Funny, the Germans and Japanese haven't resurrected Hitler or Tojo since we taught them a brutal lesson. The ancient Jews became docile for 2000 years after the Romans did their thing. You don't hear much about Carthage any more. Can't imagine why.
I don't care how much or for how long the Palestinian Arabs hate Israel. Just as long as th…
Funny, the Germans and Japanese haven't resurrected Hitler or Tojo since we taught them a brutal lesson. The ancient Jews became docile for 2000 years after the Romans did their thing. You don't hear much about Carthage any more. Can't imagine why.
I don't care how much or for how long the Palestinian Arabs hate Israel. Just as long as they value their lives, families and homes more than they do slaughtering Israelis for the sheer joy of it.
And if they all prefer literally to die (which I seriously doubt), that'll be their choice, after all.
Anyway, what "room" was there to "manoeuvre" when Hamas was in power? I thought the rap on Bibi Netanyahu was that he and his friends were too *nice* to Hamas. That they did everything they could to funnel money into Gaza while Hamas was in charge. That they downplayed the danger. What more could a genocidal terrorist ask for?
as a additional though to put to you....did the british empire defeat the IRA? the answer is no, did the united kingdom defeat the IRA? No,it didnt,it still exits[more reduced now as a gangster organistion now,less a poltiical arm]....did the Empire smash southern ireland? would that have bought the IRA to its knees,or would it ganner more support for the IRA? it was the latter, the empire knew that bringing its full force to southern ireland, would not make things better,it would make things worse by using force majeure doesnt get you what you want...sometimes as we found , it took diplomacy to solve these issues? is it fixed? Not really, they are still working things thru, but at least they have stopped killing each other :(
funny that you mention the germans and the japanese?we might add there are american garrisons in both countries and both countries have written into their new government rules that they are not allowed to use their forces outside their own countries?
From my reading of ancient jewish people , they were never docile, they were well know for being fierce fighters indeed[as where many peoples in ancient times in certain areas]? [the battle of masada is one i have well read, which lead to the brillant Josephus, working his way into roman life and obtaining high position thru merit,i believe]
As for the Romans they were ruthless as are most empires...cathage was anilated, and the usual premise once a city was taken , was that every man,woman and child, in fact anything that lived and moved was killed? are you advocating israel should do that? hopefully not? :(
Well they probably did value home, family and working for a living....when it was available[as israel controlled the access, thats all in the past now thou , sadly? :(
"And if they all prefer literally to die (which I seriously doubt), that'll be their choice, after all."- some people refer to palestinians as animals...- refer you to the seven samurai quote -
"What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it..."
the room to maneavour was that at that period[20 years of hamas rule and harassment]that the population of gaza, at least [according to polls] hated hamas more than israel, that was the chance to get on theirside...but its just easier to blanket all the gazans together[especially when you have murderous rage and you need to appease the people], say they are all hamas[which many on israel tv do regularly] and then condemn them as one..far easier than , than to understand nauce.....as on the Albigensian Crusade,when a crusader captured a town with both christians and cathars inside[the crusade was against cathars- a particular sect of christainity],he addressed a abbott about the townsfolk, and said "how will i know the innocent Christian population from the cathers?"..the abbott had a quick reply "Kill them all, God will know his own" :(
yeah as you say the politics of Bibi counts for much here , certainly not to stabilization of the region, certainly not for peace in the region and the safety of israel, and certainly not for the good :(
Sorry, I have neither the time nor the inclination to plow through enormous blocks of words which the writer doesn't even bother to divide into digestible paragraphs.
it sadly speaks much to your requirements that grammer is more important to you than the answers to questions you put...its almost as if you defer to grammer excuse is just a escape to answers you didnt want to hear? :( [i think you never had the inclination to listen to anything i said anyways-so what changed?-winks] :(
Right, like I'm obliged to waste my time and energy and ultimately nod off trying to decipher your self-indulgent bloviating.
.
There are a handful of interminable cranks like you on this site and I'm going to treat you the same way I treat them: From now on, every message I get from you goes directly, unopened and unread, in the trash..
It was clever. You are welcome. I guess you lied, you aren't done after all. Shocker. That easily triggered huh? I see the common traits with an equally easily triggered state of Israel which as it commits genocide also claims to be a victim. Un-real.
Awww nice attempt. You know who the genocidal Hutu extremist government has more in common with in this genocide? The Israeli extremist government. Both like the Nazis before them are indiscriminately massacring civilians in an effort to ethnically cleanse their countries of unwanted civilians. Israel is engaged in genocide. I know, I was on the receiving end of a genocidal government when I was 8 years old in Rwanda. I know what genocide looks like and Israel's conduct today smells and looks like the Hutu government in Rwanda. But you do know that. Thats why you are trying so hard to deflect Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocidal campaign. Did that go according to how you thought it would?
I'm sorry you had to endure actual genocide. But you of all people should be able to tell the real thing from propaganda.
Google almost anything by John Spencer. If you won't listen to an expert like him, there's obviously nothing I or anybody else could ever say or write that would open your eyes.
But if you come across authentic footage of Israelis systematically hacking thousands of helpless civilians to death, or lining them up in pits and shooting them, or herding them into gas chambers, or forcing them into the desert or up into the mountains without food, water, shelter
or medicine - or raping, mutilating, shooting and burning unarmed civilians alive as Hamas triumphantly did on October 7 - please send it to me and I will take it very seriously.
I appreciate your kind thoughts. It is however because I have endured actual genocide, lost my entire extended maternal family that I am calling out the similarities with what the Israeli leadership is doing. Hamas committed a terrorist attack on Israel. The Israeli campaign however started bordering on genocide and has quickly run past that line and is into genocide territory. Each genocide is different. In 1994, people were saying it isn't a genocide because they were no gas chambers in Rwanda. The mistake people make is that they are stuck in the last genocide to see what is going on.
What constitute a genocide is an intent by the state carry out the "deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Required is intent by the state and execution by its armed forces. Israeli leaders at all levels have uttered comments since October that have demonstrated genocidal intent, the Israeli armed forces have conducted a campaign that has left Gazans civilians without food, water, shelter, or medicine" according to your own statement. Israeli drones have mutilated, shot, burned unarmed civilians, Israeli soldiers have stream lived themselves triumphantly destroying Palestinian homes with inhabitants in them. Everything you allege Hamas did on one day, Israel is doing for seven months and has killed 30 times the same amount of people. Is that how a civilized nation behaves? Reports from human rights organization reports of Israeli troops raping and torturing Palestinians. It is untenable to call this daily evidence propaganda, Israeli claims are increasingly untethered to reality and more and more becoming propaganda.
I am happy to actually have a discussion with you, not sure we will ever agree. The guy you presented is simply not a credible source for this topic. His claims are far more propaganda than actual fact based assertions. He also provides no evidence for his claims. Just speculates. We are far from exchanging evidence. For people to exchange evidence of their claims, they have to first agree on the basic premises. You and I have not even established the basic premises.
Even were I to stipulate to what you are asserting (and experts like John Spencer certainly claim otherwise), the upshot would be that Israel is morally obliged to let Hamas survive to threaten both Israel and any non jihadis in the vicinity.
Moreover, Hamas's strategy of deliberately violating international law to purposely maximize its own side's civilian casualties would become an accepted part of warfare, and Israel's faults would be cited as evidence that resisting organizations like Hamas was too great an evil in and of itself to be tolerable or worthwhile.
So the world would condemn itself to rule by savages because non-savages were forbidden to call their bloody bluff.
Ie, its fault in his view has lain, ironically, in prolonging the war - thereby *increasing* collateral suffering - to satisfy its critics who either don't understand that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." or, for cynical political reasons, don't care.
But If I actually had to choose between having Israel do either what Spencer recommends or what it is currently doing - even if it meant that its leaders were *properly* indicted for war crimes - and giving Hamas and its allies a new and indefinite lease on life, I would accept the former tradeoff. I simply wouldn't want to live in a world where brutality is treated, let alone politically rewarded, as an international norm. I'd rather Israeli leaders were criminally convicted but Hamas and its ilk were soundly defeated than see the latter win.
Realistically, I think Israel will eventually prevail, and I hope Israelis who've committed real, provable crimes are punished. If only because I think the truly fanatical settlers and some of Bibi Netanyahu's coalition partners who coddle or encourage them endanger Israeli social cohesion, not to mention military discipline. (Ben-Gvir, for example, is apparently upset that the IDF doesn't summarily, shoot terrorists (real or suspected) who've already laid down their weapons and surrendered.)
The IDF is a moral professional military organization with also, like any good army, a scattering of disreputable members. The political echelon in Israel today, like many others of its kind has a superabundance of loudmouths. Btw, simply shooting your mouth off intemperately in public after a massacre of your own people, in a manner nonetheless reasonably perceived to be indiscriminately homicidal, may even be a separate war crime if you're a politician with the power tangibly to effect your sentiments. But it's not remotely genocide, though I can understand why it might trigger people who have their own horrible memories.
Funny, the Germans and Japanese haven't resurrected Hitler or Tojo since we taught them a brutal lesson. The ancient Jews became docile for 2000 years after the Romans did their thing. You don't hear much about Carthage any more. Can't imagine why.
I don't care how much or for how long the Palestinian Arabs hate Israel. Just as long as they value their lives, families and homes more than they do slaughtering Israelis for the sheer joy of it.
And if they all prefer literally to die (which I seriously doubt), that'll be their choice, after all.
Anyway, what "room" was there to "manoeuvre" when Hamas was in power? I thought the rap on Bibi Netanyahu was that he and his friends were too *nice* to Hamas. That they did everything they could to funnel money into Gaza while Hamas was in charge. That they downplayed the danger. What more could a genocidal terrorist ask for?
as a additional though to put to you....did the british empire defeat the IRA? the answer is no, did the united kingdom defeat the IRA? No,it didnt,it still exits[more reduced now as a gangster organistion now,less a poltiical arm]....did the Empire smash southern ireland? would that have bought the IRA to its knees,or would it ganner more support for the IRA? it was the latter, the empire knew that bringing its full force to southern ireland, would not make things better,it would make things worse by using force majeure doesnt get you what you want...sometimes as we found , it took diplomacy to solve these issues? is it fixed? Not really, they are still working things thru, but at least they have stopped killing each other :(
funny that you mention the germans and the japanese?we might add there are american garrisons in both countries and both countries have written into their new government rules that they are not allowed to use their forces outside their own countries?
From my reading of ancient jewish people , they were never docile, they were well know for being fierce fighters indeed[as where many peoples in ancient times in certain areas]? [the battle of masada is one i have well read, which lead to the brillant Josephus, working his way into roman life and obtaining high position thru merit,i believe]
As for the Romans they were ruthless as are most empires...cathage was anilated, and the usual premise once a city was taken , was that every man,woman and child, in fact anything that lived and moved was killed? are you advocating israel should do that? hopefully not? :(
Well they probably did value home, family and working for a living....when it was available[as israel controlled the access, thats all in the past now thou , sadly? :(
"And if they all prefer literally to die (which I seriously doubt), that'll be their choice, after all."- some people refer to palestinians as animals...- refer you to the seven samurai quote -
"What do you think of farmers? You think they're saints? Hah! They're foxy beasts! They say, "We've got no rice, we've no wheat. We've got nothing!" But they have! They have everything! Dig under the floors! Or search the barns! You'll find plenty! Beans, salt, rice, sake! Look in the valleys, they've got hidden warehouses! They pose as saints but are full of lies! If they smell a battle, they hunt the defeated! They're nothing but stingy, greedy, blubbering, foxy, and mean! God damn it all! But then . . . who made them such beasts? You did! You samurai did it! You burn their villages! Destroy their farms! Steal their food! Force them to labour! Take their women! And kill them if they resist! So what should farmers do? Damn it... [He sinks to his knees, sobbing] Damn it... God damn it..."
the room to maneavour was that at that period[20 years of hamas rule and harassment]that the population of gaza, at least [according to polls] hated hamas more than israel, that was the chance to get on theirside...but its just easier to blanket all the gazans together[especially when you have murderous rage and you need to appease the people], say they are all hamas[which many on israel tv do regularly] and then condemn them as one..far easier than , than to understand nauce.....as on the Albigensian Crusade,when a crusader captured a town with both christians and cathars inside[the crusade was against cathars- a particular sect of christainity],he addressed a abbott about the townsfolk, and said "how will i know the innocent Christian population from the cathers?"..the abbott had a quick reply "Kill them all, God will know his own" :(
yeah as you say the politics of Bibi counts for much here , certainly not to stabilization of the region, certainly not for peace in the region and the safety of israel, and certainly not for the good :(
Sorry, I have neither the time nor the inclination to plow through enormous blocks of words which the writer doesn't even bother to divide into digestible paragraphs.
Also I'm done with this conversation anyway.
But please have a nice day.
it sadly speaks much to your requirements that grammer is more important to you than the answers to questions you put...its almost as if you defer to grammer excuse is just a escape to answers you didnt want to hear? :( [i think you never had the inclination to listen to anything i said anyways-so what changed?-winks] :(
Right, like I'm obliged to waste my time and energy and ultimately nod off trying to decipher your self-indulgent bloviating.
.
There are a handful of interminable cranks like you on this site and I'm going to treat you the same way I treat them: From now on, every message I get from you goes directly, unopened and unread, in the trash..
So go annoy someone else, if he'll humor you
Bye.
We're going to miss your genocidal rumblings. Not.
That was so clever. I bet you got all the way through fourth grade without special ed.
It was clever. You are welcome. I guess you lied, you aren't done after all. Shocker. That easily triggered huh? I see the common traits with an equally easily triggered state of Israel which as it commits genocide also claims to be a victim. Un-real.
So, which side were you on in Rwanda? Judging from your mindset, probably the Hutus.
Awww nice attempt. You know who the genocidal Hutu extremist government has more in common with in this genocide? The Israeli extremist government. Both like the Nazis before them are indiscriminately massacring civilians in an effort to ethnically cleanse their countries of unwanted civilians. Israel is engaged in genocide. I know, I was on the receiving end of a genocidal government when I was 8 years old in Rwanda. I know what genocide looks like and Israel's conduct today smells and looks like the Hutu government in Rwanda. But you do know that. Thats why you are trying so hard to deflect Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocidal campaign. Did that go according to how you thought it would?
https://youtu.be/sP5JHNDZqbQ?feature=shared
I'm sorry you had to endure actual genocide. But you of all people should be able to tell the real thing from propaganda.
Google almost anything by John Spencer. If you won't listen to an expert like him, there's obviously nothing I or anybody else could ever say or write that would open your eyes.
But if you come across authentic footage of Israelis systematically hacking thousands of helpless civilians to death, or lining them up in pits and shooting them, or herding them into gas chambers, or forcing them into the desert or up into the mountains without food, water, shelter
or medicine - or raping, mutilating, shooting and burning unarmed civilians alive as Hamas triumphantly did on October 7 - please send it to me and I will take it very seriously.
I appreciate your kind thoughts. It is however because I have endured actual genocide, lost my entire extended maternal family that I am calling out the similarities with what the Israeli leadership is doing. Hamas committed a terrorist attack on Israel. The Israeli campaign however started bordering on genocide and has quickly run past that line and is into genocide territory. Each genocide is different. In 1994, people were saying it isn't a genocide because they were no gas chambers in Rwanda. The mistake people make is that they are stuck in the last genocide to see what is going on.
What constitute a genocide is an intent by the state carry out the "deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." Required is intent by the state and execution by its armed forces. Israeli leaders at all levels have uttered comments since October that have demonstrated genocidal intent, the Israeli armed forces have conducted a campaign that has left Gazans civilians without food, water, shelter, or medicine" according to your own statement. Israeli drones have mutilated, shot, burned unarmed civilians, Israeli soldiers have stream lived themselves triumphantly destroying Palestinian homes with inhabitants in them. Everything you allege Hamas did on one day, Israel is doing for seven months and has killed 30 times the same amount of people. Is that how a civilized nation behaves? Reports from human rights organization reports of Israeli troops raping and torturing Palestinians. It is untenable to call this daily evidence propaganda, Israeli claims are increasingly untethered to reality and more and more becoming propaganda.
I am happy to actually have a discussion with you, not sure we will ever agree. The guy you presented is simply not a credible source for this topic. His claims are far more propaganda than actual fact based assertions. He also provides no evidence for his claims. Just speculates. We are far from exchanging evidence. For people to exchange evidence of their claims, they have to first agree on the basic premises. You and I have not even established the basic premises.
Even were I to stipulate to what you are asserting (and experts like John Spencer certainly claim otherwise), the upshot would be that Israel is morally obliged to let Hamas survive to threaten both Israel and any non jihadis in the vicinity.
Moreover, Hamas's strategy of deliberately violating international law to purposely maximize its own side's civilian casualties would become an accepted part of warfare, and Israel's faults would be cited as evidence that resisting organizations like Hamas was too great an evil in and of itself to be tolerable or worthwhile.
So the world would condemn itself to rule by savages because non-savages were forbidden to call their bloody bluff.
Of course, Spencer himself believes Israel has actually conducted the war more humanely than literally any army in history. And not necessarily for the better. https://www.newsweek.com/israel-has-created-new-standard-urban-warfare-why-will-no-one-admit-it-opinion-1883286
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/17/opinions/israel-gaza-hamas-war-us-arms-spencer
Ie, its fault in his view has lain, ironically, in prolonging the war - thereby *increasing* collateral suffering - to satisfy its critics who either don't understand that "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." or, for cynical political reasons, don't care.
But If I actually had to choose between having Israel do either what Spencer recommends or what it is currently doing - even if it meant that its leaders were *properly* indicted for war crimes - and giving Hamas and its allies a new and indefinite lease on life, I would accept the former tradeoff. I simply wouldn't want to live in a world where brutality is treated, let alone politically rewarded, as an international norm. I'd rather Israeli leaders were criminally convicted but Hamas and its ilk were soundly defeated than see the latter win.
Realistically, I think Israel will eventually prevail, and I hope Israelis who've committed real, provable crimes are punished. If only because I think the truly fanatical settlers and some of Bibi Netanyahu's coalition partners who coddle or encourage them endanger Israeli social cohesion, not to mention military discipline. (Ben-Gvir, for example, is apparently upset that the IDF doesn't summarily, shoot terrorists (real or suspected) who've already laid down their weapons and surrendered.)
The IDF is a moral professional military organization with also, like any good army, a scattering of disreputable members. The political echelon in Israel today, like many others of its kind has a superabundance of loudmouths. Btw, simply shooting your mouth off intemperately in public after a massacre of your own people, in a manner nonetheless reasonably perceived to be indiscriminately homicidal, may even be a separate war crime if you're a politician with the power tangibly to effect your sentiments. But it's not remotely genocide, though I can understand why it might trigger people who have their own horrible memories.
.