Here's the thing. For years now, activists have been screaming "Where's the evidence this is a problem?" Predictably, now that we have the evidence, they haven't stopped screaming. You can reduce testosterone levels; it won't change the advantages in size and lung capacity that have accrued in undergoing puberty. And I would dispute …
Here's the thing. For years now, activists have been screaming "Where's the evidence this is a problem?" Predictably, now that we have the evidence, they haven't stopped screaming. You can reduce testosterone levels; it won't change the advantages in size and lung capacity that have accrued in undergoing puberty. And I would dispute that the required T levels for transwomen are lower than normal levels for women.
What evidence is there? Trans women have been allowed to compete for years. There's no massive trans conspiracy forcing cis women out of women's sports. These bills are bills in search of a problem.
Maybe all the people parroting right wing media trans hate (masquerading as concern about female athletes) are unfamiliar with Renee Richards, a famous trans athlete from the 70's.
What is so suspicious about this sudden "concern" about trans athletes is that it's totally political. Trans athletes are governed by rules and regulations from sports authorities.
We don't need Tucker Carlson's "expertise" or that of Republican state legislators, who've already crapped the bed when it came to crazy abortion laws.
1) Trans women athletes are not a new thing, therefore don't require any outrage; 2) an example of a trans woman (who transitioned in adulthood) who didn't beat her opponent.
Lia Thomas is irrelevant now, so use Renee Richards as an example if you absolutely must discuss this subject as if it were a political issue (which you don't, nor does anyone else outside the duly constituted sports authorities; and it isn't).
I think it's because it's not viewed as an issue of fairness in that case. Which is why constantly being called bigots and transphobes by folks on the fringes, when we're really motivated by fairness, not hate, gets pretty old.
There is no conspiracy. There doesn't need to be one.
I know you're aware of Lia Thomas. The 500th ranked male collegiate swimmer suddenly becomes the number one ranked female collegiate swimmer, and this isn't a cause for concern? Her teammates have to voice their concerns off the record to rightwing outlets because mainstream outlets won't listen, and because they're afraid of retaliation?
And for the vast majority of Americans, it just seems obvious that none of this is fair, no matter how much bad science activists cite to bolster their claims. This is not a hill for anyone to die on, putting women's rights behind those of a small percentage of biological men. Women have been getting shafted by men since Adam and Eve, and this is not as progressive an attitude as progressives seem to think it is.
In the 2018–2019 season Lia was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
And when Lia went on HRT while she was still competing in the male divisions, she underwent a huge *fall* in the rankings, as I explicitly said in the third paragraph of my original post.
> Now, eventually, there would be an AMAB athlete at the highest levels who decided to transition. The HRT would destroy her upper body strength, because that's one of the many things HRT does, and she would fall far behind her male competitors while she still had to compete with them, and by the time she was allowed to compete against women, she would have a thoroughly mediocre recent record. Then when - if - she ever started competing at the highest level again, the story would be 'man can't hack it, goes to women's league to dominate the poor girls there'.
Right there.
Anyways, your evidence that trans women are pushing cis women out of sports is... one swimmer.
On the exact same amount of evidence, I could say that being named 'Diana Taurasi' is obviously an unfair advantage to being the WNBA scoring leader. And that's nothing compared to how many people whose names start with 'T' are at the top of this chart. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1237068/wnba-scoring-leaders/ Why won't the NCAA crack down on this T-initial crisis?
My recollection was the NCAA punted regarding the guidelines, the guidelines were tightened up by the receiver of the punt, then the NCAA ignored the new guidelines.
I think propagandists would skip the "my recollection" part and just assert it as fact. Regardless, yes, the NCAA punted to USA Swimming, saying they would adopt their policy, but they didn't have a policy, so they had to come up with one, and the policy they came up with included 36 months of testosterone suppression. That timeframe disqualified Lia. So, the NCAA ignored their policy and let Lia swim anyway.
He is not asserting that Lia needs to be first every time. In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
I think it’s really about creating division in American politics, using a very small, vulnerable group which lacks a constituency to defend them. Cruelty is a side “benefit”. And in terms of that goal of division, it has been wildly successful in bringing out the worst.
Here's the thing. For years now, activists have been screaming "Where's the evidence this is a problem?" Predictably, now that we have the evidence, they haven't stopped screaming. You can reduce testosterone levels; it won't change the advantages in size and lung capacity that have accrued in undergoing puberty. And I would dispute that the required T levels for transwomen are lower than normal levels for women.
What evidence is there? Trans women have been allowed to compete for years. There's no massive trans conspiracy forcing cis women out of women's sports. These bills are bills in search of a problem.
Maybe all the people parroting right wing media trans hate (masquerading as concern about female athletes) are unfamiliar with Renee Richards, a famous trans athlete from the 70's.
What is so suspicious about this sudden "concern" about trans athletes is that it's totally political. Trans athletes are governed by rules and regulations from sports authorities.
We don't need Tucker Carlson's "expertise" or that of Republican state legislators, who've already crapped the bed when it came to crazy abortion laws.
What about Renee Richards? I'm familiar with her.
1) Trans women athletes are not a new thing, therefore don't require any outrage; 2) an example of a trans woman (who transitioned in adulthood) who didn't beat her opponent.
Lia Thomas is irrelevant now, so use Renee Richards as an example if you absolutely must discuss this subject as if it were a political issue (which you don't, nor does anyone else outside the duly constituted sports authorities; and it isn't).
Richards transitioned in her forties. That's well past the prime of any female tennis player in the 1970s. And she still beat a lot of women players.
I wonder why nobody talks about trans men competing with men.
I think it's because it's not viewed as an issue of fairness in that case. Which is why constantly being called bigots and transphobes by folks on the fringes, when we're really motivated by fairness, not hate, gets pretty old.
There is no conspiracy. There doesn't need to be one.
I know you're aware of Lia Thomas. The 500th ranked male collegiate swimmer suddenly becomes the number one ranked female collegiate swimmer, and this isn't a cause for concern? Her teammates have to voice their concerns off the record to rightwing outlets because mainstream outlets won't listen, and because they're afraid of retaliation?
And for the vast majority of Americans, it just seems obvious that none of this is fair, no matter how much bad science activists cite to bolster their claims. This is not a hill for anyone to die on, putting women's rights behind those of a small percentage of biological men. Women have been getting shafted by men since Adam and Eve, and this is not as progressive an attitude as progressives seem to think it is.
"I know you're aware of Lia Thomas. The 500th ranked male collegiate swimmer suddenly becomes the number one ranked female collegiate swimmer"
36th. She's ranked 36th. She won the 400m. Was middling in a lot of other ones.
Thank you for the correction.
That's still a huge leap in rankings.
In the 2018–2019 season Lia was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
And when Lia went on HRT while she was still competing in the male divisions, she underwent a huge *fall* in the rankings, as I explicitly said in the third paragraph of my original post.
> Now, eventually, there would be an AMAB athlete at the highest levels who decided to transition. The HRT would destroy her upper body strength, because that's one of the many things HRT does, and she would fall far behind her male competitors while she still had to compete with them, and by the time she was allowed to compete against women, she would have a thoroughly mediocre recent record. Then when - if - she ever started competing at the highest level again, the story would be 'man can't hack it, goes to women's league to dominate the poor girls there'.
Right there.
Anyways, your evidence that trans women are pushing cis women out of sports is... one swimmer.
On the exact same amount of evidence, I could say that being named 'Diana Taurasi' is obviously an unfair advantage to being the WNBA scoring leader. And that's nothing compared to how many people whose names start with 'T' are at the top of this chart. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1237068/wnba-scoring-leaders/ Why won't the NCAA crack down on this T-initial crisis?
After Lia Thomas, the guidelines for participation for trans athletes were tightened up, so Lia Thomas is no longer germane to this discussion.
Please pass it on to others who are similarly not up to date.
My recollection was the NCAA punted regarding the guidelines, the guidelines were tightened up by the receiver of the punt, then the NCAA ignored the new guidelines.
"My recollection" is often used by propagandists to spread disinformation. It would be best to look it up before writing. This looks like an NCAA punt. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/ncaas-new-trans-athlete-guidelines-sow-confusion-lia-thomas-debate-rcna13073
I think propagandists would skip the "my recollection" part and just assert it as fact. Regardless, yes, the NCAA punted to USA Swimming, saying they would adopt their policy, but they didn't have a policy, so they had to come up with one, and the policy they came up with included 36 months of testosterone suppression. That timeframe disqualified Lia. So, the NCAA ignored their policy and let Lia swim anyway.
Lia was in the pool, right?
He is not asserting that Lia needs to be first every time. In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554 in the 200 freestyle, 65 in the 500 freestyle, and 32 in the 1650 freestyle. In the 2021–2022 season, those ranks are now, when competing in the women's team, 5 in the 200 freestyle, first in the 500 freestyle, and eight in the 1650 freestyle.
I think it’s really about creating division in American politics, using a very small, vulnerable group which lacks a constituency to defend them. Cruelty is a side “benefit”. And in terms of that goal of division, it has been wildly successful in bringing out the worst.