I am a center left dem-- and welcome NT's to join the Dem. Party. It may be disconcerting to those accustomed to the lockstep of Republicanism but seriously, many districts are more centrist than left and would vote for those candidates that speak for them (that resist the Trumpcult and authoritarianism as well as the Democratic socialist progressives). It is a big tent. I am not on board with at third party at this juncture-- I feel it is premature (but honestly, for those that are legit unable to vote for any pro-choice candidate, go ahead, pursue getting your pro-forced birth 3rd Party registered in every state and let your freakflagfly; why the hell not-- the libertarians do it).
I also thought Amanda's choice of tweet to make her point was way off. It masked sense she selected a Mary Trump post as a more efficient launch for her idea.
I am 100% for embracing conservatives in a coalition to save the republic - while not understanding at all the conservative stance on certain policies.
All but 2 of the 13 Republicans who voted to end Trumpism vaporized. All 13 of them voted against even debating Manchin's skinny John Lewis Voting rights bill.
We don't understand that at all. Then the behavior around the debt ceiling, seriously WTF?
"Suddenly, two key Central European populists were gone". Uh, no. Babis is still on the books as Prime Minister unless and until a new government is formed, and Kurz is not gone, he just moved over while, Putin-like, the loyalist he annointed steps in as Prime Minister while Kurz whispers in his ear. No, the loyalist is not named Medvedev although he could be. What is accurate is that the way Babis was defeated in the election was by everyone who was against him agreeing to, at least temporarily, bury their hatchets and work in unison to defeat him. The US Dems could certainly learn something from that, expanding their "tent" to accept and not insult Red Dogs.
The problem with Carpenter's specific tweet is that it frames something very specific, defaulting on the national debt, as a conservative thing. Does this not seem extremely odd to you? Because the purpose of the original tweet was 'Cheney et all dislike trump, but at 100% happy to help McConnell/McCarthy et all tank the economy thus making it easier for Trump to rise again.'
Look, we can debate about how many things you need to do in order to really join the democrats. You know what is thing #1 though? Not helping the people who are trying to bring him back to power!
We can debate spending levels. Voting for tax decreases, exploding the national debt, and then being like 'you know there's a democrat in charge, guess we should default and destroy the economy' is hardly a 'conservative' position. If you believe it is, then it's very clear why 'conservatism' got eaten by Trumpism so easily.
NT Republicans, always remember: by joining the Democrats, you are not only weakening the Republican party, you are helping to make the Democrats more sane. You aren't helpless captives: joining gives you a voice.
General elections these days are mostly foregone conclusions because almost everyone votes based on party. But party primaries are where people still vote on actual issues. Weakening the Republican party to the point that it is a rump party in a given place elevates the Democratic primary to being the "real" election there, while basically disenfranchising the right's lunatic fringe. And your participation in the Democratic party primary system helps you shape the party so that it retains what the Republicans have lost - actual choices.
I have been a registered Republican since around 1980 (but was really more of a Left Libertarian at the time). I voted for Reagan (twice), voted for Bush Sr--and Bush Sr was the last GoP Presidential candidate I voted for.
The GoP demonstrated to me over the years that much of what they supposedly stood for (and why they stood for it) was BS. Most of their economic theory has never really ever panned out in a real world environment.
On top of that I am an atheist, so I find the marriage between the GoP and the evangelicals disgusting--both from the political end (the GoP "using" them) and the ethical (the evangelicals being all in on letting themselves be used) end.
On some things I am very progressive and on a a few I am conservative. Most of my political philosophy is built around the understanding that people are largely idiots and should not be left to run around unattended.
That kind of puts a damper on my adherence to much of what constitutes either progressive or conservative thought these days.
The conclusion I have come to is that:
in general we are too focused upon the individual in the country and pay far too little attention to community (despite words to the contrary on both left and right);
Both our justice system and political system are far too corrupt (and more in the ethical sense than financial);
The deck is stacked far too much in favor of those that have, to the detriment of ALL of us
Our media is a profit-seeking disaster that is leading us along the path to perdition.
While these thoughts might SEEM to put me into the progressive camp, I don't find that my solutions (such as they are) to those problems and their solutions line up all that well. I also find that conservatives aren't REALLY all that interested in solutions to those problems at all, except maybe rhetorically.
Not sure where any of that leaves me in our current state.
My overriding goal ATM is the preservation of the Republic. If that means that I have to support policies that I don't necessarily agree with, so be it. Stopping the crap that is the current GoP is more important.
We can survive bad policy... we have survived a lot of bad policy over my lifetime. We will survive future bad policy. The Republic WON'T survive another episode of Trump and Co.
Like it or not, anti-Trump Conservatives will need to cover their noses and support Biden's agenda, even if it is too progressive for their taste. We need Democrats to keep control of both chambers to reduce the risk of another coup by the pro-Trump Republicans. Not increasing the debt ceiling and crashing the economy will kill any hope we have to avoid a comeback by the Orange monster.
Some of us would be *very* happy to have you on this side of the line, if only to counteract the Progressives who strut around like they own the Party while making up a whopping 15-20% of it.
I'm perfectly fine with a much more conservative wing of the party if they want to register, become members, and elect their own caucus. That said, you're vastly under-estimating how much of the party is composed of progressives.
If you just look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus in the House with it's 95 members, they make up 42% of the 224 member Democratic Caucus in the House. Now, that's obviously not a majority, but it's a hell of a lot more than that 15-20% number that I can only assume you pulled out of your ass.
That's the politicians, not the real world ones, where I live I don't even know a single progressive liberal , almost all are moderates and a few are what used to be called conservative democrats
I feel like this is obvious (maybe it's not), but just because you don't know any, doesn't mean there aren't any progressives in the country.
If you look at David's response to mine, 47% of the party consider themselves liberal or very liberal. They might not all be progressives, but most of them probably are.
I was just making the point that it's not accurate to describe progressives as this annoying barely relevant part of the party, when in reality they're probably at least 40%.
Of course, there are, but the ones I am talking about ...the woke sect mostly lives in blue bubbles and big cities and/or on the coasts and they have a misunderstanding about how many actual moderates there are, and they vote but are not politically engaged like some of us are...so they don't show up in polls, etc...they also tend to dismiss people like me and think we are irrelevant...and that is a mistake...plus, they cant' win a national election, and that should tell them something...some of their basic goals are ok with me, but their behaviors and extreme stuff is not...they can go create their own party if they don't like us, and see how well they do without us and how many of us there are actually are, not to mention left leaning independents who don't show on dem polls either
I find them a minority in their extreme views...based on not just where I am , but talking to other people from all over the country...
The actual makeup of the Democratic base is 15% self-described "Very liberal", 32% "Liberal", 38% "Moderate", 11% "Conservative" and 3% " Very Conservative" (per Pew Research).
That's the 15% I'm referring to when I say "Progressives who strut around like they own the Party": The Woke-sters that would rather eat no-meal than oatmeal and run around flogging Baby Boomers (presumably until morale improves.)
As someone who has moved from the Center Right to the Center Left since 2016, I wasn't prepared for inter party nastiness of Democratic primaries. Rhetorically, there isn't much love lost between neolib and the progressive wings of the party.
I'm not a progressive, but a lot of the writers and guests of the Bulwark still regularly insult progressives. If you're truly interested in building a coalition you may want to tone down the George Will-esque rhetoric about the Progressives coming to kill us all and how crazy they are etc.
Yes! I continue to harp on my theme of the last couple of weeks that in this case (though certainly not always), the progressives are being rational, and the moderates (Sinema and Gottheimer, but NOT Manchin, who is being constructive) are being childish and I believe are likely to torpedo BBB if the infrastructure bill gets passed first. And I think that it would be good for the Coalition of the Decent if that fact got reflected in more of the commentary.
BTW -- w/r/t the progressives, I agree that two of the four members of the Squad are a bit nuts (though less nuts than Boebert and Greene), but the other two Squaddies, and Jayapal, Porter, and many others, are super solid and motivated to do well by their constituents and the country, even if their policies are not fully to my liking.
As someone who has moved from the Center Right to the Center Left since 2016, I wasn't prepared for inter party nastiness of Democratic primaries. Rhetorically, there isn't much love lost between neolib and the progressive wings of the party.
I'm not a progressive, but a lot of the writers and guests of the Bulwark still regularly insult progressives. If you're truly interested in building a coalition you may want to tone down the George Will-esque rhetoric about the Progressives coming to kill us all and how crazy they are etc.
One thing that struck me after the election was that progressives immediately claimed anti-Trump Republicans had not made a difference and they could be ignored when it came to governing. In fact, if you look at the swing state results, the crossover vote of anti-Trump Republicans had made the difference in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia.
In the olden days, people in political coalitions found the common ground they shared and worked together on those issues. Today, those of us who are minority parties in that political coalition are expected to denounce our convictions and adopt 100% the agenda of the major player in that coalition. If not, we are dead to our new friends. Political coalitions cannot succeed with such expectations.
Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans are united on our support for American Democracy and the threat Trumpism poses to it. Maybe concentrate on some electoral reforms to insure Trump does not actually succeed when he tries another coup because he lost an election?
I don't think anyone thinks anti-Trump Republicans made no difference. I think they most certainly have the ability to swing elections and Democrats would be smart to try to win their votes. That said, I don't think they should expect to dictate the party's agenda when they:
1. Refuse to join the party
2. Are such a small part of the electorate that their only relevance is deciding between a moderate Democrat and a Trump Republican
I think it's unreasonable of them to expect either party to do anything more than the bare minimum required to win their votes because frankly, in every other respect, anti-Trump Republicans are such a small % of the electorate that they don't have enough votes to hold any more power than that.
Speaking of Vindman, I would like to see more coverage of what has happened to the courageous government whistleblowers who tossed aside their careers to stand up to Trump. Biden should be helping those people out, but according to the interview with Vindman, that's not happening. Very disappointing.
I have been a lifelong Dem but don’t really see a place in the party for me either, and I’m really “liberal” or whatever. I’m tired of these self proclaimed “socialists” ruining nice things. I have witnessed first hand how government regulations and the FDA hurt small farmers. I’ve seen environmental hunting groups demonized even though they do more to protect the environment than half of these Patagonia fleece-wearing meat eaters. I’m a vegan, but pro-hunter/reasonable gun rights. And I believe in DECENTRALIZED government. I want to end the drug war desperately. I believe on legalizing vice to keep taxes down to create revenue (I live in Las Vegas now lol). But I am pro-choice, pro-freedom of speech (no matter what), pro- universal healthcare because it is good for small businesses just as much as individuals. I get Bernie Bros who pile on me on Twitter, being just as misogynist as any Trumper I’ve encountered. It sucks. I joined the SAM Party because Charlie interviewed David Jolly and that really inspired me for the first time in a long time. Thank you for showing us different paths to hopefully get to a better place ❤️
A few months ago, people were saying that the position of conservatives was the deciding factor in whether authoritarians succeed. Makes sense to me. For example, the pre-election ads run by Republicans against Trump were powerful.
But Charlie, please understand that many potential Democratic voters think the democracy-is-at-stake theme is overhyped and care more about kitchen table issues. That’s why the Reconciliation bill is so important. The Dems have to walk and chew bubblegum. I wouldn’t expect conservatives to like the $3.5 trillion version of the Reconciliation bill but you’ve kept your criticism relatively low-key in consideration of the threat to democracy and I think that’s wise.
I live in Louisiana. John Bel Edwards had substantial Republican support in gubernatorial race. How about approaching him for help forming a Louisiana chapter of Republicans Against Trumpism?
The focus on the 3.5 trillion letter to Santa is the equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns. Meanwhile the John Lewis Voting Rights act languishes and the Trumpistas stack the local and state-level elections machinery with loyalists.
There's a real risk of violence in January of 2024 and that's being ignored by the Progressive wing of the democratic party. This can't be repeated too much.
It's fine in my opinion if Never Trumpers don't want to join the Democratic Party. If they want to support the party because they prioritize democracy above all other issues, that is certainly their right and I'm sure we would welcome the support... However, I also think that means you're not entitled to the same level of privilege as people who are on the team. Those who still are registered and identify as Republicans, who refuse to join the team, shouldn't get to tell the team what to do.
Charlie, you seem to have a lot of ideas about what Democrats "should do", but if you ask me, as long as you refuse to join the party, even if that means as a very conservative democrat, then you don't get to role-play as the coach of the team. You can still come to the games, buy the jerseys, cheer (or not) if you want, but you don't get to be the coach. You don't get to select the roster or call the plays. You don't deserve the right to pretend to be a member of the McAuliffe campaign (or any other Democratic campaign for that matter), when you still refuse to even put on the jersey.
If you want to join the party and fight for a much more conservative faction of the Democratic party, then that's fine, lets talk. But as "Saint Joe Manchin" put it, if you want more Reaganite conservative policies, you're going to have to elect more Reaganite conservatives. That might not be possible within the Democratic party, but we KNOW it's not possible within the Republican party, which has become completely Trumpified.
It's your life and your choice, but IMO, until you are willing to join the party, you don't deserve the right to tell the party what it should or must do.
So, how do you feel about a liberal who does not and never has been a part of the Dem party ( In OH, I have to pick one to vote in a primary, but I just pick one when I know which one I want to vote in)...I don't get tribes, and have no desire to be in one
I am, however, a liberal who votes liberal when they represent my values and ideology...so, I am not allowed an opinion on how I think the party should go as it matters to how I vote?
I don't think you should get to roleplay campaign strategist, no. I think everyone can have whatever opinion they want, but if you want to say "Democrats should/need to do X" you better be a member of the party if you want me to take that opinion seriously.
There's a difference between saying "this is what would make me vote for the Democrats" and saying "Democrats should/need to do what I say if they want to win."
If you want to say a) as a non-Democrat, go for it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But it's not in the party's best interest to let non-members dictate how we campaign, message, etc. If you want to do that and be taken seriously, you should join the party.
I don't believe The Bulwark is offering prescriptions only to democrats. They're offering prescriptions to everyone. Yeah, they believe the focus on the 3.5 trillion never-gonna-pass progressive wish list is misguided, but they also believe conservative republicans should vote for democrats even if they find many of the policy positions espoused by these democrats repulsive. Read Mona Charen on the subject:
Why is it that conservatives are expect to compromise on even some of their highest priorities, but progressives get whatever they want? This is not how compromise works.
I'm not saying they have to compromise on their highest priorities. I'm saying, they shouldn't expect to dictate the party's agenda if they refuse to join the party. It's fine if they want to fight for a very conservative faction of the Democratic party, but as I said above:
"As "Saint Joe Manchin" put it, if you want more Reaganite conservative policies, you're going to have to elect more Reaganite conservatives."
You can't refuse to join the party or even be such an infinitesimally small faction and expect to dictate terms.
I don't view the Bulwark's mission as trying to dictate to the Democratic Party what it should do. I see it as engaging the left in conversation as to how they can grow their coalition with the overriding goal being the preservation of democracy and constitutional governance. Consider the selling of the $3.5 trillion dollar human infrastructure bill. Progressives and Republicans are united in emphasizing the topline dollar amount. Progressives find the big number exciting and Republicans find it repulsive. The middle might be won over by emphasizing that we are talking about 1.2% of GDP over ten years and by talking more about what the bill is trying to accomplish.
I'll leave aside the discourse about progressive and democratic messaging because I think it deviates from the point I was trying to make.
I don't know how you can consume the content of the Bulwark, especially the daily podcasts, and not come away with the impression that they believe they understand politics, and even intra-party politics, better than people who are actual members of the Democratic party. There was literally a podcast just last week titled "Some Tough Love For the Dems". They put out content like this constantly.
All I'm saying is, if you want to try to dictate what the party does, maybe you should actually, you know, join the party.
Personally, I did join the Democratic Party the moment it became clear that Trump was going to win the Republican nomination. Been contributing to Democratic candidates ever since, including those well to the left of me.
Everybody who steps up to say something about our politics does so with a sense that they have something to say that is worth hearing. I don't see this as a sin.
That's great. I'm glad you joined the party. To be clear, I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to contribute to a reasonable civil discourse.
What I personally object to, is the constant backseat campaigning from people who aren't even willing to call themselves Democrats. I mean, I'd personally be a lot more willing to hear them out if they'd just be like "Okay, I'm on the team, I don't agree with progressives for XYZ reason and I'm going to argue against them... But I'm still a Democrat and intend to support the party against an authoritarian opposition."
I am a center left dem-- and welcome NT's to join the Dem. Party. It may be disconcerting to those accustomed to the lockstep of Republicanism but seriously, many districts are more centrist than left and would vote for those candidates that speak for them (that resist the Trumpcult and authoritarianism as well as the Democratic socialist progressives). It is a big tent. I am not on board with at third party at this juncture-- I feel it is premature (but honestly, for those that are legit unable to vote for any pro-choice candidate, go ahead, pursue getting your pro-forced birth 3rd Party registered in every state and let your freakflagfly; why the hell not-- the libertarians do it).
I also thought Amanda's choice of tweet to make her point was way off. It masked sense she selected a Mary Trump post as a more efficient launch for her idea.
I am 100% for embracing conservatives in a coalition to save the republic - while not understanding at all the conservative stance on certain policies.
All but 2 of the 13 Republicans who voted to end Trumpism vaporized. All 13 of them voted against even debating Manchin's skinny John Lewis Voting rights bill.
We don't understand that at all. Then the behavior around the debt ceiling, seriously WTF?
I'm all ears, though.
"Suddenly, two key Central European populists were gone". Uh, no. Babis is still on the books as Prime Minister unless and until a new government is formed, and Kurz is not gone, he just moved over while, Putin-like, the loyalist he annointed steps in as Prime Minister while Kurz whispers in his ear. No, the loyalist is not named Medvedev although he could be. What is accurate is that the way Babis was defeated in the election was by everyone who was against him agreeing to, at least temporarily, bury their hatchets and work in unison to defeat him. The US Dems could certainly learn something from that, expanding their "tent" to accept and not insult Red Dogs.
The problem with Carpenter's specific tweet is that it frames something very specific, defaulting on the national debt, as a conservative thing. Does this not seem extremely odd to you? Because the purpose of the original tweet was 'Cheney et all dislike trump, but at 100% happy to help McConnell/McCarthy et all tank the economy thus making it easier for Trump to rise again.'
Look, we can debate about how many things you need to do in order to really join the democrats. You know what is thing #1 though? Not helping the people who are trying to bring him back to power!
We can debate spending levels. Voting for tax decreases, exploding the national debt, and then being like 'you know there's a democrat in charge, guess we should default and destroy the economy' is hardly a 'conservative' position. If you believe it is, then it's very clear why 'conservatism' got eaten by Trumpism so easily.
NT Republicans, always remember: by joining the Democrats, you are not only weakening the Republican party, you are helping to make the Democrats more sane. You aren't helpless captives: joining gives you a voice.
General elections these days are mostly foregone conclusions because almost everyone votes based on party. But party primaries are where people still vote on actual issues. Weakening the Republican party to the point that it is a rump party in a given place elevates the Democratic primary to being the "real" election there, while basically disenfranchising the right's lunatic fringe. And your participation in the Democratic party primary system helps you shape the party so that it retains what the Republicans have lost - actual choices.
I have been a registered Republican since around 1980 (but was really more of a Left Libertarian at the time). I voted for Reagan (twice), voted for Bush Sr--and Bush Sr was the last GoP Presidential candidate I voted for.
The GoP demonstrated to me over the years that much of what they supposedly stood for (and why they stood for it) was BS. Most of their economic theory has never really ever panned out in a real world environment.
On top of that I am an atheist, so I find the marriage between the GoP and the evangelicals disgusting--both from the political end (the GoP "using" them) and the ethical (the evangelicals being all in on letting themselves be used) end.
On some things I am very progressive and on a a few I am conservative. Most of my political philosophy is built around the understanding that people are largely idiots and should not be left to run around unattended.
That kind of puts a damper on my adherence to much of what constitutes either progressive or conservative thought these days.
The conclusion I have come to is that:
in general we are too focused upon the individual in the country and pay far too little attention to community (despite words to the contrary on both left and right);
Both our justice system and political system are far too corrupt (and more in the ethical sense than financial);
The deck is stacked far too much in favor of those that have, to the detriment of ALL of us
Our media is a profit-seeking disaster that is leading us along the path to perdition.
While these thoughts might SEEM to put me into the progressive camp, I don't find that my solutions (such as they are) to those problems and their solutions line up all that well. I also find that conservatives aren't REALLY all that interested in solutions to those problems at all, except maybe rhetorically.
Not sure where any of that leaves me in our current state.
My overriding goal ATM is the preservation of the Republic. If that means that I have to support policies that I don't necessarily agree with, so be it. Stopping the crap that is the current GoP is more important.
We can survive bad policy... we have survived a lot of bad policy over my lifetime. We will survive future bad policy. The Republic WON'T survive another episode of Trump and Co.
You and JVL can form the Misanthropic Party.
I want to join! JVL is my favorite!
Have you read Celine's Journey to the End of the Night? It could serve as the Party manifesto.
Not yet, but thank you for the recommendation!
👏R Mercer is speaking my language👏
That stinks. Sorry that happened.
I tend to forgive nonsense that happened in the 2000s. Other liberals, driven by revenge for that particular decade as they are, don't.
I'll do my part to get them to see reason. It'll be a minute, likely. :/
Like it or not, anti-Trump Conservatives will need to cover their noses and support Biden's agenda, even if it is too progressive for their taste. We need Democrats to keep control of both chambers to reduce the risk of another coup by the pro-Trump Republicans. Not increasing the debt ceiling and crashing the economy will kill any hope we have to avoid a comeback by the Orange monster.
Some of us would be *very* happy to have you on this side of the line, if only to counteract the Progressives who strut around like they own the Party while making up a whopping 15-20% of it.
I'm perfectly fine with a much more conservative wing of the party if they want to register, become members, and elect their own caucus. That said, you're vastly under-estimating how much of the party is composed of progressives.
If you just look at the Congressional Progressive Caucus in the House with it's 95 members, they make up 42% of the 224 member Democratic Caucus in the House. Now, that's obviously not a majority, but it's a hell of a lot more than that 15-20% number that I can only assume you pulled out of your ass.
That's the politicians, not the real world ones, where I live I don't even know a single progressive liberal , almost all are moderates and a few are what used to be called conservative democrats
I'm not sure what your point is.
I feel like this is obvious (maybe it's not), but just because you don't know any, doesn't mean there aren't any progressives in the country.
If you look at David's response to mine, 47% of the party consider themselves liberal or very liberal. They might not all be progressives, but most of them probably are.
I was just making the point that it's not accurate to describe progressives as this annoying barely relevant part of the party, when in reality they're probably at least 40%.
Of course, there are, but the ones I am talking about ...the woke sect mostly lives in blue bubbles and big cities and/or on the coasts and they have a misunderstanding about how many actual moderates there are, and they vote but are not politically engaged like some of us are...so they don't show up in polls, etc...they also tend to dismiss people like me and think we are irrelevant...and that is a mistake...plus, they cant' win a national election, and that should tell them something...some of their basic goals are ok with me, but their behaviors and extreme stuff is not...they can go create their own party if they don't like us, and see how well they do without us and how many of us there are actually are, not to mention left leaning independents who don't show on dem polls either
I find them a minority in their extreme views...based on not just where I am , but talking to other people from all over the country...
The actual makeup of the Democratic base is 15% self-described "Very liberal", 32% "Liberal", 38% "Moderate", 11% "Conservative" and 3% " Very Conservative" (per Pew Research).
That's the 15% I'm referring to when I say "Progressives who strut around like they own the Party": The Woke-sters that would rather eat no-meal than oatmeal and run around flogging Baby Boomers (presumably until morale improves.)
As someone who has moved from the Center Right to the Center Left since 2016, I wasn't prepared for inter party nastiness of Democratic primaries. Rhetorically, there isn't much love lost between neolib and the progressive wings of the party.
I'm not a progressive, but a lot of the writers and guests of the Bulwark still regularly insult progressives. If you're truly interested in building a coalition you may want to tone down the George Will-esque rhetoric about the Progressives coming to kill us all and how crazy they are etc.
Yes! I continue to harp on my theme of the last couple of weeks that in this case (though certainly not always), the progressives are being rational, and the moderates (Sinema and Gottheimer, but NOT Manchin, who is being constructive) are being childish and I believe are likely to torpedo BBB if the infrastructure bill gets passed first. And I think that it would be good for the Coalition of the Decent if that fact got reflected in more of the commentary.
BTW -- w/r/t the progressives, I agree that two of the four members of the Squad are a bit nuts (though less nuts than Boebert and Greene), but the other two Squaddies, and Jayapal, Porter, and many others, are super solid and motivated to do well by their constituents and the country, even if their policies are not fully to my liking.
As someone who has moved from the Center Right to the Center Left since 2016, I wasn't prepared for inter party nastiness of Democratic primaries. Rhetorically, there isn't much love lost between neolib and the progressive wings of the party.
I'm not a progressive, but a lot of the writers and guests of the Bulwark still regularly insult progressives. If you're truly interested in building a coalition you may want to tone down the George Will-esque rhetoric about the Progressives coming to kill us all and how crazy they are etc.
One thing that struck me after the election was that progressives immediately claimed anti-Trump Republicans had not made a difference and they could be ignored when it came to governing. In fact, if you look at the swing state results, the crossover vote of anti-Trump Republicans had made the difference in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia.
In the olden days, people in political coalitions found the common ground they shared and worked together on those issues. Today, those of us who are minority parties in that political coalition are expected to denounce our convictions and adopt 100% the agenda of the major player in that coalition. If not, we are dead to our new friends. Political coalitions cannot succeed with such expectations.
Democrats and anti-Trump Republicans are united on our support for American Democracy and the threat Trumpism poses to it. Maybe concentrate on some electoral reforms to insure Trump does not actually succeed when he tries another coup because he lost an election?
I don't think anyone thinks anti-Trump Republicans made no difference. I think they most certainly have the ability to swing elections and Democrats would be smart to try to win their votes. That said, I don't think they should expect to dictate the party's agenda when they:
1. Refuse to join the party
2. Are such a small part of the electorate that their only relevance is deciding between a moderate Democrat and a Trump Republican
I think it's unreasonable of them to expect either party to do anything more than the bare minimum required to win their votes because frankly, in every other respect, anti-Trump Republicans are such a small % of the electorate that they don't have enough votes to hold any more power than that.
Speaking of Vindman, I would like to see more coverage of what has happened to the courageous government whistleblowers who tossed aside their careers to stand up to Trump. Biden should be helping those people out, but according to the interview with Vindman, that's not happening. Very disappointing.
I have been a lifelong Dem but don’t really see a place in the party for me either, and I’m really “liberal” or whatever. I’m tired of these self proclaimed “socialists” ruining nice things. I have witnessed first hand how government regulations and the FDA hurt small farmers. I’ve seen environmental hunting groups demonized even though they do more to protect the environment than half of these Patagonia fleece-wearing meat eaters. I’m a vegan, but pro-hunter/reasonable gun rights. And I believe in DECENTRALIZED government. I want to end the drug war desperately. I believe on legalizing vice to keep taxes down to create revenue (I live in Las Vegas now lol). But I am pro-choice, pro-freedom of speech (no matter what), pro- universal healthcare because it is good for small businesses just as much as individuals. I get Bernie Bros who pile on me on Twitter, being just as misogynist as any Trumper I’ve encountered. It sucks. I joined the SAM Party because Charlie interviewed David Jolly and that really inspired me for the first time in a long time. Thank you for showing us different paths to hopefully get to a better place ❤️
A few months ago, people were saying that the position of conservatives was the deciding factor in whether authoritarians succeed. Makes sense to me. For example, the pre-election ads run by Republicans against Trump were powerful.
But Charlie, please understand that many potential Democratic voters think the democracy-is-at-stake theme is overhyped and care more about kitchen table issues. That’s why the Reconciliation bill is so important. The Dems have to walk and chew bubblegum. I wouldn’t expect conservatives to like the $3.5 trillion version of the Reconciliation bill but you’ve kept your criticism relatively low-key in consideration of the threat to democracy and I think that’s wise.
I live in Louisiana. John Bel Edwards had substantial Republican support in gubernatorial race. How about approaching him for help forming a Louisiana chapter of Republicans Against Trumpism?
The focus on the 3.5 trillion letter to Santa is the equivalent of fiddling while Rome burns. Meanwhile the John Lewis Voting Rights act languishes and the Trumpistas stack the local and state-level elections machinery with loyalists.
There's a real risk of violence in January of 2024 and that's being ignored by the Progressive wing of the democratic party. This can't be repeated too much.
It's fine in my opinion if Never Trumpers don't want to join the Democratic Party. If they want to support the party because they prioritize democracy above all other issues, that is certainly their right and I'm sure we would welcome the support... However, I also think that means you're not entitled to the same level of privilege as people who are on the team. Those who still are registered and identify as Republicans, who refuse to join the team, shouldn't get to tell the team what to do.
Charlie, you seem to have a lot of ideas about what Democrats "should do", but if you ask me, as long as you refuse to join the party, even if that means as a very conservative democrat, then you don't get to role-play as the coach of the team. You can still come to the games, buy the jerseys, cheer (or not) if you want, but you don't get to be the coach. You don't get to select the roster or call the plays. You don't deserve the right to pretend to be a member of the McAuliffe campaign (or any other Democratic campaign for that matter), when you still refuse to even put on the jersey.
If you want to join the party and fight for a much more conservative faction of the Democratic party, then that's fine, lets talk. But as "Saint Joe Manchin" put it, if you want more Reaganite conservative policies, you're going to have to elect more Reaganite conservatives. That might not be possible within the Democratic party, but we KNOW it's not possible within the Republican party, which has become completely Trumpified.
It's your life and your choice, but IMO, until you are willing to join the party, you don't deserve the right to tell the party what it should or must do.
So, how do you feel about a liberal who does not and never has been a part of the Dem party ( In OH, I have to pick one to vote in a primary, but I just pick one when I know which one I want to vote in)...I don't get tribes, and have no desire to be in one
I am, however, a liberal who votes liberal when they represent my values and ideology...so, I am not allowed an opinion on how I think the party should go as it matters to how I vote?
I don't think you should get to roleplay campaign strategist, no. I think everyone can have whatever opinion they want, but if you want to say "Democrats should/need to do X" you better be a member of the party if you want me to take that opinion seriously.
huh, so I have no say in what would make me vote for them...or as a liberal what I think the goals should be?
Interesting
There's a difference between saying "this is what would make me vote for the Democrats" and saying "Democrats should/need to do what I say if they want to win."
If you want to say a) as a non-Democrat, go for it. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. But it's not in the party's best interest to let non-members dictate how we campaign, message, etc. If you want to do that and be taken seriously, you should join the party.
Hope that clears things up
Well, they wouldn't listen to me anyway, I am nobody...
I don't think it is dictating, I think it is suggesting, they are free to disregard or ignore
But, I get your point...
I don't believe The Bulwark is offering prescriptions only to democrats. They're offering prescriptions to everyone. Yeah, they believe the focus on the 3.5 trillion never-gonna-pass progressive wish list is misguided, but they also believe conservative republicans should vote for democrats even if they find many of the policy positions espoused by these democrats repulsive. Read Mona Charen on the subject:
https://www.thebulwark.com/why-im-a-single-issue-voter/
Why is it that conservatives are expect to compromise on even some of their highest priorities, but progressives get whatever they want? This is not how compromise works.
I'm not saying they have to compromise on their highest priorities. I'm saying, they shouldn't expect to dictate the party's agenda if they refuse to join the party. It's fine if they want to fight for a very conservative faction of the Democratic party, but as I said above:
"As "Saint Joe Manchin" put it, if you want more Reaganite conservative policies, you're going to have to elect more Reaganite conservatives."
You can't refuse to join the party or even be such an infinitesimally small faction and expect to dictate terms.
I don't view the Bulwark's mission as trying to dictate to the Democratic Party what it should do. I see it as engaging the left in conversation as to how they can grow their coalition with the overriding goal being the preservation of democracy and constitutional governance. Consider the selling of the $3.5 trillion dollar human infrastructure bill. Progressives and Republicans are united in emphasizing the topline dollar amount. Progressives find the big number exciting and Republicans find it repulsive. The middle might be won over by emphasizing that we are talking about 1.2% of GDP over ten years and by talking more about what the bill is trying to accomplish.
I'll leave aside the discourse about progressive and democratic messaging because I think it deviates from the point I was trying to make.
I don't know how you can consume the content of the Bulwark, especially the daily podcasts, and not come away with the impression that they believe they understand politics, and even intra-party politics, better than people who are actual members of the Democratic party. There was literally a podcast just last week titled "Some Tough Love For the Dems". They put out content like this constantly.
All I'm saying is, if you want to try to dictate what the party does, maybe you should actually, you know, join the party.
Personally, I did join the Democratic Party the moment it became clear that Trump was going to win the Republican nomination. Been contributing to Democratic candidates ever since, including those well to the left of me.
Everybody who steps up to say something about our politics does so with a sense that they have something to say that is worth hearing. I don't see this as a sin.
That's great. I'm glad you joined the party. To be clear, I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to contribute to a reasonable civil discourse.
What I personally object to, is the constant backseat campaigning from people who aren't even willing to call themselves Democrats. I mean, I'd personally be a lot more willing to hear them out if they'd just be like "Okay, I'm on the team, I don't agree with progressives for XYZ reason and I'm going to argue against them... But I'm still a Democrat and intend to support the party against an authoritarian opposition."
I appreciate their views and also happen to think they are right about the missteps in the party right now, and I hope some of them are listening