Re: "And as the American Enterprise Institute’s Stan Veuger points out, “shaped but not burdened by” shouldn’t be too complex a notion for some to grasp."
Well, okay, but there ARE sophisticated people out there who can't grasp this. Bakari Sellers was talking to Tim the other day and posited that Joe Biden would never step aside for Harr…
Re: "And as the American Enterprise Institute’s Stan Veuger points out, “shaped but not burdened by” shouldn’t be too complex a notion for some to grasp."
Well, okay, but there ARE sophisticated people out there who can't grasp this. Bakari Sellers was talking to Tim the other day and posited that Joe Biden would never step aside for Harris because "never in the history of history," to paraphrase, "had a White man given up anything of value to a Black woman."
He is both shaped by and burdened by his worldview. It's all nonsense, of course, but when you're swimming in nonsense and have been for your whole adult life, you can't see it. What happens to the Sellers now? Now that what he believes has never happened in the history of history has happened right in front of his face? I don't know. I hope it wakes him and others like him up because, if he can chuck the nonsense, we can have a great future. If he can't, we won't.
(And, as an aside, the whole premise of his view is wrong. In the corporate world, White men turn over responsibility for very important projects, positions and companies to Black women all the time and no one says anything about it. Same thing in academia. And the media. So where he gets his information -- never in the history of history -- baffles me. It might not happen enough for his tastes, but it is untrue that it has never happened.)
The last time it happened in American politics, please.
It’s not nonsense. One of the reasons Sellers may be imprisoned by his past experiences is that white men don’t give up political power — GIVE UP, not lose elections — to Black women. To a lot of people, what Joe Biden did on Sunday was extraordinary. It shouldn’t be, as you imply. But it is, and that’s one reason people are so energized. Change seems possible.
Well, okay, but White men don't give up power to other White men, either. Did George H.W. Bush say, "Y'know, I like the cut of that Bill Clinton's jib. Why don't we just call it a day and save a bunch of time and money? Bill, give my Chief of Staff a call. I'll show you around. We can have this all wrapped up by next week."
No, a President resigning is unusual. But that’s not how you characterized your paraphrase of Sellers. You are arguing that what men give up all kinds of power to Black women all the time, and while it’s surely more common than it used to be, a white American President dropping out of a race confident his VP, a Black woman, could win it, is unusual. In this country, with our history, as one party has worked awfully hard over the last decade to remove political power from Black people via gerrymandering, yes, it’s unusual.
Never said it was "usual." It isn't, of course. But what Bakari Sellers said, "never in the history of history," is wrong, unless you narrow it down to Presidential politics. If THAT'S the dataset, then, he's right. There is no case in American history where a sitting American President has given up the office to a Black woman. But I don't think that's what Sellers meant.
I’m pretty sure he did mean politics specifically. Though I don’t think there are *all* that many examples in business or academia either - especially when the person who was being handed the power wasn’t especially popular and had many vulnerabilities. If you want to provide specific examples, I’d love to hear them.
I think there’s a very good reason it took Biden so long to give up power. There might have been an element of ego to be sure (though from the way some pundits, politicians and donors were treating him, I think some of the indignation was deserved). However, I think the biggest hurdle keeping him from stepping aside was uncertainty that Harris would perform all that much better than him. I don’t think that’s because he’s racist or misogynistic but because he knows that a decent percentage of the electorate is.
That Biden still chose to publicly express his support for Harris, despite these lingering concerns and calls for a more “democratic process” via an open convention by many people in the pundit/donor/political establishment class, speaks volumes about his character, judgment and commitment to doing the right thing even when it’s difficult or unpopular.
Sellars was not wrong. He was just underestimating Biden like everyone has always done his entire life.
Sellers wasn't just talking about Joe Biden. "Never in the history of history" covers a lot of ground. I find this argument objectionable because it's cynical and dismissive of a lot of things that have happened "in the history of history."
I listened to these same arguments back when Barack Obama started his first run. No way White people would ever nominate a Black man for President! No way White people would ever vote for a Black man for President! No way Iowa voters -- because they're so White -- would ever choose a Black man to win the Iowa Caucuses! And on and on and on and on. It was all nonsense. All of those things happened and we don't have to go back to the Seleucid Empire to find that example.
Those arguments -- and Sellers' -- were predicated on the belief that America -- specifically White America -- was so racist that they would never do these things that they actually did. It rejected the notion that Americans -- writ large -- could evaluate a slate of candidates and choose the best one, regardless of that person's skin color. John McCain was a great man, a patriot, a hero, a qualified candidate. Barack Obama wasn't campaigning against some no-name dope, some Average White Man who, because of all his inherent privilege, just got what he wanted without working for it. And Barack Obama, because he worked hard, campaigned well, put together a great team and had a compelling message, beat him soundly, fair and square. There were no riots. John McCain didn't refuse to accept the results of the election. He conceded. Graciously. And he wished Obama well.
The whole notion that power is "given" to anyone strikes me as nonsensical too. Power is gained. It's earned. Sometimes it's seized. We've only had one President resign -- give up power -- and that was because he was going to be impeached and convicted in the Senate. He didn't want to do it. He was compelled to do it.
I suppose I've already written too many words about a nonsensical argument made by a guy on a podcast, but it really did strike me as the kind of argument that begged for some kind of response.
Joe Biden, after decades in politics, consented to be the vice president to a younger black man who hadn't even finished a full senate term. He agreed to be a subordinate, with a quiet (and limited), secondary role, under a black man holding the most powerful office in the land and commanding enthusiastic popular support.
Perhaps Biden expected that being VP to Obama would help him gain the presidency -- but it would be with the understanding that a black man helped him get to that position.
Many other white men took even quieter roles in assisting the presidency of a black man, with no plans of seeking great power themselves.
To be precise, Biden didn't give political power - the presidency - to Kamala. He gave her the opportunity to be selected by the party delegates as the nominee. It's up to the voters to give her that power.
Biden chose Harris as his VP knowing that being VP can be a stepping stone to the presidency - which means having power over every white man (and woman) in the land. And if she is president, she will have vastly more power than her white husband -- who appears to welcome that prospect.
And yes, Obama is a black man, not a black woman -- but if "woman" is the crucial aspect in the argument, why not just say that men never give away political power to women?
The whole Obama phenomenon included a lot of white men willing and eager to give a black man more power than they aspired to have themselves.
LBJ. You could even argue Nixon. Both were essentially the same circumstances as Biden; they were going to lose their power one way or the other, either by being elected out of office or impeached, respectively, so they just bailed.
Harry Truman too. He lost a primary to Estes Kefauver, who went on to win 12 of 13 primaries in 1952 but didn't get the nomination, mainly because in Congress he lead investigations of organized crime.
Fair enough. I would contend that it's not quite right to say Biden gave up his pawer to a black woman in any case (that's what a resignation would look like), but it's a great gesture on his part to endorse her as he withdraws. The dynamics have changed significantly since that endorsement in ways Biden couldn't have predicted when he made it, but certainly his endorsement played a role in shaping those dynamics.
I don’t think people quite realize that since Sunday the backbone of the Black and Asian/Indian middle classes in this country have pulled out their checkbooks and signed up for Harris. That could look very different from 2020 and even 2008.
My social media is full of Divine Nine members taking about their energetic support for Harris; the whacking great numbers of dollars raised in the last 48 hours; the Divine Nine are the four natl Black sororities and the five natl Black fraternities. I live in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC. If you live here long enough, you absorb how much the Divine Nine have contributed to the growth and success of the Black middle class; and they are all in for Harris. If you live or work anywhere around South Asians, you notice how well-to-do much of the community are, and how excited the Aunties are about Kamala. That is how I know this.
OK. Didn't know about them and their role in the Black middle class. I was hoping for some kind of credible reporting, but I'll take your word for it since you live where you do, meaning close to the political power center.
Re: credible reporting, I think this is a story that’s being missed by media. They may eventually catch up, but at the moment they’re too distracted by the vast sums of money and the D cohesion to ask where the money and the cohesion is coming from, and why.
FEC.gov is open for all, but the money is still rolling in. Like I said, this is — what’s the media term? — an evolving story. Eventually they’ll get around to asking why this happened so quickly.
Of course they did, Colleen because that's how power is given in a liberal democracy. And she had to get it from them again two more times till her party dumped her.
I agree. Sellers has lost all credibility with me. As of just a day ago, after Biden had withdrawn, he was still attacking people who had called on Biden to step down. Before Biden stepped down, he said it would NEVER happen. Wrong and wrong.
Totally agree. I expected him to argue his position on the merits. Lazy and reductive is well put. That's why I was not persuaded by what he said on Tim's pod.
I spotted Sellers being namedropped in a Politico article today as a "close Harris ally" with knowledge of her campaign strategy (to get out there fast and big). I mean, maybe the writer was full of shit citing him like that, but given that Sellers' messaging arc during the Uncertain Times wasn't far from hers (though details like Biden giving up power to a Black woman were), seems he's doing okay
I listened to Tim's pod with Sellers and I was unpersuaded by pretty much anything he said, which is surprising because he's a lawyer who's been trained to make an argument which requires reasons and facts to support your claim. He's more a politician who spins to his political advantage, which is what he was doing with his prediction that a white man would never give up anything of value to a Black woman. As you've shown, it happens.
He was the first I saw - on CNN - to speak about Biden stepping down. He didn't really acknowledge what he believed has never happened in the history of history has happened. Pols never do. This morning, CNN reported on a conversation (via Zoom, I guess) with thousands of Black men about supporting Harris led by Sellers. So he's Riden with Harris, just as you would expect a politician to do.
Van Jones was also on the call. I find him to be much better at articulating the Black perspective.
Re: "And as the American Enterprise Institute’s Stan Veuger points out, “shaped but not burdened by” shouldn’t be too complex a notion for some to grasp."
Well, okay, but there ARE sophisticated people out there who can't grasp this. Bakari Sellers was talking to Tim the other day and posited that Joe Biden would never step aside for Harris because "never in the history of history," to paraphrase, "had a White man given up anything of value to a Black woman."
He is both shaped by and burdened by his worldview. It's all nonsense, of course, but when you're swimming in nonsense and have been for your whole adult life, you can't see it. What happens to the Sellers now? Now that what he believes has never happened in the history of history has happened right in front of his face? I don't know. I hope it wakes him and others like him up because, if he can chuck the nonsense, we can have a great future. If he can't, we won't.
(And, as an aside, the whole premise of his view is wrong. In the corporate world, White men turn over responsibility for very important projects, positions and companies to Black women all the time and no one says anything about it. Same thing in academia. And the media. So where he gets his information -- never in the history of history -- baffles me. It might not happen enough for his tastes, but it is untrue that it has never happened.)
The last time it happened in American politics, please.
It’s not nonsense. One of the reasons Sellers may be imprisoned by his past experiences is that white men don’t give up political power — GIVE UP, not lose elections — to Black women. To a lot of people, what Joe Biden did on Sunday was extraordinary. It shouldn’t be, as you imply. But it is, and that’s one reason people are so energized. Change seems possible.
Well, okay, but White men don't give up power to other White men, either. Did George H.W. Bush say, "Y'know, I like the cut of that Bill Clinton's jib. Why don't we just call it a day and save a bunch of time and money? Bill, give my Chief of Staff a call. I'll show you around. We can have this all wrapped up by next week."
No, a President resigning is unusual. But that’s not how you characterized your paraphrase of Sellers. You are arguing that what men give up all kinds of power to Black women all the time, and while it’s surely more common than it used to be, a white American President dropping out of a race confident his VP, a Black woman, could win it, is unusual. In this country, with our history, as one party has worked awfully hard over the last decade to remove political power from Black people via gerrymandering, yes, it’s unusual.
Never said it was "usual." It isn't, of course. But what Bakari Sellers said, "never in the history of history," is wrong, unless you narrow it down to Presidential politics. If THAT'S the dataset, then, he's right. There is no case in American history where a sitting American President has given up the office to a Black woman. But I don't think that's what Sellers meant.
I’m pretty sure he did mean politics specifically. Though I don’t think there are *all* that many examples in business or academia either - especially when the person who was being handed the power wasn’t especially popular and had many vulnerabilities. If you want to provide specific examples, I’d love to hear them.
I think there’s a very good reason it took Biden so long to give up power. There might have been an element of ego to be sure (though from the way some pundits, politicians and donors were treating him, I think some of the indignation was deserved). However, I think the biggest hurdle keeping him from stepping aside was uncertainty that Harris would perform all that much better than him. I don’t think that’s because he’s racist or misogynistic but because he knows that a decent percentage of the electorate is.
That Biden still chose to publicly express his support for Harris, despite these lingering concerns and calls for a more “democratic process” via an open convention by many people in the pundit/donor/political establishment class, speaks volumes about his character, judgment and commitment to doing the right thing even when it’s difficult or unpopular.
Sellars was not wrong. He was just underestimating Biden like everyone has always done his entire life.
Sellers wasn't just talking about Joe Biden. "Never in the history of history" covers a lot of ground. I find this argument objectionable because it's cynical and dismissive of a lot of things that have happened "in the history of history."
I listened to these same arguments back when Barack Obama started his first run. No way White people would ever nominate a Black man for President! No way White people would ever vote for a Black man for President! No way Iowa voters -- because they're so White -- would ever choose a Black man to win the Iowa Caucuses! And on and on and on and on. It was all nonsense. All of those things happened and we don't have to go back to the Seleucid Empire to find that example.
Those arguments -- and Sellers' -- were predicated on the belief that America -- specifically White America -- was so racist that they would never do these things that they actually did. It rejected the notion that Americans -- writ large -- could evaluate a slate of candidates and choose the best one, regardless of that person's skin color. John McCain was a great man, a patriot, a hero, a qualified candidate. Barack Obama wasn't campaigning against some no-name dope, some Average White Man who, because of all his inherent privilege, just got what he wanted without working for it. And Barack Obama, because he worked hard, campaigned well, put together a great team and had a compelling message, beat him soundly, fair and square. There were no riots. John McCain didn't refuse to accept the results of the election. He conceded. Graciously. And he wished Obama well.
The whole notion that power is "given" to anyone strikes me as nonsensical too. Power is gained. It's earned. Sometimes it's seized. We've only had one President resign -- give up power -- and that was because he was going to be impeached and convicted in the Senate. He didn't want to do it. He was compelled to do it.
I suppose I've already written too many words about a nonsensical argument made by a guy on a podcast, but it really did strike me as the kind of argument that begged for some kind of response.
Good clarification of narrowing it down to presidents. I didn't get that he was being that narrow.
Joe Biden, after decades in politics, consented to be the vice president to a younger black man who hadn't even finished a full senate term. He agreed to be a subordinate, with a quiet (and limited), secondary role, under a black man holding the most powerful office in the land and commanding enthusiastic popular support.
Perhaps Biden expected that being VP to Obama would help him gain the presidency -- but it would be with the understanding that a black man helped him get to that position.
Many other white men took even quieter roles in assisting the presidency of a black man, with no plans of seeking great power themselves.
All this is true. But again, we were talking about a white man giving political power to a Black woman.
To be precise, Biden didn't give political power - the presidency - to Kamala. He gave her the opportunity to be selected by the party delegates as the nominee. It's up to the voters to give her that power.
Exactly right. He took an action that allowed her a shot. That's it. A fair shot, which is all anyone has a right to ask for in this world.
Biden chose Harris as his VP knowing that being VP can be a stepping stone to the presidency - which means having power over every white man (and woman) in the land. And if she is president, she will have vastly more power than her white husband -- who appears to welcome that prospect.
And yes, Obama is a black man, not a black woman -- but if "woman" is the crucial aspect in the argument, why not just say that men never give away political power to women?
The whole Obama phenomenon included a lot of white men willing and eager to give a black man more power than they aspired to have themselves.
LBJ. You could even argue Nixon. Both were essentially the same circumstances as Biden; they were going to lose their power one way or the other, either by being elected out of office or impeached, respectively, so they just bailed.
Harry Truman too. He lost a primary to Estes Kefauver, who went on to win 12 of 13 primaries in 1952 but didn't get the nomination, mainly because in Congress he lead investigations of organized crime.
I think if you read dicicero’s comment, which I was responding to, my subsequent comments will make more sense.
Fair enough. I would contend that it's not quite right to say Biden gave up his pawer to a black woman in any case (that's what a resignation would look like), but it's a great gesture on his part to endorse her as he withdraws. The dynamics have changed significantly since that endorsement in ways Biden couldn't have predicted when he made it, but certainly his endorsement played a role in shaping those dynamics.
They handed their power to BLACK WOMEN? That wasn’t in my AP US history textbook, or yours.
I don’t think people quite realize that since Sunday the backbone of the Black and Asian/Indian middle classes in this country have pulled out their checkbooks and signed up for Harris. That could look very different from 2020 and even 2008.
How do you know this?
My social media is full of Divine Nine members taking about their energetic support for Harris; the whacking great numbers of dollars raised in the last 48 hours; the Divine Nine are the four natl Black sororities and the five natl Black fraternities. I live in the Maryland suburbs of Washington DC. If you live here long enough, you absorb how much the Divine Nine have contributed to the growth and success of the Black middle class; and they are all in for Harris. If you live or work anywhere around South Asians, you notice how well-to-do much of the community are, and how excited the Aunties are about Kamala. That is how I know this.
OK. Didn't know about them and their role in the Black middle class. I was hoping for some kind of credible reporting, but I'll take your word for it since you live where you do, meaning close to the political power center.
Re: credible reporting, I think this is a story that’s being missed by media. They may eventually catch up, but at the moment they’re too distracted by the vast sums of money and the D cohesion to ask where the money and the cohesion is coming from, and why.
As to credible reporting, I meant not cable news bliviators, but reporters who cite FEC reports.
FEC.gov is open for all, but the money is still rolling in. Like I said, this is — what’s the media term? — an evolving story. Eventually they’ll get around to asking why this happened so quickly.
My history classes didn't have any examples of white men handing over political power to any women of any color.
I don't recall Margaret Thatcher becoming Prime Minister following a coup.
The voters essentially gave it to her.
Exactly my point. Thatcher made her case. There was an election. Votes were cast. Rules were followed. Thatcher succeeded the prior Prime Minister.
It wasn't a direct handover in the sense Biden has with Kamala.
Biden has NOT directly given Kamala power. She still has to get the nod from the voters.
Of course they did, Colleen because that's how power is given in a liberal democracy. And she had to get it from them again two more times till her party dumped her.
A Black woman being handed political power is what Sellers is talking about. Not a President relinquishing it, which is still rare enough.
If that's what Sellers meant, it's not what he said. He made the comment before Biden dropped out of the race.
I agree. Sellers has lost all credibility with me. As of just a day ago, after Biden had withdrawn, he was still attacking people who had called on Biden to step down. Before Biden stepped down, he said it would NEVER happen. Wrong and wrong.
Yep.
A difference without a distinction. Sellers was wrong. He just was.
She wasn't handed power. Only the voters can give her that power.
That response from Bakari was the worst kind of "insight" -- cynicism masquerading as analysis.
If you were a Black man in this country — I’m assuming from your profile picture you’re not — wouldn’t you be cynical? Or fearful?
If I were a commentator and former politician, as Sellers is, I would choose a position and advocate for it on the merits.
He could've argued that Biden has the best chance of winning because of X, Y or Z.
Instead he just went with "he's a white man who will never give up power." It's lazy and reductive.
Totally agree. I expected him to argue his position on the merits. Lazy and reductive is well put. That's why I was not persuaded by what he said on Tim's pod.
His experience as a Black man is not a basis for evaluating a candidate. And, it turns out, his experience told him wrong.
I spotted Sellers being namedropped in a Politico article today as a "close Harris ally" with knowledge of her campaign strategy (to get out there fast and big). I mean, maybe the writer was full of shit citing him like that, but given that Sellers' messaging arc during the Uncertain Times wasn't far from hers (though details like Biden giving up power to a Black woman were), seems he's doing okay
Charles V was once king of the world. Now no one even remembers him or that he abdicated the throne.
People today don't know what happened 50 years ago, never mind 500 years ago.
I listened to Tim's pod with Sellers and I was unpersuaded by pretty much anything he said, which is surprising because he's a lawyer who's been trained to make an argument which requires reasons and facts to support your claim. He's more a politician who spins to his political advantage, which is what he was doing with his prediction that a white man would never give up anything of value to a Black woman. As you've shown, it happens.
He was the first I saw - on CNN - to speak about Biden stepping down. He didn't really acknowledge what he believed has never happened in the history of history has happened. Pols never do. This morning, CNN reported on a conversation (via Zoom, I guess) with thousands of Black men about supporting Harris led by Sellers. So he's Riden with Harris, just as you would expect a politician to do.
Van Jones was also on the call. I find him to be much better at articulating the Black perspective.
FWIW, I don't think Bakari Sellers is that sophisticated. I think Tim, Sarah and JVL are. He's a politician. He spins. They're analysts.