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Carolyn Phipps's avatar

Travis, I am so, so sorry you have to live with that.

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Travis's avatar

It's why I don't just think we should raise the age for buying rifles, we should raise the minimum age requirement for military service to 21 as well. The younger you are when you experience trauma like that, the more it sticks with you for life. Your brain is still developing in your late teen years. The pentagon just doesn't want to lose the opportunity to get dumb kids right out of high school to sign up under contracts they can't walk out of ("volunteer force" my ass). If they had to recruit from the 25+ crowd--or even the 21+ crowd, their recruiting numbers would plummet. So to keep recruiting levels manageable, they make the tradeoff of traumatizing contracted child soldiers for life instead of drafting the 25+ crowd. It makes no sense to me. They took my stripes away for underage drinking after my second combat tour right after we lost a guy. The way the military handles its personnel is a disgrace in comparison to what we give to them. At least there's the VA disability money I guess.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Agreed. I'd argue that because kids' brains are still developing, we should raise the age of consent for everything to 21: military service, drinking, driving, marriage, all of it. Set up a system of judges who can grant exceptions for all of that, such as emancipation from nasty parents.

Adults should run their lives as they see fit. Kids need more protection, as they're still learning the game of life.

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Terry Hilldale's avatar

The decision-making center, the pre-frontal cortex is not mature until about age 25. One of the worst things that happened to college-age kids is when universities did not have to answer to the parents anymore. It may have something to do with the explosion in student loans

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Given that, one thing we could try is age-related permission for types of weapons:

--Raise the age for owning any gun to 21.

--At 21, you can own and operate only reduced-capacity weapons: revolvers or restricted-capacity pistols; pump shotguns; bolt-action or low-round semiautomatic rifles.

--At 25, when your brain is fully adult, you can own the rest.

--Create a national licensing system--safety, training, background checks, etc.--that allows underage citizens access to the full kit.

I would also raise the age for drinking, driving, and military service to 21, because of that brain-maturity science.

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R Mercer's avatar

WRT Adulthood:

Most people are not adults until at least their mid twenties--this is due to a combination of actual physical development/maturation and simply having enough actual life experience.

The inexperienced and immature nature of youth is something that any military depends upon. You can get them to do stupid shit because they don't really realize it is stupid shit--it isn't fully REAL to them and their risk assessment is horrible.

I teach high school, I watch these people make bad decision after bad decision every day, multiple times a day.

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Travis's avatar

100% You don't realize how close you were to death until well after service.

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R Mercer's avatar

Ya, I always felt at least slightly shit upon (sometimes heavily shit upon) when I was in the service (1980-88)... and this was in the era before serving was "cool" and "popular."

I went into a public 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,

The publican 'e up an' sez, " We serve no red-coats here."

The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,

I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:

O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, go away " ;

But it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play

The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,

O it's " Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,

They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;

They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,

But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' " Tommy, wait outside ";

But it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide

The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,

O it's " Special train for Atkins " when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep

Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap.

An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit

Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, 'ow's yer soul? "

But it's " Thin red line of 'eroes " when the drums begin to roll

The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,

O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes, " when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,

But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;

An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,

Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Tommy, fall be'ind,"

But it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind

There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,

O it's " Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:

We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.

Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face

The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "

But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;

An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;

An 'Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!

Kipling.

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Shane Gericke's avatar

Kipling was a genius in many ways. This and his ode to dying on Afghanistan plains are masterpieces of how societies treat their war fighters.

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Terry Hilldale's avatar

On the other hand, soldiers have a well-earned reputation for causing trouble, even in peacetime deployments like right now in Okinawa. As long as they stay in the officers' club or the enlisted club, fine. But then when they go out "into the economy," they suddenly forget the manners their mothers taught them, even while doing mundane things like riding the bus.

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R Mercer's avatar

That is largely because of a couple of factors:

1) The general youth of military personnel these days (and corresponding lack of maturity);

2) As has tended to be the case through most of history, many of these enlisted come from the lower strata of society;

3) It is a high stress job and it tends to lead to aberrant behavior (by civilian standards)--because, in the end, military culture is significantly different from civilian culture and the value systems and ethics are quite different. Being in the military is one of the more extreme versions of in and out group behavior.

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Terry Hilldale's avatar

During the Vietnam era draft, draft age was 18 but adult age for everything else was 21. People repeatedly lobbied to change the draft age to 21 on the grounds we should not be sending children to war. The appalling government response was to declare those children to be adults by changing adult age to 18 for almost everything (with a couple of exceptions that make no sense if the children really are adults).

The change has caused a number of knock-on problems which I won't go into now.

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Marycat2021's avatar

The military also took 17 year olds who were willing to go to Vietnam to avoid a jail sentence. I've heard stories of guys flying over there, then sitting on a Navy ship waiting to turn 18 when they would be deployed to an army unit.

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Travis's avatar

I signed the contract at 17 in 2003 after doing a 2-stretch in juvi lol

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Thomas's avatar

Really appreciate your comments and candor on here over the while, Travis. Thanks for taking the time - I always learn something from your posts :thumbsup

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Travis's avatar

I aim to please

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