fun to watch the allies for now fight to the death, but I don’t think they will let people like me survive to see it. The European religious wars of the seventeenth century, which were also religious, led to the deaths of enormous swathes of the population. This was very much on the minds of the founders of the United States who called for tolerance and religious freedom.
You can dismiss Wiccans and others all you want, but I've known a few throughout my life and they run the gamut of believers, just like everyone else - some crazy, some lovely, and all of them Americans.
One of the more humorous moments of my enlisted service was when I had them put "Branch Davidian" on my dog tags as an atheist and everyone thought it was just some random offshoot of evangelical christianity. I still have those tags and it still makes me laugh. I think I only met one senior enlisted person who actually knew who the BDs were and he got a laugh out of it.
And just to be clear this policy change only involved classification of troops for chaplain-ministry purposes--you're still allowed to put anything on your dog tags you want!
While that's the official reason, for all my time in uniform I considered it secondary to who shows up at your loved one's door should the worst happen. When I got married, I changed mine from no religion to my spouse's faith tradition exactly for that reason.
Some real historians in the military, huh?
TOO FUNNY!
The pentagon papered over the cracks and uproar created by their ham handedness, but if I were Mormon I might want to take a hard look at the views of those I thought on the same side. The original designation was no accident. The Hegseth types don’t see the Mormons as *true* Christians is Christians at all. The Mormons have had a long history of persecution in this country and the only real protection is secular liberalism and equal rights for all. They would do well to think a bit on their own reaction and how others excluded for no reason might feel as well. Though a minor blip in the grand scheme, this should remind them Mormons are not fully accepted into the club of white Christian nationalists.
Nor are Catholics.
For being a working class revolt, WASP’s are still preferred in MAGAland.
I remember years ago a Baptist couple with their two kids stop by my house as they were going about witnessing. When I mentioned that I was Catholic, the wife motioned the two kids behind her and the four of them scurried away. I do remember that some Baptist sects were taught that Catholics are anti-Christs. It must have been horrifying to them to have met one in person.
Years ago my very RC neighbor sent her youngest daughter to an evening vacation Bible school run by the Baptist church around the corner, just to get her out of the house. Erica came home and asked her parents what a “whore of Babylon” was, and why was their church one? So Laura laughingly introduced herself to the pastor, who had the *temporary* courtesy to blush. (Our neighborhood is bracketed by two Baptist churches. That one was known as the “mean” one.)
I feel like there is probably a lot of "righteous" congratulations for surviving contact with such evil as a Catholic.
Yes, I moved -- not comfortably and not for long -- in those circles in my late teens. I do owe them a solid grounding in Bible study even though I had doubts about their theological stances.
for centuries the Catholic Church supported secular power, some still do. Many protested and still do.
Or the Orthodox.
Even some Protestant churches aren't seen as Real Christians by Hegseth's church.
And the point is... nobody in government should be making that designation. Whether to believe in some religious doctrine is purely a decision for the individuals who are affected by that decision, and only them.
Can I like this 100,000%? Because that's the truth!
I am often surprised at how many people who most definitely are seen by MAGA as "other", delude themselves into thinking they are the exception to the rule and the In Crowd not only likes them, but considers them part of the In Crowd. They may get a nasty surprise one day and maybe will figure out they have merely been useful idiots to MAGA. A reading of the "First they came" poem attributed to Martin Niemöller might help them see more clearly, but I doubt it.
Despite the fact that Jesus Christ is LITERALLY in the church’s official name! (as Senator Lee pointed out). You can’t make this stuff up.
I bet no Mike Lee voters will change anything at all.
Mona, you have surpassed Bill's abilities to channel the inner thoughts of our dear leader with your ability to channel the J6 insurrectionists. Well Done! LOL.. . . sigh
That was quite good.
“This is mere ipse dixit,” he wrote, meaning offered without evidence.
“Ipse dixit” is the motto of this administration.
As the late, great Groucho Marx once said, "Who are you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?".
You beat me to it! Just a few weeks ago, I found myself posting the assertion that "evidence-free claims are MAGA's stock-in-trade". Many offered a hearty "thumbs-up". Heh.
The LDS business highlights an important aspect of authoritarianism, nobody stays in the tent forever. There are constant purity tests, and eventually you'll be on the outside. It always happens. Pastor Niemoller said it better than I ever could.
When Kevin McCarthy was Speaker of the House, Trump referred to him as "My Kevin." Now that Mike Johnson is Speaker of the House, Trump probably calls him "My Johnson."
I see what you did there! 😀
The Speaker is rather short of stature.
Ha! 😀
A reminder for Kegsbreath and other pseudo-Christians from Rev. Jim Walls: Christianity is not a religion that gives some people a ticket to heaven and makes them judgmental of all others.
Rather, it’s a call to a relationship that changes all our other relationships.
According to some people, apparently, Christianity didn't really start until Theodosius used the power of the state to ban paganism (i.e., traditional religious practices) and enforce particular doctrines as Christian orthodoxy.
many apparently believe that the crucifixion gave them the ticket.
When I joined the military, I put 'Other' on my religious affiliation - the list then was pretty short and didn't include 'Skeptic' which is where I was at the time. The only religion I had any experience with was Seventh-Day Adventist and, in the military, you want to save that for the off chance you decide you want out early. It's quite good for a faith-based discharge since they're all about what Jesus says like 'Turn the other cheek' and 'Love your enemies' and don't much approve of soldiers and war. My mom, who was quite devout, wasn't happy at all with me joining up. Still, the idea that the list is, once again, a laughably short one (hey, isn't it really just 'Christian'?) irks me. Yet again this administration has done the wrong thing. In fact, they do the wrong thing so often it's a shock when something they do is, probably quite accidentally, right. And, hmm, I can't remember what any of them were....
At my dear friend's wake, the display of his dog-tags confirmed that he had indeed listed his religion as "Nordic", with the expectation that his remains would be pushed out to sea in a burning longship. (He was an armor officer in the '80's, so I guess that was an option then? 😉 )
Rest of the story: Last year I loaded his cremated remains into a wooden model ship, and took his children, sister, and some close others sailing into the Gulf of Mexico. We lit him up, shoved him off, and toasted his memory with rhum because I hadn't thought to buy mead. There was not one boring minute in his life, and we hope we helped get his afterlife off to a similar start.
You are a true friend!
If the public at large had been paying more attention to the ins and outs of Section 702 since it was proposed Trump would not be president period and some of the "Democrats don't fight" rhetoric would not exist. There are certainly individual good Democrats like Ron Wyden who have fought on this from the beginning.
LDS voters are both simultaneously moving away from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party while also moving toward Trump. The Evan McMullin types of Republicans that can’t vote either Democrat or for Trump is the group that is shrinking.
Rajeev you just reminded me of something Jeff Flake said about how his LDS church in Arizona had told the original congregation that families on one side of the aisle should be republican and on the other Democrats.