Just to double check, the only way Diane Feinstein goes is if she resigns. right?
There is no senate equivalent of the 25th amendment?
My heart goes out to Diane Feinstein, but I wish someone in her family, or an aide, or a senate colleague would hand her a resignation letter to sign and release. She's so far gone, she'll probably believe …
Just to double check, the only way Diane Feinstein goes is if she resigns. right?
There is no senate equivalent of the 25th amendment?
My heart goes out to Diane Feinstein, but I wish someone in her family, or an aide, or a senate colleague would hand her a resignation letter to sign and release. She's so far gone, she'll probably believe she's a working senator even after her resignation. It probably wouldn't be that upsetting for her.
I have a lot of sympathy for DiFi. That woman is a pioneer at all levels of government. She has been a giant in the Senate. I think it’s tragic that such an honorable and illustrious career will peter out this way.
Well, because of the House, it seems unlikely that any legislation has a realistic hope of passing anyway, with or without her. Most critical is her role in the Judiciary Committee. Republicans blocked a temporary replacement during her absence, and presumably would continue to do so if she resigned or got expelled (assuming she can). Democrats need her alive and well enough to vote for confirmations.
She can resign or be expelled. That’s basically it. I don’t know if there’s any way that someone else could assume power of attorney to resign on her behalf if, say, she were to fall into a coma or other persistent vegetative state but not actually die.
Strom Thurmond, by many reports, was going through similar processes in his last term as well, but nobody had the heart to push him out either.
Okay, this is gonna sound crazy, but we probably need a Senator Emeritus position that would allow Senators past a certain age with some high number of years of service to retire with pay equivalent to a retired Senator’s salary but would allow also certain privileges of the office, including a small office and staff on Capitol Hill. I think some of these old timers don’t want to leave Washington and all their long time colleagues , so this may be a way to ease them out. They resign the office and become Emeritus.
I think we move away from supporting the gerontocracy - just my $0.02. The plan is workable, I disagree with implementing it. There are a shit ton of Senators over 80, several over 85 in the forced birth GQP senate. Fewer I can think of on the Democratic Party. Either way it’s too many ‘elders’ tottering around trying to regulate MySpace.
Only 15 US senators have ever been expelled. 14 of them were supporters of the Confederacy and the other committed treason. Approximate chances of Feinstein being expelled: 0.0%.
I wonder if she has a durable power of attorney. It sounds very unlikely that she can manage basic finance decisions, so someone must be taking care of all that.
I would think the Senate could remove a member for cause. As sad as removing Feinstein would be, this is the rare instance in which that power can be used for good instead of for politics.
When I looked this up it seemed like everyone who had been expelled had been expelled over some kind of crime? So using 2/3 to expel someone for incapacity would be permissible but uncharted territory?
There’s no particular standard for expulsion, although given that the Constitution lumps expulsion in with disciplinary measures and the process in both chambers starts with their respective ethics committees, it does seem unlikely that they would expel her for simple incapacity.
I think that's accurate. Senators all want to hold on to power forever and the Republic be damned. Quite literally now. So they won't do it when it's needed in case it's done to them later. And there's a lot done in House and Senate that is not the spirit or letter of the Constitution as far as I can tell.
(I also think it's possible for Calif to recall her for cause but expensive and probably lacking the will.)
The Wikipedia article on the Senator mentions only one child, a former CA judge. There is no discussion of other children and no mention of who might be in a position to execute her wishes under a living will. Her last husband died of cancer in 2022.
I imagine the death of her spouse really kicked off this spiral.
But if she were my mother I'd be trying to get her to sign a resignation letter for the sake of her legacy. Lucid Diane Feinstein would not have wanted this for herself, her colleagues, or her country.
I basically agree, but at the same time... they can't really resign FOR her. Based on her tone, Feinstein is still stubbornly convinced that she's capable (almost certainly a product of her senility). If family members try to take charge and announce her resignation but she herself is still saying "What? Resign? Of course I haven't resigned!" ...how ugly (and legally complicated) is THAT going to get?
Well, first of all... I think the legal/procedural issues are more significant than her fee-fees. Let's say a family member strongly encourages her to resign, gets some sort of agreement from her, and announces it publicly... but then Feinstein, being senile, forgets she ever agreed, or claims she didn't, or suggests she was coerced into signing something. What do you do? Is her "resignation" official if she won't stay onboard or on-message about it, or there's talk swirling around that she was coerced?
Again, this is not only ugly but complicated. As I said in my follow-up post, it seems like the cleanest thing legally would be for family to have her declared legally incompetent (assuming she meets the standards) but surely everyone around her wants to avoid the humiliating spectacle of literally forcing her out. So yeah, I guess that's where everyone's fee-fees come in.
I think if she had a family who cared about this, if they removed her from DC to Calif it would no longer be America's problem. But I don't know all the arcane self-inflating rules Congress has, nor do I know Calif law.
She would need to send an unambiguous letter of resignation, likely to the Vice President and other particulars in the Senate. Once she does so, she’s out. This is not a reversible decision.
Well, in a word—exactly. My example was meant to illustrate what happens if Feinstein's family tries to "step up" (as someone posted above) but she isn't onboard. They really can't do some kind of end-run around official procedure to nudge her out while saving her dignity. Assuming she's not declared legally incompetent, SHE has to be the one to write (or at least sign) that letter of resignation... and how do you get her to do that if she still firmly believes (in her sadly addled mind) that she's capable and has no desire to step down?
That's why this is all a lot more complicated than "how could her family let her publicly disintegrate like this (while also depriving her constituents of a competent senator)?" The bottom line is that if she won't be convinced, there's nothing they can actually DO—short of having her declared incompetent, as I've discussed.
Yeah. We’re probably stuck with her until her term ends, unless she actually dies. The only silver lining to that is that she’s got less than two years left in her term.
I hope the OTHER silver lining is that, once Feinstein is out of office (so it doesn't blatantly appear to be about her) maybe we'll have some chance at a rules change to guard against this sort of thing. I don't know which option is most sellable to lawmakers: age limits? term limits? some trigger that kicks you out if you miss a certain number of days? some 25th-Amendment-like option to address mental incompetence? There are enough fellow geezers in Congress that I envision resistance to most or all of those.
But I think Feinstein will prove to be an object lesson for a lot of them. Legislatively, no one wants the problems Democrats had while she was absent and couldn't vote on judicial nominations.
And... I HOPE this will prompt a more personal reckoning too. I hope lawmakers will look at her and decide they don't want to end up the same way: publicly falling apart and too senile to know they need to quit.
It took FDR's death to give us term limits for presidents. He was the object lesson that showed how staying president indefinitely is a bad idea. Maybe Feinstein's decline can serve a similar purpose.
Following on that thought... it seems like the sort of "nuclear option" would be for family members to have her declared legally incompetent so someone could become her guardian and actually *could* make legally binding decisions for her. But that too is ugly and humiliating, and bet her loved ones are hoping to avoid that at almost any cost... including just letting her ride out the rest of her Senate term. There's this combination of squeamishness and respect (for the person she used to be) that will make it incredibly hard for anyone to take action... and all too tempting to keep hoping against hope that the situation resolves itself some other way.
I get L.A. Times headlines delivered to my email. The blurb included with the headline about Feinsteins’s return made no mention at all about her state of confusion. Possibly it’s in the full story, but to me, that IS the story.
Just to double check, the only way Diane Feinstein goes is if she resigns. right?
There is no senate equivalent of the 25th amendment?
My heart goes out to Diane Feinstein, but I wish someone in her family, or an aide, or a senate colleague would hand her a resignation letter to sign and release. She's so far gone, she'll probably believe she's a working senator even after her resignation. It probably wouldn't be that upsetting for her.
I have a lot of sympathy for DiFi. That woman is a pioneer at all levels of government. She has been a giant in the Senate. I think it’s tragic that such an honorable and illustrious career will peter out this way.
I too wish someone close to her would step up.
Well, because of the House, it seems unlikely that any legislation has a realistic hope of passing anyway, with or without her. Most critical is her role in the Judiciary Committee. Republicans blocked a temporary replacement during her absence, and presumably would continue to do so if she resigned or got expelled (assuming she can). Democrats need her alive and well enough to vote for confirmations.
She can resign or be expelled. That’s basically it. I don’t know if there’s any way that someone else could assume power of attorney to resign on her behalf if, say, she were to fall into a coma or other persistent vegetative state but not actually die.
Strom Thurmond, by many reports, was going through similar processes in his last term as well, but nobody had the heart to push him out either.
Okay, this is gonna sound crazy, but we probably need a Senator Emeritus position that would allow Senators past a certain age with some high number of years of service to retire with pay equivalent to a retired Senator’s salary but would allow also certain privileges of the office, including a small office and staff on Capitol Hill. I think some of these old timers don’t want to leave Washington and all their long time colleagues , so this may be a way to ease them out. They resign the office and become Emeritus.
A dementia village in the Capitol? We already pay way too much for them for the work they "do" for us.
We already pay retirement. It’s a title with an office. Would be 2 or 3 at most. Make them share an office.
I think we move away from supporting the gerontocracy - just my $0.02. The plan is workable, I disagree with implementing it. There are a shit ton of Senators over 80, several over 85 in the forced birth GQP senate. Fewer I can think of on the Democratic Party. Either way it’s too many ‘elders’ tottering around trying to regulate MySpace.
That’s the point. Give them a way out. We need them to retire but they are often reluctant because it means going from something big to playing bingo.
It’s a tough problem. Does the option to take ‘senior status’ cover enough of the power and money thrills? I agree it isn’t bingo… but is it enough?
We agree there’s a problem and at least you’ve put forward an idea. Thanks for putting something out to at least start a discussion.
Only 15 US senators have ever been expelled. 14 of them were supporters of the Confederacy and the other committed treason. Approximate chances of Feinstein being expelled: 0.0%.
Thank you. I thought it was a pretty big leap to be expel someone for incapacitation when every other removal was for literal Treason.
Like Trump and his fake Oval Office in Mar a Lago.
I wonder if she has a durable power of attorney. It sounds very unlikely that she can manage basic finance decisions, so someone must be taking care of all that.
Maybe her attorney.
I would think the Senate could remove a member for cause. As sad as removing Feinstein would be, this is the rare instance in which that power can be used for good instead of for politics.
I don't know why people think that. Feinstein can be expelled by 2/3 of the vote and replaced that way.
When I looked this up it seemed like everyone who had been expelled had been expelled over some kind of crime? So using 2/3 to expel someone for incapacity would be permissible but uncharted territory?
There’s no particular standard for expulsion, although given that the Constitution lumps expulsion in with disciplinary measures and the process in both chambers starts with their respective ethics committees, it does seem unlikely that they would expel her for simple incapacity.
I think that's accurate. Senators all want to hold on to power forever and the Republic be damned. Quite literally now. So they won't do it when it's needed in case it's done to them later. And there's a lot done in House and Senate that is not the spirit or letter of the Constitution as far as I can tell.
(I also think it's possible for Calif to recall her for cause but expensive and probably lacking the will.)
No, members of Congress can’t be recalled. Resignation, defeat in an election, and expulsion are the only ways out while she’s still got a pulse.
Her continuing in this position is an unkindness to HER. Someone in her family really does need to step up.
Exactly!
The Wikipedia article on the Senator mentions only one child, a former CA judge. There is no discussion of other children and no mention of who might be in a position to execute her wishes under a living will. Her last husband died of cancer in 2022.
I imagine the death of her spouse really kicked off this spiral.
But if she were my mother I'd be trying to get her to sign a resignation letter for the sake of her legacy. Lucid Diane Feinstein would not have wanted this for herself, her colleagues, or her country.
I completely agree, the woman in her seat is not the Senator from CA that most of us remember with a great deal of respect.
I basically agree, but at the same time... they can't really resign FOR her. Based on her tone, Feinstein is still stubbornly convinced that she's capable (almost certainly a product of her senility). If family members try to take charge and announce her resignation but she herself is still saying "What? Resign? Of course I haven't resigned!" ...how ugly (and legally complicated) is THAT going to get?
There is a way.
Well, frankly, at this point, who cares about her little fee-fees. She's harming the country.
Well, first of all... I think the legal/procedural issues are more significant than her fee-fees. Let's say a family member strongly encourages her to resign, gets some sort of agreement from her, and announces it publicly... but then Feinstein, being senile, forgets she ever agreed, or claims she didn't, or suggests she was coerced into signing something. What do you do? Is her "resignation" official if she won't stay onboard or on-message about it, or there's talk swirling around that she was coerced?
Again, this is not only ugly but complicated. As I said in my follow-up post, it seems like the cleanest thing legally would be for family to have her declared legally incompetent (assuming she meets the standards) but surely everyone around her wants to avoid the humiliating spectacle of literally forcing her out. So yeah, I guess that's where everyone's fee-fees come in.
I think if she had a family who cared about this, if they removed her from DC to Calif it would no longer be America's problem. But I don't know all the arcane self-inflating rules Congress has, nor do I know Calif law.
She would need to send an unambiguous letter of resignation, likely to the Vice President and other particulars in the Senate. Once she does so, she’s out. This is not a reversible decision.
Well, in a word—exactly. My example was meant to illustrate what happens if Feinstein's family tries to "step up" (as someone posted above) but she isn't onboard. They really can't do some kind of end-run around official procedure to nudge her out while saving her dignity. Assuming she's not declared legally incompetent, SHE has to be the one to write (or at least sign) that letter of resignation... and how do you get her to do that if she still firmly believes (in her sadly addled mind) that she's capable and has no desire to step down?
That's why this is all a lot more complicated than "how could her family let her publicly disintegrate like this (while also depriving her constituents of a competent senator)?" The bottom line is that if she won't be convinced, there's nothing they can actually DO—short of having her declared incompetent, as I've discussed.
Yeah. We’re probably stuck with her until her term ends, unless she actually dies. The only silver lining to that is that she’s got less than two years left in her term.
I hope the OTHER silver lining is that, once Feinstein is out of office (so it doesn't blatantly appear to be about her) maybe we'll have some chance at a rules change to guard against this sort of thing. I don't know which option is most sellable to lawmakers: age limits? term limits? some trigger that kicks you out if you miss a certain number of days? some 25th-Amendment-like option to address mental incompetence? There are enough fellow geezers in Congress that I envision resistance to most or all of those.
But I think Feinstein will prove to be an object lesson for a lot of them. Legislatively, no one wants the problems Democrats had while she was absent and couldn't vote on judicial nominations.
And... I HOPE this will prompt a more personal reckoning too. I hope lawmakers will look at her and decide they don't want to end up the same way: publicly falling apart and too senile to know they need to quit.
It took FDR's death to give us term limits for presidents. He was the object lesson that showed how staying president indefinitely is a bad idea. Maybe Feinstein's decline can serve a similar purpose.
Following on that thought... it seems like the sort of "nuclear option" would be for family members to have her declared legally incompetent so someone could become her guardian and actually *could* make legally binding decisions for her. But that too is ugly and humiliating, and bet her loved ones are hoping to avoid that at almost any cost... including just letting her ride out the rest of her Senate term. There's this combination of squeamishness and respect (for the person she used to be) that will make it incredibly hard for anyone to take action... and all too tempting to keep hoping against hope that the situation resolves itself some other way.
I get L.A. Times headlines delivered to my email. The blurb included with the headline about Feinsteins’s return made no mention at all about her state of confusion. Possibly it’s in the full story, but to me, that IS the story.
Pretty sure you are on the mark.
Where are you getting that the Senate needs to approve the appointment? I didn't do an exhaustive search, but I'm not finding that requirement.
You are correct. Newsom’s appointment can be seated without a vote. I deleted my comment. What I was reading (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-04-30/feinstein-senate-shingles-retirement-resignation) was a section pertaining to committee assignments, which Republicans have already indicated that they would hamper. Apologies.