I hear you. Does it change your thinking at all to consider what conclusion the busy, semi-apathetic people are likely to draw when the split screen that they see on Saturday is: one one side, a relatively chaotic scene of disorganized masses of protestors waving mismatching signs; and on the other, military might marching through street…
I hear you. Does it change your thinking at all to consider what conclusion the busy, semi-apathetic people are likely to draw when the split screen that they see on Saturday is: one one side, a relatively chaotic scene of disorganized masses of protestors waving mismatching signs; and on the other, military might marching through streets flanked by white marble buildings, showcasing crisp precision and order?
I was very relieved. But honestly, I feel like that’s due more to us getting lucky than to any grand strategic coup by the protest organizers. If the parade had been more impressive (and, now that it’s normalized and T has been mocked for its wimpiness, I would bet that next time it will be) then I think my points all stand. What did you think?
Where I was, the protest was a really happy, fun event, and I liked the idea that people who are beginning to grow disenchanted with Trump might see that contrast to the violent images of LA. But: I’m not naive enough to think that the images from LA won’t leave a more striking impression, and that they won’t get the most press.
I really liked seeing the masses on the press. I liked the juxtaposition of all the bodies at the protests and sparse attendance at the parade. (I have not checked to see the footage of the parade from Trump media though. Angles that showed more people may not have shown up on anti-Trump media.)
It was framed by so many bad things though. I had a discussion with a MAGA friend re LA and the MN shootings that led me to decide to quit discussing politics with them. Not because of bad feelings, but just because I became more fully aware of the difference in what we consider trusted sources. It’s like we live on two different planets.
Point being: Although it looked like a lucky day to me, I also saw opinion pieces that really had no clue what even the peaceful protests were about, and I’m sure there is also plenty of press out there that puts Trump’s parade in a good light.
I really don't know what conclusion they are likely to draw. I'll think on it a bit. Are you thinking the alternative screen to the military might with precision and order would be protesters confronting the tanks etc in the parade?
I need to read your comments over as I'm kind of muddled over who has said what at this point lol, but another thing I thought of is that I think that one never has to call for violence.
There are people out there who are going to do it anyway, and there are MAGA who will react back to it.
My statement is that I'm against violence because it is wrong. I don't want people who are working for the things I believe in to be violent. Antifa is stupid and to my mind, just a bunch of baristas and bike messengers at play. (I lived a long time in SF Bay Area.) The things that replace violent revolutions are often worse than the original thing being protested.
If things are really messed up, violence will happen, and it will scare lots of people, and there will be all kinds of reactions, and if we are lucky, some of them will be productive. Remember Rodney King: Can't we all get along?
I have also had these thoughts:
If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.
I remember learning during the Arab Spring that there was actually a sort of "Color Revolution School" that the Egyptian activists had been working with for at least a year prior. There's a guy who wrote books that the Serbians based the project on. Possibly the CIA helped.
Didn't the Russian revolution actually start to really move for the people because the govt was so harsh on regular protesting people that the army got on their side?
I actually disagree with JVL's premise that protesting is not a "let a thousand flowers bloom" situation.
I think when all kinds of things are happening it sets up a dynamic moving system, and if we are lucky, we hit the right mix that makes something shift. Unexpected things emerge out of complex systems.
The goal I think hobbyist activists like me can achieve is to get people who have been Trump supporters, but not heavy duty MAGA, and now are feeling like he is doing a bad job, to start telling their Republican Congress people that they don't like what is happening. Congress is one of the things in place to stop this. It might not work, but it is a thing to try.
“If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.”
This is exactly my point. The current protest movement seems organized specifically *not* to create such images.
And on this vector, do you still feel that Tienanmen failed? It clarified, more firmly than virtually anything else could, the nature of the ruling regime. Note that China had to essentially build its own internet to control the dissemination of this image because of its fear of the image’s power. The regime recognizes that awareness of this incident among the body politic is an existential threat. The decision globally to prioritize economic interests and ignore such human rights abuses is an indictment of capitalism more than a mark of the demonstrators’ failure.
"organized specifically *not* to create such images."
I think it is more like it is organized to insulate it more fully from the possibility that a disturbing image could be interpreted as instigated by mal-intentioned radical left lunatics. It's just a bunch of silly old white people! Or maybe I shouldn't say it is organized to be that way as such. That is just how it is playing out so far. I do like that POC are staying home a lot. I think that is wise. But I would bet that has changed now even in this section (the indivisible section). Things evolve.
My main point is that many kinds of protest is likely better than figuring out what the best kind of protest is. The anti-MAGA version of flooding the zone? Idk.
Your description of how Tienanmen succeeded is sobering.
My thoughts ran as far as to: "I think the most striking image would be if a crowd of my fellow hobbyist activists end up being brutally beaten by US Marines." Dark JVL style moment, but not without some truth to it. I don't know. I'm feeling pretty down about it all after an interchange with a MAGA friend.
I can't find anybody who doesn't believe in the MAGA reality or the Dems/never Trumpers reality. I can't find anybody who is able to see a bigger picture. I don't know if I am able to see a bigger picture.
Still gonna go to the biggest city near me and hold my dumb sign. Faith is what you have when you don't believe.
I hear you. Does it change your thinking at all to consider what conclusion the busy, semi-apathetic people are likely to draw when the split screen that they see on Saturday is: one one side, a relatively chaotic scene of disorganized masses of protestors waving mismatching signs; and on the other, military might marching through streets flanked by white marble buildings, showcasing crisp precision and order?
So what did you think of the split screen?
I was very relieved. But honestly, I feel like that’s due more to us getting lucky than to any grand strategic coup by the protest organizers. If the parade had been more impressive (and, now that it’s normalized and T has been mocked for its wimpiness, I would bet that next time it will be) then I think my points all stand. What did you think?
I agree. It was a lucky day.
Where I was, the protest was a really happy, fun event, and I liked the idea that people who are beginning to grow disenchanted with Trump might see that contrast to the violent images of LA. But: I’m not naive enough to think that the images from LA won’t leave a more striking impression, and that they won’t get the most press.
I really liked seeing the masses on the press. I liked the juxtaposition of all the bodies at the protests and sparse attendance at the parade. (I have not checked to see the footage of the parade from Trump media though. Angles that showed more people may not have shown up on anti-Trump media.)
It was framed by so many bad things though. I had a discussion with a MAGA friend re LA and the MN shootings that led me to decide to quit discussing politics with them. Not because of bad feelings, but just because I became more fully aware of the difference in what we consider trusted sources. It’s like we live on two different planets.
Point being: Although it looked like a lucky day to me, I also saw opinion pieces that really had no clue what even the peaceful protests were about, and I’m sure there is also plenty of press out there that puts Trump’s parade in a good light.
There are two split screens.
I really don't know what conclusion they are likely to draw. I'll think on it a bit. Are you thinking the alternative screen to the military might with precision and order would be protesters confronting the tanks etc in the parade?
Perhaps; or, at a minimum, lining the sides of the parade route with signs of opposition (eg No Kings, Respect Due Process)
I need to read your comments over as I'm kind of muddled over who has said what at this point lol, but another thing I thought of is that I think that one never has to call for violence.
There are people out there who are going to do it anyway, and there are MAGA who will react back to it.
My statement is that I'm against violence because it is wrong. I don't want people who are working for the things I believe in to be violent. Antifa is stupid and to my mind, just a bunch of baristas and bike messengers at play. (I lived a long time in SF Bay Area.) The things that replace violent revolutions are often worse than the original thing being protested.
If things are really messed up, violence will happen, and it will scare lots of people, and there will be all kinds of reactions, and if we are lucky, some of them will be productive. Remember Rodney King: Can't we all get along?
I have also had these thoughts:
If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.
I remember learning during the Arab Spring that there was actually a sort of "Color Revolution School" that the Egyptian activists had been working with for at least a year prior. There's a guy who wrote books that the Serbians based the project on. Possibly the CIA helped.
Didn't the Russian revolution actually start to really move for the people because the govt was so harsh on regular protesting people that the army got on their side?
I actually disagree with JVL's premise that protesting is not a "let a thousand flowers bloom" situation.
I think when all kinds of things are happening it sets up a dynamic moving system, and if we are lucky, we hit the right mix that makes something shift. Unexpected things emerge out of complex systems.
The goal I think hobbyist activists like me can achieve is to get people who have been Trump supporters, but not heavy duty MAGA, and now are feeling like he is doing a bad job, to start telling their Republican Congress people that they don't like what is happening. Congress is one of the things in place to stop this. It might not work, but it is a thing to try.
“If I recall, the Civil Rights movement was actually highly organized, and organized specifically to create disturbing visual images.”
This is exactly my point. The current protest movement seems organized specifically *not* to create such images.
And on this vector, do you still feel that Tienanmen failed? It clarified, more firmly than virtually anything else could, the nature of the ruling regime. Note that China had to essentially build its own internet to control the dissemination of this image because of its fear of the image’s power. The regime recognizes that awareness of this incident among the body politic is an existential threat. The decision globally to prioritize economic interests and ignore such human rights abuses is an indictment of capitalism more than a mark of the demonstrators’ failure.
"organized specifically *not* to create such images."
I think it is more like it is organized to insulate it more fully from the possibility that a disturbing image could be interpreted as instigated by mal-intentioned radical left lunatics. It's just a bunch of silly old white people! Or maybe I shouldn't say it is organized to be that way as such. That is just how it is playing out so far. I do like that POC are staying home a lot. I think that is wise. But I would bet that has changed now even in this section (the indivisible section). Things evolve.
My main point is that many kinds of protest is likely better than figuring out what the best kind of protest is. The anti-MAGA version of flooding the zone? Idk.
Your description of how Tienanmen succeeded is sobering.
I also was thinking: Wait...but Tienanmen didn't work.
My thoughts ran as far as to: "I think the most striking image would be if a crowd of my fellow hobbyist activists end up being brutally beaten by US Marines." Dark JVL style moment, but not without some truth to it. I don't know. I'm feeling pretty down about it all after an interchange with a MAGA friend.
I can't find anybody who doesn't believe in the MAGA reality or the Dems/never Trumpers reality. I can't find anybody who is able to see a bigger picture. I don't know if I am able to see a bigger picture.
Still gonna go to the biggest city near me and hold my dumb sign. Faith is what you have when you don't believe.