You are correct that just blaming isn’t going to accomplish much if no responsibility is taken.
But we already know that the Rs stopped being patriots (in addition to a host of other problems). They aren’t going to change. They appear to be set on destroying our democracy, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.
So the Rs aren’t going change and the Ds don’t change in response, we are going to wind up with more of the same. Which right now is a really bleak proposition.
"Dems have always been weaker in that they keep thinking the other side will come to see how unfair but they never do." This is actually you blaming the D's just like I am. I blame both groups really. Conservatives for putting party over country and liberals for putting social cohesion and decadence over principled fighting. Hence the usage of "we" in the OP. *We* own everything we're living through now. Can't put it all on the GOP when the dems have had no backbone on just about any issue outside of when George Floyd was murdered and the LGBTQ+ crowd wanted equality. I mean really, outside of marriage equality and BLM, what exactly have liberal voters actually fought with the same intensity that conservative voters fight their fights with? That's the liberal decadence that paved the way for conservatives to get away with everything they've been pushing for the last 20 years. Liberals ignored the need to *fight* politically on issues like gun control and combating domestic terrorism. Now their political enemies have allllll the guns and political militias and I don't see a new AWB coming to us anytime soon.
Trumpers have all the tools they need at their disposal to take the country by force and end democracy, and liberals gave it to them on a silver platter and then got shook when J6 happened. What did you guys think was going to happen when you ignored this problem for 15 years?
"What exactly have liberal voters actually fought for with the same intensity that conservatives fight their fights with?"
Ending slavery, civil rights, abortion rights, labor rights etc.
What more do you need? What is it you want liberal voters to do to make you think they are fighting with intensity?
I believe you are exaggerating (not purposefully) the amount of intensity conservative voters have. I read extremely right-wing sites too (i.e. Free Republic) and they make this same complaint about their voters compared to liberal voters.
I mean you're kind of making my point for me. You have to go back to other generations of liberals to find the ones who fought with the kind of intensity my generation of liberals lacked. When I speak about intensity I'm talking about how quickly they cave, and I'm talking about the voters--not the pols. Conservatives blame their pols for not being extreme enough and they're still pulling them further. Liberals have been moderate in terms of compromise the entirety of my adulthood dating back to 2003. Their voters *and* their pols. The sole issues that liberal voters came out in force on were LGBTQ+ equality and BLM. From 2001 until present.
Correct. But at least you guys put in work while you were young before you became decadent boot-lickers of the low-tax/high-growth model that gave us the economic inequality we live with today. My generation was born into its decadence, and frankly didn't do much when called to national politics until the economic inequality got so bad that it gave us OWS and the police brutality got so bad that it gave us BLM. It was only *after* my generation got slapped in the face with the inequality cultivated by your generation that we collectively got off of our asses and did something. But between the 60's and OWS in '11, liberals let a LOT of things slide in economics, policing, foreign policy, and national culture (guns, etc.). Now we're dealing with the fallout of them not fighting hard enough when these problems were small. Now these ignored problems are enormous.
So what will help our democracy? I see Republicans getting denigrated everywhere on the daily and it hasn’t done much to slow their roll up to this point. In fact, they appear to be doubling down on the crazy and paying no price for it.
I’m not sure talking up how powerful Ds are is going to get the Ds to start fighting in a way that actually makes a difference.
It’s clear to me by now that nothing is going to get the Rs to change so my best hope is that the Ds change and adapt to the new reality.
Well, of course I would agree with that! But I don’t think that’s likely to happen unless the Ds change their messaging along with some strategic and tactical changes.
The current status quo would seem to indicate that the Rs aren’t in danger of going anywhere. I don’t understand it but that seems to be the reality.
If we can't learn why we failed for the last five decades then how can we hope to win in the coming battles? Preparation for a fight is half the battle, and understanding that your side sucks at that part is how you *start* to get better at it. Refusing to acknowledge previous failures does nothing to prepare you for future trials either. It's just more of the same tactics being reintroduced without self-examination in the aftermath of the previous trials.
Comparisons are how you demonstrate the advantages/disadvantages of differing approaches. When those comparisons don't go your way, you can always change your tactics after comparing yourself to others who are more successful than you at performing the same tasks. Failing to change is failing to adapt, and Darwin told us some centuries ago what happens to groups that fail to adapt to their changing environments.
You are correct that just blaming isn’t going to accomplish much if no responsibility is taken.
But we already know that the Rs stopped being patriots (in addition to a host of other problems). They aren’t going to change. They appear to be set on destroying our democracy, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.
So the Rs aren’t going change and the Ds don’t change in response, we are going to wind up with more of the same. Which right now is a really bleak proposition.
Yes, the Democrat's biggest weakness is they constantly expect Republicans to behave like decent people.
I mean, that *is* a weakness given the context. "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me."
"Dems have always been weaker in that they keep thinking the other side will come to see how unfair but they never do." This is actually you blaming the D's just like I am. I blame both groups really. Conservatives for putting party over country and liberals for putting social cohesion and decadence over principled fighting. Hence the usage of "we" in the OP. *We* own everything we're living through now. Can't put it all on the GOP when the dems have had no backbone on just about any issue outside of when George Floyd was murdered and the LGBTQ+ crowd wanted equality. I mean really, outside of marriage equality and BLM, what exactly have liberal voters actually fought with the same intensity that conservative voters fight their fights with? That's the liberal decadence that paved the way for conservatives to get away with everything they've been pushing for the last 20 years. Liberals ignored the need to *fight* politically on issues like gun control and combating domestic terrorism. Now their political enemies have allllll the guns and political militias and I don't see a new AWB coming to us anytime soon.
Trumpers have all the tools they need at their disposal to take the country by force and end democracy, and liberals gave it to them on a silver platter and then got shook when J6 happened. What did you guys think was going to happen when you ignored this problem for 15 years?
"What exactly have liberal voters actually fought for with the same intensity that conservatives fight their fights with?"
Ending slavery, civil rights, abortion rights, labor rights etc.
What more do you need? What is it you want liberal voters to do to make you think they are fighting with intensity?
I believe you are exaggerating (not purposefully) the amount of intensity conservative voters have. I read extremely right-wing sites too (i.e. Free Republic) and they make this same complaint about their voters compared to liberal voters.
I mean you're kind of making my point for me. You have to go back to other generations of liberals to find the ones who fought with the kind of intensity my generation of liberals lacked. When I speak about intensity I'm talking about how quickly they cave, and I'm talking about the voters--not the pols. Conservatives blame their pols for not being extreme enough and they're still pulling them further. Liberals have been moderate in terms of compromise the entirety of my adulthood dating back to 2003. Their voters *and* their pols. The sole issues that liberal voters came out in force on were LGBTQ+ equality and BLM. From 2001 until present.
Correct. But at least you guys put in work while you were young before you became decadent boot-lickers of the low-tax/high-growth model that gave us the economic inequality we live with today. My generation was born into its decadence, and frankly didn't do much when called to national politics until the economic inequality got so bad that it gave us OWS and the police brutality got so bad that it gave us BLM. It was only *after* my generation got slapped in the face with the inequality cultivated by your generation that we collectively got off of our asses and did something. But between the 60's and OWS in '11, liberals let a LOT of things slide in economics, policing, foreign policy, and national culture (guns, etc.). Now we're dealing with the fallout of them not fighting hard enough when these problems were small. Now these ignored problems are enormous.
Tbf, when we fight really hard for something everyone calls us progressive socialists that are going to end up destroying the party/country. :shrug:
This sounds like an old guy complaining about kids not doing things like "back in my day". ;D
So what will help our democracy? I see Republicans getting denigrated everywhere on the daily and it hasn’t done much to slow their roll up to this point. In fact, they appear to be doubling down on the crazy and paying no price for it.
I’m not sure talking up how powerful Ds are is going to get the Ds to start fighting in a way that actually makes a difference.
It’s clear to me by now that nothing is going to get the Rs to change so my best hope is that the Ds change and adapt to the new reality.
Well, of course I would agree with that! But I don’t think that’s likely to happen unless the Ds change their messaging along with some strategic and tactical changes.
The current status quo would seem to indicate that the Rs aren’t in danger of going anywhere. I don’t understand it but that seems to be the reality.
If we can't learn why we failed for the last five decades then how can we hope to win in the coming battles? Preparation for a fight is half the battle, and understanding that your side sucks at that part is how you *start* to get better at it. Refusing to acknowledge previous failures does nothing to prepare you for future trials either. It's just more of the same tactics being reintroduced without self-examination in the aftermath of the previous trials.
Comparisons are how you demonstrate the advantages/disadvantages of differing approaches. When those comparisons don't go your way, you can always change your tactics after comparing yourself to others who are more successful than you at performing the same tasks. Failing to change is failing to adapt, and Darwin told us some centuries ago what happens to groups that fail to adapt to their changing environments.