People who study cults must be ecstatic to have this case study to watch.
It seems unusual to me to have the cult members start to turn on the leader in this way.
Certainly hope they all can find a way to destroy each other. For any of them that are interested, Markwayne Mullin says dueling is still cool. Don’t listen to that square Rand Paul.
I know the main article is on Kent, but I'm stuck on the one college TPUSA in Arkansas breaking away for two reasons #1) These are supposedly college students who should have some level of critical thinking - yet they are following prey to a charlatan like Candace Owens (not that TPUSA espouses great intellectualism either) - what does that foretell for our future? #2) Then what will it take to break this spell that people like Candace Owens have over young people. I watched the Focus Group Pod where the subject of Candace came up a lot, the hold she has over so many young people is truly scary (again not that TPUSA was any better)
Terry - my college years were generations ago. Made some great friends, had acquaintances who were brilliant & had values. Also knew in guys my dorm, classes, or rental houses who fit my image who today would be groypers, charlatans or followers thereof, etc. I don't see this as a new thing, though our current communication technologies have raised the visibility & dialed up the loony a weeeee bit
Great article. I gotta say, though, I disagree with one tiny point you made at the end, one which I think I heard Tim make at some point and maybe some folks agreed with - I don’t think JD Vance has inextricably tied himself to Trump’s Iran war, certainly not as completely as Rubio has. I think Vance’s current preference for hiding, while both cowardly and hypocritical, will be enough of a shield in the future for him to say that he was never comfortable with this war, and he reveres Trump so much that he didn’t have the heart to break with him publicly or resign but he knew from the start that malicious warhawk neocons were swaying Trump with their evil seductive hawkish ways (or whatever sycophantic bs he comes up with). I think he is currently actively positioning himself to be Rubio’s foil on this issue when they inevitably clash, and I’m not convinced it won’t work.
This is yet another piece by the Bulwark that suffers from the monoculture there.
In poll after poll, the war's strongest supporters are the President’s MAGA base. That could change, but it’s where things stand now.
"In a few years, the Iran war will probably be unpopular on the right" This will likely only be the case if Iran devolves into an "endless war" or a similar quagmire. Again, that could happen, but it certainly isn’t "probable" as things stand now.
Why then would Vance or Rubio resign now?
It might help Will Sommer's journalism if he spent less time on-line and more time among actual Republicans, MAGA and otherwise.
That’s a fair perspective, although I disagree. However, if that is his point, with polling indicating 80-90% support among MAGA, he should say it. Without that acknowledgement, his piece doesn’t resonate.
We won't be able to rely on character or similar values to evaluate the veracity of MAGA actions/statements in the short run. We will have to use all the available information and our instincts. We can't automatically dismiss the clowns and kooks.
Currently, I tend to think of the people of America and the people of Israel similarly---the majority may not agree with what Trump or Bibi are doing so anti-Trump <>anti-American or anti-religion.
In this case Kent is corroborating the view shared by Rubio initially so while his antisemitism or anti-interventionist leanings likely impacts his analysis, it's not crazy. I am curious about the timing of resignation: I would think this is a critical time for a counterterrorism leader to lock in and add value.
Here's my prediction, as the Iran "excursion" drags on and the war and Trump himself become increasingly unpopular, JD Vance will be at a crossroads. He will realize that he has two options, he can remain VP and kiss his prospects as a front runner in the Presidental primary, or he will need to make a break from Trump and condemn the war, which would require him to resign as VP. JD resigns, Marco takes his place as VP. JD emerges as the opposition candidate to Trump's preferred candidate, Marco.
I don’t think he has the balls to do this, but I agree that’s what he *wants* to do. I think he’ll just keep hiding and offering extremely qualified and tepid support for Trump, and then later claim that he was against the war the whole time. And based on the common hypocrisy of everyone on the right these days, I bet the anti-war people will accept that and build him up as the foil to Rubio.
Interesting but I think he is too close to ascending to step away. He has joked at how much "practice" he is getting at being POTUS, he likely knows electoral politics are risky for him and the odds of him having the opportunity at POTUS before January 2029 are likely less risky for him.
Interesting, but Vance is way too cowardly politically to take an initiative that brazen. Before that, he'd be more likely to try organizing a behind-the -scenes coalition to pursue the 25th Amendment.
Are they really choosing sides or laying the groundwork to take over when nature calls for a 79 year old man that's been cramming Big Macs down his throat his entire life?
You never have to hand it to Joe Kent, but he displayed something someone no one else in the Trump administration has - adherence to some set of principles - and it is definitely freaking everyone in that regime out
I didn’t think blatant anti-Semitism was a principle. I can where anti-Semitism fits into a right wing racist, sexist, xenophobic agenda to boost his “cred” in the former GOP.
Being caught on the 'wrong side' of the debate assumes, IMO, two beliefs (1) the war with Iran will go badly (which is a possible outcome) and (2) that Trump will lose his hold over the MAGA movement. Alternatively, if the war ends 'successfully' (however that's defined) and Trump's claim that he is MAGA (MAGA is what Trump says and does), then it will be Owens, Carlson, et al who are on the wrong side of the debate ... assuming we're still debating.
Great he did this to expose the infighting but wasn’t he a January 6 participant? He failed to win a congressional seat so perhaps they think now is the time to gather their troops and go for it again, now with greater name recognition. His anti semitism is hard baked. Watch out for him.
One the one hand, I'm glad his resignation is getting some traction on the right. On the other hand, it's appalling that the proximate antisemitism is the reason it's getting traction.
I don't believe he did it for cynical reasons. I don't see him enriching himself or trading up his career by doing this. He has no political future and now no future in government. And the DOJ will come after him. However odd and regrettable his beliefs are, I think he's a true believer.
This battle is not far away and frightening already: "For anyone in the administration with political ambitions who might believe this is where things are heading—and who might want to get there more quickly—Kent has raised the stakes for what it will take to do so convincingly: a loud resignation. JD Vance and Marco Rubio will likely be stuck on the wrong side of that debate in 2028. But Kent and Carlson won’t be."
People who study cults must be ecstatic to have this case study to watch.
It seems unusual to me to have the cult members start to turn on the leader in this way.
Certainly hope they all can find a way to destroy each other. For any of them that are interested, Markwayne Mullin says dueling is still cool. Don’t listen to that square Rand Paul.
I know the main article is on Kent, but I'm stuck on the one college TPUSA in Arkansas breaking away for two reasons #1) These are supposedly college students who should have some level of critical thinking - yet they are following prey to a charlatan like Candace Owens (not that TPUSA espouses great intellectualism either) - what does that foretell for our future? #2) Then what will it take to break this spell that people like Candace Owens have over young people. I watched the Focus Group Pod where the subject of Candace came up a lot, the hold she has over so many young people is truly scary (again not that TPUSA was any better)
Terry - my college years were generations ago. Made some great friends, had acquaintances who were brilliant & had values. Also knew in guys my dorm, classes, or rental houses who fit my image who today would be groypers, charlatans or followers thereof, etc. I don't see this as a new thing, though our current communication technologies have raised the visibility & dialed up the loony a weeeee bit
Will! You were born for this moment! Mana from heaven!
Great article. I gotta say, though, I disagree with one tiny point you made at the end, one which I think I heard Tim make at some point and maybe some folks agreed with - I don’t think JD Vance has inextricably tied himself to Trump’s Iran war, certainly not as completely as Rubio has. I think Vance’s current preference for hiding, while both cowardly and hypocritical, will be enough of a shield in the future for him to say that he was never comfortable with this war, and he reveres Trump so much that he didn’t have the heart to break with him publicly or resign but he knew from the start that malicious warhawk neocons were swaying Trump with their evil seductive hawkish ways (or whatever sycophantic bs he comes up with). I think he is currently actively positioning himself to be Rubio’s foil on this issue when they inevitably clash, and I’m not convinced it won’t work.
This is yet another piece by the Bulwark that suffers from the monoculture there.
In poll after poll, the war's strongest supporters are the President’s MAGA base. That could change, but it’s where things stand now.
"In a few years, the Iran war will probably be unpopular on the right" This will likely only be the case if Iran devolves into an "endless war" or a similar quagmire. Again, that could happen, but it certainly isn’t "probable" as things stand now.
Why then would Vance or Rubio resign now?
It might help Will Sommer's journalism if he spent less time on-line and more time among actual Republicans, MAGA and otherwise.
I think Will’s point is that he thinks it *will* change. I’m pretty sure he is aware of current polling. And I think he is correct on this point.
That’s a fair perspective, although I disagree. However, if that is his point, with polling indicating 80-90% support among MAGA, he should say it. Without that acknowledgement, his piece doesn’t resonate.
We won't be able to rely on character or similar values to evaluate the veracity of MAGA actions/statements in the short run. We will have to use all the available information and our instincts. We can't automatically dismiss the clowns and kooks.
Currently, I tend to think of the people of America and the people of Israel similarly---the majority may not agree with what Trump or Bibi are doing so anti-Trump <>anti-American or anti-religion.
In this case Kent is corroborating the view shared by Rubio initially so while his antisemitism or anti-interventionist leanings likely impacts his analysis, it's not crazy. I am curious about the timing of resignation: I would think this is a critical time for a counterterrorism leader to lock in and add value.
Here's my prediction, as the Iran "excursion" drags on and the war and Trump himself become increasingly unpopular, JD Vance will be at a crossroads. He will realize that he has two options, he can remain VP and kiss his prospects as a front runner in the Presidental primary, or he will need to make a break from Trump and condemn the war, which would require him to resign as VP. JD resigns, Marco takes his place as VP. JD emerges as the opposition candidate to Trump's preferred candidate, Marco.
I don’t think he has the balls to do this, but I agree that’s what he *wants* to do. I think he’ll just keep hiding and offering extremely qualified and tepid support for Trump, and then later claim that he was against the war the whole time. And based on the common hypocrisy of everyone on the right these days, I bet the anti-war people will accept that and build him up as the foil to Rubio.
Interesting but I think he is too close to ascending to step away. He has joked at how much "practice" he is getting at being POTUS, he likely knows electoral politics are risky for him and the odds of him having the opportunity at POTUS before January 2029 are likely less risky for him.
Interesting, but Vance is way too cowardly politically to take an initiative that brazen. Before that, he'd be more likely to try organizing a behind-the -scenes coalition to pursue the 25th Amendment.
Didn't Catoggio write this article a couple days ago?
Are they really choosing sides or laying the groundwork to take over when nature calls for a 79 year old man that's been cramming Big Macs down his throat his entire life?
You never have to hand it to Joe Kent, but he displayed something someone no one else in the Trump administration has - adherence to some set of principles - and it is definitely freaking everyone in that regime out
I didn’t think blatant anti-Semitism was a principle. I can where anti-Semitism fits into a right wing racist, sexist, xenophobic agenda to boost his “cred” in the former GOP.
Being caught on the 'wrong side' of the debate assumes, IMO, two beliefs (1) the war with Iran will go badly (which is a possible outcome) and (2) that Trump will lose his hold over the MAGA movement. Alternatively, if the war ends 'successfully' (however that's defined) and Trump's claim that he is MAGA (MAGA is what Trump says and does), then it will be Owens, Carlson, et al who are on the wrong side of the debate ... assuming we're still debating.
Joe Kent leaked classified information!?!? I didn't even know that he was ON Signal!
Great he did this to expose the infighting but wasn’t he a January 6 participant? He failed to win a congressional seat so perhaps they think now is the time to gather their troops and go for it again, now with greater name recognition. His anti semitism is hard baked. Watch out for him.
One the one hand, I'm glad his resignation is getting some traction on the right. On the other hand, it's appalling that the proximate antisemitism is the reason it's getting traction.
I don't believe he did it for cynical reasons. I don't see him enriching himself or trading up his career by doing this. He has no political future and now no future in government. And the DOJ will come after him. However odd and regrettable his beliefs are, I think he's a true believer.
This battle is not far away and frightening already: "For anyone in the administration with political ambitions who might believe this is where things are heading—and who might want to get there more quickly—Kent has raised the stakes for what it will take to do so convincingly: a loud resignation. JD Vance and Marco Rubio will likely be stuck on the wrong side of that debate in 2028. But Kent and Carlson won’t be."
Let them fight.