I really appreciate Andrew's candid account of his own family. And I don't blame him for not laying the blame on his MAGA family members...after all, they're family.
But if we're being intellectually honest, you can't blame Trump while excusing his voters. Trump didn't become President (twice) in a vacuum. People voted for him. And to the extent that they were manipulated, on some level, they allowed the manipulation to happen. They're not innocent victims. They have free will, and they used it.
I can understand people voting for him in 2016, and to a certain extent also in 2020. But anyone who voted for him in 2024 knew exactly what they were getting, and that’s what they wanted. I mean, for crying out loud, the man gave a bj to a microphone in front of a crowd of thousands. By that time he had been exposed as a serial, incurable liar, con man, cheat, and misogynist. He cozied up publicly to white supremacists. He had been convicted on 34 felony counts of fraud. He had been found liable for what the court itself called rape. He led an armed insurrection against the United States of America.
So no, no quarter for anyone who voted for him in 2024 — they voted for him because he promised them he was going to make life miserable for any group they hated, and they cheered that. They were more excited about exacting revenge for their perceived victimhood than they were about any attempt to allow them to improve their lives. The fact that these despicable people have families does not excuse them.
I guess that's where I get hung up. They voted for hate, and I don't see how that isn't obvious. And when you plant seeds of hate, you get a hateful harvest. And here we are, as predictable as math. And nobody is going to say "I'm sorry I voted against Americans." So where do we go from here?
It was pretty obvious to anyone that cared to listen - no critical thinking skills required. Trump always told everyone who he was. "When a man tells you who he is, believe him".
Maybe the first time they voted for him, it was funny. By the third time, it was a conscious choice to embrace evil.
But did they vote for Trump all three times or two out of three? Are the MAGA?
It does make a difference. Most MAGA are hopeless. True believers. It's the other voters who took a chance again for whatever reason who can be turned.
I blame the mainstream legacy media to a great degree. Despite his own words, despite those of former members of the first admin who warned that this time there would be no guardrails, the voters who went for Trump refused to believe. "Oh, it's all bluster, just Trump being Trump. It'll be just like the first four years, and we survived that, right?" That was the thinking for so many non MAGA voters who put him over the top. Instead of educating themselves, they just go with their gut and what they "believe." And their beliefs are reinforced by a media that has done nothing but sanewash him over the past decade and continues to do so. The abysmal pieces in the NYT about whether he was "breaking norms" just reminded me how bad their political reporting is. (As if I need reminding.)
I agree with you about blaming the legacy media. In 2016, Trump manipulated them into giving him billions of dollars worth of free, uncritical coverage. In 2024, CNN, The NY Times, Washington Post, CBS, ABC and a host of others were clearly in the tank for him.
Regret as in, they are unhappy Trump supporters or have actively turned against him? Because I’m betting they are still the same shitty people, they are just mad at Trump, but they’d vote for him again.
If they feel that way now, it's because their Messiah has in some way come to bite them on their personal ass. I welcome all into the tent but forgiveness will take a long, long time.
I have too. A nurse in my family who works for the VA was a trump voter. Once 2025 began and Doge became a reality, she regretted her vote and admitted it. Seeing people lose their jobs for no real reason upset her, because it effected HER friends, her job. That is why the veil was lifted for her. I think for most it has to be personal.
I once had very interesting neighbors who managed to accidently set their house afire on three (!) different occasions, the last time with pretty significant but repairable damage. Nice people with some quirky behaviors and a strange inability to anticipate that a plan might go awry.
Should I have waited for the flames to spread to MY house before thinking them dangerous idiots responsible for their own pain? During the third fire I was the neighbor who linked together four garden hoses so I could hit their roof from my water supply. Thereafter, I just kept a hose and sprinkler connected to each bib at my house so I could rapidly deploy four defensive streams. Strike four would have to be their problem.
Your points are certainly good ones.... I wrack my brain daily trying to understand how family members who seem so kind and decent generally could have voted for this man. The only possible answer I can come up with is, they are literally living in a bubble. I have a cousin I love who never watches or reads ANY news... just listens to podcasts. She believes every word Trump and RFK, Jr. say. I'm betting these family members have never even heard of or seen a lot of the things Trump has done, and have swallowed every lie about migrants and immigrants. If you see much at all of Fox News (as I have to, whenever I'm taking care of my Dad) you'll come away feeling a certain measure of despair about how everything has been so twisted. Case in point: a panel of commentators on Fox talking about how it would make sense for Trump to enact the Insurrection Act because of all these governors who are defying Federal Law. And also the constant discussions about all these Democrats who are creating false stats about crime and are willing to let dangerous people out of jail and don't care about crime victims... ad nauseam. Anyway, it does seem that anyone who is totally immersed in the right-wing media-sphere is going to think the same things about Democrats that we think about MAGA R's. To me, that is what is so scary about our situation.
Here’s the thing though, and I also struggle with this knowing a few Trump (2024) voters. Whether they’ve siloed themselves in a media bubble or they actually approve of Trump’s actions, they’ve shown themselves to be unreliable and untrustworthy. Possibly dangerous, because I cannot count on them to make good decisions.
I told my father that I will never forgive him for being a Maga Republican and voting for this mess. Truly, 2016 was very revealing for me, it showed me who my father really is and it was hard to acknowledge, but I accept it now. I could talk til I am blue in the face and he would not change his vote.
I also told him that his grandson actually saw him vote (he was babysitting him on 2024 election day) for trump, and he did look embarrassed that my son saw (he was 11 years old then). I told him he should be ashamed, history is not going to be kind to those that supported trump or maga. I happened to campaign for Harris in my local neighborhood, my son with me, as he's watched the debate and been to the No King's Day protests with me.
And my father has shown us who he is with that 2024 vote.
He did not care that this cruel billionaire was aimed at destroying the country we love. That it would be his grandson who will be affected the most by the big, stupid bill, and the take-down of any genuine oversight in our government. He knew trump was corrupt and also a terrible person, yet he voted for him anyway. What excuse could he offer me that explains it? None. His concern was only for himself, who at 85, should be looking out for and thinking about the youngest member of the whole family and their future.
My thinking, FWIW. People are generally okay as individuals but are capable of anything when they join a mob. Trump has succeeded in creating a permanent mob.
That's it, I think. It's pretty easy to be completely immersed in the MAGA info-and anger-tainment bubble. It's also expensive, so they consume a lot of it, getting what they paid for.
In the U.S. Election of 2024, I blame mostly the people who had voted in 2020, but didn’t vote at all in 2024… (I’m Canadian, and we don’t have “mandatory voting” here either… but Australia has it, though it’s just a small fine for Not Voting… I believe that sometimes the littlest kick dill get folks of the couch!)
But, I also understand the folks who didn’t vote in 2024: Some just thought, “Well, I thought he was crazy in 2016, I voted against him twice, and he still did not Go Away, and Congress would not Remove Him as an option, when they had the chance!”, & the only alternative is this dull-speaking California woman with her hyper feminist fans… “there’s no point in voting at all!!”
Also, Trump won by Electoral College (which warped actual Democracy away from the Vote) after winning a slim plurality, not majority, of voters’ votes.
Well, failure to vote was definitely a factor. But there was also a strong “We already had us a Black guy, and we ain’t’ gonna have us no damn fee-male, especially a Black one” factor. The misogyny part is almost certainly what lost her a significant part of the Latino and Black male vote. Harris made mistakes, to be sure, and she was not the ideal candidate, but I take strong issue with your characterization of “hyper-feminist” fans. That was absolutely not the case for why she came so close to beating the 🍊💩. And with all her flaws and her raw deal from Biden, I cannot believe any rational human would consider 🍊💩 to have been a better choice, it just defies logic.
Well, I do agree that “it defies logic”, but I’ve sadly come to believe that most people make most decisions, with appeal only to the “vibes” in their head, and none at all to the remnants of “logic” that live there. Like, for Trump voters, “the very convincing tone*” that he used, speaking about the windfalls of “Tariffs”, or the evils of Trade Deficits with Ally-Nations,or high grocery-prices. He hasn’t a logical-plan, in his head… But, democrats needed to do something different than just calmly say “That’s not truth, what he’s saying isn’t true.” They needed to “convince” voters of the truth.
And, they kept pointing a fan at a waterfall, in that regard.
(*Putin, having observed the trick Trump plays on voters, plays the same one on him; what Trump calls Putin’s “very strong statements”, lies about his war.)
"But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
IMHO you can't just say something like this without explaining it. Let's leave aside the negative connotations of schadenfreude (i.e. the opposite of grace) and just call it something like blaming those who voted for Trump. Why are those Trump voters not to blame? Did they have no agency? Are people not responsible for their voting choices and the causes/people they support financially? Do people not bear at least minimal responsibility to try to sort truth from fiction? Are people not responsible for making basic human judgments about the trustworthiness and competence of individuals who want to lead them?
If you want to say that those good people don't deserve EVERYTHING that is happening to them, that they could not have anticipated the range and depth of Trump's evil policies, ok, I suppose one can make that argument with a straight face. But saying that they bear NO responsibility for what is happening to them? That seems to me to be absurd on its face and at the very least you owe your readers an explanation/analysis for that assertion.
Andrew's grandmother was conned. Was she conned because she really wanted that $2000 check, the easiest way to con people? I don't think so. She was conned for the same reason she doesn't read Andrew's writing. She has been taught and trained over decades to reject evidence that the oligarchs don't care about her and just want her money.
What does it say that Andrew’s own grandmother doesn’t believe what Andrew says about Trump? These people are beyond saving and not worth the time and effort. Folks that set aside their morals and ethics for family are why we are in the fucking place. Stop giving family a pass. Stop taking away their agency. They voted for this and we are still showing up to help them? No! Boot straps granny. Boot straps.
I don't know what showing up to help them means. Scams like the one Andrew described are supposed to be illegal, but I guess we don't think Republican officials are subject to the law anymore.
Because we’ve seen Republicans are not bound by laws. Do we think that Trump is going to go after his own? No! Besides, this is what Andrew’s granny wanted. She gave Trump $10 despite all of what he represents. Those getting fleeced DESERVE this. MAGA voters deserve to lose it all because they decided their desire to be bigots and racists mattered the most.
Kate - it's plausible to me that the "fund raiser" who fleeced gramma did put some disclaimer in the email or website where the money was gullibly signed over (at the bottom, in 4 pt. pale gray font). Andrew was able to see "this wasn’t some fake group pretending to be a GOP politician’s PAC, after all, but the real thing." I'd expect the dramatic pitch is designed to comply just inside the knife's edge of any fraud laws. The unfortunate reality is that such laws are passed by politicians and so, designed to permit "artistic license" in exaggeration or hyperbole - cuz these are the very people who plan to benefit themselves via such appeals for $$$ to fight socialism or authoritarianism... depending which list you're on..
I'm disgusted by _some_ of the "blue" appeals with which I've been bombarded over the past couple years. Wild rhetoric designed to inflame ire.
Gullibility greatly exceeds reflection in our population. If Willie Sutton were still around, he'd tell us where the money is 😉
Trump succeeds and thrives on hatred and division, be careful that you do not fall into his trap of making "others" unworthy of our love and care. We are all guilty of making wrong and unwise decisions, I don't believe that casting Trump voters aside as not worth our "time and effort" is fair or just. I, for one, do not want to be like Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, or JD Vance as they excoriate Democrats and portray them as deserving of their collective hatred. Love, compassion, and understanding should be extended to all people, regardless of their political views. It is, frankly, the only thing that will eventually win some of them over. Scorn and disgust, the easier path to take, will surely have the opposite effect.
It’s called holding them accountable. If that means letting them suffer consequences then so be it. They made choices and are saying they would make them again if they could go back. I have yet to hear anyone from MAGA saying they would have voted Kamala. I have yet to hear one of them say they are against Trump. At best, they just say they shouldn’t have voted. These are not children, despite their mental abilities. They are adults with agency who decided to elect a rapist pedophile conman after 10 years of evidence showing who he is. I will not let bygones be bygones or turn the other cheek as long as they continue to be a threat.
Trump is a symptom, not a disease. Trump and Trumpism are the predictable outcome of the GOP as a whole letting racists/xenophobes, misogynists, and conspiracy cooks into their party without denouncing any of those ideas for the better part of 50 years. From Reagan until present, the GOP brought the Limbaugh fans, the Buchanan fans, and the Alex Jones fans into their movement and never said a bad word about any of those "thought leaders" (I hesitate to call them that). Welp, when you usher the folks with these beliefs into your party they eventually become a block, and often that block becomes a core on a long enough timeline. We're at the part where they've become the core, and it's because republicans for the last 50 years have refused to denounce the radical views of their voters. They grew the alligator in the bathtub, and now it's grown big enough to eat their movement. I cannot stress enough how predictable this all was, and how much of the blame lays at the feet of old school conservatives who welcomed this kind of thing into their party and didn't say a peep about it. "No enemies to the right" is not a new thing, it's been happening for 50 years now and Trumpism is the end result.
I like his framing (paraphrasing) "I will not be pressured into presenting purity tests onto voters" when asked to take on the groypers, etc. I can't imagine a dem politician ever responding like that when asked to confront the antisemitic elements within their party.
Republicans, republicans, republicans... what I find so exacerbating is that Trump has no REPUBLICAN or DEMOCRATIC ideals. He is an island of evil and petulance surrounded by what he judged as the most acquiescent of the two parties that would be willing to give him what he wanted - to rule the world and take pleasure out of making leaders of industry, education, politics, and religion bow down to him and grovel at his feet while he unlawfully rules the nations like a child playing games that he must win at all costs. How he, one man, has succeeded in surrounding himself with the trappings of kingship, when his popularity is at an all-time low, when most of the world (including most Republicans) hate and revile him, I am at a loss to understand.
I agree with your timeline. 41 years ago as I was being driven to the hospital to deliver my second child, the car radio news was celebrating the birthday of Ronald Reagan. I was aghast to realize my baby would share a birthday with that sunny-faced evil destructionist.
I would bring back Sarah’s Republican triangle of doom. The voters, the politicians and the entertainment winged of the media echo system are bringing everyone down.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If we win the midterms in 2026 and the presidency in 2028, it will be because some folks who voted for Trump will vote Dem. Others will stay home. There are many Trump voters who are truly evil people, but others are deluded, misguided, or misinformed.
I admit that "With malice toward none and charity for all" didn't work out so well, but I'm not sure vengeance would have worked out better
To be clear, I'm not calling for vengeance. But I'm also not one to blame a cult leader while excusing their followers. People who buy snake oil, by and large, are already in the market for snake oil. They're just waiting for someone to come sell it to them.
If you're talking about immersive cults, the lions share of blame does indeed lie with the leaders. The followers are emotionally damaged and vulnerable. What they are in the market for are basic human needs, including, ironically enough, a sense of agency. 'I have to do something dramatic to turn my life around!'
In short, these people mostly need therapy, and they are being exploited for somebody's power trip or profiteering.
There's a short classic video documentary called Lord of the Universe that's very revealing of cult dynamics. It's also entertaining as hell. Highest recommendation.
It treats the marks with incredulity leavened with sympathy. Chicago 7 defended Rennie Davis had fallen into this cult, and the film-makers solicited some great commentary from the then-underground Abbie Hoffman.
Anyway, 'cults of personality' while not immersive have some of the same dynamics. They're a way of filling empty places inside. Since people don't sign over their whole lives to them -- they're literally part-time -- we may find more contradiction between culty expression and who they still are in other contexts, and imagine the self-delusion is somehow less excusable.
The problem is imagining that any of us have a single consistent nature, a unified subjectivity, leaving us subject to some blanket moral judgement. We can't totally excuse the followers, or totally blame them either. The leaders, OTOH, are so dominated by cruel and greedy facets of subjectivity, that IMO vengeance is warranted.
I agree with you and came here to write this exact thing. Andrew’s family and friends have zero excuse. They had a great resource in Andrew who they all chose not to listen to.
They did in fact vote for exactly what is happening to them now. The really difficult part is that the consequences of their vote are also impacting the rest of us.
I’ll save my sympathy for those who didn’t vote for all of this and are truly being hurt by it.
Lack of empathy, lack of sympathy, constant anger.... these are characteristics of Trump's malevolent personality. We must be careful to not become what we are fighting so hard to change. The only thing that will win this war is to be our better selves and repudiate Trump's worst instincts. We must fight hard and strategically, and hit back with the same energy.... but not with the same spiteful tactics used by the enemy.
Popov's paradox of tolerance does a very good job of rejecting the idea that a tolerant society can or should be tolerant of intolerance, and indeed well articulates that the one thing a tolerant society cannot afford to be is tolerant of the intolerant, because it describes exactly the fall from grace that America has demonstrated.
and what we really need in the next few years is 60 votes in the senate. If we want something like a set of Trump acts to make the worst parts of the Trumpist authoritarian project illegal (like giving the insurrection clause of the 14th amendment teeth or reigning in the president's use of emergency powers), then the Dem's need to win senate seats in places like Iowa.
This is a key point that tends to be brushed aside by pro-democracy advocates who feel the need to point fingers. What's more important: Winning enough elections to reform American governing institutions or feeling morally superior?
We don’t need 60 senators; we need 50 committed senators and the presidency and then eliminate the filibuster, which gives minority control. Make DC a state, pass abortion rights, pass voting rights, ban gerrymandering, add 4 Supreme Court justices, make a Democrat the head of the FBI, and stop the bipartisan nonsense.
At this point most of DHS should be abolished and rebuilt piecemeal and siloed as they should have remained, but thats beside the point that one of the things we also really need to do is simply break up the United States into a bunch of smaller countries that are dominated by the control of their economic centers, so that we can once and for all devalue the untrustworthy rural populations representation.
What we really need is to stop pretending we can vote our way out of a situation that we didn't vote our way into. We've allowed the rise of a fascist dictator in control of the government who has ignored the rule of law in an endless series of victories colored by defeats in the courts, which it should be noted have neither stopped nor slowed our descent into fascism.
Any belief in the strength of the system to extricate us ignores the fact that the System is being wholly controlled by the fascist in question.
I’m waiting for the articles advising Trump supporters to “understand” the other side. I’ve lost count of the number of articles I’ve encountered over the years, imploring that I should try to understand MAGAs. I understand them, I truly do. Most of the ones I know are as mean spirited as Trump himself.
Yep. I see exactly what those who call themselves Republicans really are. It’s really simple. They are racist bigots who at best want to protect pedophiles and at worst are pedophiles themselves. This is who they are. It is who they have always been.
Pedophilia also plays a huge role in my recent awareness of a movement called “deconstruction” by young women who were raised within very dominating religious communities. (I think that’s what deconstruction is; I need to look it up more deeply than YouTube videos.). Those communities denounce female sexuality, while making use of it with girls too young to resist. It’s hypocrisy on a despicable scale, and shared by MAGA ideology.
I think it can help to more carefully define what we are talking about. Pollsters would suggest that there is not one shade of Trump supporter. For example, swing voters rather than hard-core MAGA types made the crucial difference in the 2024 presidential election. What's wrong with trying to better understand why they went with Trump?
I guess it comes down to what you're trying to do. If you want to win elections -- particularly as the electoral map gets more difficult after the next census -- then doesn't it make sense to better understand the potentially persuadable portion of the electorate?
I see your point, I think. As a practical matter, like winning elections, then the effort makes sense. On a personal level I don’t even mind except that it’s assumed to be a one-way requirement, as if they are babies. Which isn’t far off, now that I think of it . . .
Absolutely and unequivocally true. Responsibility is not binary. That Trump takes a share of the blame is obvious. But that those who cast ballots for him also take a share of the blame is equally obvious--if only by virtue of the plain fact that tens of millions were not so beguiled, and that is very, very hard to conjure any unambiguously kind, generous, or thoughtful motive for pulling the lever for him. His appeals always come back to fear, anger, jaundice, vengeance, or bias. Yielding to those appeals is absolutely NOT innocent--literally, that is, "without guilt."
Remember, the changes in laws allowing the consolidation of media has a lot to do with this. RW billionaires bought up local television, radio, and newspapers in small markets, or the chains that supply them with info. Suddenly they went from balanced reporting and news to one sided lies and propaganda that is then reinforced by their pastors in the pulpit, especially if they are conservative or evangelical Christian. And it's been going on for forty years. It's been drilled into them that Dems are evil and the GOP are the salt of the American earth standing for traditional values. Which makes it hard for Dems to break through in all those red spaces, especially in the South and Midwest.
I have a brother who voted for Trump. I cannot understand why. My brother is extremely smart and well-read. And yet, here we are. All that my other brother and I can come up with is that he, like our mother, is a black and white thinker. But that does not completely explain what he sees in this guy.
Black and white thinking is a trait of toddlers. I believe that the crux of the issue; we have a large segment of the population in “arrested development”, caused by so many factors; social media, dumbed-down education, entertainment addiction. It’s depressing because it doesn’t offer much hope for a future correction. Not when big money is behind the oppression of the mind.
I guess the best medicine in your situation is knowing you are not alone. I read about your situation so often, I’m wondering if I’m an outlier, by not being faced with this. It feeds my curiosity why people with similar backgrounds can end up so different.
It must be psychologically exhausting, dealing with the push/pull of dramatically conflicting values with a loved one. Families are rarely easy, but MAGA has introduced a whole new line of division; as if that was needed! I wonder if he shares your pain at the situation. That’s a rarely examined angle.
Oh, we have had words many times. He and my SIL were outraged a few days ago when I told them that Trump is getting senile. They watch Fox, which doesn’t show that he is getting ga-ga.
Let's look at them like addicts who need to shed their victim complex and make amends for what they have created. Until then they are nothing but dry drunks.
So? Unless their immediate family, why should you not treat them as you would an ex-friend who has sold their soul to the devil? What’s so special about a blood connection?
Andrew offered us an intimate glimpse into Trump voters he's known and loved his whole life. I would not expect him to come back from the holidays and publicly trash them. But he went further than not trashing them...he tried to exonerate them. And that's where I disagreed with him.
Yup! Those ADULTS chose this Andrew. Boomers and Gen X chose this for America. They chose this for their children. The two generations who benefited the most from the American order pulled up the ladder and told the rest of us to get fucked. I will enjoy the schadenfreude and will make no apologies for doing so. May the voters have the day they voted for. That includes my own MAGA father.
Oh, c'mon, Jeff. A lot of young men, of all races, crossed over to vote for Trump last time. He couldn't have won without them. And where are all the young people at the protests? Generation bashing goes both ways. Don't think like a bot.
Still at it. And now upset about the last 50 years to boot. Someday some aggrieved youngster will be railing at you too, if you're lucky. Let's stop with the generational stereotyping. As I said, it goes both ways.
Thank you for mentioning the lack of young people at the protests. Some of Trumps most solid support is among young men. Perhaps Jeff should be looking at his friends, not his parents.
Well, when Boomers and Xers acknowledge their choices that led us here, I'll do that. Until then my point remains that the two generations that have been in power for the last 50 years have led us here, and it ain't millennials and Gen Z.
I didn’t vote for Reagan, Bush or Trump, nor did any of my friends , so I think you ought to reconsider when you blame an entire generation for all the world’s problems.
As a Jew, I don’t have to contend with Trump supporters in my family, I’m stuck with Netanyahu supporters. In my eyes, they are guilty of knowingly supporting hate and genocide. I cannot extend them any grace because we’re related, in fact I feel the opposite. I’m ashamed that people who were raised alongside me could feel this way and I question the sincerity of their supposed commitment to pluralism and other liberal values with which we were raised. And after listening to them on Thanksgiving I didn’t bother showing up for Hanukkah.
And they used their free will not once, but TWICE to vote for an openly racist, misogynistic, mean spirited traitor. We all know the aphorism; “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me”.
Excellent point! I almost always forget about the election he lost, which is remarkable, given how traumatic January 6 was. Those voters are still accountable.
I’m sick of them all. I’m tired of fighting with one hand behind my back to keep peace. I find myself insisting on a “no politics” rule to keep me from tearing somebody a new one.
I was struck by Andrew’s piece. Not just the anecdotes about his relatives, but also the part where he mentions that he doesn’t understand the Strum and Drang this causes in other families. My friend, you’re a heterosexual white male. Of course it isn’t going to cause a lot of angst for you. This isn’t about identity politics, it’s the simple fact that the vast majority of Trump’s culture war battles will not affect you in a meaningful way. The reason why it causes strife in so many other families is that victims of such policies have to deal with advocates of the administration boasting in their faces.
Yeah, it's a bit different when you're part of the other half of the country that has lost significant control over medical decisions and bodily autonomy, and then you go to Christmas and have to deal with the relatives being anti-vaccine or anti-pasteurization because **they** need to control what goes into **their** bodies, while at the same time opposing half of standard medical practice for pregnant women.
Sure, straight white males are not at the top of the target list, but suggesting they are unaffected by the nightmare we're currently experiencing kind of assumes they're all unfeeling psychopaths. As Andrew points out, even Trump-supporting old white dudes can be worried about their sons and nephews being radicalized by Nick Fuentes. Andrew makes it clear that he's not keeping silent for the sake of peace but actually talking to his family about his work and views. I think the fact that the uncle brings his concern about Fuentes to Andrew is evidence that there's some real dialogue happening. If we want to cast it in terms of white male privilege, I'd say he's using his privilege for good.
100% agree. Also scares the hell out of me that they discuss their nephew being radicalized with all the detachment of watching a Netflix documentary. Then throw up their hands like ‘I dunno what to do about it’ like it was innocuous as getting a piercing he didn’t like or suddenly being into making craft beer.
THIS. I cannot deal with the moral relativism in treating pro-fascism, misogyny, bigotry, etc. as “just another lifestyle choice”. I broke ties with a friend from college who didn’t vote for Trump in 2024, but also didn’t vote for Harris, whom he called a “vapid pantsuit lady”. He was preening himself for his good judgement in not voting at all when I said that you find Harris to be equivalent to a grifting, lying, convicted felon shows me you no longer have any moral spine.
Both. For way too many men, women's parts should not be in pants (let alone having a post-high-school education, working, being a President, etc.). They should stay at home and make sandwiches.
I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that waving away the conversations Andrew describes as irrelevant because he's in a somewhat protected demographic seems unfair. We're all in this together. Fascism comes for everyone eventually. Andrew gets that. He's obviously trying to help his family understand it, if only by staying in relationship with them and being honest about where he stands.
Fascism does come for everyone. These people were repeatedly warned and chose it anyway. Now, I’m supposed to throw my arms open and accept them before they have even shown contrition? No, I don’t think so.
No one has to do anything they don't want to do. I'd sure never ask a vulnerable person to make nice with relatives who condemn their very being. I wouldn't ask anybody to tolerate hateful bullshit. I certainly won't put up with it, nor will I tolerate it in my presence. If being with MAGA family is unbearable, then it's right and good to stay far away.
On the other hand, if I — a relatively privileged white woman who knows the MAGA demographic well — can engage with people and create some space for them to consider another perspective, why would I not do that? This idea that somebody needs to do a dance of contrition before I can deign to talk to them feels weirdly controlling to me. If their eyes are eventually opened in such a way that they feel regret, I'm glad for them, but their conscience is their business. I'm just trying to stay human.
It’s not asking for a dance for them to admit they were wrong. What you choose to do with the MAGA folks in your life is obviously your business, but this isn’t about talking to them. This is about sympathizing with them when the consequences of their actions come back to bite them in the ass. This is about who gets our grace and our acceptance. I’m more than willing to show grace and accept people who admit fault. Those who would go back and make the same decision in 2024 deserve neither from me. Lastly, acknowledging that straight white men are the least affected group and therefore he doesn’t see a great deal of strife isn’t ignoring that they are affected. It’s stating the fact that they are LEAST affected.
Maria, I got goosebumps reading THAT…. At 89, and a young kid growing up in a housing project in Bayveiw Terrrace, CA (San Diego) and my Dad helping to design and make airplanes in one of the aircraft companies (1941-1949) and then moving to Ft. Worth, TX.. knowing NOTHING about ‘Jim Crow’, segregated schools, back of the bus…. And a very active LIBERAL mother (originally from Moosejaw, Sask., Canada) Voter for Harry Truman… I was reasonably aware… and then, quite shocked with Texas…. It was NOT outa the movies…. And I was a 13yr old wondering????
So, we are, and have been, and I hope, will continue to do ‘our own due diligence’ in whatever way we are able…..
Maria, unless I am missing something, I can't find where Andrew states that he tells them they are being taken advantage of. He wanted to tell his Grandma she wasn't being scammed, but he doesn't write what he did tell her.
In the case of the Uncle he doesn't state what they "discussed".
I nthink Andrewq is a good egg, but assigning acts to him that aren't in evidence.....
This, imo, is why we are we are, becasue people couldn't be really honest when it mattered.
I can see why Andrew didn't go into detail about the conversations — there's only so much space in the newsletter — but there's nothing in what he wrote that suggests he was less than honest with anyone. He notes that it's actually kind of hard to say whether his grandmother was scammed, strictly speaking, and he writes that he didn't quite know what to say to his uncle. I wouldn't either. I don't think anyone knows the answer to how to defeat these radicalizing influences.
I have to say that I feel like people have generally been pretty honest with their MAGA relatives over the past 10+ years. It's a big reason why so many families have ruptured. And I don't think those ruptures are necessarily bad. Often they are for the best. Some MAGA folks in my life, including some extended family, have cut ties with me over my lefty, anti-Trump politics. I'm fine with it. But if I can stay in relationship with someone and maintain my own beliefs and boundaries, I feel like it's better to do that than not. Anger and alienation are fascism's fuel. I don't want to feed that beast.
‘But if I can stay in relationship with someone and maintain my own beliefs and boundaries , I feel like it’s better to do that than not. Anger and alienation are fascism’s fuel. I don’t want to feed that beast.”
I have copied that to have and read when I am floundering…. And then I move on… Thank YOU!
That’s one big reason. Another is that many of us had it drilled into us as kids “if you just sit there letting other people say that kind of thing, then you’re no better than they are.”
Yeah imagine going $300,000 in debt to pay for medical education, going into public health, hearing family after family reject vaccines for their vulnerable kids, and constantly hearing that I'm not doing my job to prop up the Caucasian birth rate by both a branch of the "infotainment" media, but also the sitting VP.
My life choices are diametrically opposed to what MAGA values. Sure, I can go make small talk for a few hours...but what kind of real relationship can I have with people who think are opposed to education, opposed to public health, opposed to vaccines, opposed to me having a marriage where I'm in equal footing with a partner, think my job is "caring for illegals and parasites" and criticize my financial situation (solid middle class house, beater car, net worth still very much negative). Sorry for the rant, but I just can't relate to most of my relations.
- The vast majority are nominally Christian so they don’t care if other religions are discriminated against.
- The vast majority are straight, so they don’t care if the LGBTQ+ community is discriminated against.
- The vast majority are citizens or legal immigrants, so they don’t care if illegals are expelled, even if they have been here for decades or were brought here as children.
The common thread in the above is that half of Americans are apparently selfish and don’t care about anyone other than themselves, their families, and their friends.
I’m a heterosexual white male, and it does cause strife in my family—indeed, it has caused strife from advocates of the administration boasting in my face.
One lovely relative crowed that I would be “fired” after Trump became my boss, way back in 2016. Needless to say, we haven’t spoken since.
I think Andrew avoids the strife because of the nature of his relationship with most of his family—Though he works for a “liberal” publication, they choose not to take that personally, and he reciprocates.
Even in my family, it varies from relative to relative. My uncle, a Republican last I checked, simply chooses to be philosophical about his Trumpism and its conflict with others in our family.
My stepdad, by contrast—whose first political conversation to me revolved around the notion that “Obama hates white people”—does not. 😕
Among much!, the feeling of actually having a ‘conversation’! With ‘US’ readers!!! Weird and wonderful! And the feeling that ‘we’ ARE! And…. however hard with members of family, ‘blood and chosen’. That you did and we do….
Andrew: "But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result."
Andrew's a far kinder man than me. Which, on some days, isn't hard to be. I've recently come to a horrifying realization: I want Trump exactly where he is for the next three years. Why? Because in my view, it is necessary for the people who voted for him to experience the full consequences of their choice. I would argue many of these voters made a corrupt bargain with Trump: they would overlook the moral turpitude, rank corruption and the authoritarianism in exchange for a "better economy". These voters willingly ignored Trump's 50+ year history of screwing people over when making that bargain, and in doing so brought shame and reputational damage to the United States that'll linger long over Trump shuffles off his mortal coil.
So, yes, "good people" will suffer over the next three years. But at the end of the day, people are responsible for their decisions, and the difference between me and the median MAGA is I understand that every decision has intended and unintended consequences. It is time, far past time, that the great and good American people learn this lesson the hard way. The worse, the better. No impeachment. No Twenty Fifth Amendment. None of that. I want uncut, pure, ultra-high octane Trump for the next three years. Give the voters what they voted for, cranked to 150 dB. And maybe, **just maybe**, the people who voted for him will realize that giving a narcissistic sociopath the nuclear codes isn't a great idea.
Tim, I think you may be a kinder person than I am. I still suspect that the people who say it’s all about the economy may mean it, but even though it isn’t nice to say they have longed for liberal tears. People who aren’t very nice suspect that nobody else is either. What I long to see is shame more than pain.
They won't learn. They'll try to learn, but their churches and other moral leaders will pull them back into the abyss. FOX will tell them exactly what to say. They are no longer citizens, they are consumers. As long as they can consume free content all day, they'll go along to get along.
You are asking a lot. Fear was a big factor in Felon Trump’s rise. Right wing-nut media was alive and well long before he came along. Can’t tell how many articles I read articulated fear above everything. Charles Krauthammer wrote an article advising middle class people to beware that the lower classes were coming for them and what they have. Kinda forgot that it was the upper class manipulating them. If scaring the voters got us into this mess, will scaring them further get us out? I just read an article that predicts the MAGA element of the GOP to emerge stronger without Trump. Just what we need, The Tea Party on steroids. Don’t want to sugarcoat what the voters did. Just don’t know what solution will work. That’s what people should be debating; what will work. The one thing anybody should take from “The Scarlet Letter”, is that what the town did to Hester Pryme didn’t work.
I have instincts in your direction; let them have it good and hard. But the suffering could possibly be world-ending. The door to slowing the impending climate disaster just closed in November 2024. Nuclear annihilation feels closer than when I was under my desk in third grade. This Trumpian turn is about much more than a devastating economy. It feels cataclysmic to me. To the MAGAs, it’s The Rapture. We get no choice in their religious cruise to Heaven.
Tim, any thoughts on what will be left after four years of unadulterated MAGA? I likely won’t be around, but I dread the kakistocracy left for my children and grandchildren. I have no solution but do have an immense sadness for the consequence.
Randall, I can only tell you what I believe will happen, and I could very well be wrong.
My view is the *short term best case scenario* is enough disgruntled voters pull the lever for Democrats in next year's midterm elections. If there's anything we've learned over the past ten years, it's the electorate is fickle and has no long term memory. I believe by June 2026 the economy will be in the crapper, crippled by tariffs and Trump's incoherent policies which will lead to higher inflation and higher unemployment. The GDP number released last week should not be trusted. If growth was that robust, then why is Trump so adamant about lowering interest rates?
Historically, the president's party gets punished in the midterms. Between now and then, I believe the GOP is going to tear itself apart. We're already seeing signs of that. And we're seeing signs of Trump's physical and mental deterioration. Coupled with an administration that is largely incompetent (save for guys like Russ Vought), we may buy ourselves a grace period from the overall fuckery and insanity for a couple of years with (hopefully) House Democrats using presently sclerotic Article I powers to push back on a rogue Executive Branch.
Long term, though, I think we're fucked, and that's because I don't trust many of our fellow citizens. The way I see it, if 1M+ deaths from COVID doesn't qualify as a big national security failure for 77M people, or an attempted insurrection isn't considered disqualifying, then that tells me the values and the soul of a plurality of the electorate is rotten. More to the point, our erstwhile allies know this, which is why they will no longer trust us to be what we were prior to the Trump era. They rightfully don't trust us, and as one foreign official noted, they can't make national security plans based on how Wisconsin votes every four years.
We don't have a Trump problem. We have a voter problem. Personally, Randall, I don't believe I have an obligation to care about the welfare of the 77M people who voted for this madness. I'm sure Andrew's family are nice people, but at the end of the day, they are responsible for their choices, just like me and you are responsible for ours. Anyone who has been paying attention for the past ten years understands Trump, but paying attention is a choice. So is not paying attention. Every decision has intended and unintended consequences. It's time for people to get that through their thick skulls.
It may be odd to say, but you appear to be more optimistic than I. Implicit in your bleak prediction is the hope that misery, chaos, and devastation will get something through the "thick skulls" of people who voted for Trump**. People seem to have lost the capacity to understand cause and effect. They can perceive effect, but there is always some fantasist to tell them a story that links effect to some purported cause that coincidentally supports their prejudices. I don't see any way out, because we have surrendered thinking to billionaires and their bots.
Remember my take is what I consider a best-case scenario. I think 2026 will be fraught with peril. I think more children will die from measles next year thanks to RFK Jr.. I think more Americans will be rounded up by ICE and throw into gulags without due process. And that's just for starters, Randall. The only reason these things will happen is because 77 million people, whether they want to admit it or not, voted for this. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe enough of the MAGAe -- not a huge number but enough to sway an election -- will finally see the light. But the damage has already been done, IMO, and one of the things we'll have to reckon with is how to punish the people who brought us to this moment.
I'm sorry Andrew, I vehemently disagree. Every person who voted for and continued to support Trump, despite years and years of evidence of his moral depravity, bears responsibility for what has happened to America. They all had a choice. And they chose to embrace cruelty, racism, and greed at every turn. No one with a shred of character or integrity could support Trump (especially post January 6.) But here we are. And now they will reap what they have sewn.
I am here for everything Andrew said and all the comments in response. Including the critical ones.
This is probably the most personally salient topic for me of everything the bulwark covers. (Which obviously reflects my privilege.)
It is just really hard for me to keep my mouth shut around people who endorsed this. I want them to feel all the shame and embarrassment that I believe is warranted. I want them to know that I’m really struggling to let any of it go.
I’m tempted to tell them that I might never respect them the same again. That we don’t share nearly as many values as I thought. Or that their moral compasses are so fundamentally broken that I can barely comprehend it. Or perhaps all of these things.
So I really vacillate between (1) wanting to be honest about just how painful and hurtful this has been and (2) trying to muster the courage to “hold the door open” for any of them to change their minds.
And since I have small children and many younger nieces and nephews (and have for much of the past decade), I have mostly interacted with the kids during family gatherings rather than take either of those two paths.
This really resonates with me. My entire family is MAGA. They are fully aboard the Trump train and will tell you that any negative thing about what he or the admin is doing is either fake news, a witch hunt, or that Biden/Obama was 100 times worse. I hate their politics and at times I have hated them. They are also my family. So I spent Christmas Eve with them and had a great time and focused on the things that I do have in common with them.
But I also know that I will never reapect any of them again, nor will I feel particularly bad when the consequences of their votes eventually bite them.
I feel all of that, at least among the older folks in my extended family.
They don’t treat me poorly. I don’t treat them poorly. It’s not estrangement.
And yet it has taken a long time to process the grief associated with what the relationship used to be. I had so much respect and admiration for these folks.
It’s not so much because of Trump or MAGA. Rather it’s that Trump/MAGA revealed that what may have once seemed like small differences of opinion now seem like signs that we operate in almost entirely different moral universes.
I have certainly changed. I don’t dispute that. But I severely underestimated how much my own evolution would impact such relationships.
I began to diverge from my family, especially my mom during the Iraq War, when I vehemently disagreed with Bush's War on Terror and she was all in. I also moved to Chicago shortly after and have spent 20 years living in a world that my family truly does not even know exists, and which radically altered the politics of my 20s. I understand that I see the world differently then they do in large part because of where I live. But I also can see that my family has some deep seated beliefs and opinions that are not just uninformed but vile and reprehensible to me. And that is hard to reconcile.
Thank you for sharing! You’ve been at this a lot longer for me. But I totally resonate with the deep-seated opinions and beliefs, some of which touch on the vile and reprehensible (though most of my folks don’t come at that directly).
I was actually all-in on invading Iraq. That was a major point of agreement with me and my extended family in the early aughts, but that actually sowed the seeds for my deconstruction politically and theologically that ultimately spurred a lot of this friction within my family.
Mark, your comments mirror my thoughts and family experiences during the MAGA times. As others have wrote here, this simmering hatred of Democrats, liberals, socialists, and other scapegoats is right in our faces now. Family relationships and gatherings are either a place to do battle or find a peaceful alternative. Backing off though does come with a cost: loss of respect for a loved one’s cult following of an obvious amoral, hateful felon.
So many people that I love have been formed to see everyone on the left side of the political spectrum as bad or even evil.
They would say they have been discipled by Jesus. But in reality right wing media has been doing much of the heavy lifting in terms of shaping their view of humanity.
Old joke with numerous authors and versions, but now repurposed for this conversation:
A backpacker is traveling through the countryside when it starts to rain. He decides to wait out the storm in a nearby pub. The only other person at the bar is an older man staring at his drink. After a few moments of silence the man turns to the backpacker and says:
"You see this bar? I built this bar with my own bare hands. I cut down every tree and made the lumber myself. I toiled away through the wind and cold, but do they call me Greggor the bar builder? No."
He continued "Do you see that stone wall out there? I built that wall with my own bare hands. I found every stone and placed them just right through the rain and the mud, but do they call me Greggor the wall builder? No."
"Do ya see that pier out there on the lake? I built that pier with my own bare hands, driving each piling deep into ground so that it would last a lifetime. Do they call me Greggor the pier builder? No."
"But ya fuck one goat.."
(At least most of the "TRUMP!" flags have disappeared from this neighborhood. Shame and embarrassment indeed.)
" It’s clearer than ever to me that that damage is extensive and pervasive and will outlast him by years. But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Trump? One single man would be responsible for the fact that a neoliberal GOP turned into a neofascist one?
Not all the neocons who built Fox in order to spread fake news 24/7?
Not the Heritage Foundation and its theocratic Christian Nationalism?
Not the neofascist tech billionaires who finance SO many careers of neofascist Republicans these days?
Not Mike Johnson, who as GOP Speaker of the House, claimed that he sees it as the job of Congress to "codify" the executive orders signed by the president (and clearly NOT written by him, most of the time, nor his ideas), which is the exact opposite of what the US Constitution says?
Not Vance? Not Bondi? Not G.W. Bush,, who made GOP voters embrace lies at the highest level?
After all these years, you're only willing to blame the only guy who was never for real in the first place, namely Trump?
Let's not forget Newt Gingrich, who because he was pissed off that Bill Clinton gave him a seat in the back of the Presidential plane returning from a trip to Israel, shut down the entire government! Now there's another petty, petty man for you.
Gingrich, contrary to Trump, was a real ideologue and one of the main GOP leaders who installed the habit of lying and betraying the GOP voter base and cultivating hatred.
So yes, Trump didn't invent any of it. It was carefully created, step by step, by many GOP "leaders", decade after decade.
"But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Amen. The "leopards/faces" trope is forbidden at my table. These are good folks for the most part, salt of the earth: and they're not the first good folks in history to have been desperate enough to fall for a slick line of patter by a snake-oil salesman.
They are good people who despite knowing everything we knew about Trump even in 2016, pulled the lever for him multiple times? Sorry, you don’t get to walk away from the consequences of your choices.
You're assuming they knew "everything we knew about Trump even in 2016."
People who spend a lot of time following politics simply fail to understand how many people DON'T spend a lot of time following politics, don't go deep into the weeds, don't perceive or understand or parse every intonation and nuance.
While you're scanning the latest news reports for more evidence of outrageous lies and cruelties and assaults on democratic norms, they're living their lives, only hearing vague generic references to cutting crime, cutting prices, making us safe. They're not hearing those ugly nuances and embracing them.
Right, but they still have to answer for their choices in 2020 and 2024. I am sorry, but if you are going to vote for the guy who incited an insurrection, I’m not going to shed tears when the appetites of the crazies turn to you.
She’s maybe a rare Federal Employee, who did NOT get capriciously Fired by DOGE… neither is she in a dept. where a lot of her co-workers were fired, such that “in the name of Efficiency” she now has to get 1 & 1/2 as many files dealt with, for the same pay.
I agree that we "don't get to walk away from the consequences of" our choices. However you are incorrect that these "good people" knew everything we knew about Trump. The fact is, they didn't. The fact is, they still don't.
Why? Because they literally sit in a bubble of disinformation and don't know how to break out. I know. I watch what they watch on a daily basis. I read what they read on a daily basis. I talk with them on a daily basis. Should they know better? Absolutely.
I should have known better when I voted for Trump in 2016. Granted, I disliked Hillary to no end and was burned out by the liberal "say his name" in-your-face (literally) approach to everything - in fact for my circle of Trump-supporting family and friends, this is #1 on why they flocked to anyone but a liberal (just happened to be Trump at the time) in 2016 - even my independent mother who has voted both Republican and Democrat.
For me personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 to punish the shit-brained Republican party for even allowing Trump to make it to the General Election.
Well obviously that was short-sighted and a mistake on my part.
How did I break out of that bubble? I started caring about politics beyond the "table issues" for the first time in my life. I stopped watching Fox as my main source of info. I read a crap-load of books by liberals, by hard-line conservatives, by pro-Trumpers, by anti-Trump conservatives. I joined Twitter and escaped Facebook. I did the hard work to educate myself. I watched over 20 hours of Jan 6th footage - I read deep dives about it from the likes of Seth Abramson and countless independent journallists. I plugged into The Bulwark, followed Ms. Cheney and Mr. Kinsinger. Researched the people surrounding Trump - not just Trump himself.
Most of these "good people" don't do this and never will. They will come to this slowly, like Egger's family, like my family. One thing I do know: if we approach their "education" the same way the far-left "say his name" liberals did, they will shut down hard.
So yeah, they should have known better and absolutely are responsible for their choices - whether educated or not, but it is inaccurate to say they "knew what we knew"
(I speak individually, not collectively because i know some actually do know better but still vote to support it - these are the hardcore MAGA's for the most part)
Listen man, I think it’s fair to say that all of these people didn’t know EVERYTHING about Trump the way we, as readers of the Bulwark, do. But in 2024, they ALL knew he was the reason for Jan 6. There is literally NO WAY to not know. And I’m sorry, but if you’re going to vote for a guy who attempted to overturn an election using a mob, you can’t be too surprised when the mob eventually goes after someone else because the dear leader is displeased.
I get it and agree, to a point. For me, though, it's not schadenfreude I am feeling. Rather it's disappointment and worry for the country and our self-government. I listened this weekend to the first part of Sarah's Focus Group replays with Anne Applebaum, where Ms. Applebaum talked about the need for an informed citizenry to fight autocracy. We've recently seen the clip from The American President where he talks about 'Democracy being hard' and 'advanced citizenry.
So yes, I certainly have empathy for people getting overrun with fund-raising messages, some of which are scams. And I understand humans are prone to snake-oil salesmen. But, when they've voted for this three times as I assume Andrew's family has, I'm afraid we can at least say that they fall into the "some of the people all of the time' group" and I'm afraid I'm out of empathy.
Our problem with MAGA is here to stay, because we tolerate a massive propaganda media network, in the name of filthy profit. Everything in the U.S. is profit based, even prisons.
I really am questioning this. My elderly uncle, not understanding that the coordinated sites he is reposting on FB, spews very clear toxic falsehoods with vehement anti Muslim rhetoric, easily debunkable claims about Obama, Biden & most Dems, and fabrications about any policy ever enacted by a Dem. My uncle fails to realize that he is the tool used to dramatically increase talking points of folks who will benefit at my uncle’s expense. But my uncle can READ the vile screeds he is reposting - what is he even thinking, what is my cousin who champions his “shares” thinking?
He's a good person (deep down) who behaves immorally.
Who we are and how we behave are two different things.
How we behave has to do with ethical education, not merely cognitive education.
Today, the GOP is installing neofascism in the US. That has been decades in the making.
Fascism always needs to brainwash an important minority of a country into hating The Other, if it wants to have SOME support among "we the people".
It's why historians have shown that it can only be installed in societies that already suffer from a "spiritual" crisis (a crisis in understanding how to lead a meaningful life, based on moral values, whether religious or not). In the US, most forms of Protestant Christianity have become entirely hollowed out. At best, their morality comes down to merely judging everyone. Very often, however, they are war machines cultivating hatred and anger 24/7.
The left, unfortunately, responded to this (and the rise of social media, as Jonathan Haidt explains in "The Coddling of the American Mind") by inventing "DEI trainings" and "safe spaces"... inside school campuses, which stiffened real debates and REAL ethical training even more.
Today, the GOP's Heritage Foundation ordered Trump to use those DEI training facilities (as an op-ed in the NYT today also shows) to impose even more censorship.
The problem is at the level of society, I'm afraid. And it was definitely created by GOP neoliberalism which, after all, already claimed from the very beginning that "democracy and capitalism are incompatible".
Neoliberalism was invented to destroy the New Deal. At first, some of its founders still believed in democracy, but from the beginning, they confounded "regulated capitalism" and "dictatorship". Today, 80 years later, their takeover of the GOP is complete, and fascism is being installed in the US. All done by mostly well-intentioned but morally quite illiterate people...
A quibble with the last part of your comment. I would say that the current GOP is not at all controlled by neoliberals, but by their opposites.
Neoliberals like free markets, free trade, and globalization, for example. The current GOP hates it. Trump's protectionist instincts and conviction that tariffs are the ultimate economic cheat code are not remotely neoliberal. His centrally managed economy approach to things, where business deals and trade deals all go through the president (if you bribe him enough), is a completely different economic approach.
There are people here who are repeating every awful thing they've ever heard about Trump voters; allowing for no possibility of decency or redemption, insisting that THEY are all vile bigots and racists and awful people who are fully on board with every evil aspect of Trumpism, and that no kind words may be spoken about them; while WE are virtuous and good and sanctified and all fine things.
These days most of us live in a bubble, an US versus THEM bubble. It's cozy in our bubbles, but it doesn't do the country any good for us to stay there.
It’s not things they have heard about Trump voters. It’s the things Trump has said he wants to do and these people willingly cast their ballots for him. Apparently now, I’m just surrounded by children who are no longer responsible for their actions and choices. I should just coddle them as they endlessly make the pro active choice to make the lives of their fellow citizens miserable.
“It's cozy in our bubbles, but it doesn't do the country any good for us to stay there.”
How about replacing the word “us”with “them?” Why is it always liberals and urbanites that are supposed to “reach out“ to the others but not vice versa?
This is an older piece (https://popular.info/p/a-far-right-website-created-36-days) but it is these coordinated sites which my uncle reposts, literally every day. The Fb algorithms ensure that he sees only more of these sites. No one is saying that my uncle at baseline is not a decent person, but he advocates toxic policies & actively amplifies the sites he is served. Finally, his church enthusiastically hosted book burning advocate and election denying Pastor Greg Locke (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/03/31/tennessee-pastor-extremist-politics/) so I expect that my uncle is not really hearing tons of viewpoints in his little rural Indiana town.
I am so happy that my browsing tricks the algorithms to feed me Lord of the Rings memes, Lego ads and how to lose weight after menopause tricks instead of politics on either side. It IS possible to have a nice FB experience despite Zuck's BS. Of course that also involved me hiding some of the worst of my MAGA family.
willoughby, a few hours ago I replied to your original post and while I liked what you and Andrew said, I disagreed with you. Now, a few hours later, I am reading all sorts of replies coming from all sorts of different places and wow, just wow. You made me think today, and obviously, you did the same to many others and for that I thank you and am very happy that we are on the same side, even though we do not agree on every individual plank. Thank you and happy new year to you and your family.
I hope that people might develop some awareness of how/why they have been susceptible to Trump's con game.
What part of their experience caused them to accept Trump's relentless blaming of "others"-people of color, affirmative action, immigrants as the cause of their economic or social woes?
It wasn’t Trump convincing them. I am a firm believer that people will latch on to whatever political party, or politician, that conforms to their world view. My parents were bigots, as are my husband’s parents. They tried to raise bigots. My parents failed with me. My husband is having a hard time believing his parents are bigots. It doesn’t conform to his world view.
Some of Trump's vocal supporters are highly educated and not stupid at all. They were not duped into supporting him. They decided that his worldview and objectives align with theirs.
I know someone who claims to dislike Trump because "he's immoral," but he thinks Democrats are always worse because they're "socialists" and they encourage immorality and they kill babies and they give free stuff to illegals. He gets very angry if I say anything to suggest that this administration's policies are harmful and its actions are unethical.
I think the anger is partly over having to face the evidence that the "conservative" party may not be the moral one after all. But he loves the mass deportation - even if it sweeps up people here lawfully, including a veteran with two Purple Hearts. When I mentioned that story, I initially saw a bit of sympathy for a fellow combat veteran, until this guy realized that I was criticizing the Trump administration. And then the rage started up.
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I asked such a person to "persuade me." I don't see those relatives often enough to try it, but my suspeicion is that we'd get two layers down - "what constitutes socialism" - and then there'd be a meltdown.
I know a rabid Trump supporter who insists that Democrats have never fairly won an election, ever. Every election ever won by a Democrat was rigged. Only Republican victories are legitimate. I didn't ask her how she knows this, or why, if the Democrats are so unpopular yet are so good at rigging elections, they don't just steal every election. She just firmly believes she is right. This is in addition to believing that Democrats are immoral socialist baby killers hellbent on destroying America.
I'm not sure how anyone gets this extreme (I suspect this particular person is mentally unstable, if not mentally ill), but decades of scorched earth right wing propaganda demonizing Democrats and "the left" as evil subhuman fiends has done its work.
To be fair, in this comment thread I sometimes see comments basically saying that the whole Republican Party has always been built entirely on greed, bigotry and ignorance.
Sure, there's no shortage of disparaging comments on either side. But by right wing propaganda, I'm talking about the right wing media machine, which really kicked into high gear in the 90's with Rush Limbaugh (and his imitators) and Fox "News" (also joined by many imitators). Their message of demonizing Democrats and "the left" was systematic and cohesive, and wildly profitable. There's nothing close to that level of cohesion and profitability in left wing media.
This advice to understand the other side is a one-way admonition, repeated with depressing and predictable regularity in the “liberal” media. I guarantee it’s not an issue in right wing media.
ALL human beings are, deep down, "good people". They all want to be happy and suffer less, they all, in their own way, care about their loved ones and country.
That's not the issue here.
What is happening today is the work of a neofascist GOP. As Kamala Harris said, this has been DECADES in the making, and NOT by Trump. Trump is merely their clown in chief, distracting us all from the real debates we should be having.
I recently commented to a truly religious friend, “This isn’t politics anymore; we are face-to-face with evil”. It has to be said, because the stakes are very high.
I agree , we have to state it out loud. Even when it is uncomfortable.
My sis was in a store, and I saw her cart loaded with baby supplies, she is
a grandmother, we spoke about prices and a recent grant given that we
both were not in favor of. It benefits the wealthy, so anyway, I said something it seemed a bit unfair, she said , Yeah they give everything to the ' blacks'
without really hearing her, I quickly said, " they don't get THAT much"
Then, I had to say see you later, no hug. The baby materials were for a granddaughter whose partner, I believe is not a legal citizen, he is brown,
I've never met him. My sis once dated a person who happened to be ' black'
what is the deal, plain and simple, they are in love w/trump. I also could tell
all of a sudden her purse/wallet is being strained, after two decades of no
problems with money in her life, hmmm. I miss my sister, she is in there
somewhere. [ luckily for me, I had nine sisters, now down to seven ]
Willoughby, the way we find out who are good folks is to watch what they do from this point forward. Yes they have been blinded by the scammers, but will their pride and tribal loyalties allow them to admit they have been duped. My guess is that the position taken by the religious leadership and by local politicians will be crucial.
Didn't some wise pundit say that people who have been conned - whether it's by a religious group or a political group, are very hard to convince they've been conned, because it's harder to believe that you were conned than it is to admit to being conned. Nobody wants to think they were stupid.
There's an old saying (often incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain) that “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
It becomes particularly difficult to open up people to a new way of thinking or to persuade them to examine their own assumptions if you're so committed to punishing them, to expressing your contempt for their delusion, to attributing the worst possible motives to them, that you cannot allow for the possibility of redemption.
KMD, you just said it you must be very wise. Of course it’s really about not wanting to give up power for this sort of person. They will wiggle and pivot, cast blame everywhere and still can’t admit anything unless it is a path to a new share of power.
Appreciate the goodwill at the heart of yours and Andrew's view on this. It says something positive about both you. But I can't stand that rationalization and couldn't disagree more. 100% of the people who voted for Trump did so with clear eyes regarding what they were signing on for. They thought he'd only hurt people they hate but not them. Their regret only comes to pass when they feel the harm in their own lives. Excusing them of that accountability just infantilizes them. They may not be evil down to their soul. But they definitely deserve to feel the pain that comes with the consequences of their actions. There are millions of people who didn't make that choice that are feeling even more pain and are much more worthy of our empathy.
I want to feel like this but I am angry. Angry at people who hear Trump and believe him. Angry too at Fox News et al .... Tired of exaggerated Patriotism. Tired of all of them.
Oh, Fox News definitely has a lot to answer for!! As I've posted before, the only couple we are friends with who are Trumpers have Fox News on from the time they get up in the morning, until the time they go to bed at night.! They are well meaning folks who are just comfortable in their fact free universe, I guess. We avoid political discussions with them at all costs!
Hoo boy, not the "salt of the earth" trope again. Most Trump supporters are well-off older white people who live in small towns and suburbs. They're not Dust Belt farmers.
loveAndrew and willoughby, you make an excellent point, and it is most likely the correct one, and yet. These good people have agency. They really can say no to the snake oil but have simply refused to do so, and with each passing day it will become harder and harder to walk away. When their own miserable logical conclusions come, it will indeed be what they voted for, and our job will be to help those we love pick up the pieces.
Why are they so desperate? I don't get it. Angry White males are doing better than anyone while they yell about why we should have no rights. Why are they desperate and we have to be their doormats, always and forever, world without end?
Perhaps because these angry white men choose to watch Fox News, listen to Joe Rogan, Alex Jones and other charlatans who prosper by promoting conspiracies and lies.
BS.. sorry the majority of Trump supporters I know aren’t innocence. The revil in the cruelty and are constantly pissed off about one thing or another…
I tend to sympathize with Sarah on this point. I think lots of people are, willfully or naturally, ignorant about their electoral choices and they are going to need to experience pain in order to consider a change; unfortunately a lot of innocents will also feel that pain. So i prefer targeted pain that can change voting behavior while avoiding the most catastrophic kinds of pain, especially that accruing to non-Trumpies and the most vulnerable.
I admit to feeling a touch of schadenfreude myself because it seems to me simply human satisfaction at seeing those who have visited injustice on others have some of it blow back onto them. Justice vindicated. And the Bible is full of cries for justice. I just try not to let it mutate into a desire to inflict revenge.
"...desperate enough to fall for a slick line of patter.."
But why are they desperate? This is what I don't get. The world is changing and they're frightened? Isn't the world always changing? I'm in my 70s for crissakes, and I'm not frightened.
six months ago I was in an argument with a MAGA brother in law. It started as a seated conversation and then turned to raised voices and then he even stood up and got even more voicterous screaming actually. I don't treat him the same as before. It's the women's rights, human rights, limits on other abled people issues I can't get past but more so his reaction to my opinions.
He probably (at least subconsciously) felt like you were attacking his very identity, the core beliefs that make him who he is. Lashing out at you is not surprising in that circumstance, but not excusable, and you are smart to avoid him or at least avoid any conversation that might incur his wrath again.
I don’t have any MAGA family members, and manage to avoid them out in the wild. So I read accounts like yours, and Andrew’s piece today with fascination. I honestly think I would avoid family gatherings if it entailed sharing food with MAGAs. But since I don’t have to make that choice, it’s unfair of me. Which explains my fascination. I am definitely in the minority; judging from my media consumption most people wrestle with this conundrum.
There is of course a line between Mr, Egger’s grandmother and MTG. You can call it naïveté if you want, but yes, your grandmother has been taken in, and it is not just the unwanted solicitation for donations. As MTG has realized the loyalty and might I add the money flows only one way. At some point people have to understand they’ve been taken for a ride and the end point was never going to be a good one. Until people get to that point and start, like MTG, making their calculations based on those realizations, nothing will change. Good people can make bad decisions that harm them, but they have to learn from those decisions. As much as I may not like or trust MTG, she is demonstrating a capacity to learn which is more than can be said for much of MAGA and even *moderate* GOP left in the Party.
If your cousin is noticing an uptick in antisemitism, I can pretty much guarantee that is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the underlying racism: I wouldn’t want to hear what these people havre say about African Americans or Hispanics.
Yep. She's in that age range where all her right-leaning male classmates are inundating themselves with man-o-sphere swill and edge lord social media and podcasts. This is the future of the Republican Party. The next generation will drop the elephant for a Pepe the Frog.
She’s a bit older than those troglodytes so has more memories of a different era. If you look at her life, she doesn’t seem to stick with anything for very long. If those guys are the future of the Republican Party, hie many women are going to stick around to find out how things turn out?
I still don’t trust MTG’s “conversion”. She broadcasts her “Christianity” a bit too much. And she is a known attention seeker. I hope to be proven wrong.
Oh she’s an attention whore alright. I don’t really trust her, and she seems to flight from thing to thing. But she is capable of self reflection on some level which is more than can be said for most of MAGA.
"The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him." Whether you meant "moment" or "movement" the result is the same.
"He" is as much to blame for their falling for his gobbledegook messaging as the attendees of PT Barnum's Circus were, who were there because PT knew that there was one born every minute. "He" was never anything but a Snake Oil Salesman who knew how to spin a yarn that would catch anyone gullible enough to listen to him promise to "take on the system" and "tell it like (he wants them to believe) it is".
I am not trying to "shame" or "blame" the victims, but at some point you need to open your eyes and watch out for yourself. Admittedly, for some, perhaps many, that point comes too late. But, ultimately, it was their choice to do what they did, perhaps by not looking at the fine print, perhaps because it all sounded so good, perhaps because they never expected "Him" to be like that, although his entire history leads to no other conclusion.
Funny it used to be a conservative creed. Just like pulling yourself up by bootstraps, small government, free markets. As George Conway said; Republicans who once hated big government interference are now getting that in spades!
Dave, get over it; there are neither "conservatives" nor "Republicans" worthy of the name any more. They are either MAGAts or castaways in the wilderness by wish of the Felon, e.g., MTG, or E. Stefanik.
I am fully aware that the old labels no longer apply today. There are a few conservatives who remain true to their ideals. Bill Kristol, Charlie Sykes are among that few. For a long time I refer to the former Republican Party as MAGA/ Republicans.
My 86 year old Dad bought a horrible Trump watch, it looks like the cheap arm weight it is. Why won't you wear your classy Citizen watch I ask, it's not as shiny he says. I want to cry.
Obviously, Andrew isn't confronted by truly horrible people in his family, like the young neo Nazis he describes. Some of us aren't so lucky. Our feelings are more complicated and severing relationships does makes sense. Sorry, I'm not feeling sorry for terrible people, family or not.
In addition, none of the examples Andrew shared are suffering any consequences whatsoever, including economic problems that trump's orders (the guy simply doesn't have 'policies') are causing some of the poorer people in this country. I don't doubt for one second that all of those people would vote for trump a fourth time if given the chance, based just on the information here.
Hey Andrew! Having lived in Cedar Rapids for my formative years, I am always amazed how Iowa is sometimes a weird connective tissue to all sorts of stuff. Especially since none of my current social circle can tell the difference between Idaho, Iowa, and Ohio.
I tend to agree with you, a lot of my sympathy is religious or spiritual. We need to practice compassion, it's a skill, a muscle, and it needs training and exercise. Part of what made Christ's message so radical was that he admonished his followers to love even our enemies. If we are thinking about Christmas, we ought to be thinking about how we go about loving folks in Trumpland who are in the FO part of FAFO.
Also, there's an extremely cynical political reason to not just gloat over folks in Trumpland getting a comeuppance for voting for Trump, and that's that you need a good number of these people to vote for Democrats in 2026 and beyond. It's a lot easier to get votes from people by treating them as human beings worthy of respect.
I agree in theory, but does MAGA really want Christian love and kindness? Those are the emotions they need, but do they understand that. If anything Trump/MAGA had brought to light the radical Rambofication of American Christianity which started without Trump, but has accelerated with his rise to power. I am unlikely to agree with MTG’s view of Christianity, but she does seem to believe it is more than ‘Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war’. This is the part I struggle with as much of MAGA appears to be built on rejection not acceptance. For there to be some sort of *healing* or moving past MAGA, there will have to be some acceptance from their side.
As for the 3 states you mention, I hold out much more hope for Iowa, and then Ohio before Idaho. Northern Idaho is beautiful country, but it was home to the Neo-Nazis before they started to go mainstream.
Agree on the states! I mention them mostly because now, living on the east coast, I routinely meet people who have no knowledge which state is which. They are very different in many ways, including as pickup prospects for Democrats.
For love of enemies, I'd think this is less about what they need and more about what we need. We don't need to agree with them, or coddle them, per se. We need only to maintain compassion for them. I personally don't believe in the death penalty, for example. That doesn't mean I think that those convicted of an otherwise capital offense should be unaccountable for their crimes. Just that they don't ever stop being human beings of equal moral worth or less worthy of our compassionate concern, regardless of what they did in the eyes of society or the law to deserve punishment. So, someone can both (1) deserve punishment and (2) still require our compassion. At least, in a certain religious/spiritual/philosophical worldview.
For the pragmatic and calculated move of welcoming Trumpists back into the fold without requiring flagellation beforehand, that's way less about what anyone needs or deserves, and more about getting more votes in competitive places as a matter of pure political mechanics. Do they *need* to come to some acceptance on their side to pull the lever for a Democrat in 2026 or 2028 or 2030? I'd like to see it, you'd like to see it, but all that needs to happen in reality is for them to fill in the correct bubble. Even if they do that for deeply unsatisfying reasons, that'll still get the blue team closer to 60 votes in the Senate.
I agree with you on the death penalty. I don’t know how many will vote Democratic, but I will take splitting votes and a crack up of MAGA. Those who will vote for Democratic candidates, and I hope they will, are those whose life journey allows for growth.
The Aryan Nation owned property on Hayden lake North of Coeur d’Alene — I know this because my sister worked at a summer camp on said lake back in the late 90’s. In the early 2000’s they lost a lawsuit involving their security guards assaulting people which bankrupted them and subsequently had to sell off the property. On the other hand, the summer camp still exists and my stepbrother and his family frequently go there.
Kotzsu, I can relate to your experience. I grew up in tiny communities adjacent to CR (Hiawatha, Covington) and graduated from JHS. After college, I went to grad school in Pasadena, CA, and was surrounded by people who were only vaguely aware that Iowa was an actual place. A couple of times, when I replied "Iowa" to a question about my origin, they responded "Idaho?" apparently thinking I must have misspoken. My wife of nearly 5 decades still can't keep straight the difference between a Hawkeye and a Buckeye, let alone the fact that I lean Cyclone. Since I left Iowa, I've lived in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New Mexico. These places really are completely different worlds from where I was born.
I tend to think that Christ's message might be a key, but I don't know how you break through. All of those people sitting in church on Sunday obviously don't spend much time trying to internalize Christ's teachings. They think just parking their butts in the pews makes them good people, nothing more required.
I have friends and family who have been and continue to be conned by Trump and the grift regime and I too might call them "good people." Fact is, every con plays to the larceny in the heart of the victim. These people straight up have some repenting to do. I'll do my best to help them see how they've been victimized and who the real target of their anger should be but the rest is up to them.
I get you JF. I think it's important to be generous to those you care about even if you're bound to fail. These people are friends and family. At the same time, there's no need to let them hurt you.
It’s a moral dilemma for me to imagine, because thankfully I don’t have any close relationships who are MAGA. I still reckon with it in my mind, because moral dilemmas fascinate me. I do know it’s a line I will not cross with new acquaintances; if I learn they are MAGA that’s the end of any contact. And I’m not alone; apparently young MAGA males cannot find women to date.
"I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Here's the problem. How many of these people would vote for Trump again? They never learn. And the good people this political moment is immiserating are the people who didn't vote for this shit, too, and they're getting screwed because of the "good people" who did vote for him because they refuse to trust anything besides the liars inside their bubble. My better angels are all dead; this grifting fraud has been here for over ten years, he's a felon, a known grifter (Trump Foundation? Trump University?), and he incited an insurrection at the Capitol to overturn an election he lost.
Good people died during the pandemic due to Trump's bungling, and yet Republicans voted for him again! How many lessons can life try to teach people? It's getting awfully repetitive and yet the needle isn't moving.
Well-articulated as usual, Andrew. Boy, do I see this on a daily basis in my small town. I don't hate these people, but I do vehemently disagree with them. Most I've known all my life -- they aren't bad people, at all, in fact they are mostly terrific souls.They bought the BS, hook, line, and sinker, and don't know what to make of it now. They are getting quieter by the day because their lives have not improved at all, in fact, it is going the other way. Pity is my overwhelming emotion for many of them, not anger.
I really appreciate Andrew's candid account of his own family. And I don't blame him for not laying the blame on his MAGA family members...after all, they're family.
But if we're being intellectually honest, you can't blame Trump while excusing his voters. Trump didn't become President (twice) in a vacuum. People voted for him. And to the extent that they were manipulated, on some level, they allowed the manipulation to happen. They're not innocent victims. They have free will, and they used it.
I can understand people voting for him in 2016, and to a certain extent also in 2020. But anyone who voted for him in 2024 knew exactly what they were getting, and that’s what they wanted. I mean, for crying out loud, the man gave a bj to a microphone in front of a crowd of thousands. By that time he had been exposed as a serial, incurable liar, con man, cheat, and misogynist. He cozied up publicly to white supremacists. He had been convicted on 34 felony counts of fraud. He had been found liable for what the court itself called rape. He led an armed insurrection against the United States of America.
So no, no quarter for anyone who voted for him in 2024 — they voted for him because he promised them he was going to make life miserable for any group they hated, and they cheered that. They were more excited about exacting revenge for their perceived victimhood than they were about any attempt to allow them to improve their lives. The fact that these despicable people have families does not excuse them.
I guess that's where I get hung up. They voted for hate, and I don't see how that isn't obvious. And when you plant seeds of hate, you get a hateful harvest. And here we are, as predictable as math. And nobody is going to say "I'm sorry I voted against Americans." So where do we go from here?
Yet I have encountered the odd 2024 Trump voter who now regrets it. Strange but true.
Because the evil is now way more openly brazen than in Trump 1.0. But it was always fairly obvious to people with critical thinking skills.
The vail came off on January 6th. I can’t forgive anybody who voted for him in 2024.
January 6 should have been a line in the sand for anyone with a pulse.
My reaction watching Jan 6 on cspan with no narrator led me
to see just where we are. I say if they did not see it, they avoided seeing it. Or are pretending.
It was pretty obvious to anyone that cared to listen - no critical thinking skills required. Trump always told everyone who he was. "When a man tells you who he is, believe him".
Maybe the first time they voted for him, it was funny. By the third time, it was a conscious choice to embrace evil.
Yep, I think so too.
Amen Sister!
But did they vote for Trump all three times or two out of three? Are the MAGA?
It does make a difference. Most MAGA are hopeless. True believers. It's the other voters who took a chance again for whatever reason who can be turned.
I blame the mainstream legacy media to a great degree. Despite his own words, despite those of former members of the first admin who warned that this time there would be no guardrails, the voters who went for Trump refused to believe. "Oh, it's all bluster, just Trump being Trump. It'll be just like the first four years, and we survived that, right?" That was the thinking for so many non MAGA voters who put him over the top. Instead of educating themselves, they just go with their gut and what they "believe." And their beliefs are reinforced by a media that has done nothing but sanewash him over the past decade and continues to do so. The abysmal pieces in the NYT about whether he was "breaking norms" just reminded me how bad their political reporting is. (As if I need reminding.)
I agree with you about blaming the legacy media. In 2016, Trump manipulated them into giving him billions of dollars worth of free, uncritical coverage. In 2024, CNN, The NY Times, Washington Post, CBS, ABC and a host of others were clearly in the tank for him.
But he’s so entertaining! And those ratings!
Regret as in, they are unhappy Trump supporters or have actively turned against him? Because I’m betting they are still the same shitty people, they are just mad at Trump, but they’d vote for him again.
If they feel that way now, it's because their Messiah has in some way come to bite them on their personal ass. I welcome all into the tent but forgiveness will take a long, long time.
I have too. A nurse in my family who works for the VA was a trump voter. Once 2025 began and Doge became a reality, she regretted her vote and admitted it. Seeing people lose their jobs for no real reason upset her, because it effected HER friends, her job. That is why the veil was lifted for her. I think for most it has to be personal.
there lies a lot of pride in always being a Republican no matter what........
I once had very interesting neighbors who managed to accidently set their house afire on three (!) different occasions, the last time with pretty significant but repairable damage. Nice people with some quirky behaviors and a strange inability to anticipate that a plan might go awry.
Should I have waited for the flames to spread to MY house before thinking them dangerous idiots responsible for their own pain? During the third fire I was the neighbor who linked together four garden hoses so I could hit their roof from my water supply. Thereafter, I just kept a hose and sprinkler connected to each bib at my house so I could rapidly deploy four defensive streams. Strike four would have to be their problem.
I think after 3 episodes, my thought would have been, it’s time to move.
Your points are certainly good ones.... I wrack my brain daily trying to understand how family members who seem so kind and decent generally could have voted for this man. The only possible answer I can come up with is, they are literally living in a bubble. I have a cousin I love who never watches or reads ANY news... just listens to podcasts. She believes every word Trump and RFK, Jr. say. I'm betting these family members have never even heard of or seen a lot of the things Trump has done, and have swallowed every lie about migrants and immigrants. If you see much at all of Fox News (as I have to, whenever I'm taking care of my Dad) you'll come away feeling a certain measure of despair about how everything has been so twisted. Case in point: a panel of commentators on Fox talking about how it would make sense for Trump to enact the Insurrection Act because of all these governors who are defying Federal Law. And also the constant discussions about all these Democrats who are creating false stats about crime and are willing to let dangerous people out of jail and don't care about crime victims... ad nauseam. Anyway, it does seem that anyone who is totally immersed in the right-wing media-sphere is going to think the same things about Democrats that we think about MAGA R's. To me, that is what is so scary about our situation.
Here’s the thing though, and I also struggle with this knowing a few Trump (2024) voters. Whether they’ve siloed themselves in a media bubble or they actually approve of Trump’s actions, they’ve shown themselves to be unreliable and untrustworthy. Possibly dangerous, because I cannot count on them to make good decisions.
Good point, Donald, and I agree. I am much more leery of my MAGA relatives now and more hesitant to trust their decisions. It's sad.
I told my father that I will never forgive him for being a Maga Republican and voting for this mess. Truly, 2016 was very revealing for me, it showed me who my father really is and it was hard to acknowledge, but I accept it now. I could talk til I am blue in the face and he would not change his vote.
I also told him that his grandson actually saw him vote (he was babysitting him on 2024 election day) for trump, and he did look embarrassed that my son saw (he was 11 years old then). I told him he should be ashamed, history is not going to be kind to those that supported trump or maga. I happened to campaign for Harris in my local neighborhood, my son with me, as he's watched the debate and been to the No King's Day protests with me.
And my father has shown us who he is with that 2024 vote.
He did not care that this cruel billionaire was aimed at destroying the country we love. That it would be his grandson who will be affected the most by the big, stupid bill, and the take-down of any genuine oversight in our government. He knew trump was corrupt and also a terrible person, yet he voted for him anyway. What excuse could he offer me that explains it? None. His concern was only for himself, who at 85, should be looking out for and thinking about the youngest member of the whole family and their future.
Don’t get me wrong: Once someone is immersed in the mob, politically it’s difficult to impossible to communicate with them as an individual.
My thinking, FWIW. People are generally okay as individuals but are capable of anything when they join a mob. Trump has succeeded in creating a permanent mob.
an infection, and yes a mob. but it affects all of us, thusly an infection.
That's it, I think. It's pretty easy to be completely immersed in the MAGA info-and anger-tainment bubble. It's also expensive, so they consume a lot of it, getting what they paid for.
In the U.S. Election of 2024, I blame mostly the people who had voted in 2020, but didn’t vote at all in 2024… (I’m Canadian, and we don’t have “mandatory voting” here either… but Australia has it, though it’s just a small fine for Not Voting… I believe that sometimes the littlest kick dill get folks of the couch!)
But, I also understand the folks who didn’t vote in 2024: Some just thought, “Well, I thought he was crazy in 2016, I voted against him twice, and he still did not Go Away, and Congress would not Remove Him as an option, when they had the chance!”, & the only alternative is this dull-speaking California woman with her hyper feminist fans… “there’s no point in voting at all!!”
Also, Trump won by Electoral College (which warped actual Democracy away from the Vote) after winning a slim plurality, not majority, of voters’ votes.
Well, failure to vote was definitely a factor. But there was also a strong “We already had us a Black guy, and we ain’t’ gonna have us no damn fee-male, especially a Black one” factor. The misogyny part is almost certainly what lost her a significant part of the Latino and Black male vote. Harris made mistakes, to be sure, and she was not the ideal candidate, but I take strong issue with your characterization of “hyper-feminist” fans. That was absolutely not the case for why she came so close to beating the 🍊💩. And with all her flaws and her raw deal from Biden, I cannot believe any rational human would consider 🍊💩 to have been a better choice, it just defies logic.
Well, I do agree that “it defies logic”, but I’ve sadly come to believe that most people make most decisions, with appeal only to the “vibes” in their head, and none at all to the remnants of “logic” that live there. Like, for Trump voters, “the very convincing tone*” that he used, speaking about the windfalls of “Tariffs”, or the evils of Trade Deficits with Ally-Nations,or high grocery-prices. He hasn’t a logical-plan, in his head… But, democrats needed to do something different than just calmly say “That’s not truth, what he’s saying isn’t true.” They needed to “convince” voters of the truth.
And, they kept pointing a fan at a waterfall, in that regard.
(*Putin, having observed the trick Trump plays on voters, plays the same one on him; what Trump calls Putin’s “very strong statements”, lies about his war.)
YES, a lot of us are living in minority rule, it's unsettling. and he is not
using rule of law, he's using rule by law. it's really gone to his head
( I mean the entire administration, not one idjit )
Responded myself before seeing this post. FWIW:
"But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
IMHO you can't just say something like this without explaining it. Let's leave aside the negative connotations of schadenfreude (i.e. the opposite of grace) and just call it something like blaming those who voted for Trump. Why are those Trump voters not to blame? Did they have no agency? Are people not responsible for their voting choices and the causes/people they support financially? Do people not bear at least minimal responsibility to try to sort truth from fiction? Are people not responsible for making basic human judgments about the trustworthiness and competence of individuals who want to lead them?
If you want to say that those good people don't deserve EVERYTHING that is happening to them, that they could not have anticipated the range and depth of Trump's evil policies, ok, I suppose one can make that argument with a straight face. But saying that they bear NO responsibility for what is happening to them? That seems to me to be absurd on its face and at the very least you owe your readers an explanation/analysis for that assertion.
Andrew's grandmother was conned. Was she conned because she really wanted that $2000 check, the easiest way to con people? I don't think so. She was conned for the same reason she doesn't read Andrew's writing. She has been taught and trained over decades to reject evidence that the oligarchs don't care about her and just want her money.
What does it say that Andrew’s own grandmother doesn’t believe what Andrew says about Trump? These people are beyond saving and not worth the time and effort. Folks that set aside their morals and ethics for family are why we are in the fucking place. Stop giving family a pass. Stop taking away their agency. They voted for this and we are still showing up to help them? No! Boot straps granny. Boot straps.
I don't know what showing up to help them means. Scams like the one Andrew described are supposed to be illegal, but I guess we don't think Republican officials are subject to the law anymore.
Because we’ve seen Republicans are not bound by laws. Do we think that Trump is going to go after his own? No! Besides, this is what Andrew’s granny wanted. She gave Trump $10 despite all of what he represents. Those getting fleeced DESERVE this. MAGA voters deserve to lose it all because they decided their desire to be bigots and racists mattered the most.
Kate - it's plausible to me that the "fund raiser" who fleeced gramma did put some disclaimer in the email or website where the money was gullibly signed over (at the bottom, in 4 pt. pale gray font). Andrew was able to see "this wasn’t some fake group pretending to be a GOP politician’s PAC, after all, but the real thing." I'd expect the dramatic pitch is designed to comply just inside the knife's edge of any fraud laws. The unfortunate reality is that such laws are passed by politicians and so, designed to permit "artistic license" in exaggeration or hyperbole - cuz these are the very people who plan to benefit themselves via such appeals for $$$ to fight socialism or authoritarianism... depending which list you're on..
I'm disgusted by _some_ of the "blue" appeals with which I've been bombarded over the past couple years. Wild rhetoric designed to inflame ire.
Gullibility greatly exceeds reflection in our population. If Willie Sutton were still around, he'd tell us where the money is 😉
When the Federal Election Commission has been stripped of all power and doesn’t even bother to investigate Republican violations, there is no law.
Trump succeeds and thrives on hatred and division, be careful that you do not fall into his trap of making "others" unworthy of our love and care. We are all guilty of making wrong and unwise decisions, I don't believe that casting Trump voters aside as not worth our "time and effort" is fair or just. I, for one, do not want to be like Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, or JD Vance as they excoriate Democrats and portray them as deserving of their collective hatred. Love, compassion, and understanding should be extended to all people, regardless of their political views. It is, frankly, the only thing that will eventually win some of them over. Scorn and disgust, the easier path to take, will surely have the opposite effect.
It’s called holding them accountable. If that means letting them suffer consequences then so be it. They made choices and are saying they would make them again if they could go back. I have yet to hear anyone from MAGA saying they would have voted Kamala. I have yet to hear one of them say they are against Trump. At best, they just say they shouldn’t have voted. These are not children, despite their mental abilities. They are adults with agency who decided to elect a rapist pedophile conman after 10 years of evidence showing who he is. I will not let bygones be bygones or turn the other cheek as long as they continue to be a threat.
She may not live long enough to want to eat the rich, but if she does…
Trump is a symptom, not a disease. Trump and Trumpism are the predictable outcome of the GOP as a whole letting racists/xenophobes, misogynists, and conspiracy cooks into their party without denouncing any of those ideas for the better part of 50 years. From Reagan until present, the GOP brought the Limbaugh fans, the Buchanan fans, and the Alex Jones fans into their movement and never said a bad word about any of those "thought leaders" (I hesitate to call them that). Welp, when you usher the folks with these beliefs into your party they eventually become a block, and often that block becomes a core on a long enough timeline. We're at the part where they've become the core, and it's because republicans for the last 50 years have refused to denounce the radical views of their voters. They grew the alligator in the bathtub, and now it's grown big enough to eat their movement. I cannot stress enough how predictable this all was, and how much of the blame lays at the feet of old school conservatives who welcomed this kind of thing into their party and didn't say a peep about it. "No enemies to the right" is not a new thing, it's been happening for 50 years now and Trumpism is the end result.
And JD Vance has no intention of kicking them out now.
I like his framing (paraphrasing) "I will not be pressured into presenting purity tests onto voters" when asked to take on the groypers, etc. I can't imagine a dem politician ever responding like that when asked to confront the antisemitic elements within their party.
It’s amazing how Republicans can’t avoid resorting to whatabooutism.
Trump ripped off the mask of respectability of the Republican Party. Reagan and the Bushes groomed the Republicans for Trump.
Republicans, republicans, republicans... what I find so exacerbating is that Trump has no REPUBLICAN or DEMOCRATIC ideals. He is an island of evil and petulance surrounded by what he judged as the most acquiescent of the two parties that would be willing to give him what he wanted - to rule the world and take pleasure out of making leaders of industry, education, politics, and religion bow down to him and grovel at his feet while he unlawfully rules the nations like a child playing games that he must win at all costs. How he, one man, has succeeded in surrounding himself with the trappings of kingship, when his popularity is at an all-time low, when most of the world (including most Republicans) hate and revile him, I am at a loss to understand.
Being an island of evil and petulance IS a republican ideal. Why do you think Epstein Island was such a popular destination?
100%
I agree with your timeline. 41 years ago as I was being driven to the hospital to deliver my second child, the car radio news was celebrating the birthday of Ronald Reagan. I was aghast to realize my baby would share a birthday with that sunny-faced evil destructionist.
ooof
Trump was a symptom. Now he’s the disease.
YES!! THIS!! I love JVL, Tim and the Bulwark gang but the massive blind spot to what the GOP was nurturing in the corner ….
Well said.
I would bring back Sarah’s Republican triangle of doom. The voters, the politicians and the entertainment winged of the media echo system are bringing everyone down.
Algorithms.
I'm not sure I agree with this. If we win the midterms in 2026 and the presidency in 2028, it will be because some folks who voted for Trump will vote Dem. Others will stay home. There are many Trump voters who are truly evil people, but others are deluded, misguided, or misinformed.
I admit that "With malice toward none and charity for all" didn't work out so well, but I'm not sure vengeance would have worked out better
To be clear, I'm not calling for vengeance. But I'm also not one to blame a cult leader while excusing their followers. People who buy snake oil, by and large, are already in the market for snake oil. They're just waiting for someone to come sell it to them.
That is why con man are con man. "Their is a sucker born every minute" as P T Barnum once said.
If you're talking about immersive cults, the lions share of blame does indeed lie with the leaders. The followers are emotionally damaged and vulnerable. What they are in the market for are basic human needs, including, ironically enough, a sense of agency. 'I have to do something dramatic to turn my life around!'
In short, these people mostly need therapy, and they are being exploited for somebody's power trip or profiteering.
There's a short classic video documentary called Lord of the Universe that's very revealing of cult dynamics. It's also entertaining as hell. Highest recommendation.
https://youtu.be/Qomvyw67_jQ?si=lMww_iPgb9bIMBWn
It treats the marks with incredulity leavened with sympathy. Chicago 7 defended Rennie Davis had fallen into this cult, and the film-makers solicited some great commentary from the then-underground Abbie Hoffman.
Anyway, 'cults of personality' while not immersive have some of the same dynamics. They're a way of filling empty places inside. Since people don't sign over their whole lives to them -- they're literally part-time -- we may find more contradiction between culty expression and who they still are in other contexts, and imagine the self-delusion is somehow less excusable.
The problem is imagining that any of us have a single consistent nature, a unified subjectivity, leaving us subject to some blanket moral judgement. We can't totally excuse the followers, or totally blame them either. The leaders, OTOH, are so dominated by cruel and greedy facets of subjectivity, that IMO vengeance is warranted.
You got that right!
I love this analysis.
I agree with you and came here to write this exact thing. Andrew’s family and friends have zero excuse. They had a great resource in Andrew who they all chose not to listen to.
They did in fact vote for exactly what is happening to them now. The really difficult part is that the consequences of their vote are also impacting the rest of us.
I’ll save my sympathy for those who didn’t vote for all of this and are truly being hurt by it.
Lack of empathy, lack of sympathy, constant anger.... these are characteristics of Trump's malevolent personality. We must be careful to not become what we are fighting so hard to change. The only thing that will win this war is to be our better selves and repudiate Trump's worst instincts. We must fight hard and strategically, and hit back with the same energy.... but not with the same spiteful tactics used by the enemy.
Popov's paradox of tolerance does a very good job of rejecting the idea that a tolerant society can or should be tolerant of intolerance, and indeed well articulates that the one thing a tolerant society cannot afford to be is tolerant of the intolerant, because it describes exactly the fall from grace that America has demonstrated.
and what we really need in the next few years is 60 votes in the senate. If we want something like a set of Trump acts to make the worst parts of the Trumpist authoritarian project illegal (like giving the insurrection clause of the 14th amendment teeth or reigning in the president's use of emergency powers), then the Dem's need to win senate seats in places like Iowa.
This is a key point that tends to be brushed aside by pro-democracy advocates who feel the need to point fingers. What's more important: Winning enough elections to reform American governing institutions or feeling morally superior?
We don’t need 60 senators; we need 50 committed senators and the presidency and then eliminate the filibuster, which gives minority control. Make DC a state, pass abortion rights, pass voting rights, ban gerrymandering, add 4 Supreme Court justices, make a Democrat the head of the FBI, and stop the bipartisan nonsense.
At this point most of DHS should be abolished and rebuilt piecemeal and siloed as they should have remained, but thats beside the point that one of the things we also really need to do is simply break up the United States into a bunch of smaller countries that are dominated by the control of their economic centers, so that we can once and for all devalue the untrustworthy rural populations representation.
Nodding in Chicagoan
The Democrats need to win in "places like Iowa" just to scratch out a majority in the Senate. The map is uphill.
What we really need is to stop pretending we can vote our way out of a situation that we didn't vote our way into. We've allowed the rise of a fascist dictator in control of the government who has ignored the rule of law in an endless series of victories colored by defeats in the courts, which it should be noted have neither stopped nor slowed our descent into fascism.
Any belief in the strength of the system to extricate us ignores the fact that the System is being wholly controlled by the fascist in question.
Yeah, this turning the other cheek is a real trial.
I’m waiting for the articles advising Trump supporters to “understand” the other side. I’ve lost count of the number of articles I’ve encountered over the years, imploring that I should try to understand MAGAs. I understand them, I truly do. Most of the ones I know are as mean spirited as Trump himself.
Yep. I see exactly what those who call themselves Republicans really are. It’s really simple. They are racist bigots who at best want to protect pedophiles and at worst are pedophiles themselves. This is who they are. It is who they have always been.
Pedophilia also plays a huge role in my recent awareness of a movement called “deconstruction” by young women who were raised within very dominating religious communities. (I think that’s what deconstruction is; I need to look it up more deeply than YouTube videos.). Those communities denounce female sexuality, while making use of it with girls too young to resist. It’s hypocrisy on a despicable scale, and shared by MAGA ideology.
I think it can help to more carefully define what we are talking about. Pollsters would suggest that there is not one shade of Trump supporter. For example, swing voters rather than hard-core MAGA types made the crucial difference in the 2024 presidential election. What's wrong with trying to better understand why they went with Trump?
I guess it comes down to what you're trying to do. If you want to win elections -- particularly as the electoral map gets more difficult after the next census -- then doesn't it make sense to better understand the potentially persuadable portion of the electorate?
I see your point, I think. As a practical matter, like winning elections, then the effort makes sense. On a personal level I don’t even mind except that it’s assumed to be a one-way requirement, as if they are babies. Which isn’t far off, now that I think of it . . .
Yes JF come to think of it all the maga's I know are msaT's too.
I’m unfamiliar with that acronym; I looked it up and mostly got “master of science and technology” which I’m pretty sure isn’t your point . . .
I think he means to quote you regarding MAGAs: "mean spirited as Trump"
See Beth:-)
He never said it would be easy.
Ok but I seem to recall something about roses and piano's Linda.
Trump supporters are adults with agency over their choices.
Absolutely and unequivocally true. Responsibility is not binary. That Trump takes a share of the blame is obvious. But that those who cast ballots for him also take a share of the blame is equally obvious--if only by virtue of the plain fact that tens of millions were not so beguiled, and that is very, very hard to conjure any unambiguously kind, generous, or thoughtful motive for pulling the lever for him. His appeals always come back to fear, anger, jaundice, vengeance, or bias. Yielding to those appeals is absolutely NOT innocent--literally, that is, "without guilt."
Remember, the changes in laws allowing the consolidation of media has a lot to do with this. RW billionaires bought up local television, radio, and newspapers in small markets, or the chains that supply them with info. Suddenly they went from balanced reporting and news to one sided lies and propaganda that is then reinforced by their pastors in the pulpit, especially if they are conservative or evangelical Christian. And it's been going on for forty years. It's been drilled into them that Dems are evil and the GOP are the salt of the American earth standing for traditional values. Which makes it hard for Dems to break through in all those red spaces, especially in the South and Midwest.
I have a brother who voted for Trump. I cannot understand why. My brother is extremely smart and well-read. And yet, here we are. All that my other brother and I can come up with is that he, like our mother, is a black and white thinker. But that does not completely explain what he sees in this guy.
Black and white thinking is a trait of toddlers. I believe that the crux of the issue; we have a large segment of the population in “arrested development”, caused by so many factors; social media, dumbed-down education, entertainment addiction. It’s depressing because it doesn’t offer much hope for a future correction. Not when big money is behind the oppression of the mind.
🤷♀️He will never change, and it is a near-constant source of irritation for me and for my other brother.
I guess the best medicine in your situation is knowing you are not alone. I read about your situation so often, I’m wondering if I’m an outlier, by not being faced with this. It feeds my curiosity why people with similar backgrounds can end up so different.
It’s odd, because we are alike in so many ways. And it is always a source of irritation; it never goes away.
It must be psychologically exhausting, dealing with the push/pull of dramatically conflicting values with a loved one. Families are rarely easy, but MAGA has introduced a whole new line of division; as if that was needed! I wonder if he shares your pain at the situation. That’s a rarely examined angle.
Hey, that brought up something, if either of my parents were still
living I think that their influence maybe could have had an impact
on four of my siblings, so now they are orphans, but the other
eight of us are also orphans, none of us voted for the child president.
The hate, the un-joy.
Your brother is a racist bigot. That is why they voted for Trump. Stop pretending you don’t see it, the signs are there.
Are you rage-baiting?
I'm curious. Did you ask him why? (I can understand if you didn't; not a judgment question here).
Oh, we have had words many times. He and my SIL were outraged a few days ago when I told them that Trump is getting senile. They watch Fox, which doesn’t show that he is getting ga-ga.
And one is liable for their own actions. Responsibility, what a concept!
My thoughts as well. They made the choice to join it because it offered them the chance to let out their demons.
Let's look at them like addicts who need to shed their victim complex and make amends for what they have created. Until then they are nothing but dry drunks.
“… after all, they're family.”
So? Unless their immediate family, why should you not treat them as you would an ex-friend who has sold their soul to the devil? What’s so special about a blood connection?
Andrew offered us an intimate glimpse into Trump voters he's known and loved his whole life. I would not expect him to come back from the holidays and publicly trash them. But he went further than not trashing them...he tried to exonerate them. And that's where I disagreed with him.
I almost agree. It is a privacy matter, I give Andrew credit for even sharing
a little, we were not there, we do not matter to that family. I still love my
family who voted in a crazy way, but I've certainly lost respect, for sure
my contact with trump voters in my own immediate family is limited to only one
of ' them '. And, no i do not tolerate any spiel from him either. the others I see
rarely and we do not converse, we cannot. They get red in the face, so I stopped
other than saying Hello, don't even hug any longer. I like the devil reference, although
I believe evil and cruel is more accurate. This was a reply to Ron Br....
Yup! Those ADULTS chose this Andrew. Boomers and Gen X chose this for America. They chose this for their children. The two generations who benefited the most from the American order pulled up the ladder and told the rest of us to get fucked. I will enjoy the schadenfreude and will make no apologies for doing so. May the voters have the day they voted for. That includes my own MAGA father.
Oh, c'mon, Jeff. A lot of young men, of all races, crossed over to vote for Trump last time. He couldn't have won without them. And where are all the young people at the protests? Generation bashing goes both ways. Don't think like a bot.
The younger generations haven’t had the levers of power for the last 50 years. This is more than the last election.
Still at it. And now upset about the last 50 years to boot. Someday some aggrieved youngster will be railing at you too, if you're lucky. Let's stop with the generational stereotyping. As I said, it goes both ways.
Thank you for mentioning the lack of young people at the protests. Some of Trumps most solid support is among young men. Perhaps Jeff should be looking at his friends, not his parents.
My friends show up to the protests thank you very much.
My friends and I vote Democrat and show up to protests thank you very much.
The group that turned towards Trump the heaviest was Gen Z men. Quit blaming everything on boomers, it starts to sound like whining after a while.
Well, when Boomers and Xers acknowledge their choices that led us here, I'll do that. Until then my point remains that the two generations that have been in power for the last 50 years have led us here, and it ain't millennials and Gen Z.
I didn’t vote for Reagan, Bush or Trump, nor did any of my friends , so I think you ought to reconsider when you blame an entire generation for all the world’s problems.
Me neither, and I am over 65.
As a Jew, I don’t have to contend with Trump supporters in my family, I’m stuck with Netanyahu supporters. In my eyes, they are guilty of knowingly supporting hate and genocide. I cannot extend them any grace because we’re related, in fact I feel the opposite. I’m ashamed that people who were raised alongside me could feel this way and I question the sincerity of their supposed commitment to pluralism and other liberal values with which we were raised. And after listening to them on Thanksgiving I didn’t bother showing up for Hanukkah.
And they used their free will not once, but TWICE to vote for an openly racist, misogynistic, mean spirited traitor. We all know the aphorism; “Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me”.
If they voted for him twice, they most likely voted for him three times.
Excellent point! I almost always forget about the election he lost, which is remarkable, given how traumatic January 6 was. Those voters are still accountable.
I’m sick of them all. I’m tired of fighting with one hand behind my back to keep peace. I find myself insisting on a “no politics” rule to keep me from tearing somebody a new one.
I was struck by Andrew’s piece. Not just the anecdotes about his relatives, but also the part where he mentions that he doesn’t understand the Strum and Drang this causes in other families. My friend, you’re a heterosexual white male. Of course it isn’t going to cause a lot of angst for you. This isn’t about identity politics, it’s the simple fact that the vast majority of Trump’s culture war battles will not affect you in a meaningful way. The reason why it causes strife in so many other families is that victims of such policies have to deal with advocates of the administration boasting in their faces.
Yeah, it's a bit different when you're part of the other half of the country that has lost significant control over medical decisions and bodily autonomy, and then you go to Christmas and have to deal with the relatives being anti-vaccine or anti-pasteurization because **they** need to control what goes into **their** bodies, while at the same time opposing half of standard medical practice for pregnant women.
THIS!!!
and they think gain of function is a brand new thing. And any miracle cure is
worth a shot. sorry, a lot of ' low on logic'. many are new to politics, or in the
past voted every now and then, just picked one quickly, Yeah, that one will do
and do not vote for their own state senators or school board referendums. go figure
Sure, straight white males are not at the top of the target list, but suggesting they are unaffected by the nightmare we're currently experiencing kind of assumes they're all unfeeling psychopaths. As Andrew points out, even Trump-supporting old white dudes can be worried about their sons and nephews being radicalized by Nick Fuentes. Andrew makes it clear that he's not keeping silent for the sake of peace but actually talking to his family about his work and views. I think the fact that the uncle brings his concern about Fuentes to Andrew is evidence that there's some real dialogue happening. If we want to cast it in terms of white male privilege, I'd say he's using his privilege for good.
100% agree. Also scares the hell out of me that they discuss their nephew being radicalized with all the detachment of watching a Netflix documentary. Then throw up their hands like ‘I dunno what to do about it’ like it was innocuous as getting a piercing he didn’t like or suddenly being into making craft beer.
THIS. I cannot deal with the moral relativism in treating pro-fascism, misogyny, bigotry, etc. as “just another lifestyle choice”. I broke ties with a friend from college who didn’t vote for Trump in 2024, but also didn’t vote for Harris, whom he called a “vapid pantsuit lady”. He was preening himself for his good judgement in not voting at all when I said that you find Harris to be equivalent to a grifting, lying, convicted felon shows me you no longer have any moral spine.
No, he just isn't into women who wear pantsuits. I wonder if it's the woman part or the pantsuit.
I very much doubt it's really about the wardrobe.
Both. For way too many men, women's parts should not be in pants (let alone having a post-high-school education, working, being a President, etc.). They should stay at home and make sandwiches.
That’s recent. But we have a decade of bullshit to look at and know that they are the least affected.
I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that waving away the conversations Andrew describes as irrelevant because he's in a somewhat protected demographic seems unfair. We're all in this together. Fascism comes for everyone eventually. Andrew gets that. He's obviously trying to help his family understand it, if only by staying in relationship with them and being honest about where he stands.
Fascism does come for everyone. These people were repeatedly warned and chose it anyway. Now, I’m supposed to throw my arms open and accept them before they have even shown contrition? No, I don’t think so.
Maybe contrition starts with "Have I been scammed?" or "Your cousin is starting to worry me" or "I'm seeing a lot more antisemitism."
I’m going to need much more than that to believe that these people are contrite.
No one has to do anything they don't want to do. I'd sure never ask a vulnerable person to make nice with relatives who condemn their very being. I wouldn't ask anybody to tolerate hateful bullshit. I certainly won't put up with it, nor will I tolerate it in my presence. If being with MAGA family is unbearable, then it's right and good to stay far away.
On the other hand, if I — a relatively privileged white woman who knows the MAGA demographic well — can engage with people and create some space for them to consider another perspective, why would I not do that? This idea that somebody needs to do a dance of contrition before I can deign to talk to them feels weirdly controlling to me. If their eyes are eventually opened in such a way that they feel regret, I'm glad for them, but their conscience is their business. I'm just trying to stay human.
It’s not asking for a dance for them to admit they were wrong. What you choose to do with the MAGA folks in your life is obviously your business, but this isn’t about talking to them. This is about sympathizing with them when the consequences of their actions come back to bite them in the ass. This is about who gets our grace and our acceptance. I’m more than willing to show grace and accept people who admit fault. Those who would go back and make the same decision in 2024 deserve neither from me. Lastly, acknowledging that straight white men are the least affected group and therefore he doesn’t see a great deal of strife isn’t ignoring that they are affected. It’s stating the fact that they are LEAST affected.
Exactly. And I'd bet a bundle they'd do it again.
Maria, I got goosebumps reading THAT…. At 89, and a young kid growing up in a housing project in Bayveiw Terrrace, CA (San Diego) and my Dad helping to design and make airplanes in one of the aircraft companies (1941-1949) and then moving to Ft. Worth, TX.. knowing NOTHING about ‘Jim Crow’, segregated schools, back of the bus…. And a very active LIBERAL mother (originally from Moosejaw, Sask., Canada) Voter for Harry Truman… I was reasonably aware… and then, quite shocked with Texas…. It was NOT outa the movies…. And I was a 13yr old wondering????
So, we are, and have been, and I hope, will continue to do ‘our own due diligence’ in whatever way we are able…..
Maria, unless I am missing something, I can't find where Andrew states that he tells them they are being taken advantage of. He wanted to tell his Grandma she wasn't being scammed, but he doesn't write what he did tell her.
In the case of the Uncle he doesn't state what they "discussed".
I nthink Andrewq is a good egg, but assigning acts to him that aren't in evidence.....
This, imo, is why we are we are, becasue people couldn't be really honest when it mattered.
I can see why Andrew didn't go into detail about the conversations — there's only so much space in the newsletter — but there's nothing in what he wrote that suggests he was less than honest with anyone. He notes that it's actually kind of hard to say whether his grandmother was scammed, strictly speaking, and he writes that he didn't quite know what to say to his uncle. I wouldn't either. I don't think anyone knows the answer to how to defeat these radicalizing influences.
I have to say that I feel like people have generally been pretty honest with their MAGA relatives over the past 10+ years. It's a big reason why so many families have ruptured. And I don't think those ruptures are necessarily bad. Often they are for the best. Some MAGA folks in my life, including some extended family, have cut ties with me over my lefty, anti-Trump politics. I'm fine with it. But if I can stay in relationship with someone and maintain my own beliefs and boundaries, I feel like it's better to do that than not. Anger and alienation are fascism's fuel. I don't want to feed that beast.
‘But if I can stay in relationship with someone and maintain my own beliefs and boundaries , I feel like it’s better to do that than not. Anger and alienation are fascism’s fuel. I don’t want to feed that beast.”
I have copied that to have and read when I am floundering…. And then I move on… Thank YOU!
That’s one big reason. Another is that many of us had it drilled into us as kids “if you just sit there letting other people say that kind of thing, then you’re no better than they are.”
Yeah imagine going $300,000 in debt to pay for medical education, going into public health, hearing family after family reject vaccines for their vulnerable kids, and constantly hearing that I'm not doing my job to prop up the Caucasian birth rate by both a branch of the "infotainment" media, but also the sitting VP.
My life choices are diametrically opposed to what MAGA values. Sure, I can go make small talk for a few hours...but what kind of real relationship can I have with people who think are opposed to education, opposed to public health, opposed to vaccines, opposed to me having a marriage where I'm in equal footing with a partner, think my job is "caring for illegals and parasites" and criticize my financial situation (solid middle class house, beater car, net worth still very much negative). Sorry for the rant, but I just can't relate to most of my relations.
On that note:
- The vast majority are nominally Christian so they don’t care if other religions are discriminated against.
- The vast majority are straight, so they don’t care if the LGBTQ+ community is discriminated against.
- The vast majority are citizens or legal immigrants, so they don’t care if illegals are expelled, even if they have been here for decades or were brought here as children.
The common thread in the above is that half of Americans are apparently selfish and don’t care about anyone other than themselves, their families, and their friends.
I’m a heterosexual white male, and it does cause strife in my family—indeed, it has caused strife from advocates of the administration boasting in my face.
One lovely relative crowed that I would be “fired” after Trump became my boss, way back in 2016. Needless to say, we haven’t spoken since.
I think Andrew avoids the strife because of the nature of his relationship with most of his family—Though he works for a “liberal” publication, they choose not to take that personally, and he reciprocates.
Even in my family, it varies from relative to relative. My uncle, a Republican last I checked, simply chooses to be philosophical about his Trumpism and its conflict with others in our family.
My stepdad, by contrast—whose first political conversation to me revolved around the notion that “Obama hates white people”—does not. 😕
I’m sorry, that sounds very frustrating.
Among much!, the feeling of actually having a ‘conversation’! With ‘US’ readers!!! Weird and wonderful! And the feeling that ‘we’ ARE! And…. however hard with members of family, ‘blood and chosen’. That you did and we do….
Andrew: "But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result."
Andrew's a far kinder man than me. Which, on some days, isn't hard to be. I've recently come to a horrifying realization: I want Trump exactly where he is for the next three years. Why? Because in my view, it is necessary for the people who voted for him to experience the full consequences of their choice. I would argue many of these voters made a corrupt bargain with Trump: they would overlook the moral turpitude, rank corruption and the authoritarianism in exchange for a "better economy". These voters willingly ignored Trump's 50+ year history of screwing people over when making that bargain, and in doing so brought shame and reputational damage to the United States that'll linger long over Trump shuffles off his mortal coil.
So, yes, "good people" will suffer over the next three years. But at the end of the day, people are responsible for their decisions, and the difference between me and the median MAGA is I understand that every decision has intended and unintended consequences. It is time, far past time, that the great and good American people learn this lesson the hard way. The worse, the better. No impeachment. No Twenty Fifth Amendment. None of that. I want uncut, pure, ultra-high octane Trump for the next three years. Give the voters what they voted for, cranked to 150 dB. And maybe, **just maybe**, the people who voted for him will realize that giving a narcissistic sociopath the nuclear codes isn't a great idea.
Tim, I think you may be a kinder person than I am. I still suspect that the people who say it’s all about the economy may mean it, but even though it isn’t nice to say they have longed for liberal tears. People who aren’t very nice suspect that nobody else is either. What I long to see is shame more than pain.
They won't learn. They'll try to learn, but their churches and other moral leaders will pull them back into the abyss. FOX will tell them exactly what to say. They are no longer citizens, they are consumers. As long as they can consume free content all day, they'll go along to get along.
Whether they learn or not is outside of my control. If getting rogered good and hard doesn't teach them a lesson, that's not my problem.
You are asking a lot. Fear was a big factor in Felon Trump’s rise. Right wing-nut media was alive and well long before he came along. Can’t tell how many articles I read articulated fear above everything. Charles Krauthammer wrote an article advising middle class people to beware that the lower classes were coming for them and what they have. Kinda forgot that it was the upper class manipulating them. If scaring the voters got us into this mess, will scaring them further get us out? I just read an article that predicts the MAGA element of the GOP to emerge stronger without Trump. Just what we need, The Tea Party on steroids. Don’t want to sugarcoat what the voters did. Just don’t know what solution will work. That’s what people should be debating; what will work. The one thing anybody should take from “The Scarlet Letter”, is that what the town did to Hester Pryme didn’t work.
The Tea Party was a rehearsal for MAGA.
correct, if something is not love it is fear. when it gets down to bare brass
that is all there is.
I have instincts in your direction; let them have it good and hard. But the suffering could possibly be world-ending. The door to slowing the impending climate disaster just closed in November 2024. Nuclear annihilation feels closer than when I was under my desk in third grade. This Trumpian turn is about much more than a devastating economy. It feels cataclysmic to me. To the MAGAs, it’s The Rapture. We get no choice in their religious cruise to Heaven.
You could be right. Hopefully our erstwhile allies in Europe keep their shit together long enough to prevent the worst case from happening.
Tim, any thoughts on what will be left after four years of unadulterated MAGA? I likely won’t be around, but I dread the kakistocracy left for my children and grandchildren. I have no solution but do have an immense sadness for the consequence.
Randall, I can only tell you what I believe will happen, and I could very well be wrong.
My view is the *short term best case scenario* is enough disgruntled voters pull the lever for Democrats in next year's midterm elections. If there's anything we've learned over the past ten years, it's the electorate is fickle and has no long term memory. I believe by June 2026 the economy will be in the crapper, crippled by tariffs and Trump's incoherent policies which will lead to higher inflation and higher unemployment. The GDP number released last week should not be trusted. If growth was that robust, then why is Trump so adamant about lowering interest rates?
Historically, the president's party gets punished in the midterms. Between now and then, I believe the GOP is going to tear itself apart. We're already seeing signs of that. And we're seeing signs of Trump's physical and mental deterioration. Coupled with an administration that is largely incompetent (save for guys like Russ Vought), we may buy ourselves a grace period from the overall fuckery and insanity for a couple of years with (hopefully) House Democrats using presently sclerotic Article I powers to push back on a rogue Executive Branch.
Long term, though, I think we're fucked, and that's because I don't trust many of our fellow citizens. The way I see it, if 1M+ deaths from COVID doesn't qualify as a big national security failure for 77M people, or an attempted insurrection isn't considered disqualifying, then that tells me the values and the soul of a plurality of the electorate is rotten. More to the point, our erstwhile allies know this, which is why they will no longer trust us to be what we were prior to the Trump era. They rightfully don't trust us, and as one foreign official noted, they can't make national security plans based on how Wisconsin votes every four years.
We don't have a Trump problem. We have a voter problem. Personally, Randall, I don't believe I have an obligation to care about the welfare of the 77M people who voted for this madness. I'm sure Andrew's family are nice people, but at the end of the day, they are responsible for their choices, just like me and you are responsible for ours. Anyone who has been paying attention for the past ten years understands Trump, but paying attention is a choice. So is not paying attention. Every decision has intended and unintended consequences. It's time for people to get that through their thick skulls.
It may be odd to say, but you appear to be more optimistic than I. Implicit in your bleak prediction is the hope that misery, chaos, and devastation will get something through the "thick skulls" of people who voted for Trump**. People seem to have lost the capacity to understand cause and effect. They can perceive effect, but there is always some fantasist to tell them a story that links effect to some purported cause that coincidentally supports their prejudices. I don't see any way out, because we have surrendered thinking to billionaires and their bots.
Remember my take is what I consider a best-case scenario. I think 2026 will be fraught with peril. I think more children will die from measles next year thanks to RFK Jr.. I think more Americans will be rounded up by ICE and throw into gulags without due process. And that's just for starters, Randall. The only reason these things will happen is because 77 million people, whether they want to admit it or not, voted for this. I hope I'm wrong. Maybe enough of the MAGAe -- not a huge number but enough to sway an election -- will finally see the light. But the damage has already been done, IMO, and one of the things we'll have to reckon with is how to punish the people who brought us to this moment.
I’m curious about that, too.
This 👆
And Democrats should not rescue people from their own bad choices.
Thank you.
I'm sorry Andrew, I vehemently disagree. Every person who voted for and continued to support Trump, despite years and years of evidence of his moral depravity, bears responsibility for what has happened to America. They all had a choice. And they chose to embrace cruelty, racism, and greed at every turn. No one with a shred of character or integrity could support Trump (especially post January 6.) But here we are. And now they will reap what they have sewn.
Right on, and they must reap. Otherwise we just rinse repeat and end up a fascist state.
I am here for everything Andrew said and all the comments in response. Including the critical ones.
This is probably the most personally salient topic for me of everything the bulwark covers. (Which obviously reflects my privilege.)
It is just really hard for me to keep my mouth shut around people who endorsed this. I want them to feel all the shame and embarrassment that I believe is warranted. I want them to know that I’m really struggling to let any of it go.
I’m tempted to tell them that I might never respect them the same again. That we don’t share nearly as many values as I thought. Or that their moral compasses are so fundamentally broken that I can barely comprehend it. Or perhaps all of these things.
So I really vacillate between (1) wanting to be honest about just how painful and hurtful this has been and (2) trying to muster the courage to “hold the door open” for any of them to change their minds.
And since I have small children and many younger nieces and nephews (and have for much of the past decade), I have mostly interacted with the kids during family gatherings rather than take either of those two paths.
This really resonates with me. My entire family is MAGA. They are fully aboard the Trump train and will tell you that any negative thing about what he or the admin is doing is either fake news, a witch hunt, or that Biden/Obama was 100 times worse. I hate their politics and at times I have hated them. They are also my family. So I spent Christmas Eve with them and had a great time and focused on the things that I do have in common with them.
But I also know that I will never reapect any of them again, nor will I feel particularly bad when the consequences of their votes eventually bite them.
I feel all of that, at least among the older folks in my extended family.
They don’t treat me poorly. I don’t treat them poorly. It’s not estrangement.
And yet it has taken a long time to process the grief associated with what the relationship used to be. I had so much respect and admiration for these folks.
It’s not so much because of Trump or MAGA. Rather it’s that Trump/MAGA revealed that what may have once seemed like small differences of opinion now seem like signs that we operate in almost entirely different moral universes.
I have certainly changed. I don’t dispute that. But I severely underestimated how much my own evolution would impact such relationships.
I began to diverge from my family, especially my mom during the Iraq War, when I vehemently disagreed with Bush's War on Terror and she was all in. I also moved to Chicago shortly after and have spent 20 years living in a world that my family truly does not even know exists, and which radically altered the politics of my 20s. I understand that I see the world differently then they do in large part because of where I live. But I also can see that my family has some deep seated beliefs and opinions that are not just uninformed but vile and reprehensible to me. And that is hard to reconcile.
Thank you for sharing! You’ve been at this a lot longer for me. But I totally resonate with the deep-seated opinions and beliefs, some of which touch on the vile and reprehensible (though most of my folks don’t come at that directly).
I was actually all-in on invading Iraq. That was a major point of agreement with me and my extended family in the early aughts, but that actually sowed the seeds for my deconstruction politically and theologically that ultimately spurred a lot of this friction within my family.
Boy, I can relate, Oct. 2001 when the war announcement arrived, I already
knew, but the siblings that were at the same table, in a bar/restaurant
only one of them reacted as I did. Others were a little jubilant.
Mark, your comments mirror my thoughts and family experiences during the MAGA times. As others have wrote here, this simmering hatred of Democrats, liberals, socialists, and other scapegoats is right in our faces now. Family relationships and gatherings are either a place to do battle or find a peaceful alternative. Backing off though does come with a cost: loss of respect for a loved one’s cult following of an obvious amoral, hateful felon.
I think you touched on something key here, John.
So many people that I love have been formed to see everyone on the left side of the political spectrum as bad or even evil.
They would say they have been discipled by Jesus. But in reality right wing media has been doing much of the heavy lifting in terms of shaping their view of humanity.
Old joke with numerous authors and versions, but now repurposed for this conversation:
A backpacker is traveling through the countryside when it starts to rain. He decides to wait out the storm in a nearby pub. The only other person at the bar is an older man staring at his drink. After a few moments of silence the man turns to the backpacker and says:
"You see this bar? I built this bar with my own bare hands. I cut down every tree and made the lumber myself. I toiled away through the wind and cold, but do they call me Greggor the bar builder? No."
He continued "Do you see that stone wall out there? I built that wall with my own bare hands. I found every stone and placed them just right through the rain and the mud, but do they call me Greggor the wall builder? No."
"Do ya see that pier out there on the lake? I built that pier with my own bare hands, driving each piling deep into ground so that it would last a lifetime. Do they call me Greggor the pier builder? No."
"But ya fuck one goat.."
(At least most of the "TRUMP!" flags have disappeared from this neighborhood. Shame and embarrassment indeed.)
I’m feeling a little guilty for enjoying my laughter so much!
lol 😺
" It’s clearer than ever to me that that damage is extensive and pervasive and will outlast him by years. But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Trump? One single man would be responsible for the fact that a neoliberal GOP turned into a neofascist one?
Not all the neocons who built Fox in order to spread fake news 24/7?
Not the Heritage Foundation and its theocratic Christian Nationalism?
Not the neofascist tech billionaires who finance SO many careers of neofascist Republicans these days?
Not Mike Johnson, who as GOP Speaker of the House, claimed that he sees it as the job of Congress to "codify" the executive orders signed by the president (and clearly NOT written by him, most of the time, nor his ideas), which is the exact opposite of what the US Constitution says?
Not Vance? Not Bondi? Not G.W. Bush,, who made GOP voters embrace lies at the highest level?
After all these years, you're only willing to blame the only guy who was never for real in the first place, namely Trump?
This country is truly lost.
Let's not forget Newt Gingrich, who because he was pissed off that Bill Clinton gave him a seat in the back of the Presidential plane returning from a trip to Israel, shut down the entire government! Now there's another petty, petty man for you.
Gingrich, contrary to Trump, was a real ideologue and one of the main GOP leaders who installed the habit of lying and betraying the GOP voter base and cultivating hatred.
So yes, Trump didn't invent any of it. It was carefully created, step by step, by many GOP "leaders", decade after decade.
Some men don’t like to be told “No”.
All those guys like Musk and Zuckerberg and Murdoch, truly blameless. We're ALL good people here, which is why we're doing so damn well.
"But I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Amen. The "leopards/faces" trope is forbidden at my table. These are good folks for the most part, salt of the earth: and they're not the first good folks in history to have been desperate enough to fall for a slick line of patter by a snake-oil salesman.
They are good people who despite knowing everything we knew about Trump even in 2016, pulled the lever for him multiple times? Sorry, you don’t get to walk away from the consequences of your choices.
You're assuming they knew "everything we knew about Trump even in 2016."
People who spend a lot of time following politics simply fail to understand how many people DON'T spend a lot of time following politics, don't go deep into the weeds, don't perceive or understand or parse every intonation and nuance.
While you're scanning the latest news reports for more evidence of outrageous lies and cruelties and assaults on democratic norms, they're living their lives, only hearing vague generic references to cutting crime, cutting prices, making us safe. They're not hearing those ugly nuances and embracing them.
Right, but they still have to answer for their choices in 2020 and 2024. I am sorry, but if you are going to vote for the guy who incited an insurrection, I’m not going to shed tears when the appetites of the crazies turn to you.
None of Trump’s evil was hidden. None.
My neice , who is a federal employee freely admits she voted for him, 3 times
because she loved the TV show, the apprentice - and * HE * is so smart.
now this person has a high emotional IQ and a masters degree, age 52.
She drives through a town, notices a broken piece of curbing or some litter
and says, its because of all those immigrants. I spend no time with her at this
point, only nod when she says Hello, I fear the relationship will never return, truly.
She’s maybe a rare Federal Employee, who did NOT get capriciously Fired by DOGE… neither is she in a dept. where a lot of her co-workers were fired, such that “in the name of Efficiency” she now has to get 1 & 1/2 as many files dealt with, for the same pay.
I agree that we "don't get to walk away from the consequences of" our choices. However you are incorrect that these "good people" knew everything we knew about Trump. The fact is, they didn't. The fact is, they still don't.
Why? Because they literally sit in a bubble of disinformation and don't know how to break out. I know. I watch what they watch on a daily basis. I read what they read on a daily basis. I talk with them on a daily basis. Should they know better? Absolutely.
I should have known better when I voted for Trump in 2016. Granted, I disliked Hillary to no end and was burned out by the liberal "say his name" in-your-face (literally) approach to everything - in fact for my circle of Trump-supporting family and friends, this is #1 on why they flocked to anyone but a liberal (just happened to be Trump at the time) in 2016 - even my independent mother who has voted both Republican and Democrat.
For me personally, I voted for Trump in 2016 to punish the shit-brained Republican party for even allowing Trump to make it to the General Election.
Well obviously that was short-sighted and a mistake on my part.
How did I break out of that bubble? I started caring about politics beyond the "table issues" for the first time in my life. I stopped watching Fox as my main source of info. I read a crap-load of books by liberals, by hard-line conservatives, by pro-Trumpers, by anti-Trump conservatives. I joined Twitter and escaped Facebook. I did the hard work to educate myself. I watched over 20 hours of Jan 6th footage - I read deep dives about it from the likes of Seth Abramson and countless independent journallists. I plugged into The Bulwark, followed Ms. Cheney and Mr. Kinsinger. Researched the people surrounding Trump - not just Trump himself.
Most of these "good people" don't do this and never will. They will come to this slowly, like Egger's family, like my family. One thing I do know: if we approach their "education" the same way the far-left "say his name" liberals did, they will shut down hard.
So yeah, they should have known better and absolutely are responsible for their choices - whether educated or not, but it is inaccurate to say they "knew what we knew"
(I speak individually, not collectively because i know some actually do know better but still vote to support it - these are the hardcore MAGA's for the most part)
Listen man, I think it’s fair to say that all of these people didn’t know EVERYTHING about Trump the way we, as readers of the Bulwark, do. But in 2024, they ALL knew he was the reason for Jan 6. There is literally NO WAY to not know. And I’m sorry, but if you’re going to vote for a guy who attempted to overturn an election using a mob, you can’t be too surprised when the mob eventually goes after someone else because the dear leader is displeased.
I get it and agree, to a point. For me, though, it's not schadenfreude I am feeling. Rather it's disappointment and worry for the country and our self-government. I listened this weekend to the first part of Sarah's Focus Group replays with Anne Applebaum, where Ms. Applebaum talked about the need for an informed citizenry to fight autocracy. We've recently seen the clip from The American President where he talks about 'Democracy being hard' and 'advanced citizenry.
So yes, I certainly have empathy for people getting overrun with fund-raising messages, some of which are scams. And I understand humans are prone to snake-oil salesmen. But, when they've voted for this three times as I assume Andrew's family has, I'm afraid we can at least say that they fall into the "some of the people all of the time' group" and I'm afraid I'm out of empathy.
Our problem with MAGA is here to stay, because we tolerate a massive propaganda media network, in the name of filthy profit. Everything in the U.S. is profit based, even prisons.
I really am questioning this. My elderly uncle, not understanding that the coordinated sites he is reposting on FB, spews very clear toxic falsehoods with vehement anti Muslim rhetoric, easily debunkable claims about Obama, Biden & most Dems, and fabrications about any policy ever enacted by a Dem. My uncle fails to realize that he is the tool used to dramatically increase talking points of folks who will benefit at my uncle’s expense. But my uncle can READ the vile screeds he is reposting - what is he even thinking, what is my cousin who champions his “shares” thinking?
He's a good person (deep down) who behaves immorally.
Who we are and how we behave are two different things.
How we behave has to do with ethical education, not merely cognitive education.
Today, the GOP is installing neofascism in the US. That has been decades in the making.
Fascism always needs to brainwash an important minority of a country into hating The Other, if it wants to have SOME support among "we the people".
It's why historians have shown that it can only be installed in societies that already suffer from a "spiritual" crisis (a crisis in understanding how to lead a meaningful life, based on moral values, whether religious or not). In the US, most forms of Protestant Christianity have become entirely hollowed out. At best, their morality comes down to merely judging everyone. Very often, however, they are war machines cultivating hatred and anger 24/7.
The left, unfortunately, responded to this (and the rise of social media, as Jonathan Haidt explains in "The Coddling of the American Mind") by inventing "DEI trainings" and "safe spaces"... inside school campuses, which stiffened real debates and REAL ethical training even more.
Today, the GOP's Heritage Foundation ordered Trump to use those DEI training facilities (as an op-ed in the NYT today also shows) to impose even more censorship.
The problem is at the level of society, I'm afraid. And it was definitely created by GOP neoliberalism which, after all, already claimed from the very beginning that "democracy and capitalism are incompatible".
Neoliberalism was invented to destroy the New Deal. At first, some of its founders still believed in democracy, but from the beginning, they confounded "regulated capitalism" and "dictatorship". Today, 80 years later, their takeover of the GOP is complete, and fascism is being installed in the US. All done by mostly well-intentioned but morally quite illiterate people...
A quibble with the last part of your comment. I would say that the current GOP is not at all controlled by neoliberals, but by their opposites.
Neoliberals like free markets, free trade, and globalization, for example. The current GOP hates it. Trump's protectionist instincts and conviction that tariffs are the ultimate economic cheat code are not remotely neoliberal. His centrally managed economy approach to things, where business deals and trade deals all go through the president (if you bribe him enough), is a completely different economic approach.
There are people here who are repeating every awful thing they've ever heard about Trump voters; allowing for no possibility of decency or redemption, insisting that THEY are all vile bigots and racists and awful people who are fully on board with every evil aspect of Trumpism, and that no kind words may be spoken about them; while WE are virtuous and good and sanctified and all fine things.
These days most of us live in a bubble, an US versus THEM bubble. It's cozy in our bubbles, but it doesn't do the country any good for us to stay there.
It’s not things they have heard about Trump voters. It’s the things Trump has said he wants to do and these people willingly cast their ballots for him. Apparently now, I’m just surrounded by children who are no longer responsible for their actions and choices. I should just coddle them as they endlessly make the pro active choice to make the lives of their fellow citizens miserable.
“It's cozy in our bubbles, but it doesn't do the country any good for us to stay there.”
How about replacing the word “us”with “them?” Why is it always liberals and urbanites that are supposed to “reach out“ to the others but not vice versa?
This is an older piece (https://popular.info/p/a-far-right-website-created-36-days) but it is these coordinated sites which my uncle reposts, literally every day. The Fb algorithms ensure that he sees only more of these sites. No one is saying that my uncle at baseline is not a decent person, but he advocates toxic policies & actively amplifies the sites he is served. Finally, his church enthusiastically hosted book burning advocate and election denying Pastor Greg Locke (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/03/31/tennessee-pastor-extremist-politics/) so I expect that my uncle is not really hearing tons of viewpoints in his little rural Indiana town.
I am so happy that my browsing tricks the algorithms to feed me Lord of the Rings memes, Lego ads and how to lose weight after menopause tricks instead of politics on either side. It IS possible to have a nice FB experience despite Zuck's BS. Of course that also involved me hiding some of the worst of my MAGA family.
willoughby, a few hours ago I replied to your original post and while I liked what you and Andrew said, I disagreed with you. Now, a few hours later, I am reading all sorts of replies coming from all sorts of different places and wow, just wow. You made me think today, and obviously, you did the same to many others and for that I thank you and am very happy that we are on the same side, even though we do not agree on every individual plank. Thank you and happy new year to you and your family.
I hope that people might develop some awareness of how/why they have been susceptible to Trump's con game.
What part of their experience caused them to accept Trump's relentless blaming of "others"-people of color, affirmative action, immigrants as the cause of their economic or social woes?
It wasn’t Trump convincing them. I am a firm believer that people will latch on to whatever political party, or politician, that conforms to their world view. My parents were bigots, as are my husband’s parents. They tried to raise bigots. My parents failed with me. My husband is having a hard time believing his parents are bigots. It doesn’t conform to his world view.
Some of Trump's vocal supporters are highly educated and not stupid at all. They were not duped into supporting him. They decided that his worldview and objectives align with theirs.
Exactly. Why would Trump have to convince people to be bigots? Their parents and churches convinced them long ago.
I know someone who claims to dislike Trump because "he's immoral," but he thinks Democrats are always worse because they're "socialists" and they encourage immorality and they kill babies and they give free stuff to illegals. He gets very angry if I say anything to suggest that this administration's policies are harmful and its actions are unethical.
I think the anger is partly over having to face the evidence that the "conservative" party may not be the moral one after all. But he loves the mass deportation - even if it sweeps up people here lawfully, including a veteran with two Purple Hearts. When I mentioned that story, I initially saw a bit of sympathy for a fellow combat veteran, until this guy realized that I was criticizing the Trump administration. And then the rage started up.
Sometimes I wonder what would happen if I asked such a person to "persuade me." I don't see those relatives often enough to try it, but my suspeicion is that we'd get two layers down - "what constitutes socialism" - and then there'd be a meltdown.
I know a rabid Trump supporter who insists that Democrats have never fairly won an election, ever. Every election ever won by a Democrat was rigged. Only Republican victories are legitimate. I didn't ask her how she knows this, or why, if the Democrats are so unpopular yet are so good at rigging elections, they don't just steal every election. She just firmly believes she is right. This is in addition to believing that Democrats are immoral socialist baby killers hellbent on destroying America.
I'm not sure how anyone gets this extreme (I suspect this particular person is mentally unstable, if not mentally ill), but decades of scorched earth right wing propaganda demonizing Democrats and "the left" as evil subhuman fiends has done its work.
To be fair, in this comment thread I sometimes see comments basically saying that the whole Republican Party has always been built entirely on greed, bigotry and ignorance.
Sure, there's no shortage of disparaging comments on either side. But by right wing propaganda, I'm talking about the right wing media machine, which really kicked into high gear in the 90's with Rush Limbaugh (and his imitators) and Fox "News" (also joined by many imitators). Their message of demonizing Democrats and "the left" was systematic and cohesive, and wildly profitable. There's nothing close to that level of cohesion and profitability in left wing media.
This advice to understand the other side is a one-way admonition, repeated with depressing and predictable regularity in the “liberal” media. I guarantee it’s not an issue in right wing media.
ALL human beings are, deep down, "good people". They all want to be happy and suffer less, they all, in their own way, care about their loved ones and country.
That's not the issue here.
What is happening today is the work of a neofascist GOP. As Kamala Harris said, this has been DECADES in the making, and NOT by Trump. Trump is merely their clown in chief, distracting us all from the real debates we should be having.
Not sure that “all” people are good deep down. Psychopaths exist. Trump is one, IMHO.
I recently commented to a truly religious friend, “This isn’t politics anymore; we are face-to-face with evil”. It has to be said, because the stakes are very high.
I agree , we have to state it out loud. Even when it is uncomfortable.
My sis was in a store, and I saw her cart loaded with baby supplies, she is
a grandmother, we spoke about prices and a recent grant given that we
both were not in favor of. It benefits the wealthy, so anyway, I said something it seemed a bit unfair, she said , Yeah they give everything to the ' blacks'
without really hearing her, I quickly said, " they don't get THAT much"
Then, I had to say see you later, no hug. The baby materials were for a granddaughter whose partner, I believe is not a legal citizen, he is brown,
I've never met him. My sis once dated a person who happened to be ' black'
what is the deal, plain and simple, they are in love w/trump. I also could tell
all of a sudden her purse/wallet is being strained, after two decades of no
problems with money in her life, hmmm. I miss my sister, she is in there
somewhere. [ luckily for me, I had nine sisters, now down to seven ]
Is psychopathy a conscious, volitional choice?
No, some people may just be born with it. But that doesn’t mean that there is a “good person underneath.”
This is a GREAT observation.
Willoughby, the way we find out who are good folks is to watch what they do from this point forward. Yes they have been blinded by the scammers, but will their pride and tribal loyalties allow them to admit they have been duped. My guess is that the position taken by the religious leadership and by local politicians will be crucial.
Didn't some wise pundit say that people who have been conned - whether it's by a religious group or a political group, are very hard to convince they've been conned, because it's harder to believe that you were conned than it is to admit to being conned. Nobody wants to think they were stupid.
There's an old saying (often incorrectly attributed to Mark Twain) that “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”
It becomes particularly difficult to open up people to a new way of thinking or to persuade them to examine their own assumptions if you're so committed to punishing them, to expressing your contempt for their delusion, to attributing the worst possible motives to them, that you cannot allow for the possibility of redemption.
KMD, you just said it you must be very wise. Of course it’s really about not wanting to give up power for this sort of person. They will wiggle and pivot, cast blame everywhere and still can’t admit anything unless it is a path to a new share of power.
Appreciate the goodwill at the heart of yours and Andrew's view on this. It says something positive about both you. But I can't stand that rationalization and couldn't disagree more. 100% of the people who voted for Trump did so with clear eyes regarding what they were signing on for. They thought he'd only hurt people they hate but not them. Their regret only comes to pass when they feel the harm in their own lives. Excusing them of that accountability just infantilizes them. They may not be evil down to their soul. But they definitely deserve to feel the pain that comes with the consequences of their actions. There are millions of people who didn't make that choice that are feeling even more pain and are much more worthy of our empathy.
I want to feel like this but I am angry. Angry at people who hear Trump and believe him. Angry too at Fox News et al .... Tired of exaggerated Patriotism. Tired of all of them.
It isn't exaggerated patriotism. It's xenophobia and racism.
Whatever it is, I am not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Oh, Fox News definitely has a lot to answer for!! As I've posted before, the only couple we are friends with who are Trumpers have Fox News on from the time they get up in the morning, until the time they go to bed at night.! They are well meaning folks who are just comfortable in their fact free universe, I guess. We avoid political discussions with them at all costs!
How can you still be friends? Hats off to you, I guess. I couldn’t abide that.
They firmly believe that only Fox tells the truth. All other media are “arms of the Democratic Party.”
I know one couple who are Trumpers. They are wonderful people. I give up.
“Patriotism” and “Christianity” are now tools of oppression and legitimizing violence.
Hoo boy, not the "salt of the earth" trope again. Most Trump supporters are well-off older white people who live in small towns and suburbs. They're not Dust Belt farmers.
loveAndrew and willoughby, you make an excellent point, and it is most likely the correct one, and yet. These good people have agency. They really can say no to the snake oil but have simply refused to do so, and with each passing day it will become harder and harder to walk away. When their own miserable logical conclusions come, it will indeed be what they voted for, and our job will be to help those we love pick up the pieces.
Why are they so desperate? I don't get it. Angry White males are doing better than anyone while they yell about why we should have no rights. Why are they desperate and we have to be their doormats, always and forever, world without end?
Perhaps because these angry white men choose to watch Fox News, listen to Joe Rogan, Alex Jones and other charlatans who prosper by promoting conspiracies and lies.
I need proof that they are "good folks for the most part." Because their votes say otherwise.
BS.. sorry the majority of Trump supporters I know aren’t innocence. The revil in the cruelty and are constantly pissed off about one thing or another…
I tend to sympathize with Sarah on this point. I think lots of people are, willfully or naturally, ignorant about their electoral choices and they are going to need to experience pain in order to consider a change; unfortunately a lot of innocents will also feel that pain. So i prefer targeted pain that can change voting behavior while avoiding the most catastrophic kinds of pain, especially that accruing to non-Trumpies and the most vulnerable.
I admit to feeling a touch of schadenfreude myself because it seems to me simply human satisfaction at seeing those who have visited injustice on others have some of it blow back onto them. Justice vindicated. And the Bible is full of cries for justice. I just try not to let it mutate into a desire to inflict revenge.
"...desperate enough to fall for a slick line of patter.."
But why are they desperate? This is what I don't get. The world is changing and they're frightened? Isn't the world always changing? I'm in my 70s for crissakes, and I'm not frightened.
Or am I missing something here?
six months ago I was in an argument with a MAGA brother in law. It started as a seated conversation and then turned to raised voices and then he even stood up and got even more voicterous screaming actually. I don't treat him the same as before. It's the women's rights, human rights, limits on other abled people issues I can't get past but more so his reaction to my opinions.
He probably (at least subconsciously) felt like you were attacking his very identity, the core beliefs that make him who he is. Lashing out at you is not surprising in that circumstance, but not excusable, and you are smart to avoid him or at least avoid any conversation that might incur his wrath again.
I believe so as well. I also think he hasn't had many challenge his beliefs before.
Why wouldn't many challenge his beliefs? He sounds so easygoing and pleasant to be around. /s
I don’t have any MAGA family members, and manage to avoid them out in the wild. So I read accounts like yours, and Andrew’s piece today with fascination. I honestly think I would avoid family gatherings if it entailed sharing food with MAGAs. But since I don’t have to make that choice, it’s unfair of me. Which explains my fascination. I am definitely in the minority; judging from my media consumption most people wrestle with this conundrum.
I envy you. Our little summery family gathering this year was quiet. I would say
over HALF voted for that _ss. But, that included nieces , nephews and in laws
from Nebraska, and they've never voted previously. My Dad, if he was still living
would've skipped the picnic, I'm sure. Next summer I'll most likely skip. I envy you.
There is of course a line between Mr, Egger’s grandmother and MTG. You can call it naïveté if you want, but yes, your grandmother has been taken in, and it is not just the unwanted solicitation for donations. As MTG has realized the loyalty and might I add the money flows only one way. At some point people have to understand they’ve been taken for a ride and the end point was never going to be a good one. Until people get to that point and start, like MTG, making their calculations based on those realizations, nothing will change. Good people can make bad decisions that harm them, but they have to learn from those decisions. As much as I may not like or trust MTG, she is demonstrating a capacity to learn which is more than can be said for much of MAGA and even *moderate* GOP left in the Party.
If your cousin is noticing an uptick in antisemitism, I can pretty much guarantee that is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the underlying racism: I wouldn’t want to hear what these people havre say about African Americans or Hispanics.
Yep. She's in that age range where all her right-leaning male classmates are inundating themselves with man-o-sphere swill and edge lord social media and podcasts. This is the future of the Republican Party. The next generation will drop the elephant for a Pepe the Frog.
She’s a bit older than those troglodytes so has more memories of a different era. If you look at her life, she doesn’t seem to stick with anything for very long. If those guys are the future of the Republican Party, hie many women are going to stick around to find out how things turn out?
I still don’t trust MTG’s “conversion”. She broadcasts her “Christianity” a bit too much. And she is a known attention seeker. I hope to be proven wrong.
Oh she’s an attention whore alright. I don’t really trust her, and she seems to flight from thing to thing. But she is capable of self reflection on some level which is more than can be said for most of MAGA.
Completely Agree!
"The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him." Whether you meant "moment" or "movement" the result is the same.
"He" is as much to blame for their falling for his gobbledegook messaging as the attendees of PT Barnum's Circus were, who were there because PT knew that there was one born every minute. "He" was never anything but a Snake Oil Salesman who knew how to spin a yarn that would catch anyone gullible enough to listen to him promise to "take on the system" and "tell it like (he wants them to believe) it is".
I am not trying to "shame" or "blame" the victims, but at some point you need to open your eyes and watch out for yourself. Admittedly, for some, perhaps many, that point comes too late. But, ultimately, it was their choice to do what they did, perhaps by not looking at the fine print, perhaps because it all sounded so good, perhaps because they never expected "Him" to be like that, although his entire history leads to no other conclusion.
Responsibility for one's actions, what a concept!
Not part of the MAGA creed to be sure. Blame someone else is the name of the game.
Funny it used to be a conservative creed. Just like pulling yourself up by bootstraps, small government, free markets. As George Conway said; Republicans who once hated big government interference are now getting that in spades!
Dave, get over it; there are neither "conservatives" nor "Republicans" worthy of the name any more. They are either MAGAts or castaways in the wilderness by wish of the Felon, e.g., MTG, or E. Stefanik.
I am fully aware that the old labels no longer apply today. There are a few conservatives who remain true to their ideals. Bill Kristol, Charlie Sykes are among that few. For a long time I refer to the former Republican Party as MAGA/ Republicans.
Sorry. friend, but in my book it is the one or the other; together, they do not mix.
My 86 year old Dad bought a horrible Trump watch, it looks like the cheap arm weight it is. Why won't you wear your classy Citizen watch I ask, it's not as shiny he says. I want to cry.
Obviously, Andrew isn't confronted by truly horrible people in his family, like the young neo Nazis he describes. Some of us aren't so lucky. Our feelings are more complicated and severing relationships does makes sense. Sorry, I'm not feeling sorry for terrible people, family or not.
In addition, none of the examples Andrew shared are suffering any consequences whatsoever, including economic problems that trump's orders (the guy simply doesn't have 'policies') are causing some of the poorer people in this country. I don't doubt for one second that all of those people would vote for trump a fourth time if given the chance, based just on the information here.
Hey Andrew! Having lived in Cedar Rapids for my formative years, I am always amazed how Iowa is sometimes a weird connective tissue to all sorts of stuff. Especially since none of my current social circle can tell the difference between Idaho, Iowa, and Ohio.
I tend to agree with you, a lot of my sympathy is religious or spiritual. We need to practice compassion, it's a skill, a muscle, and it needs training and exercise. Part of what made Christ's message so radical was that he admonished his followers to love even our enemies. If we are thinking about Christmas, we ought to be thinking about how we go about loving folks in Trumpland who are in the FO part of FAFO.
Also, there's an extremely cynical political reason to not just gloat over folks in Trumpland getting a comeuppance for voting for Trump, and that's that you need a good number of these people to vote for Democrats in 2026 and beyond. It's a lot easier to get votes from people by treating them as human beings worthy of respect.
I agree in theory, but does MAGA really want Christian love and kindness? Those are the emotions they need, but do they understand that. If anything Trump/MAGA had brought to light the radical Rambofication of American Christianity which started without Trump, but has accelerated with his rise to power. I am unlikely to agree with MTG’s view of Christianity, but she does seem to believe it is more than ‘Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war’. This is the part I struggle with as much of MAGA appears to be built on rejection not acceptance. For there to be some sort of *healing* or moving past MAGA, there will have to be some acceptance from their side.
As for the 3 states you mention, I hold out much more hope for Iowa, and then Ohio before Idaho. Northern Idaho is beautiful country, but it was home to the Neo-Nazis before they started to go mainstream.
Agree on the states! I mention them mostly because now, living on the east coast, I routinely meet people who have no knowledge which state is which. They are very different in many ways, including as pickup prospects for Democrats.
For love of enemies, I'd think this is less about what they need and more about what we need. We don't need to agree with them, or coddle them, per se. We need only to maintain compassion for them. I personally don't believe in the death penalty, for example. That doesn't mean I think that those convicted of an otherwise capital offense should be unaccountable for their crimes. Just that they don't ever stop being human beings of equal moral worth or less worthy of our compassionate concern, regardless of what they did in the eyes of society or the law to deserve punishment. So, someone can both (1) deserve punishment and (2) still require our compassion. At least, in a certain religious/spiritual/philosophical worldview.
For the pragmatic and calculated move of welcoming Trumpists back into the fold without requiring flagellation beforehand, that's way less about what anyone needs or deserves, and more about getting more votes in competitive places as a matter of pure political mechanics. Do they *need* to come to some acceptance on their side to pull the lever for a Democrat in 2026 or 2028 or 2030? I'd like to see it, you'd like to see it, but all that needs to happen in reality is for them to fill in the correct bubble. Even if they do that for deeply unsatisfying reasons, that'll still get the blue team closer to 60 votes in the Senate.
I agree with you on the death penalty. I don’t know how many will vote Democratic, but I will take splitting votes and a crack up of MAGA. Those who will vote for Democratic candidates, and I hope they will, are those whose life journey allows for growth.
Idaho has been pretty out there for a long time, I learned that on my first trip
to that gorgeous state. 1981. I think old Aryan nation in parts of it, not all.
The Aryan Nation owned property on Hayden lake North of Coeur d’Alene — I know this because my sister worked at a summer camp on said lake back in the late 90’s. In the early 2000’s they lost a lawsuit involving their security guards assaulting people which bankrupted them and subsequently had to sell off the property. On the other hand, the summer camp still exists and my stepbrother and his family frequently go there.
Kotzsu, I can relate to your experience. I grew up in tiny communities adjacent to CR (Hiawatha, Covington) and graduated from JHS. After college, I went to grad school in Pasadena, CA, and was surrounded by people who were only vaguely aware that Iowa was an actual place. A couple of times, when I replied "Iowa" to a question about my origin, they responded "Idaho?" apparently thinking I must have misspoken. My wife of nearly 5 decades still can't keep straight the difference between a Hawkeye and a Buckeye, let alone the fact that I lean Cyclone. Since I left Iowa, I've lived in Los Angeles, Chicago, and New Mexico. These places really are completely different worlds from where I was born.
I tend to think that Christ's message might be a key, but I don't know how you break through. All of those people sitting in church on Sunday obviously don't spend much time trying to internalize Christ's teachings. They think just parking their butts in the pews makes them good people, nothing more required.
“Compassion” for evil just doesn’t sit well with me.
I have friends and family who have been and continue to be conned by Trump and the grift regime and I too might call them "good people." Fact is, every con plays to the larceny in the heart of the victim. These people straight up have some repenting to do. I'll do my best to help them see how they've been victimized and who the real target of their anger should be but the rest is up to them.
Good luck!
“Help them see”? You’re probably familiar with Sisyphus from Greek mythology?
I get you JF. I think it's important to be generous to those you care about even if you're bound to fail. These people are friends and family. At the same time, there's no need to let them hurt you.
It’s a moral dilemma for me to imagine, because thankfully I don’t have any close relationships who are MAGA. I still reckon with it in my mind, because moral dilemmas fascinate me. I do know it’s a line I will not cross with new acquaintances; if I learn they are MAGA that’s the end of any contact. And I’m not alone; apparently young MAGA males cannot find women to date.
"I can’t abide by the schadenfreude-laden viewpoint that anyone who ever pulled a lever for Trump deserves whatever’s coming to them as a result. The fact is that this political moment is immiserating good people. I don’t blame them for that. I blame him."
Here's the problem. How many of these people would vote for Trump again? They never learn. And the good people this political moment is immiserating are the people who didn't vote for this shit, too, and they're getting screwed because of the "good people" who did vote for him because they refuse to trust anything besides the liars inside their bubble. My better angels are all dead; this grifting fraud has been here for over ten years, he's a felon, a known grifter (Trump Foundation? Trump University?), and he incited an insurrection at the Capitol to overturn an election he lost.
Good people died during the pandemic due to Trump's bungling, and yet Republicans voted for him again! How many lessons can life try to teach people? It's getting awfully repetitive and yet the needle isn't moving.
“My better angels are all dead”. I’m going to borrow that.
Well-articulated as usual, Andrew. Boy, do I see this on a daily basis in my small town. I don't hate these people, but I do vehemently disagree with them. Most I've known all my life -- they aren't bad people, at all, in fact they are mostly terrific souls.They bought the BS, hook, line, and sinker, and don't know what to make of it now. They are getting quieter by the day because their lives have not improved at all, in fact, it is going the other way. Pity is my overwhelming emotion for many of them, not anger.