As always, I wonder how much of the current “Republican disarray” is coming through to the MAGA base, or the right wing voters in general, on their preferred media outlets. I know some of The Bulwark writers (Charlie & Tim?) monitor the right wing media occasionally. That could be an interesting regular but separate feature; it’s hard to…
As always, I wonder how much of the current “Republican disarray” is coming through to the MAGA base, or the right wing voters in general, on their preferred media outlets. I know some of The Bulwark writers (Charlie & Tim?) monitor the right wing media occasionally. That could be an interesting regular but separate feature; it’s hard to understand the effects/consequences of our political paralysis without knowing what (alternative facts) the other half of the country is being fed.
Here's a sampling from a MAGA social media account (acquaintance of mine). All delivered in memes. No substantive written articles from any published source:
Trump won the election, Democrats cheated to win, Democrats too good at hiding the cheat evidence, defund Ukraine, "grooming" school children, commie government, Pelosi refused to call in the National Guard, the Feds set Trump up, RFK Jr., Fani Willis....legal flaws...too numerous to list..., "it may come to a violent overthrow", ABC, CBS, CNN NBC are propaganda channels, defund Ukraine, RFK Jr multiple times,, why we support DonaldTrump: Donald Trump can't be controlled, Is Trump racist? Judge Joe Brown debunks, suspicious timing of indictments, bring back the Fairness Doctrine. All this from August to present. I consider this person representative of a high percentage of a certain red state's population.
Thanks for your research. I always wonder if they have any awareness, below the surface, that those things aren’t true. I’ve only had one relationship (a couple) that gave me a superficial glimpse into their actual baseline, and in this instance they folded right away when countered with facts. I got the impression they were testing ME, by tossing out conspiracy fragments, to see if I was a member. Basically I think they are lazy and bored, so the conspiracy theories solve both issues with minimal effort.
I spent a good bit of time pre-2020 in honest convos with long-time acquaintances about politics--I am a liberal Democrat who grew up in a deep red state. I genuinely wanted to know what their "whys" were. All hell broke loose after Biden won. They genuinely can't see what Biden voters see in Biden. They *really believe, still* that Dems stole the election. All those lost court cases??? The deep state. To answer your question, no, the ones I know have no awareness at all that the things they believe aren't true. The one thing I agree with is that we could sure use some form of the Fairness Doctrine. They think it will enlighten all of us on forums like Bulwark, NYT, WaPo, etc., even Reuters and AP. And if a Fairness Doctrine variant should be implemented and not support their views/beliefs, it will be a corrupt law, a corrupt system. There. Is. Nothing. That. Will. Change. Their. Minds. Why? I refer you to FrameLab:
It's as good an explanation as I've seen. And the people I'm thinking of here are by and large people with college degrees or some college. Successful, even very well off. And one other point: when confronted with facts, the goalposts always move. No evidence to support Dem election cheating? It's because they are too good at hiding it.
So, I’m reading that excellent piece now. I do believe that Trumpism has become an integral part of his supporters’ identity, as is written. So my next question is WHY; why were such a substantial group of people ready in 2016, to have their identities centered on a new force (Trump)? Was there a collective void? Or was a set of established conventional religious beliefs within these individuals booted out to make space for Trumpism? That seems to be the impression of Russell Moore, the Evangelical who has despaired over entire congregations that have supplanted religious doctrine with Trumpism.
I wish I had an answer for that WHY. There could be a variety of reasons. An old friend who is very religious switched from supporting Carson in 2016 to Trump. She asked me what I saw in Biden in 2020 and I told her that he reflected my values. And I went on to use *Republican's* statements about Biden and Trump to contrast the two. Lyndsey Graham: "as good a man as God ever made". (About Biden). Pointed out how T was a serial marriage cheater, stiffed numerous small businesses, somehow managed to bankrupt a casino or two, many failed enterprises, etc. She later seemed to decide that she could not support someone as corrupt and immoral as T. Will she ever support Biden or any other D? Oh, heck no, but not supporting T is good enough. I guess I think Russell Moore has a good take on at least one aspect of the issue.
The contradiction in seeing religious people support the immoral Trump is neatly solved (by them) as some version of “God often chooses imperfect messengers”. Trumpism is so similar to religious ideology in that every angle of logical argument has an answer based on faith, not logic. So argument is futile. As intended.
Russell Moore fascinates me as a rare example, along with Liz Cheney and Adam Kissinger, of someone willing to examine their identity tribe under the bright light of truth and logic. It takes extraordinary moral fiber. My own hasn’t been tested like that. Gulp.
Well, that’s a fairly hopeless (and probably accurate) scenario for winning hearts and minds. I haven’t checked out that link yet - going there next. The psychology of the whole situation intrigues and baffles me. And your personal observations again dispel the common notion, that I’ve often fallen into, that MAGA voters are uneducated rubes of limited means.
I’m definitely familiar with the moving of goalposts. There’s no way to breach that. A standard cult feature.
I guess it’s too late to revive the Fairness Doctrine, for the reason you mention; they would never trust it to be “fair”. And also the media landscape is so much more vast than it was then. But we have made a huge mistake to not have some way of dealing with propaganda; we never would have tolerated it during the WW2 era, and yet now propaganda lies are “free speech”. I’m curious to learn more how the EU deals with online or broadcast propaganda.
Yes, I discovered that the mindset is impervious to anything but their own sources. The "main stream media" is corrupt, in cahoots to deceive us all, and they seem to be proud of "discovering" their alternate reality. As far as dealing with propaganda, I haven't checked it out, but Canada may be a good model to check into also.
The sense of “belonging” has been identified as a strong pull for Trumpism - similar to the pull of gangs in the urban environment. Which can be related to the disappearance of our ‘traditional’ sub-communities, like service organizations and clubs. But that doesn’t help explain why Trumpism is replacing religion, which assumes there was an established community in place, that got subsumed.
It’s good to have the knowledge from that piece, which seems to be gaining wider traction, that it’s a waste of resources to try to change MAGA minds, but instead reach out to new cohorts of voters. That’s in line with something I read that cults don’t die out until the adherents die out - the leader dying isn’t sufficient, obviously. Luckily, I think the average MAGA is a fairly elderly demographic. I hope.
Since so many of them don't want the government to govern or really to function at all, I'm tempted to think that they see it as the way things should be, and not as "disarray". "Disarray" is only undesirable to people who are fundamentally serious.
You have a certain bravery! I’m almost afraid to use my electronic own devices to check it out; I’d have to clear my cache right away.
I’m almost having trouble reading Cassidy Hutchinson’s memoir about her time in the White House; I know the ending, and I feel dirty just reading about these people. But I persist.
And that applies to every crazy motherf***er in the world, but that doesn’t mean I want to engage on a personal level. I’m fine studying them as curiosities, from a safe distance. (Maybe you were being sarcastic.)
You’re right. Reading isn’t engaging. I don’t know why, but it feels illicit to me to go there. Maybe I’m unable to maintain psychological distance. I feel the same about porn, kinda.
Government in disarray is what the MAGA base wants. The real “mandate” MAGA voters gave the GOP was to burn the whole American project to the ground. The House is succeeding with this mandate, and MAGA voters will reward them in 2024.
"The House is succeeding with this mandate, and MAGA voters will reward them in 2024."
-----
I politely disagree. The denizens of the Psychiatric Facility Escapee Caucus, who mostly -- if not all -- come from blood red districts will indeed be rewarded for their performances in political theater. OTOH, the centrists and moderates in swing districts will likely be punished for the antics of the bomb throwers, leading to a very real possabilty that the House flips back to blue in '24.
Good point. The old rules and expectations no longer apply. But those types probably don’t want their Social Security to evaporate, either. They’re like children threatening to run away from home, thinking it’s better out there.
As always, I wonder how much of the current “Republican disarray” is coming through to the MAGA base, or the right wing voters in general, on their preferred media outlets. I know some of The Bulwark writers (Charlie & Tim?) monitor the right wing media occasionally. That could be an interesting regular but separate feature; it’s hard to understand the effects/consequences of our political paralysis without knowing what (alternative facts) the other half of the country is being fed.
If the government shuts down, the military won’t get paid. I have to believe they would notice that.
Here's a sampling from a MAGA social media account (acquaintance of mine). All delivered in memes. No substantive written articles from any published source:
Trump won the election, Democrats cheated to win, Democrats too good at hiding the cheat evidence, defund Ukraine, "grooming" school children, commie government, Pelosi refused to call in the National Guard, the Feds set Trump up, RFK Jr., Fani Willis....legal flaws...too numerous to list..., "it may come to a violent overthrow", ABC, CBS, CNN NBC are propaganda channels, defund Ukraine, RFK Jr multiple times,, why we support DonaldTrump: Donald Trump can't be controlled, Is Trump racist? Judge Joe Brown debunks, suspicious timing of indictments, bring back the Fairness Doctrine. All this from August to present. I consider this person representative of a high percentage of a certain red state's population.
Thanks for your research. I always wonder if they have any awareness, below the surface, that those things aren’t true. I’ve only had one relationship (a couple) that gave me a superficial glimpse into their actual baseline, and in this instance they folded right away when countered with facts. I got the impression they were testing ME, by tossing out conspiracy fragments, to see if I was a member. Basically I think they are lazy and bored, so the conspiracy theories solve both issues with minimal effort.
I spent a good bit of time pre-2020 in honest convos with long-time acquaintances about politics--I am a liberal Democrat who grew up in a deep red state. I genuinely wanted to know what their "whys" were. All hell broke loose after Biden won. They genuinely can't see what Biden voters see in Biden. They *really believe, still* that Dems stole the election. All those lost court cases??? The deep state. To answer your question, no, the ones I know have no awareness at all that the things they believe aren't true. The one thing I agree with is that we could sure use some form of the Fairness Doctrine. They think it will enlighten all of us on forums like Bulwark, NYT, WaPo, etc., even Reuters and AP. And if a Fairness Doctrine variant should be implemented and not support their views/beliefs, it will be a corrupt law, a corrupt system. There. Is. Nothing. That. Will. Change. Their. Minds. Why? I refer you to FrameLab:
https://framelab.substack.com/p/framing-101-some-brains-you-just
It's as good an explanation as I've seen. And the people I'm thinking of here are by and large people with college degrees or some college. Successful, even very well off. And one other point: when confronted with facts, the goalposts always move. No evidence to support Dem election cheating? It's because they are too good at hiding it.
So, I’m reading that excellent piece now. I do believe that Trumpism has become an integral part of his supporters’ identity, as is written. So my next question is WHY; why were such a substantial group of people ready in 2016, to have their identities centered on a new force (Trump)? Was there a collective void? Or was a set of established conventional religious beliefs within these individuals booted out to make space for Trumpism? That seems to be the impression of Russell Moore, the Evangelical who has despaired over entire congregations that have supplanted religious doctrine with Trumpism.
Now I’ll keep reading that piece.
I wish I had an answer for that WHY. There could be a variety of reasons. An old friend who is very religious switched from supporting Carson in 2016 to Trump. She asked me what I saw in Biden in 2020 and I told her that he reflected my values. And I went on to use *Republican's* statements about Biden and Trump to contrast the two. Lyndsey Graham: "as good a man as God ever made". (About Biden). Pointed out how T was a serial marriage cheater, stiffed numerous small businesses, somehow managed to bankrupt a casino or two, many failed enterprises, etc. She later seemed to decide that she could not support someone as corrupt and immoral as T. Will she ever support Biden or any other D? Oh, heck no, but not supporting T is good enough. I guess I think Russell Moore has a good take on at least one aspect of the issue.
The contradiction in seeing religious people support the immoral Trump is neatly solved (by them) as some version of “God often chooses imperfect messengers”. Trumpism is so similar to religious ideology in that every angle of logical argument has an answer based on faith, not logic. So argument is futile. As intended.
Russell Moore fascinates me as a rare example, along with Liz Cheney and Adam Kissinger, of someone willing to examine their identity tribe under the bright light of truth and logic. It takes extraordinary moral fiber. My own hasn’t been tested like that. Gulp.
Agree about "imperfect messengers".
Well, that’s a fairly hopeless (and probably accurate) scenario for winning hearts and minds. I haven’t checked out that link yet - going there next. The psychology of the whole situation intrigues and baffles me. And your personal observations again dispel the common notion, that I’ve often fallen into, that MAGA voters are uneducated rubes of limited means.
I’m definitely familiar with the moving of goalposts. There’s no way to breach that. A standard cult feature.
I guess it’s too late to revive the Fairness Doctrine, for the reason you mention; they would never trust it to be “fair”. And also the media landscape is so much more vast than it was then. But we have made a huge mistake to not have some way of dealing with propaganda; we never would have tolerated it during the WW2 era, and yet now propaganda lies are “free speech”. I’m curious to learn more how the EU deals with online or broadcast propaganda.
Yes, I discovered that the mindset is impervious to anything but their own sources. The "main stream media" is corrupt, in cahoots to deceive us all, and they seem to be proud of "discovering" their alternate reality. As far as dealing with propaganda, I haven't checked it out, but Canada may be a good model to check into also.
The sense of “belonging” has been identified as a strong pull for Trumpism - similar to the pull of gangs in the urban environment. Which can be related to the disappearance of our ‘traditional’ sub-communities, like service organizations and clubs. But that doesn’t help explain why Trumpism is replacing religion, which assumes there was an established community in place, that got subsumed.
It’s good to have the knowledge from that piece, which seems to be gaining wider traction, that it’s a waste of resources to try to change MAGA minds, but instead reach out to new cohorts of voters. That’s in line with something I read that cults don’t die out until the adherents die out - the leader dying isn’t sufficient, obviously. Luckily, I think the average MAGA is a fairly elderly demographic. I hope.
I hope, too. Fervently hope.
Since so many of them don't want the government to govern or really to function at all, I'm tempted to think that they see it as the way things should be, and not as "disarray". "Disarray" is only undesirable to people who are fundamentally serious.
I read Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, Redstate, etc. daily, after I read what I trust.
It's fascinating but rarely surprising.
Use your imagination and you'll likely nail it....
You have a certain bravery! I’m almost afraid to use my electronic own devices to check it out; I’d have to clear my cache right away.
I’m almost having trouble reading Cassidy Hutchinson’s memoir about her time in the White House; I know the ending, and I feel dirty just reading about these people. But I persist.
Huh. I don't relate to that, frankly. Those crazy motherf***ers are people, too.
And that applies to every crazy motherf***er in the world, but that doesn’t mean I want to engage on a personal level. I’m fine studying them as curiosities, from a safe distance. (Maybe you were being sarcastic.)
I was not but a teensy bit wiseass, yeah.
I don't think reading articles counts as engagement. If it does, I'm engaging way, way too much!
You’re right. Reading isn’t engaging. I don’t know why, but it feels illicit to me to go there. Maybe I’m unable to maintain psychological distance. I feel the same about porn, kinda.
Very interesting. I know it's not most people's thing. I guess it matters enough to me to do it myself.
As long as you don’t end up on blood pressure medicine.
I’m glad you do.
Government in disarray is what the MAGA base wants. The real “mandate” MAGA voters gave the GOP was to burn the whole American project to the ground. The House is succeeding with this mandate, and MAGA voters will reward them in 2024.
"The House is succeeding with this mandate, and MAGA voters will reward them in 2024."
-----
I politely disagree. The denizens of the Psychiatric Facility Escapee Caucus, who mostly -- if not all -- come from blood red districts will indeed be rewarded for their performances in political theater. OTOH, the centrists and moderates in swing districts will likely be punished for the antics of the bomb throwers, leading to a very real possabilty that the House flips back to blue in '24.
fnord
Good point. The old rules and expectations no longer apply. But those types probably don’t want their Social Security to evaporate, either. They’re like children threatening to run away from home, thinking it’s better out there.