Let me get this right. Mr Thierer is all for data centers because they provide temporary construction jobs for blue collar workers. These completed data centers will then cost millions of blue, pink, and white collar workers their jobs, put the blue collar construction workers back in a tepid construction economy, raise power costs for residents surrounding them, and eat up millions of gallons of fresh water. This is some of the most short sighted thinking I've ever seen, but then too many in today's economy seem perfectly willing to grab short term gains in exchange for long term pain. Just wait and see what happens when the tech stock market bubble bursts.
All this and more. Every day we get new stories that ratchet up the profound misgivings about where this technology is taking us. The Bulwark participating in reducing this issue to just some Nimby vs. Yimby skirmish is very disappointing.
Colleen - our economy doesn’t seem to involve long term thinking. The time to build out a data center could be a whole fiscal year, we often don’t look past this quarter
Came here for exactly this -- these construction jobs are short term but he consequences of these data centers are being felt already and the people that live near by are suffering them.
I get your point and Im not even familiar with all details so it may truly be horrible, but I remember reading that the invention of the car caused major economic anxiety. People worried about the old horse-and-carriage jobs disappearing, drivers and carriage makers, horse breeders, and stable owners and later, factory workers hated how assembly lines changed their labor.
They also hated the dust and horrible exhaust smells and the terrible noise.
Doesnt matter how we feel, there is nothing constant but change.
You make a good point about the auto industry and the disruption it caused. Coming from Detroit I feel compelled to make a couple of observations. Most important is the auto industry raised wages for low income workers helping to bring about the middle class. It added whole industries that added even more good paying jobs like trucking. The auto brought travel to millions more people and made this huge country more accessible to more people.
As for AI, the one thing we know for sure is it will cost millions of jobs. The rest is a bunch of speculation and feel good guesses about other down the road impacts.
Yes, but there is no constant but change. Im not for or against it. Im just saying technology happens and has bad and good effects on the world. But, you wont be able to put the genie back in the bottle.
It doesn’t matter whether we have jobs or not if the result of those jobs is no clean drinking water and unbreathable air. We could be constructing better and more beneficial things.
1. It's not the politicians driving opposition to data centers, it's the public. The politicians where these centers are being planned have mostly either tried to ignore public opposition or simply bypass any sort of public review process altogether. But it turns out people want to have a say in whether or not they are forced by the government to live next to a giant warehouse that makes their electricity and water bills more expensive, causes measurable noise pollution, and will more likely than not end up sitting empty when the "AI" bubble pops and the debt that was financing all this construction comes due without the projected revenue that's supposed to ultimately pay for everything materializing.
2. We could more usefully employ more construction workers by expanding and upgrading our energy grids, reforming zoning laws to get more housing built, and replacing other ancient and dangerous infrastructure like lead pipes and rotting bridges.
3. When an "AI" data center actually gets built and filled with equipment and turned on, it immediately starts losing money. It also ultimately employs only a handful of people long-term. They are not in any way shape or form a sustainable job creator, especially if you take all the "AI" hype at face value and these systems ultimately replace human workers. It's just a death pact dressed up with the latest hype buzzwords.
Will - to quibble a bit: #3 - the losing starts before construction cuz it’s pretty much all borrowed money. On #2 - Biden tried that infrastructure stuff but most has been stopped by exec orders and the OBBB (Oligarchs & Billionaires Budget Boondoggle) so apparently “the people” don’t want that woke stuff
'The trouble is—has been all along—that when it comes to Iran, Trump has no escape hatch. He can’t get out peacefully without giving Iran even more than he’s already been willing to offer, which would mean swallowing far more humiliations than even his adoring base would be willing to accept. And he can’t get out belligerently without ordering either mass war crimes on an unprecedented scale or a ground invasion—red lines even he seems unwilling to cross.
'All the bullshit and bluster aside, Trump knows he’s in real trouble here. Economically and politically, he’s running out of time.'
And Trump's biggest problem is the Iranians know it, too. I can't imagine they're in a mood to let him off the hook after he and Bibi liquidated the top tiers of their government, including the father of Iran's current leader. This is possibly the stupidest disaster in US presidential history, which shouldn't be too surprising, because we elected the stupidest president in US history. And we did it twice.
When I think about how totally fucked we are, it just leads me into spirals of undiluted misanthropy. Not towards my fellow Bulwarkers, but to the 77 million idiots who allowed this to happen. We are careening into global disasters like climate change and potentially AI, and we do not have four years to waste on electing the most corrupt idiot in US political history president again, and we don't have time to create out of thin air new global disasters like the Iran war, or trade wars against our allies. We need our allies now more than ever, and we need American global leadership now more than ever. We need a uniter on the global stage to lead in tackling global problems. And we chose this route instead. It's exasperating and infuriating.
As to your growing misanthropy, you’re not alone. I laughed out loud yesterday at a meeting of my rosary society. It was a committee reviewing our recent pasta night fundraiser, and some ladies were remarking that while the table seating plan I created—instead of numbering tables, I gave them the names of Italian cities, set them up alphabetically, and gave each guest a handmade postcard with their city name—was too confusing for people and next year we need to just use numbers. I said I had hoped to do something interesting and didn’t understand why people didn’t understand what I did. One of our oldest members looked at me and said, “honestly? People are stupid”. All the ladies burst out laughing. I feel like when a senior lady at a church meeting is calling people stupid, it’s got to be the truth. People are just so incurious and mentally *lazy*. It is maddening, really
Jordan being the drive wheel to refer Jack Smith is pretty ironic, given that he was also one of the drive wheels of the January 6 coup plot. He was in the thick of it from election day to the morning of January 6, when he spoke with Trump for two hours by phone. Frankly, I was surprised that he was not indicted.
Andrew: "The trouble is—has been all along—that when it comes to Iran, Trump has no escape hatch. He can’t get out peacefully without giving Iran even more than he’s already been willing to offer, which would mean swallowing far more humiliations than even his adoring base would be willing to accept. And he can’t get out belligerently without ordering either mass war crimes on an unprecedented scale or a ground invasion—red lines even he seems unwilling to cross."
I was reading Nick Catoggio yesterday regarding the nuclear agreement Trump made with the Saudis, and Nick had a throwaway line from the recently departed Lindsey Graham in the front part of Nick's piece. Graham's on record saying that if he wanted Trump to do something, the best way to get him to do it is to tell Trump how Barack Obama would handle a given situation and then rely on Trump to do the exact opposite. It was Trump, after all, who tore up the JCPOA simply because he hates Obama. And I believe there are still people in Trump's orbit that are pushing for a ground invasion that know how to push his buttons. Is it a high probability? No. Is it higher than it should be? Yes.
I also read that line about Lyndsey Graham knowing how to manipulate Trump by talking about Obama. The amazing thing is that not only American politicians but leaders in foreign governments, including the Iranians, know how to manipulate Donald Trump. He is that transparent to everyone except, apparently, himself and his weird MAGA cult people.
The thing about Trump is he never shuts his yap and he never fails to tell everyone what he's thinking at any given moment. And because he's a narcissist in love with the sound of his own voice, he doesn't appreciate the value of *not* saying anything. Iran's leadership are evil barbarians, but they're also sophisticated operators. As David Frum said yesterday on the flagship pod yesterday with JVL, they want the world to know they've got Trump by the shorthairs and they're going to humiliate him over and over in plain sight.
Are you sure that Iranian leadership is more barbaric than we are? One of the myths about the ancient Persian wars was that the Greeks convinced themselves that they were superior and civilized and then turned into expansionist imperialists themselves?
How many people did Iran's leadership kill during the protests just prior to the war? The last I checked, it was something on the order of 10K. At the moment, the federal judiciary and blue state governors are stopping us from sliding into that territory. I do believe if it were totally up to Trump and guys like Stephen Miller, the federal government would be fucking up a lot of people. But we're not there. Yet.
I agree that they suck, but we do too. Seems to me we are becoming more like them by the day. When I think about the victims of ice I am reminded that Josef Stalin once remarked one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic” They are preparing us to not only not care, but to actually revel in the future slaughter that keeps Stephen Miller drooling in delight.
Even Trump knows how manipulable he is. Yesterday I saw him sitting in front of the Oval Office fireplace, chuckling after the dignitary in the other chair complimented him, “See, he knows how to do it!”.
re: cheap shots - the politicians are adopting anti-AI data center rhetoric from the public, who are pissed. The data centers, once built, create few jobs, but lots of externalities that make life awful for folks living within earshot of the noise or downwind of the pollution, and the data centers drive up utility costs for electricity and water, for almost no local benefit.
And that's before we even get into AI being a lying, hallucinating, factually deficient, plagiarism machine that was designed to displace labor and fully deliver on the "you will own nothing and love it"future of a few tech broligarchs charging us rent for literally everything in our lives.
Politicians see us saying this, and say, hey, maybe people will vote for me if I vote to regulate or slow down or (don't tempt me with a good time) ban the pollution generating, utility cost increasing, plagiarism and labor displacement machines?
As NYT reports, American military bases in ME are being attacked. So, his "skirmish" is broadening into a regional war, as the Red Sea lanes might be closed due to the Houthis as the Straits are closed by Iran. But it's okay, as DonnieFelon offered the grieving family a ride on Air Force One.
As Trump endorses the idea that the Saudis should have nuclear enrichment capabilities that Iran must never, ever have, I begin to wonder whether we are a cat's paw in the dispute between Sunni and Shia Islam that's been going on since 632 AD.
Lost in all of the war discussion has been the steady drumbeat of nonsensical tariffs by Trump. In a time when the economy is already being squeezed it seems like a bad idea to make other things more expensive for no particularly good reason.
When MAGA people Like Colby are caught out, it is astonishing how meek they look! Also, it speaks to their utter ignorance of history. Canada became a country that embraced Empire Loyalists, many who came from the US. To suggest that their descendants would embrace the thinking of the US dominating Canada is farcical at best!
Jim Jordan versus Jack Smith: assistant coach Jordan has no reason to be embarrassed of his law degree from Capital University (Columbus OH) or of never practicing law (never passed bar exam because he never took one). He might, however, want to ask a qualified congressional staffer to advise him on the law he may have read about a quarter century ago before taking on a guy who litigated at The Hague
I suspect Trump is well aware of the idea that swing voters lock in by Labor Day, and I look forward to another memorandum of understanding by mid- to late August. To the staff at the Palace of Versailles, go ahead and pencil us in.
Hmmm...! Trump's version of a skirmish is "ridiculously ridiculous!" A skirmish does not expend a large part of the high-tech weapons in our inventory. How about a very damaging, high-tech war with no goals, no stategy, no planning and no definition of when we will reach our nonexistent goals.
Sorry, but Data Centers helping construction jobs is like their one, and temporary, good feature. Immense use of water and electricity and it's polluting effects, and AI taking over more o,f our lives. For temporary construction jobs. Um, no
The first Cheap Shot today strikes me as a little cheap on the part of The Bulwark. Ignoring all the profound misgivings about AI to make a snarky point about political hypocrisy lacks seriousness.
Let me get this right. Mr Thierer is all for data centers because they provide temporary construction jobs for blue collar workers. These completed data centers will then cost millions of blue, pink, and white collar workers their jobs, put the blue collar construction workers back in a tepid construction economy, raise power costs for residents surrounding them, and eat up millions of gallons of fresh water. This is some of the most short sighted thinking I've ever seen, but then too many in today's economy seem perfectly willing to grab short term gains in exchange for long term pain. Just wait and see what happens when the tech stock market bubble bursts.
All this and more. Every day we get new stories that ratchet up the profound misgivings about where this technology is taking us. The Bulwark participating in reducing this issue to just some Nimby vs. Yimby skirmish is very disappointing.
Those construction workers could also be building reasonably priced housing. We csn have construction jobs, plus avoiding the data center BS.
reminds me of pipeline ' jobs '
Colleen - our economy doesn’t seem to involve long term thinking. The time to build out a data center could be a whole fiscal year, we often don’t look past this quarter
Came here for exactly this -- these construction jobs are short term but he consequences of these data centers are being felt already and the people that live near by are suffering them.
I get your point and Im not even familiar with all details so it may truly be horrible, but I remember reading that the invention of the car caused major economic anxiety. People worried about the old horse-and-carriage jobs disappearing, drivers and carriage makers, horse breeders, and stable owners and later, factory workers hated how assembly lines changed their labor.
They also hated the dust and horrible exhaust smells and the terrible noise.
Doesnt matter how we feel, there is nothing constant but change.
You make a good point about the auto industry and the disruption it caused. Coming from Detroit I feel compelled to make a couple of observations. Most important is the auto industry raised wages for low income workers helping to bring about the middle class. It added whole industries that added even more good paying jobs like trucking. The auto brought travel to millions more people and made this huge country more accessible to more people.
As for AI, the one thing we know for sure is it will cost millions of jobs. The rest is a bunch of speculation and feel good guesses about other down the road impacts.
Yes, but there is no constant but change. Im not for or against it. Im just saying technology happens and has bad and good effects on the world. But, you wont be able to put the genie back in the bottle.
It doesn’t matter whether we have jobs or not if the result of those jobs is no clean drinking water and unbreathable air. We could be constructing better and more beneficial things.
"But Donald Trump doesn’t do dignified."
Understatement of the century.
Yeah, but he didn't look at his watch so it's all good. 😀
21st *and* 20th centuries.
A few points in re: that first cheap shot.
1. It's not the politicians driving opposition to data centers, it's the public. The politicians where these centers are being planned have mostly either tried to ignore public opposition or simply bypass any sort of public review process altogether. But it turns out people want to have a say in whether or not they are forced by the government to live next to a giant warehouse that makes their electricity and water bills more expensive, causes measurable noise pollution, and will more likely than not end up sitting empty when the "AI" bubble pops and the debt that was financing all this construction comes due without the projected revenue that's supposed to ultimately pay for everything materializing.
2. We could more usefully employ more construction workers by expanding and upgrading our energy grids, reforming zoning laws to get more housing built, and replacing other ancient and dangerous infrastructure like lead pipes and rotting bridges.
3. When an "AI" data center actually gets built and filled with equipment and turned on, it immediately starts losing money. It also ultimately employs only a handful of people long-term. They are not in any way shape or form a sustainable job creator, especially if you take all the "AI" hype at face value and these systems ultimately replace human workers. It's just a death pact dressed up with the latest hype buzzwords.
Will - to quibble a bit: #3 - the losing starts before construction cuz it’s pretty much all borrowed money. On #2 - Biden tried that infrastructure stuff but most has been stopped by exec orders and the OBBB (Oligarchs & Billionaires Budget Boondoggle) so apparently “the people” don’t want that woke stuff
I recently read 138 in the state of Virginia, that's simply crazy, and I've read about the huge one in northern Louisiana, I think it is there.
'The trouble is—has been all along—that when it comes to Iran, Trump has no escape hatch. He can’t get out peacefully without giving Iran even more than he’s already been willing to offer, which would mean swallowing far more humiliations than even his adoring base would be willing to accept. And he can’t get out belligerently without ordering either mass war crimes on an unprecedented scale or a ground invasion—red lines even he seems unwilling to cross.
'All the bullshit and bluster aside, Trump knows he’s in real trouble here. Economically and politically, he’s running out of time.'
And Trump's biggest problem is the Iranians know it, too. I can't imagine they're in a mood to let him off the hook after he and Bibi liquidated the top tiers of their government, including the father of Iran's current leader. This is possibly the stupidest disaster in US presidential history, which shouldn't be too surprising, because we elected the stupidest president in US history. And we did it twice.
When I think about how totally fucked we are, it just leads me into spirals of undiluted misanthropy. Not towards my fellow Bulwarkers, but to the 77 million idiots who allowed this to happen. We are careening into global disasters like climate change and potentially AI, and we do not have four years to waste on electing the most corrupt idiot in US political history president again, and we don't have time to create out of thin air new global disasters like the Iran war, or trade wars against our allies. We need our allies now more than ever, and we need American global leadership now more than ever. We need a uniter on the global stage to lead in tackling global problems. And we chose this route instead. It's exasperating and infuriating.
"When I think about how totally fucked we are, it just leads me into spirals of undiluted misanthropy."
You and me both, Don.
That makes three of us. 😀
As to your growing misanthropy, you’re not alone. I laughed out loud yesterday at a meeting of my rosary society. It was a committee reviewing our recent pasta night fundraiser, and some ladies were remarking that while the table seating plan I created—instead of numbering tables, I gave them the names of Italian cities, set them up alphabetically, and gave each guest a handmade postcard with their city name—was too confusing for people and next year we need to just use numbers. I said I had hoped to do something interesting and didn’t understand why people didn’t understand what I did. One of our oldest members looked at me and said, “honestly? People are stupid”. All the ladies burst out laughing. I feel like when a senior lady at a church meeting is calling people stupid, it’s got to be the truth. People are just so incurious and mentally *lazy*. It is maddening, really
Jordan being the drive wheel to refer Jack Smith is pretty ironic, given that he was also one of the drive wheels of the January 6 coup plot. He was in the thick of it from election day to the morning of January 6, when he spoke with Trump for two hours by phone. Frankly, I was surprised that he was not indicted.
Has he responded to the subpoena yet that was issued by the Jan 6 committee? How many years ago was that now?
Andrew: "The trouble is—has been all along—that when it comes to Iran, Trump has no escape hatch. He can’t get out peacefully without giving Iran even more than he’s already been willing to offer, which would mean swallowing far more humiliations than even his adoring base would be willing to accept. And he can’t get out belligerently without ordering either mass war crimes on an unprecedented scale or a ground invasion—red lines even he seems unwilling to cross."
I was reading Nick Catoggio yesterday regarding the nuclear agreement Trump made with the Saudis, and Nick had a throwaway line from the recently departed Lindsey Graham in the front part of Nick's piece. Graham's on record saying that if he wanted Trump to do something, the best way to get him to do it is to tell Trump how Barack Obama would handle a given situation and then rely on Trump to do the exact opposite. It was Trump, after all, who tore up the JCPOA simply because he hates Obama. And I believe there are still people in Trump's orbit that are pushing for a ground invasion that know how to push his buttons. Is it a high probability? No. Is it higher than it should be? Yes.
I also read that line about Lyndsey Graham knowing how to manipulate Trump by talking about Obama. The amazing thing is that not only American politicians but leaders in foreign governments, including the Iranians, know how to manipulate Donald Trump. He is that transparent to everyone except, apparently, himself and his weird MAGA cult people.
The thing about Trump is he never shuts his yap and he never fails to tell everyone what he's thinking at any given moment. And because he's a narcissist in love with the sound of his own voice, he doesn't appreciate the value of *not* saying anything. Iran's leadership are evil barbarians, but they're also sophisticated operators. As David Frum said yesterday on the flagship pod yesterday with JVL, they want the world to know they've got Trump by the shorthairs and they're going to humiliate him over and over in plain sight.
Are you sure that Iranian leadership is more barbaric than we are? One of the myths about the ancient Persian wars was that the Greeks convinced themselves that they were superior and civilized and then turned into expansionist imperialists themselves?
How many people did Iran's leadership kill during the protests just prior to the war? The last I checked, it was something on the order of 10K. At the moment, the federal judiciary and blue state governors are stopping us from sliding into that territory. I do believe if it were totally up to Trump and guys like Stephen Miller, the federal government would be fucking up a lot of people. But we're not there. Yet.
I agree that they suck, but we do too. Seems to me we are becoming more like them by the day. When I think about the victims of ice I am reminded that Josef Stalin once remarked one death is a tragedy, but a million deaths is a statistic” They are preparing us to not only not care, but to actually revel in the future slaughter that keeps Stephen Miller drooling in delight.
Just like SoW Hegeseth's Department is totally Transparent ... until they aren't, e.g. the number of our Iran "Skirmish" wounded and dead.
Even Trump knows how manipulable he is. Yesterday I saw him sitting in front of the Oval Office fireplace, chuckling after the dignitary in the other chair complimented him, “See, he knows how to do it!”.
re: cheap shots - the politicians are adopting anti-AI data center rhetoric from the public, who are pissed. The data centers, once built, create few jobs, but lots of externalities that make life awful for folks living within earshot of the noise or downwind of the pollution, and the data centers drive up utility costs for electricity and water, for almost no local benefit.
And that's before we even get into AI being a lying, hallucinating, factually deficient, plagiarism machine that was designed to displace labor and fully deliver on the "you will own nothing and love it"future of a few tech broligarchs charging us rent for literally everything in our lives.
Politicians see us saying this, and say, hey, maybe people will vote for me if I vote to regulate or slow down or (don't tempt me with a good time) ban the pollution generating, utility cost increasing, plagiarism and labor displacement machines?
I read of one in either southern Oklahoma or TX where a nearby beef cattle rancher said no births for 2.5 years. * humming noise *
Kotzsu - …but then a kindly tech lobbyist taps them on the shoulder and shows them the Light of Corporate Generosity 🤬
As NYT reports, American military bases in ME are being attacked. So, his "skirmish" is broadening into a regional war, as the Red Sea lanes might be closed due to the Houthis as the Straits are closed by Iran. But it's okay, as DonnieFelon offered the grieving family a ride on Air Force One.
Brooks - skirmish is an upgrade from excursion so he appears to be noticing things getting worse
Pretty soon it will become a Special (Forces?) Military Operation in honor of Buddy Vlad.
As Trump endorses the idea that the Saudis should have nuclear enrichment capabilities that Iran must never, ever have, I begin to wonder whether we are a cat's paw in the dispute between Sunni and Shia Islam that's been going on since 632 AD.
So much for "America First", right?
Lost in all of the war discussion has been the steady drumbeat of nonsensical tariffs by Trump. In a time when the economy is already being squeezed it seems like a bad idea to make other things more expensive for no particularly good reason.
YES, my coffee
When MAGA people Like Colby are caught out, it is astonishing how meek they look! Also, it speaks to their utter ignorance of history. Canada became a country that embraced Empire Loyalists, many who came from the US. To suggest that their descendants would embrace the thinking of the US dominating Canada is farcical at best!
Jim Jordan versus Jack Smith: assistant coach Jordan has no reason to be embarrassed of his law degree from Capital University (Columbus OH) or of never practicing law (never passed bar exam because he never took one). He might, however, want to ask a qualified congressional staffer to advise him on the law he may have read about a quarter century ago before taking on a guy who litigated at The Hague
I suspect Trump is well aware of the idea that swing voters lock in by Labor Day, and I look forward to another memorandum of understanding by mid- to late August. To the staff at the Palace of Versailles, go ahead and pencil us in.
Or he will simply declare victory with his small accordion hands. And then invade Cuba in October.
Cuba or Greenland. Maybe both!
Hmmm...! Trump's version of a skirmish is "ridiculously ridiculous!" A skirmish does not expend a large part of the high-tech weapons in our inventory. How about a very damaging, high-tech war with no goals, no stategy, no planning and no definition of when we will reach our nonexistent goals.
Too long. Just call it a "Felon's Skrimish".
Sorry, but Data Centers helping construction jobs is like their one, and temporary, good feature. Immense use of water and electricity and it's polluting effects, and AI taking over more o,f our lives. For temporary construction jobs. Um, no
The first Cheap Shot today strikes me as a little cheap on the part of The Bulwark. Ignoring all the profound misgivings about AI to make a snarky point about political hypocrisy lacks seriousness.
Agreed. I had to re-read it to make sure I wasn't missing the point. I don't think I was.