Honestly, Charlie’s coverage of the Israel Hamas war is one of the few things on the Bulwark that I consider misleading to the point of misinformation. The phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is not a pro-Hamas, or antisemitic chant. (Some hints - it’s in English, it doesn’t mention God)
Honestly, Charlie’s coverage of the Israel Hamas war is one of the few things on the Bulwark that I consider misleading to the point of misinformation. The phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is not a pro-Hamas, or antisemitic chant. (Some hints - it’s in English, it doesn’t mention God)
I’m one of those liberal Jews who participates in Palestinian marches in London. And I can say from first hand experience that they are explicitly organized around stopping the violence, and protecting civilians. I have never seen a single sign in favor of Hamas or a single chant about Hamas, death to Israel, or any calls for violence. Maybe this is different in the US, but here the speakers at the event, the people in the crowd and my friends that are Palestinian refugees are all explicitly seeking a return to the 1967 borders as agreed by treaty.
Is that the right solution? I don’t know, but I can say with first hand knowledge that these events are not pro Hamas or anti Jewish.
I saw many Jews at the March in London and we were welcomed with open arms at the March. I don’t claim to know all the answers here, but I can tell you that people chanting “Free Free Palestine” and “From the River to the Sea Palestine Will Be Free” are not the stereotype you’re making them out to be.
This is literally as far fetched as claiming that singing “We Shall Overcome” was a communist call to overthrow America.
Just to be clear (since this is the comments section) - I think the leadership of Hamas are reprehensible pieces of garbage. I hope horrible, horrible things happen to them. But I hate seeing the Bulwark report on world events with the same language and framing as the NY Post.
Submitted with love by a huge fan, who is begging you to send one of your people to one of these matches to see firsthand the actual people, signs and beliefs of the organizers. And until you do that, you should not tell the world that these protests or chants are pro-Hamas when the organizers and participants do not say that and are explicitly stating the opposite.
Finally, I’m sure that somewhere you can find some idiot who does support Hamas online or in person, but they don’t speak for the whole movement which is primarily concerned with: preventing a ground invasion, ending the blockade and returning to internationally agreed upon borders.
"The phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is not a pro-Hamas, or antisemitic chant."
FFS. It's been used by the PLO and Arab nations when talking about the destruction of Israel for decades.
Please, read a history book before making big pronouncements about how the Palestinians just want to live in peace side by side with the Jews. You're really looking ignorant here.
So, the historical use of "from the river to the sea" meaning the destruction of Israel and a single Palestinian (no Jews allowed) state, is suddenly not the case because some new group of Palestinians is using it, but insisting that it doesn't mean what it's always meant?
I guess you thought "The Jews will not replace us!" or "Blood and soil!" chants at UVA meant something completely benign?
PS: "immediate withdrawal of the Israeli state from the occupied Palestinian territory" and "Zionist nature of the Israeli state" means Israel needs to go...
Again - it doesn’t matter what some rando/ you thinks. Words have meaning, and just because you/they are too ignorant to know history, doesn’t change what it means.
Does the phrase from Sea to Shining Sea mean you support the murder of native Americans? I don’t think so, but it also uses the word “sea” and once was used to justify things…
How does "from the river to the sea" not imply the non-existence of a Jewish state in that area?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that both Palestinians *and* Jews should enjoy the right to self-determination in it.
You can be sure that if disciples of the late Meir Kahane were chanting it, no one would misconceive its meaning.
I'm obviously in no position to assess the sincerity of your friends' devotion to a "two state solution," but if they're chanting that slogan at the same time there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on.
I think it’s an evocative slogan that rhymes and is easy to chant. The Jordan River is the border of the West Bank and the sea is the border of Gaza.
I’m not saying that there aren’t some people who want to claim back all the land, but I’m saying that it’s not a term paper or a policy position, it’s just a chant. You can look at the websites of the groups that organize these matches and see their stances. They do have policy papers - but they’re hard to sum up in 9 words that rhyme.
I think the key thing people want is Freedom. All the chants and signs are about freedom.
Right now Gaza is an open air prison where Israel controls the water, food, fuel and internet. I don’t think any American would accept that treatment from Canada - and I think we should lift up the non-violent Palestinian groups instead of saying they’re just as bad as Hamas. (Because you have to negotiate a settlement with someone!)
"I’m not saying that there aren’t some people who want to claim back all the land, but I’m saying that it’s not a term paper or a policy position, it’s just a chant. "
Honestly, Charlie’s coverage of the Israel Hamas war is one of the few things on the Bulwark that I consider misleading to the point of misinformation. The phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is not a pro-Hamas, or antisemitic chant. (Some hints - it’s in English, it doesn’t mention God)
I’m one of those liberal Jews who participates in Palestinian marches in London. And I can say from first hand experience that they are explicitly organized around stopping the violence, and protecting civilians. I have never seen a single sign in favor of Hamas or a single chant about Hamas, death to Israel, or any calls for violence. Maybe this is different in the US, but here the speakers at the event, the people in the crowd and my friends that are Palestinian refugees are all explicitly seeking a return to the 1967 borders as agreed by treaty.
Is that the right solution? I don’t know, but I can say with first hand knowledge that these events are not pro Hamas or anti Jewish.
I saw many Jews at the March in London and we were welcomed with open arms at the March. I don’t claim to know all the answers here, but I can tell you that people chanting “Free Free Palestine” and “From the River to the Sea Palestine Will Be Free” are not the stereotype you’re making them out to be.
This is literally as far fetched as claiming that singing “We Shall Overcome” was a communist call to overthrow America.
Just to be clear (since this is the comments section) - I think the leadership of Hamas are reprehensible pieces of garbage. I hope horrible, horrible things happen to them. But I hate seeing the Bulwark report on world events with the same language and framing as the NY Post.
Submitted with love by a huge fan, who is begging you to send one of your people to one of these matches to see firsthand the actual people, signs and beliefs of the organizers. And until you do that, you should not tell the world that these protests or chants are pro-Hamas when the organizers and participants do not say that and are explicitly stating the opposite.
Finally, I’m sure that somewhere you can find some idiot who does support Hamas online or in person, but they don’t speak for the whole movement which is primarily concerned with: preventing a ground invasion, ending the blockade and returning to internationally agreed upon borders.
Many thanks for your perspective. Nuance is badly needed!
"The phrase “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is not a pro-Hamas, or antisemitic chant."
FFS. It's been used by the PLO and Arab nations when talking about the destruction of Israel for decades.
Please, read a history book before making big pronouncements about how the Palestinians just want to live in peace side by side with the Jews. You're really looking ignorant here.
Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea
Here’s the website of an actual organization currently organizing these marches:
https://palestinecampaign.org/about/
Specifically PSC was established to campaign:
In support of the rights of the Palestinian people and their struggle to achieve these rights.
Against the oppression and dispossession suffered by the Palestinian people.
To promote Palestinian civil society in the interests of democratic rights and social justice.
To oppose Israel’s occupation and its aggression against neighbouring states.
For the right of self-determination for the Palestinian people.
For the right of return of the Palestinian people.
For the immediate withdrawal of the Israeli state from the occupied Palestinian territory.
In opposition to racism, including anti-Jewish prejudice and Islamophobia, and the apartheid and Zionist nature of the Israeli state.
Am I 100% in agreement with this whole position- no. But does this have anything to do with Hamas terrorism? No.
So, the historical use of "from the river to the sea" meaning the destruction of Israel and a single Palestinian (no Jews allowed) state, is suddenly not the case because some new group of Palestinians is using it, but insisting that it doesn't mean what it's always meant?
I guess you thought "The Jews will not replace us!" or "Blood and soil!" chants at UVA meant something completely benign?
PS: "immediate withdrawal of the Israeli state from the occupied Palestinian territory" and "Zionist nature of the Israeli state" means Israel needs to go...
Dude - go to a march and see for yourself. You don’t have to chant, just talk to some actual Palestinian and ask them what they think.
Again - it doesn’t matter what some rando/ you thinks. Words have meaning, and just because you/they are too ignorant to know history, doesn’t change what it means.
See also: The phrase "Push Israel into the sea"
It's from the Six Day War...you know...in 1967
Does the phrase from Sea to Shining Sea mean you support the murder of native Americans? I don’t think so, but it also uses the word “sea” and once was used to justify things…
How does "from the river to the sea" not imply the non-existence of a Jewish state in that area?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean that both Palestinians *and* Jews should enjoy the right to self-determination in it.
You can be sure that if disciples of the late Meir Kahane were chanting it, no one would misconceive its meaning.
I'm obviously in no position to assess the sincerity of your friends' devotion to a "two state solution," but if they're chanting that slogan at the same time there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on.
I think it’s an evocative slogan that rhymes and is easy to chant. The Jordan River is the border of the West Bank and the sea is the border of Gaza.
I’m not saying that there aren’t some people who want to claim back all the land, but I’m saying that it’s not a term paper or a policy position, it’s just a chant. You can look at the websites of the groups that organize these matches and see their stances. They do have policy papers - but they’re hard to sum up in 9 words that rhyme.
I think the key thing people want is Freedom. All the chants and signs are about freedom.
Right now Gaza is an open air prison where Israel controls the water, food, fuel and internet. I don’t think any American would accept that treatment from Canada - and I think we should lift up the non-violent Palestinian groups instead of saying they’re just as bad as Hamas. (Because you have to negotiate a settlement with someone!)
"I’m not saying that there aren’t some people who want to claim back all the land, but I’m saying that it’s not a term paper or a policy position, it’s just a chant. "
Good grief....
If you want to know what these organization want you should actually visit their website and read about the issue instead of condescendingly judging