436 Comments
User's avatar
Lewis Grotelueschen's avatar

“Nobody here at the White House, including the president of the United States, wants to see Americans hurt or killed,”

Well, that's big of you.

Kim Nesvig's avatar

Of course, we know that is another entirely false statement. I’m struggling to come up with the name of anyone in this regime who doesn’t take pleasure in the injury or death of others.

Steven Westberg's avatar

Every time I see Karoline Leavitt speak, I hear in my head what one writer once said of another: "Every word she says is a lie, including 'and' and 'the.'"

Sara Smith's avatar

One of my favorite quotes - Mary McCarthy, I believe, speaking of Lillian Hellman. (Notice which one of them is the better known today.)

Dave Yell's avatar

Sweet Karoline's White House pressers are like fingernails on a blackboard.

James Byham's avatar

If ignorance is bliss she's one happy sweetie pie.

Ian Lasby's avatar

RFK only causes the death of children through idiocy. I guess that counts… barely. He does like cutting up animal corpses though.

Dave's avatar

That man ain't right in the head

Dave Yell's avatar

and talking to his ravens

Carrie Dahlquist's avatar

Donald Trump - ONLY until it disrupts his PR and they falter in the messaging battle.

Robert Jaffee's avatar

True that! We can easily see the crocodile tears based on how this administration and MAGA reacted to the Whitmer attempted kidnapping and execution. Paul Pelosi’s deranged attack by a MAGA psychopath. The two assassinations of Minnesota state representatives, etc……

Any questions?….:)

Thomas Johnson's avatar

And don't forget Rob Reiner...

Jeff the Original's avatar

Yes...killings hurt Trump's ratings...so, of course, they don't want that.

Rob Krumm's avatar

Well most of the deaths he has caused don't hurt his ratings. His initial reaction was to pile on the blame the victim mantra. He hasn't said anything, which I guess tells you that his minions were caught upprepoared when the house of lies didn't stand up. Vance, who was so anxious to take the lead on this, has disappeared. Let's she how very dumb Tom Homan fair with his cover-up. I hope they play the tapes of him saying just a few days ago that DHS was going weverything right. By the way, has Mike Johnson been kidnapped by Satanist? Where is he?

Jeff the Original's avatar

Well...maybe not the killings per se...but the jumping to conclusions without and investigation is certainly taking its toll. Lots of people speaking out...including some GOP folks.

James Byham's avatar

But every day is a new episode of the trumpy show ! 🙄🌊

Claudia Allred's avatar

We used to say…”that’s white of you”. That means so much more today.

Dave's avatar

Haha I just used that statement to a MAGA person on X a couple weeks ago

James Byham's avatar

Mighty white , haven't thought about that in a long time.

Claudia Allred's avatar

I hesitated to use the word “mighty”, which was what we casually threw about, because it sounds so callous these days. But in this case, the shoe fits! (or as I used to say “foo s**ts). 😐💙🇺🇸

ME's avatar

Cheers to the White male outrage Reagan and Limbaugh revived in the 80s

julia dream's avatar

From 2016 (all over the Internet): ""I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" Trump remarked at a campaign stop at Dordt College in Sioux Center, Iowa. "It's, like, incredible." BTW: Dordt University is conservative Christian Reformed (Canons of Dordt, if that rings a bell).

Carol S.'s avatar

The most shocking thing about that statement was that Trump voters were not offended by it -- not by what it said about him, or by what it suggested about them.

Steven Westberg's avatar

Trump's statement, above, is the *only* truthful thing he's ever said.

Weswolf's avatar

It wasn't exactly truthful. He'd get someone else to pull the trigger. He'd also take credit only if he thought it would boost his approval. Otherwise, he wouldn't know a thing about it, and anyone who remembered hearing him order the shooting would be FAKE NEWS.

ERNEST HOLBURT's avatar

He has said other truthful things, like wanting to be a dictator on Day One.

Ian Lasby's avatar

Won’t someone please think of the real victims here our precious ICE goons. Will no one speak about all the mean words said about our beloved goons?

Lewis Grotelueschen's avatar

Bovino looks like he belongs is some porn subgenre about miniature nazis.

Weswolf's avatar

He could borrow the name a meme gives him: Four Foot Nein.

LHS's avatar

Rick Wilson has called him the Keebler Nazi.

James Byham's avatar

Oh help me ! 🤣🌊

Robert Jaffee's avatar

He’s is definitely straight out of Nazi central casting. He looks completely innocuous; yet under his Hugo Boss Nazi—Border Patrol leather trench coat, lies a dangerous malignant sociopath, to say the least!…:)

Steven Westberg's avatar

"some porn subgenre about miniature nazis"

This comment made me laugh out loud

Clay Banes's avatar

To Europeanize it, add an -o: "Some porno subgenre about miniature Nazis."

Ian Lasby's avatar

In that porn he would be catching. Just saying.

Lance Cherry's avatar

He definitely has a good measure of Little Dick Syndrome...

Deb's avatar

Definitely micro dick.

Al Keim's avatar

Hair gel is the perfect touch.

James Byham's avatar

With crusty and blondie teaching them about discipline and order.

DK's avatar

Yes, can't we find some compassion for the maligned billionaires AND the goons on the streets? Surely our hearts are big enough for this?

Ian Lasby's avatar

First they made fun of Bovino for looking like he’s auditioning for Himmler in springtime for Hitler and I said nothing.

Ian Lasby's avatar

Like an angel. Nothing made him happier than dancing in that big swastika.

Mary Brownell's avatar

Remember, we must also have compassion for all the poor white men who are now discriminated against because of civil rights for brown and black men and all women.

I was on a volunteer team at church with a woman who told me her son left the navy submarine service because an African American man got a promotion that should have been his. She went on to tell me about the wonderful job he now has in Germany and how much he and his wife appreciate the subsidized child care and free medical care they have there. I'm sure she had no sense of irony, and didn't for a moment put all those wonderful social services together with the safety net in the "socialist" European Union.

James Byham's avatar

Mmmmm not mine.

James Byham's avatar

Is there widdle feelings hurt ?

Boo hoo.

A Boy Named Pseu(donym)'s avatar

It's truly sad when the bar is low enough that we're relieved to hear the administration doesn't actually *want* to kill people. But I guess the abusive partner "look what you made me do" posture at least shows a modicum of remorse, as opposed to the administration's previous "FAFO" stance.

Mike Lew's avatar

It's true. They don't want to "see" the actual cruelty. They just want it to occur in shadows.

bitchybitchybitchy's avatar

Golly gee whiz, Miss Leavitt! That's so...White of you!

OJVV's avatar

"I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" Donald Trump

Now see...here's where I was mistaken. I assumed he was referring to an American Citizen.

Clammer31's avatar

Recalling Baghdad Bob. Pure nostalgic absurdity.

Chris Hocker's avatar

The evolution of Andrew Egger, now calling people nihilistic shitheels, is fascinating. Love it.

Andrew Egger's avatar

I'm trying to quit

Mary Brownell's avatar

Don't quit, Andrew. Keep up the good work and your clear-eyed analysis.

Greg WF's avatar

No Andrew. The Dark Side beckons. Don’t listen to the hypocrites. You don’t know the righteous outcomes that can be obtained through judicious use of the Dark Side of the Force!

Anne's avatar

Be true to yourself, or you might explode. :-D

ME's avatar

Quit what? Hopefully not reporting and sharing your analyses

Andrew Egger's avatar

calling people "nihilistic shitheels"!

FareDaze62's avatar

Please don't, someone needs to call them that.

zedsdead's avatar

If the shoe fits

Linda Odell's avatar

No, no, no. Keep it up. Your vocabulary is exquisite.

steve robertshaw's avatar

I personally have enjoyed JVL's transition from meek and mild analytical columnist to something like a hell-raising fed-up chronicler of chaos!

Al Keim's avatar

A veritable Madam Defarge.

James Byham's avatar

Kinda like Peter Finch in the movie Network.

Justin Lee's avatar

Andrew is young. How about Bill Kristol's evolution? He's calling for ICE to be abolished! He's calling on Democrats to shut the government if necessary!

Michelle Togut's avatar

I'm old enough to remember Bill from his Dan Quayle days. Eek! He's definitely earned my respect over the last few years, even though there's plenty of things I disagree with him him about. Bravo Bill!

Dave Yell's avatar

I remember him when he would appear often on This week with David Brinkley. I didn't agree with some of what he said, but I liked his self deprecating warm demeanor.

Liz B's avatar

My father met Bill Kristol briefly back in his Dan Quayle days, on a mission to beg for support for Croatians during their war against Serbia. I never heard much about Quayle, but he said Kristol was friendly, intelligent, and pragmatic.

Dave Yell's avatar

Those are the qualities I like in Bill. Still Crazy after all these years! :)

James Byham's avatar

They took the nazis and their votes for granted and then were overwhelmed and displaced by them. I would be amused if the results weren't so catastrophic.

Greg WF's avatar

Times they are a changin!

Kate Fall's avatar

We've all evolved. I'm out here begging my Democratic reps to listen to Bill Kristol.

Oregon Larry's avatar

Amen! As a wild leftist liberal, I am appalled to find the people I mostly yell "right on" at the computer screen/TV are escaped Republicans, like Sarah and Tim and others. They understand the gravity of what's happening and have the clarity of thought and oratory skill to express it. Dems, with a few exceptions like Bernie (I know, not a Dem), AOL, and Sen. Murphy, seem to be unable to comprehend the times. Like my feckless Gov. Kotek! I'm frustrated.

Clay Banes's avatar

Democratic leaders don't show evidence yet that they understand that their party MUST win both the House and the Senate this fall. That they should drop their clichés of fan-service to their base and the MS NOW audience and speak plainly and directly to all Americans NOW.

Dave Yell's avatar

Add Mark Kelly to your list.

Oregon Larry's avatar

Agree, there are several others, like Ro Khanna, Adam Smith, Robert Garcia, Jason Crowe, Corey Booker, and more. But compared to the magnitude of the danger to our republic and freedoms, it's angrifyingly small.

Dave Yell's avatar

I thought I would keep it short!

Rosie's avatar

There are many more in politics to add to that list. How about these, as a starter: JD Pritzker, Shapiro, The governor of Maine, Walz,

Ruben Gallego, Robert Garcia, Ro Khanna, Jeff Merkley, VanHollen, Chris Coons. They understand the gravity and speak out.

There's a difference between calling out when you're a journalist/ex-politician, never Trumper reformed republican and being in office right now. The Bulwark folks get to write and talk all day long. That's their only job. And kudos to them for featuring these Dems in articles and interviews that are fighting the fight.

WDD's avatar

Thank you OL. "Escaped Republicans" may be the framing that helps some friends and family honor their increasing unease with true MAGA.

James Byham's avatar

I know, same here, it's very weird.

Heidi Richman's avatar

“Resistance lib” Kristol does a much better job of covering the opposition than the mediocre journalist they hired to cover that beat!

LHS's avatar

I'm saying I would take W and Dick Cheney back. 😭

OJVV's avatar

It's saying something when Darth Vader is a more appealing leader than those currently in power.

RedRover's avatar

People! It’s not like Andrew started out as a lump of clay here!

Greg WF's avatar

So you claim!!!

Andrew Egger's avatar

Dust you are, and to dust you will return.

Sara Smith's avatar

JVL’s influence, no doubt

Colleen Kochivar-Baker's avatar

More likely Tim Miller, at least for the descriptive language.

Steve's avatar
3hEdited

My impression is that Andrew has always had a way with words. If his rhetorical tone has shifted, I would guess that this mainly reflects him becoming more comfortable with The Bulwark's particular style -- which a writer couldn't get away with at a lot of other publications.

Andrew Egger's avatar

No, alas, I am just getting meaner.

Oblique Irony's avatar

The line a while back about Trump wanting to "zhuzh up some columns" at the Kennedy Center had me chuckling to myself for two weeks.

Justin Lee's avatar

We're all getting meaner. I've opposed capital punishment my whole life, and on JVL's newsletter calling for Nuremberg trials, I commented that we should do the trials and the hangings on the same day. Guess I'm a squish on that issue.

OJVV's avatar

Wiser, Andrew. Wiser.

jeffChill's avatar

These are the times that try writers' souls.

James Byham's avatar

Cool ! Let it flow bro.

Dave Yell's avatar

A young George Will with the language!

Sumeeta's avatar

I am, however, annoyed by his disdain for disruptive forms of nonviolent direct action. Strongly worded newsletters don’t affect a regime that doesn’t believe it needs the consent of the governed. The governed operationalizing their dissent by denying these goons a moment’s peace to eat, sleep, or pee during their deployment is the mildest of the languages they understand.

Andrew Egger's avatar

"Strongly worded newsletters don't affect a regime that doesn't believe it needs the consent of the governed" is literally a point I make one paragraph before the paragraph you didn't like!

Sumeeta's avatar

I guess I’m not clear then on what you consider the limit of acceptable escalation.

Noise outside a hotel at night is not violence, and that’s the tactic organizers out there have been deploying to pretty good effect. I had to look back at yesterday’s newsletter to infer that last night went beyond that to include either some property destruction or attempted entry of the hotel, which I would agree are a different and more questionable level. But it’s a fairly subtle distinction and without clearly stating it, it came across to me as any disruptive gathering at all being branded a “mob.” Which is not much different from DHS calling people blowing whistles and yelling “rioters”.

EUWDTB's avatar

It's too easy. It means assuming that certain people don't have any moral values. If anything, that IS what a fascist ideology truly believes. Fascists even believe that most people are weak and mediocre. That's why "the best" (= the ones strong enough to face this "fact") need to impose their will on everyone else, they argue.

If you have an idea of what a "good society" looks like and then fight like hell to install it, you're not a nihilist. You simply have moral values based on assumptions about human nature that are incompatible with the assumptions that democracy is built on.

We should address and refute fascist assumptions, rather than trying to make ourselves believe that these people are so "not human" that they don't even have a sense of good and bad anymore...

Dave Yell's avatar

That is what happens when you hang around Tim and JVL.

LHS's avatar

I was thinking that would make a great name for a punk group.

OJVV's avatar
2hEdited

Given that Andrew works with someone who often strikes a similar tone and is labeled as "always right"...Is it hard to imagine why he'd revise his tone?

Ashley's avatar

Every single Democrat in the House should be in Minnesota right now.

And every single Democrat in the Senate better be ready to shut down the government.

Alex Pretti was the helper Mr. Rogers told us to look towards. The people of Minneapolis are reminding us that we have constitutional rights in this country, and we better use them.

The Democrats either do every single thing in their power to stop this while reminding everyone that their own colleagues on the other side of the aisle are complicit or we will vote them out and replace them with ones who will.

We’re not ready to make nice, and we’re not going to back down.

Dan Leithauser's avatar

Those same democrats are probably and improperly collectively sighing relief from their warm homes and offices this morning. "Oh Trump is doing something!" We don't need to give into our constituents telling us that "strongly worded letters" and statements are not enough. They should be in Minnesota without obvious security details following them around. In the streets. With the people. There is no sigh of relief. That is exactly what Trump and his psychos want. A pause. No. There is no pause going on in Stephen Miller's head, as he hides in his heated secure military base accommodations. Detention facilities are still seeking leases in multiple areas. Corporations providing accommodations and services to these goons? The media coverage?

Mary Brownell's avatar

I like the idea of the elected Democrats on the streets with their "obvious security details following them around". Then I got a crazy idea: how about former presidents and/or members of their families who would have Secret Service details following them around? I wonder if Barack or Michelle Obama have considered this.

Hortense's avatar

Maybe we can make "Minnesota nice"?

Al Keim's avatar

Right out of the park Ashley, cleared the nose bleed section and was last seen rising right out of sight!

Steven Insertname's avatar

I quoted that sentiment by Bill in emails to both of my senators and house rep (Democrats all). No response from any of the 3, tho.

Peter Enz's avatar

Yeah this all is a fake out, they’re are taking over the ancient army base next Whipple to use as a bunker. And Homan will be worse because he will be just evil but in a JD Vance way not a Bovino showboat way. This will be worse.

Dave Yell's avatar

Too cold for them.

Mary Brownell's avatar

I was going to say "Hell yeah" to your first sentence, but then I read your second and third sentences, and then the rest--Hell yeah to all of it.

Dan R.'s avatar

I'm just going to say upfront--if I ever . . . EVER . . . felt like I was being pandered to, or being told what I want to hear, I would drop The Bulwark in a hot second.

You guys are different because you don't pander. As long as you keep your part of that bargain, I don't care if I see ads in my newsletters. You do what you need to do to stay in business and stay honest with your readers--you are too valuable to lose.

Will Hinson's avatar

If this is a reference to the ad in yesterday's newsletter, the reason it felt like such a punch in the mouth for a lot of us was the fact that it was the first time one had shown up (at least on the paid web version), it was visually interfering with coverage of one of the most important developing stories in modern American history, AND it was for a company that is famous mostly for being so evil that their CEO was assassinated.

I too trust The Bulwark to do the right thing and course correct when needed, and it seems like they have. If they need to run ads in the "freemium" content that's perfectly normal, though I'd prefer to see it done in a far less intrusive manner. But when we're paying subscribers, dumping a smirking United Health spot into our eyeballs is pretty tasteless.

Steve's avatar

I have gotten in the habit of watching Bulwark videos on YouTube, where they have ads -- which I fast-forward through. It's a small inconvenience, but I get the need for a diverse revenue stream, as JVL discussed.

I'm kind of surprised at the blowback about the United Health ad given how most major news media outlets have advertising -- and often quite a bit of it.

I didn't see the ad, but if I had my main irritant would have been that I consider United Health one of the bad guys. If I were the ad manager for The Bulwark, I would steer clear of them no matter how lovely their money.

Will Hinson's avatar

Something similar happened over at Pod Save America, they did one sponsored segment for Walmart and that video got ratio'd into oblivion, and I haven't seen a Walmart ad on there since. You're right that the lesson isn't "never have ads," it's that The Daily Planet should not be doing half-page spreads for LuthorCorp.

(That said, I would dearly love for all video content creators to stop plugging BetterHelp as well)

Greg WF's avatar

Actually our name was recently changed to LexCorp. Thank you for your interest in our innovative products. We are currently working on an artificial Kryptonite death ray for the Department of Homeland Security, to rid our fair planet of the existential menace posed by the, so called, Last Son of Krypton. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Lex Luthor

CEO, and founding member

Of the Legion of Doom

suzc's avatar

Well said. I dropped the politico news feed because their ads were all from "bad guys" and who you accept money from reflects your beliefs and values.

Annalisa's avatar
4hEdited

The issue is that Bulwark has presented themselves as different from those other media outlets, and they have explicitly stated that it’s because they don’t rely on big corporate donors. They also use this argument to justify much more expensive membership tiers that some of us pay for because we believe in the Bulwark’s mission. If they want to change to having big sponsors, I think many (or most?) of us would be fine with it if they did it in the right way, but they should explain this change (again, a key issue is that they specifically marketed themselves as free from big corporate donors) and use discretion in who they select. No big corporations are saints, but there are some that we all know are borderline evil.

Steven Insertname's avatar

I also a bit sickened when they have an author on a pod or something, and the link to buy their book is always to Amazon. I've requested in several forms that they stop doing that, and link to an independent bookseller, but so far its fallen on deaf ears.

Now they're putting ads to other horrid corporations in written columns.

Not quite enough for me to stop supporting them -YET- but they're headed in a very dangerous direction.

Raise the price of a Plus subscription, or add more tiers of membership. But keep the fascist ads out of my face.

Liz B's avatar

Thanks for trying! I work in the publishing world, and the default links to Amazon are irritating. Many bookstores have great websites to link to, or there's always indiebound.

Steve's avatar

I get what your saying. One caveat: Perhaps because I come out of journalism, I don't see advertising as a donation -- I see it as payment for services rendered. They are basically selling eyeballs.

Perhaps part of the problem is that The Bulwark has done staff testimonials in some ads on their video programs, so people may assume that if an ad runs on The Bulwark that they are explicitly endorsing the product or service. If I saw the same ad in a daily newspaper I wouldn't assume an endorsement. So somewhat different context.

Annalisa's avatar

That’s fair. I should’ve clarified the advertiser/donor distinction better, and I did try to address it in another comment.

Frau Katze's avatar

You can watch the videos ad free on Substack but YouTube is a better platform IMHO (at least for me using an iPhone).

Annalisa's avatar

The YouTube platform is SO much better. (Or, rather, Substack is just kind of a hot mess.) I pay for Bulwark Plus on YouTube so I don’t have to get ads - I don’t love that I have to pay double, but I really do love Bulwark content. Plus I watch everything at at least 2x speed, and I have YouTube Premium, which lets me watch at speeds faster than 2x (though I don’t usually go above 2.5x or 3x).

Frau Katze's avatar

Yep, I prefer YouTube, I also pay for YouTube premium because (as of course they have their own ads!)

Steven Insertname's avatar

Keep in mind that YouTube and their parent company Google are not much better than Meta/Facebook or Xitter in their kowtowing to fascism.

Frau Katze's avatar

When you think about it, almost all these big companies have problems in this area. You can only avoid so much before it becomes impossible. So I’m not buying that argument.

Steven Insertname's avatar

Watching and paying for a Bulwark subscription on Substack doesn't give money to Google. I don't know Substack's politics or who they're owned by, and I do watch some things like Pod Save America on YT, but if I can avoid spending any money on known fascist sympathizer platforms, I do.

Annalisa's avatar
4hEdited

Would you be fine with Palantir ads? ICE recruitment ads? The issue wasn’t so much the presence of any ad on the Bulwark - though this one was jarring and in horribly bad taste given the content of that particular newsletter - but rather the selection of UHC as a paid sponsor, with the timing and context being a second major issue. I completely understand bringing in sponsors for additional advertising revenue, but it should be done with better discretion.

Heidi Richman's avatar

As I said yesterday, I am willing to give The B the benefit of the doubt until they clarify if the United Healthcare Morning Shots sponsorship yesterday was a Bulwark-specific sponsorship, or placed by Substack. They also need to clarify why we paid subscribers were seeing it!

Our comments yesterday have not yet been addressed, and my question in Jim’s tech chat yesterday also sits unanswered, tho other Bulwarkians emphasized it.

Not ok with this lack of response. Going to try again for clarification today in The Next Level AMA.

I’m losing patience- how can we make an informed decision about our support of this indie platform if they don’t prioritize clarification on their monetization?

LHS's avatar

I commented about the *%?#! United Health ad here yesterday, as well as in the comments to JVL's Triad.

Heidi Richman's avatar

I just left a comment on today’s Triad asking for clarification when they do TNL Live today. As Publisher, Sarah can and should address this!

Frau Katze's avatar

I don’t want ads. I’m a paying customer.

Annalisa's avatar

I thought about mentioning this concern as well, but I couldn’t remember if I’d seen them explicitly state that they were completely reader-supported. At least with my comment, I was trying to point out the conflict between their actions and statement that I definitely recall. But I’m really glad you pointed this out as well!

Kotzsu's avatar

Conflict is good, it is a natural byproduct of impassioned people and trying to solve problems with the best ideas. We can navigate conflict with poise, grace, and kindness. The Bulwark does this with professionalism, which is what is most important, and honesty which is also very important.

I kind of most enjoy the pieces that rub the fur of the audience the wrong way, and then the resulting spicy comments, especially when the authors jump in and push back in said spicy comments - which still remain polite if not contested. I appreciate Andrew in particular there.

Annalisa's avatar

While I generally agree with what you wrote, it seems like you are conflating rather distinct issues: provocative newsletters are not the same as bringing in UHC as a sponsor for a newsletter all about Alex Pretti’s killing. And as I noted in a separate comment, there is the issue of them previously using a marketing strategy of pointing out of how they were free from big corporate donors*. I personally have no problem with them having some big advertisers, but they owe an explanation to the people who signed up to support them because of their freedom from big corporate donors.

*I recognize that advertisers are not technically the same as donors, but there is still the same concern of a potential negative/chilling effect on the content. Among other issues.

JAMES ROY LEE's avatar

"It is still headed by a raging, vengeful narcissist and stuffed to bursting with nihilistic shitheels ..."

... voted into office by Americans still suffering from endemic racism, generational ignorance, and wallowing in cold-hearted performative Christianity.

Keith Wresch's avatar

Cold hearted indeed. It’s now the gospel of *toxic* empathy whose text and verse we find right next to ….

Greg WF's avatar

Thoughts and prayers. The new “Drop dead!”

Heidi Richman's avatar

“The death of human empathy is one of the earliest and most telling signs of a culture about to fall into barbarism.”

~Hannah Arendt

Dan Leithauser's avatar

Opposition foot on the gas.

No retreating from this singular point:

Three people need to be indicted for homicide, of course following the proper transparent investigative process.

The person who shot Renee Good. (ICE agent Jonathan Ross).

The two people who shot Alex Pretti as he lay face down on the ground and after they had already backed away from his body. (So far unnamed?).

Anything less? "Discipline"? Suspension. Firing? Really?

Justice.

Karl's avatar

Every shot after the first one was unjustified. The agent who fired the first shot heard the word "gun", pulled his, and fired, grossly overreacting in a chaotic situation, one second after Mr. Pretti's gun was extracted. He did not take time to reasonably assess whether he was in danger and whether the "gun" announced seconds before was brandished by the decedent. For the first shot, he's guilty of manslaughter. For the rest, malicious murder. The second agent who fired is guilty of the latter.

suzc's avatar

Every shot was into his back while six men held him down. That is murder imho.

LHS's avatar

The first one was not justified. He presented no immediate danger to the goons.

steve robertshaw's avatar

I love how Andrew Egger called Lyin' Leavitt out for telling milder politically correct lies, so why can't the New York Times or Bezos' bastardized Washington Post do the same and simply call her new statements to the press lies?

R Mercer's avatar

Well, Bezos does not want to lose any of his real business (AWS and Amazon) and the real media does not want to lose "access" or face spurious lawsuits that they will shell out money to avoid.

Andrew Joyce's avatar

Exactly. The government contracts with AWS must be a significant part of their revenue. Plutocrats win, we lose.

ScottG's avatar

Because they have no "evidence" that MAGA knows the actual truth and are therefore lying, vs. simply "interpreting the situation differently." I'm no journalist, but I'm sure there is some "standard" derived from an assumption that all actors are operating in good faith.

Good faith is the key word. Stop operating like Trump/MAGA is operating in good faith. They aren't. They are looking for power by any means. Trump was operating in bad faith when he screwed over all of those small contractors that weren't large enough to sue him: he surely knew they were "suckers" that couldn't defend themselves.

Is the guy running around saying "the earth is flat and aliens abducted my girlfriend!" lying? Probably not. Were Hitler and Stalin lying? Does Trump lie? Absolutely. Although I'm pretty sure Trump often has no idea what is real and what is made up anymore, he's so far gone.

Jzcode's avatar

I think it's worth stressing that while Pretti had a gun, it was pretty useless against state tyranny. His power and potency comes from being a decent human. 2A: 0. Principled non violence: 1.

NVO's avatar

This. Also even the people defending Pretti's right to carry a weapon because "we need guns against state tyranny", would not think it was justified if Alex had pulled out his weapon and murked the agents who were beating him.

TH's avatar

YES. Thank you for pointing that out, and thanks to NVO, for the further elaboration. I really don't follow the logic of, "If we carry guns, we will win." I think it just increases the likelihood of a tragedy and possibly a permission structure for a brutal crackdown. We saw the administration's best efforts to turn Good and Pretti into domestic terrorists; imagine how much easier that would have been if, say, Pretti had unholstered his weapon?? If Good had had a gun stashed in her car?

I wholeheartedly agree that principled non-violence is the superior strategy, and the presence of guns will--at best--only complicate the situation even further. As Renee Good's widow said: "We had whistles, they had guns." That contrast, expressed so eloquently, makes it crystal clear who is on the right side of this conflict and helps build the mass movement we need to win.

(On the other hand: I did _not_ anticipate the NRA and other gun-rights organizations coming out in defense of Pretti! Not sure where those folks were when Philando Castile was murdered, but I'm glad they're pushing back now.)

I recognize that this is a deeply personal issue for folks. I just couldn't hold off on providing my two cents, spoken from my position of privilege, etc etc etc. Here's hoping that we can all match the heroism AND the restraint of Alex Pretti. We'll need both.

Mary Brownell's avatar

Yes, to TH. Probably the biggest reason the Civil Rights movement of the 60's was successful is because its leaders studied the successful Non-Violent protests of Gandhi, which led to India's freedom from the British Empire. MLK, Jr. and the other Civil Rights leaders, by all accounts I have read, did extensive training of the African American adults and children before they started their peaceful protests.

That said, I am sure what was also in their minds was the absolute certainty that if they had been armed, there would have been mass slaughter and all the white folks who had been taught for centuries to fear the violent black folks would have said it was justified.

And gee, could their fear of their slaves and former slaves been because they knew how they would have felt about a whole group of people who bought, sold, and owned them?

Greg WF's avatar

Indeed. But if Donnie Dumbf^*k makes the grievous error of invoking the Insurrection Act, principled nonviolence may not be adequate. I dearly hope that it doesn’t go that far. It’s been a long time since I had to sleep in a hole in the ground, and all the other stuff. I’m gettin too old for this shit!

Jenna Walls's avatar

I am wondering how the state calling out its National Guard will play out. I think every blue - and perhaps purple- state should be considering this strategy to protect voters during the fall elections. I’m not sure armed citizens are a good idea, but it is feasible that if the situation gets downright dire we could see trained troops employed! Lord help us!

Jeff Bernfeld's avatar

In case you missed it, Alex Pretti is dead. He's not winning anything. Yeah I know what you mean but don't you think that's pretty a dehumanizing way to make your point? How about something along the lines of "Pretti stood up and made the ultimate sacrifice so that we could win"?

As the father of a son would have been 37 on January 25th (the same age as Pretti) I think I'm on safe ground in saying that I don't think his parents think he won anything. A little humanity goes a long way.

Linda P.'s avatar

I just want to underscore what you said: Alex Pretti won nothing. He is dead.

Greg WF's avatar

I hold Mr. Pretti in the same high regard as I do Revolutionary War hero Nathan Hale.

Marvin Brooklyn's avatar

One important factor in this latest ICE murder is that the Administration tied their defense of this killing to the fact that Petti was carrying a legally concealed gun. This did not sit well with the right wing gun absolutists. This split added pressure from the right to force Trump to back down.

Lisa Owens Viani's avatar

sad that for them to back down it has to come from GUNS. It's either guns or $ with these guys.

Different drummer's avatar

Abbot and DeSantis complained non-stop during Biden's term about being overrun w/ immigrants. When are the hordes of masked thugs going to be sent to THOSE states???

Kate Fall's avatar

Next. I've been thinking about this. After what we saw in Minneapolis, is ICE really going to Philadelphia next? Won't that just be more of the same? Do they not have quotas to meet?

If you want to meet those quotas, you have to go to the points of least resistance.

Greg WF's avatar

Listen, I’ve been to Philly and Egg Harbor Township, New Jersey. If those ICE and Border Patrol freaks go into Philly actin all stupid like they have, they’re gonna get roughed up. That “City of Brotherly Love “ stuff is some wicked propaganda. I dare them to roll up into Philly, or Jersey. Them Jersey Pine Barrens are lovely, dark, and deep, baby!

Frau Katze's avatar

You’d think Abbott and DeSantis would be requesting them!

Dave Yell's avatar

It will never happen because they are red.

Andrew R's avatar

FWIW, the hotel protests you mentioned are being discussed in local social media groups. Many folks posted asking people to stay away, and saying that those protests were setups including ICE/BP agents in the crowd. Nobody was arrested, which seems to corroborate those claims. Hard to know what is true in those instances, absolutely, but the feeling on the ground here is one of solidarity in peaceful resistance, not violence.

Sumeeta's avatar
4hEdited

Noise is not violence.

And assembly is lawful until declared otherwise. The protesters know to disperse when asked by police, hence no arrests.

michelle Standridge's avatar

I’m not convinced we will completely be able to quell the undercurrent of racism and extremism that the cult of trump is cultivating in our country. We may have a victory in saving the democracy, but until there is true acceptance across the board and to the highest levels, the rot within will continue to simmer on the back burner waiting for the next opportunity. For Republicans to have failed to impeach and remove trump twice, it’s no accident that we find ourselves here.

Kate Fall's avatar

As long as John Roberts and his co-conspirators on the Supreme Court think Minneapolis is what the rest of the country should look like and the Epstein files should never be released, we (those of here + our children and grandchildren) are in very serious trouble.

The Supreme Court has to be Priority One going forward IMO.

Hortense's avatar

I remember all hoopla about being post-racist after Obama won the presidency. It was never true. Look at the decades where black people were murdered and discarded. The Civil Rights Act was a big deal, but there was still a lot of racist actions. To presume that with the election of the first black president, that all magically went away was sheer ignorance of how humans act and our history unfolded.

TH's avatar

I feel like a lot of us are waking up to that fact. We are slow learners, partially because the way we were taught. Only now, during the second Trump administration, am I finally catching up to what was probably obvious to the Black community since forever: during WW2, the US government fought fascism in Europe while practicing it at home. Every Black parent has "the Talk" with their child, teaching them about the fascist dual state. The Civil Rights Movement was a calculated effort to fight that fascism and break down the dual state. It was wildly successful, and yet there is so, so much more to be done. Now that I'm experiencing the dual state (vicariously) by seeing white folks like Good and Pretti being murdered in the street, I get it. I used to view these things separately--that is American anti-fascism in Europe as being wholly distinct from Civil Rights Movement in the US--but now I see the continuity in the struggle...and the continuity in the authoritarianism. (Heck, the Double V campaign even spelled it out, and I still didn't fully understand the connection!) Electing Obama was great but it didn't mean the fight was over. We're still in it, and hopefully we can get enough people on our side to make even further progress than the generations that came before us.

Hortense's avatar

This is the way for all people trying to better participate in society, as equals and with respect. The trick is to keep one's heart and mind open to the impact of decisions on people that are not in one's own demographic.

Greg WF's avatar

The fight never ends.

Al Keim's avatar

That undercurrent has always been there waiting for a voice. "I'm the only one who can fix it"

Michelle Togut's avatar

This. Until we finally reckon with the systemic racism that afflicts our society and culture, we won't truly have a democracy.

Keith Wresch's avatar

Illhan Omar sounds like the classic American success story: came here with nothing who is now a congresswoman and has a hefty amount of assets. But I guess American success stories now only apply for persecuted white South Africans.

Robert Jaffee's avatar

If they are looking into her for possible insider trading (I doubt it); they best look at every Republican in Congress for the last year. It’s been a who’s who of idiots going from zero financially, to hero—millions!

Republicans and some democrats have never had it better! Trump makes sure to corrupt even those claiming to be incorruptible!…:)

max skinner's avatar

She was, just as many Jews were in the early parts of the 1900's. That makes some people mad.

Dan Leithauser's avatar

Your statement about "hefty amount of assets" implies that Omar's assets are ill gotten gains. Her "assets" are from her husband's net worth as an investment manager. If that was not your intent? Sorry for the interruption.

Keith Wresch's avatar

it was not meant to as ill gotten, substantial may have been a better word.

Dave Yell's avatar

Ilhan Omar's husband is a heck of a lot better businessman the Don(six bankruptcies) Trump.

J Fricks's avatar

While I agree we need to celebrate our “wins”, having Bovino removed and slightly less-noxious rhetoric are paltry wins. More needs to happen and soon.

Greg WF's avatar

I like what General Patton said about the Nazis:

We’re gonna hold on to em by the nose, and we’re gonna kick em in the ass. We’re gonna kick the hell out of em all the time. And we’re gonna go through em like shit through a goose.

I’m trying imagine Schumer, or Jefferies giving that speech. Ughhh!

Robert Jaffee's avatar

“This White House has a playbook for scandal: Always double down, never apologize, and above all attack, attack, attack. So it was nothing less than shocking yesterday when the administration—after two days of utterly shameless lies about the killing of Alex Pretti—slammed on the brakes in an attempt to pivot to a more normie-palatable narrative.”

Never more prescient words Andrew! And expect this administration to recycle their sycophants and regroup; attacking from a different vantage point!

Seriously, how is Homan any better? He’s 100% behind Trump’s most nefarious policies and just an hour after stating a full review of the Pretti homicides (murder) was necessary, he was back on the air parroting Noem and Miller. Additionally, if this was truly a policy change, they’d start at the top: Miller!

Bottom line, they are looking for temporary off-ramp, but make no mistake, this is far from over; just a small set back and possibly another distraction from what’s happening inside many of the institutions.

FYI: I’m starting to believe that the ventriloquists pulling the strings on all of MAGA ‘s depraved marionette’s, are actually experts on Chaos Theory, because while Trump keeps losing in the eyes of the public, he is still winning from an authoritarian and policy perspective.

James Richardson's avatar

Yup. And while he's losing in the eyes of the public it's not by that much--just the wrong end of 60-40.