I've gone back and forth myself, having been mostly anti-war after Iraq/Afghanistan, but Ukraine is a very different kind of conflict from those ones in principle, practice, and potential fallout. This time around I see a greater cost in our inaction than in our action, the irony is that our over-reaction to 9/11 is what has drained us o…
I've gone back and forth myself, having been mostly anti-war after Iraq/Afghanistan, but Ukraine is a very different kind of conflict from those ones in principle, practice, and potential fallout. This time around I see a greater cost in our inaction than in our action, the irony is that our over-reaction to 9/11 is what has drained us of the necessary political capital to support a new war elsewhere. Putin knew this sentiment was there and that he could capitalize on it. He was ultimately right in the end and the proof is in the national distancing from any new conflicts save for us getting attacked again I guess. This precedent will create more enemies and make them bolder in the future once they sense weakness in the air the way a shark sniffs out blood. That's how folks like Trump and Putin wait for "their moment" when the water is nice and warm and the men are nice and weak. When they know in advance that they'll get away with it because they have nukes or because the west is soft or whatever. "When you're a star they let you do it." This is how *predators* in general think, and this is how they apply leverage and alleviate risk when they need to to get what they want.
I don't think US overreacted to 9/11 as much as Bush overreached by pulling out of A'stan before the job was done, to go after Saddam in Iraq because he wanted to (speaking of regime change). That set the costly bloody failures over there. And it wasn't as though we couldn't see it coming, cuz it was easy to see if you looked. Just like it is easy to see now if you are willing to look. Nation of Ostrich? (BTW, we got Trump because, in part, the GOP spent decades dumbing down public education, removing Civics classes, not teaching the basics even, and Dems wanted school to be about social justice instead of STEM apparently. I guess servant classes don't need much edumacation.)
I'd say that the outcome of *any* conflict is unknown from the start, but the same could be said in the direction of *inaction*. Wouldn't we be *assuming* that our stance of inaction wouldn't cause some unknown horrors to happen in the future? I'd say it's just as dangerous to get rather imaginative in one direction and rather unimaginative in the other.
What I *do* know is the nature of bullies and people comfortable with levels of violence that others are not. I have grown up and lived in that environment, and I have seen the costs of setting weak precedents that seem small at first and come to be the first domino in something much larger. "The appetite grows with the eating" as the Russian saying goes. Give a mouse a cookie today, who knows how tall that glass of milk will be tomorrow. This doesn't end with Ukraine or even Europe because this is about what The West is willing to do/not do and what kind of blood that puts in the water for the men who will follow in Putin's shoes. We live in the world we create folks.
I've gone back and forth myself, having been mostly anti-war after Iraq/Afghanistan, but Ukraine is a very different kind of conflict from those ones in principle, practice, and potential fallout. This time around I see a greater cost in our inaction than in our action, the irony is that our over-reaction to 9/11 is what has drained us of the necessary political capital to support a new war elsewhere. Putin knew this sentiment was there and that he could capitalize on it. He was ultimately right in the end and the proof is in the national distancing from any new conflicts save for us getting attacked again I guess. This precedent will create more enemies and make them bolder in the future once they sense weakness in the air the way a shark sniffs out blood. That's how folks like Trump and Putin wait for "their moment" when the water is nice and warm and the men are nice and weak. When they know in advance that they'll get away with it because they have nukes or because the west is soft or whatever. "When you're a star they let you do it." This is how *predators* in general think, and this is how they apply leverage and alleviate risk when they need to to get what they want.
I don't think US overreacted to 9/11 as much as Bush overreached by pulling out of A'stan before the job was done, to go after Saddam in Iraq because he wanted to (speaking of regime change). That set the costly bloody failures over there. And it wasn't as though we couldn't see it coming, cuz it was easy to see if you looked. Just like it is easy to see now if you are willing to look. Nation of Ostrich? (BTW, we got Trump because, in part, the GOP spent decades dumbing down public education, removing Civics classes, not teaching the basics even, and Dems wanted school to be about social justice instead of STEM apparently. I guess servant classes don't need much edumacation.)
Travis I don't disagree with anything you wrote on this post, but I will mention that the outcome of this current conflict is unknown.
What if we find out that a coalition of countries and economies can cause more damage to Russia than beating them militarily in Ukraine?
I feel like you are espousing that we've already lost because we're playing the long game. Are you so sure of the outcome of a short-game strategy?
I'd say that the outcome of *any* conflict is unknown from the start, but the same could be said in the direction of *inaction*. Wouldn't we be *assuming* that our stance of inaction wouldn't cause some unknown horrors to happen in the future? I'd say it's just as dangerous to get rather imaginative in one direction and rather unimaginative in the other.
What I *do* know is the nature of bullies and people comfortable with levels of violence that others are not. I have grown up and lived in that environment, and I have seen the costs of setting weak precedents that seem small at first and come to be the first domino in something much larger. "The appetite grows with the eating" as the Russian saying goes. Give a mouse a cookie today, who knows how tall that glass of milk will be tomorrow. This doesn't end with Ukraine or even Europe because this is about what The West is willing to do/not do and what kind of blood that puts in the water for the men who will follow in Putin's shoes. We live in the world we create folks.
Don't you think that's why Biden is working so hard to firm the line in the sand at NATO borders? Ukraine is kind of a sacrifice?