A former MAGA influencer who saw the underbelly of the immense power and wealth around this administration says never-Trumpers should show compassion for people who are now feeling betrayed by him—and who are starting to have second thoughts about the cult they joined.
This is so valuable, hearing someone who was in the inner circle but reached a moment of conscience. She is still young but her story reveals elements of the right's system that make sense to me for the first time.
Wow, Ashley is incredibly smart and wise - especially for her age. Big kudos to her for getting out.
The one big exception I take to what she said is her position that people who chose to support T despite to all available evidence re how depraved and dangerous he is were victims: "It is a cult, and what you have to understand is in any abusive relationship, right, your access to other people, you're very isolated. Your access to information is cut off. Your access to people who might have... you know, rational thoughts about what you're involved in. You're cut off from that as well. So what you have to understand is these people, you know, they're told it's fake news. All of this is fake news. The only thing you can trust is Twitter and Truth Social. And for better or worse, they actually believe that to an extent. They believe that these esteemed outlets are lying to them, that nothing they put out can be true."
Now I don't know any of the details of her relationship w/ Elon, and if he physically and/or emotionally controlled her that's completely different.
But if she's talking generally about the cult of T, no. It sounds like Sarah: the poor innocent voters had no choice what info they exposed themselves to or what they chose to believe. We all had access to the same info. Tim was right to push back and point out how repeatedly obvious the facts were.
Agreed. I do think many of the more extreme MAGA folks are in a sort of abusive cult. But that's probably not even the majority of Trump voters, though it may be the type of people that St. Clair knew. The majority of his voters just didn't came up with various reasons to ignore negative consequences, and are therefore potentially more morally culpable than the more extreme MAGAs.
Fantastic interview with Ashley St. Clair. You handled the difficult questions with compassion and her answers were thoughtful and honest. It helped to understand how an intelligent person can get sucked in to the lies.
Tim, you asked all the right questions (with kindness) in this very important interview with Ashley St. Clair (I haven't listened to Cam's yet). Hopefully, this interview will get out to the MAHA world. As we see it unravel, the power behind belonging (to any group, but especially MAHA) in today's world of lost community is psychologically fierce. As our political parties dissolve/reform, the evolution of her maturing is something people of any age should consider, underscored by the humility and growth required to admit mistakes, and then think independently and with clarity about all the important issues we are facing. We have opportunities in this crisis to move towards more unity. Ashley has developed the resolve it takes to break through her past, and our nation is better for it. Wishing her the best as she seeks to serve our country. It is refreshing to witness the joy both you and she derive from being parents--this positive force could be seeding our superpower. Let's become a nation that truly cares about children and good character, and shift our system away from extreme capitalism.
Man, I am a Maine voter and also a former enlisted Marine. Cam's narrative for Platner is a bit annoying to me. Redemptive arcs are defined not by vibes, but by real actions. Sure, men can change and I applaud them when they do. But you have to serve your community in some capacity with real actions in order to prove that you have had a change of heart. You have to take accountability and really understand the hurt your rhetoric caused real human beings (like what Ashley did). Anyone can say anything on a campaign trail when they want to be the next Senator from Maine. I have real questions about Platner's authenticity and judgment as well as his motivations. He doesn't have a history of public service in Maine, not on any real level. He doesn't have a history of advocating for or supporting servicewomen (or any other rape victims). Now he says he has changed, which could be true, but it also could be that he is trying to get a Senate seat out of it and needs women voters. So basically, he's asking that I believe what he is saying now, when it benefits him, and not what he said before when he was shit talking on reddit to his buddies about how any "whisper of a misplaced hand" would end someone's career and therefore sexual assault in the military (and the way they were handled) wasn’t really a problem.
Cam is also missing important context for why Platner was posting the stuff he did about military assaults and rape victims in 2012. At that time, there were some really courageous servicewomen who were pushing for greater accountability and protections for victims of sexual harassment and assault. That's why there was discourse among veterans on Reddit. A documentary uncovering the difficulty American servicewomen faced in getting justice when they were raped or harassed in uniform had come out. His posts were directly dismissing their push for justice and accountability.
Maine's voters skew much older than the rest of the country. Angus King was reelected last year at 80, I think. The base of the Democratic electorate here are older women. The reason Collins squeaked by last time is largely because older women voted for her over Gideon (who was seen as an outsider). It's a weird state, to be honest. It's extremely difficult to poll. Young progressives like him. I don't know how he's doing with other groups. Collins will be difficult to beat no matter who goes against her...she may seem unpopular, but a number of people look at her as the reason Maine hasn't been as punished by the Trump admin as it would have been.
Earlier this week, Dolores Huerta revealed the abuse that she suffered under Cesar Chavez. She kept silent to protect the farm workers' movement she had dedicated her life to. We see that nobody has really been held accountable for the horrific abuse perpetrated by Epstein and his friends. You know what underpins all of that? The type of attitude Platner has in his posts. That women are lying and using rape allegations as a way to get attention or to absolve themselves of poor decisions.That women make it up. It's what kept some of my friends from reporting the assaults they endured while in uniform. They had PTSD too, for multiple reasons.
Anyone can say they are sorry or changed when it benefits them. We are told time and again to forgive men (and I do believe people can change and learn), but forgiveness comes with atonement. Platner should have run for a state house or senate seat knowing what he knew about his past beliefs and prolific posting. It's so disheartening to me that men can do so much damage so casually and thoughtlessly and we are always expected to forgive them when they show the bare minimum of contrition. To me, that's what separates Ashley from Platner.
Remember when we were young and could FAFO while our frontal cortexes were still developing in private? I feel bad for the kids experiencing the hubris of youth out loud in social media and having to deal with the consequences later. Ashley St. Clair has obviously learned and grown from it.
I really liked Ashley and I am glad she is out of the cult. Doing the right thing is never wrong and while it's late it takes a big person to do what she did.
I liked her, as well, and I am glad Tim brought her on for an interview.
I recall saying to my husband, “What woman would ever get mixed up with MAGA-fied Elon Musk? No woman in their right mind should touch a man that rich and crazy!”
Hearing her speak, she reminds me so much of my oldest niece. With how much young adults are online nowadays, I can easily see her being dazzled by the acceptance of the MAGA movement.
It is hard to reassess one’s opinions and prior behavior. Ms. St. Clair is showing growth in character, by publicly admitting her change of heart.
I hope people are kind to her and allow her some grace. Her youthful folly has sentenced her to a life of co-parenting with Elon Musk - that, in and of itself, is a hard lesson!
Tim’s conversation with Ashley St. Clair demonstrates how most Americans are good people. Sometimes people make mistakes resulting in horrible consequences, such is what we are living through. We can still come together to form a more perfect union. If we don’t the dark side wins.
Cam’s explanation on Platner was very thoughtful & persuasive. Social media is making purity tests obsolete. No one can claim to be perfect if they have ever been on social media, especially as a young person.
I don’t know why the Bulwark is platforming Cam, who’s an activist with an agenda, to explain how terrible things are in the West Bank, when this was his first trip outside the U.S. Rather than having Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, India or Italy as points of reference, he can only compare the West Bank to New York or Florida.
And I say this as probably the only person in the world who’s got a lot more sympathy for those in the West Bank than those in Gaza. What the Israeli government has been doing and not doing there is messed up and does appear to be a way to slowly squeeze the Palestinians out.
Maybe bring less activists and more experts from Israel or the Palestinian Territories who are able to bring more insight than Israel good Palestine bad or Palestine good Israel bad.
Fantastic discussion. So (SO) critical for women to maintain economic autonomy, meaning the ability to earn a living. Absolutely crucial. Too many women are at the mercy of their men. So grateful she pointed out how difficult it is to start from scratch after a devastating change in circumstances. Kudos to her for doing the hard things again and again!!
Ashley was fantastic, great interview as always Tim. It is not easy to do what she's done.
I mostly enjoy Cameron Kaskyn content. I try to like him. The way he pronounced "Gaza" made me want to vote Likud. But the guy needs to settle down and focus on something. The Congressional run lasted, what, ten minutes? And all because he went on a trip to Israel during it and found out that things are bad in the West Bank? Ok.
This is so valuable, hearing someone who was in the inner circle but reached a moment of conscience. She is still young but her story reveals elements of the right's system that make sense to me for the first time.
Wow, Ashley is incredibly smart and wise - especially for her age. Big kudos to her for getting out.
The one big exception I take to what she said is her position that people who chose to support T despite to all available evidence re how depraved and dangerous he is were victims: "It is a cult, and what you have to understand is in any abusive relationship, right, your access to other people, you're very isolated. Your access to information is cut off. Your access to people who might have... you know, rational thoughts about what you're involved in. You're cut off from that as well. So what you have to understand is these people, you know, they're told it's fake news. All of this is fake news. The only thing you can trust is Twitter and Truth Social. And for better or worse, they actually believe that to an extent. They believe that these esteemed outlets are lying to them, that nothing they put out can be true."
Now I don't know any of the details of her relationship w/ Elon, and if he physically and/or emotionally controlled her that's completely different.
But if she's talking generally about the cult of T, no. It sounds like Sarah: the poor innocent voters had no choice what info they exposed themselves to or what they chose to believe. We all had access to the same info. Tim was right to push back and point out how repeatedly obvious the facts were.
Agreed. I do think many of the more extreme MAGA folks are in a sort of abusive cult. But that's probably not even the majority of Trump voters, though it may be the type of people that St. Clair knew. The majority of his voters just didn't came up with various reasons to ignore negative consequences, and are therefore potentially more morally culpable than the more extreme MAGAs.
I skipped the Olivia Nuzzi episode and was SO close to doing the same thing here with Ashley St. Clair. Glad I didn't.
Great show. It's not too long if it's all good.
Fantastic interview with Ashley St. Clair. You handled the difficult questions with compassion and her answers were thoughtful and honest. It helped to understand how an intelligent person can get sucked in to the lies.
My favorite example of a man being able to change is Barack Obama's stance on gay marriage.
Tim, you asked all the right questions (with kindness) in this very important interview with Ashley St. Clair (I haven't listened to Cam's yet). Hopefully, this interview will get out to the MAHA world. As we see it unravel, the power behind belonging (to any group, but especially MAHA) in today's world of lost community is psychologically fierce. As our political parties dissolve/reform, the evolution of her maturing is something people of any age should consider, underscored by the humility and growth required to admit mistakes, and then think independently and with clarity about all the important issues we are facing. We have opportunities in this crisis to move towards more unity. Ashley has developed the resolve it takes to break through her past, and our nation is better for it. Wishing her the best as she seeks to serve our country. It is refreshing to witness the joy both you and she derive from being parents--this positive force could be seeding our superpower. Let's become a nation that truly cares about children and good character, and shift our system away from extreme capitalism.
Man, I am a Maine voter and also a former enlisted Marine. Cam's narrative for Platner is a bit annoying to me. Redemptive arcs are defined not by vibes, but by real actions. Sure, men can change and I applaud them when they do. But you have to serve your community in some capacity with real actions in order to prove that you have had a change of heart. You have to take accountability and really understand the hurt your rhetoric caused real human beings (like what Ashley did). Anyone can say anything on a campaign trail when they want to be the next Senator from Maine. I have real questions about Platner's authenticity and judgment as well as his motivations. He doesn't have a history of public service in Maine, not on any real level. He doesn't have a history of advocating for or supporting servicewomen (or any other rape victims). Now he says he has changed, which could be true, but it also could be that he is trying to get a Senate seat out of it and needs women voters. So basically, he's asking that I believe what he is saying now, when it benefits him, and not what he said before when he was shit talking on reddit to his buddies about how any "whisper of a misplaced hand" would end someone's career and therefore sexual assault in the military (and the way they were handled) wasn’t really a problem.
Cam is also missing important context for why Platner was posting the stuff he did about military assaults and rape victims in 2012. At that time, there were some really courageous servicewomen who were pushing for greater accountability and protections for victims of sexual harassment and assault. That's why there was discourse among veterans on Reddit. A documentary uncovering the difficulty American servicewomen faced in getting justice when they were raped or harassed in uniform had come out. His posts were directly dismissing their push for justice and accountability.
Maine's voters skew much older than the rest of the country. Angus King was reelected last year at 80, I think. The base of the Democratic electorate here are older women. The reason Collins squeaked by last time is largely because older women voted for her over Gideon (who was seen as an outsider). It's a weird state, to be honest. It's extremely difficult to poll. Young progressives like him. I don't know how he's doing with other groups. Collins will be difficult to beat no matter who goes against her...she may seem unpopular, but a number of people look at her as the reason Maine hasn't been as punished by the Trump admin as it would have been.
Earlier this week, Dolores Huerta revealed the abuse that she suffered under Cesar Chavez. She kept silent to protect the farm workers' movement she had dedicated her life to. We see that nobody has really been held accountable for the horrific abuse perpetrated by Epstein and his friends. You know what underpins all of that? The type of attitude Platner has in his posts. That women are lying and using rape allegations as a way to get attention or to absolve themselves of poor decisions.That women make it up. It's what kept some of my friends from reporting the assaults they endured while in uniform. They had PTSD too, for multiple reasons.
Anyone can say they are sorry or changed when it benefits them. We are told time and again to forgive men (and I do believe people can change and learn), but forgiveness comes with atonement. Platner should have run for a state house or senate seat knowing what he knew about his past beliefs and prolific posting. It's so disheartening to me that men can do so much damage so casually and thoughtlessly and we are always expected to forgive them when they show the bare minimum of contrition. To me, that's what separates Ashley from Platner.
Remember when we were young and could FAFO while our frontal cortexes were still developing in private? I feel bad for the kids experiencing the hubris of youth out loud in social media and having to deal with the consequences later. Ashley St. Clair has obviously learned and grown from it.
I really liked Ashley and I am glad she is out of the cult. Doing the right thing is never wrong and while it's late it takes a big person to do what she did.
I liked her, as well, and I am glad Tim brought her on for an interview.
I recall saying to my husband, “What woman would ever get mixed up with MAGA-fied Elon Musk? No woman in their right mind should touch a man that rich and crazy!”
Hearing her speak, she reminds me so much of my oldest niece. With how much young adults are online nowadays, I can easily see her being dazzled by the acceptance of the MAGA movement.
It is hard to reassess one’s opinions and prior behavior. Ms. St. Clair is showing growth in character, by publicly admitting her change of heart.
I hope people are kind to her and allow her some grace. Her youthful folly has sentenced her to a life of co-parenting with Elon Musk - that, in and of itself, is a hard lesson!
Tim’s conversation with Ashley St. Clair demonstrates how most Americans are good people. Sometimes people make mistakes resulting in horrible consequences, such is what we are living through. We can still come together to form a more perfect union. If we don’t the dark side wins.
Cam’s explanation on Platner was very thoughtful & persuasive. Social media is making purity tests obsolete. No one can claim to be perfect if they have ever been on social media, especially as a young person.
I don’t know why the Bulwark is platforming Cam, who’s an activist with an agenda, to explain how terrible things are in the West Bank, when this was his first trip outside the U.S. Rather than having Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, India or Italy as points of reference, he can only compare the West Bank to New York or Florida.
And I say this as probably the only person in the world who’s got a lot more sympathy for those in the West Bank than those in Gaza. What the Israeli government has been doing and not doing there is messed up and does appear to be a way to slowly squeeze the Palestinians out.
Maybe bring less activists and more experts from Israel or the Palestinian Territories who are able to bring more insight than Israel good Palestine bad or Palestine good Israel bad.
This interview gave me hope. Thanks. I needed that!
Fantastic discussion. So (SO) critical for women to maintain economic autonomy, meaning the ability to earn a living. Absolutely crucial. Too many women are at the mercy of their men. So grateful she pointed out how difficult it is to start from scratch after a devastating change in circumstances. Kudos to her for doing the hard things again and again!!
Ashley was fantastic, great interview as always Tim. It is not easy to do what she's done.
I mostly enjoy Cameron Kaskyn content. I try to like him. The way he pronounced "Gaza" made me want to vote Likud. But the guy needs to settle down and focus on something. The Congressional run lasted, what, ten minutes? And all because he went on a trip to Israel during it and found out that things are bad in the West Bank? Ok.
I ended my listening as soon as Cam entered with "What the Fs up?"