We can all agree to disagree about the efficacy and appropriateness of puberty-blockers and HRT, which is really an area for doctors to give their expertise.
That said, discussing gender identity in classrooms effects everyone’s kids. Trans-youth in girls/women’s sports would make those sports be taken even less seriously than they alread…
We can all agree to disagree about the efficacy and appropriateness of puberty-blockers and HRT, which is really an area for doctors to give their expertise.
That said, discussing gender identity in classrooms effects everyone’s kids. Trans-youth in girls/women’s sports would make those sports be taken even less seriously than they already are. Abolishing the gender binary and eliminating sex-segregated spaces like bathrooms effects everyone.
The trans-movement has very real policy goals they want to enact that go way beyond “just wanting to exist” as some social progressives argue and those issues absolutely matter. The question of who is a man/woman is fundamental and existential with far reaching legal and constitutional implications. It’s not just some trivial “culture war nonsense” with no implications for the rest of us.
Can you clarify the gender identity discussions in classrooms bit some more? Like if there is a trans cold in a class and they go over their pronouns or their new name as they make a social transition, is that a discussion about gender identity?
Too many people don't realize that not everyone is genetically male/female. When babies were born that didn't appear quite male or female doctors would get parents to agree to surgery after deciding what sex the baby should be. Now with genetic testing there are so many variables that were unknown before. From an article in the Washington Post: "Well, not entirely. Because not every person with a Y chromosome is male, and not every person with a double X is female. The world is full of people with other combinations: XXY (or Klinefelter Syndrome), XXX (or Trisomy X), XXXY and so on. There’s even something called androgen insensitivity syndrome, a condition that keeps the brains of people with a Y from absorbing the information in that chromosome. Most of these people develop as female and might not even know about their condition until puberty — or even later." I watched a documentary not long ago regarding this very issue and it was eye opening. When people don't have the knowledge about these medical situations they can be convinced that people are just deciding to be transgender when there are other factors in play.
Even more common than genetic deviations are radical swings in hormone development in utero which - at least as of today - the science is building a fairly compelling body of evidence showing just how genital biology and neurobiological orientation to gender can become misaligned.
I’d just point out that it’s a bit of a misnomer to use terms like “trans movement”, as if it were some kind of monolithic hive mind. Like those pushing the narrative from the right, often the left-most edge of the trans community garners the lions share of coverage, re: athletics and classroom awareness.
I have trans friends who agree that - especially with male-to-female transition - the impact on competitive athletics needs to be discussed. It seems pretty clear that in the Lia Thomas case, for example, 20 years of testosterone benefit was not mitigated by 18 mos of HRT and, imo, everyone involved suffered from the NCAA not having a thought-out policy and that vocal element of the community making such conversations challenging.
That said, I find the idea that it’s the end of sport and/or society if a 9yo trans-identifying child plays community sports with their identified gender ridiculous.
It’s all valid to discuss without, you know, stepping on the rights of parents of a hyper-minority of children who are trying their best for their kids along with their doctors.
I’m sure there is disagreement among people in the trans movement. I’m just saying it’s disingenuous to pretend that the movement/policy agenda doesn’t exist at all. That trans-people just want to exist and not be discriminated against, which is not true. It’s like when liberals say “LGBTQ+” as if those groups are all the same and all want the same thing from society, when in reality sexual orientation issues and gender issues are very different.
Regarding kids sports, I mean sure, and with regards to community sports leagues, even for adults, I personally don’t care if trans people are allowed to play. I just don’t think they should be allowed in competitive sports like High School, College, Professional, etc..
Considering the fact that there are broad efforts to “other” transgender youth and adults in this country, it’s not the trans community that has an agenda.
I guess what I’m saying is: I personally have not seen/heard of a transgender agenda calling for the teaching of transgenderism in grade schools etc; I HAVE witnessed anti-trans groups promote and pass laws saying no trans person, age notwithstanding, should be able to get the healthcare they and their doctors have determined is necessary.
As someone who originally came from a fairly stark pro-life background, I do not see any comparable moral imperative one could argue makes keeping a grown ass adult - as patient or parent - from pursuing such care. YMMV.
At the risk of sounding priggish, this remark does not strike me as striking the tone that the Bulwark encourages in its commenters. Plenty of other places to go for this.
Harsh. It's only being publicized because some god-damned Republican politicians can get the non-thinking mob angered enough to use THIS topic as a reason to pick them in their red district primary (most of our country's districts for the House are single party districts with no viable opposition).This has forced the national Democratic party to respond to the publicity and sensationalism and , with assholes like Desantis, extremism by creating a counter-argument to what shouldn't even be an issue in most people's political priorities in the first place. And good luck presenting a counter that doesn't seem to promote a life or lifestyle that most people were content to address as 'live and let live' before the bottomless pit of Republican political seekers saw its mob-exciting potential.
You’re clearly not interested in a rational discussion so I’m not going to give you one.
All I’m going to say is that saying “I’m right, you’re a bigot” in response to differing opinions on an extraordinarily controversial set of issues, as demonstrated by the polls Charlie cited, is a large part of the sentiment that pushes people to support Trump. I voted for Hillary/Biden and will continue to do so and the Trump deadenders are obviously a lost cause, but this kind of lack of respectful dialogue makes otherwise persuadable people want to say “screw you, I’m voting for Trump”.
But by all means, ignore the ABC/WaPo poll showing Trump and DeSantis both clobbering Biden and keep singing that tune. I’m sure it will persuade somebody.
We can all agree to disagree about the efficacy and appropriateness of puberty-blockers and HRT, which is really an area for doctors to give their expertise.
That said, discussing gender identity in classrooms effects everyone’s kids. Trans-youth in girls/women’s sports would make those sports be taken even less seriously than they already are. Abolishing the gender binary and eliminating sex-segregated spaces like bathrooms effects everyone.
The trans-movement has very real policy goals they want to enact that go way beyond “just wanting to exist” as some social progressives argue and those issues absolutely matter. The question of who is a man/woman is fundamental and existential with far reaching legal and constitutional implications. It’s not just some trivial “culture war nonsense” with no implications for the rest of us.
Can you clarify the gender identity discussions in classrooms bit some more? Like if there is a trans cold in a class and they go over their pronouns or their new name as they make a social transition, is that a discussion about gender identity?
Too many people don't realize that not everyone is genetically male/female. When babies were born that didn't appear quite male or female doctors would get parents to agree to surgery after deciding what sex the baby should be. Now with genetic testing there are so many variables that were unknown before. From an article in the Washington Post: "Well, not entirely. Because not every person with a Y chromosome is male, and not every person with a double X is female. The world is full of people with other combinations: XXY (or Klinefelter Syndrome), XXX (or Trisomy X), XXXY and so on. There’s even something called androgen insensitivity syndrome, a condition that keeps the brains of people with a Y from absorbing the information in that chromosome. Most of these people develop as female and might not even know about their condition until puberty — or even later." I watched a documentary not long ago regarding this very issue and it was eye opening. When people don't have the knowledge about these medical situations they can be convinced that people are just deciding to be transgender when there are other factors in play.
Even more common than genetic deviations are radical swings in hormone development in utero which - at least as of today - the science is building a fairly compelling body of evidence showing just how genital biology and neurobiological orientation to gender can become misaligned.
I’d just point out that it’s a bit of a misnomer to use terms like “trans movement”, as if it were some kind of monolithic hive mind. Like those pushing the narrative from the right, often the left-most edge of the trans community garners the lions share of coverage, re: athletics and classroom awareness.
I have trans friends who agree that - especially with male-to-female transition - the impact on competitive athletics needs to be discussed. It seems pretty clear that in the Lia Thomas case, for example, 20 years of testosterone benefit was not mitigated by 18 mos of HRT and, imo, everyone involved suffered from the NCAA not having a thought-out policy and that vocal element of the community making such conversations challenging.
That said, I find the idea that it’s the end of sport and/or society if a 9yo trans-identifying child plays community sports with their identified gender ridiculous.
It’s all valid to discuss without, you know, stepping on the rights of parents of a hyper-minority of children who are trying their best for their kids along with their doctors.
I’m sure there is disagreement among people in the trans movement. I’m just saying it’s disingenuous to pretend that the movement/policy agenda doesn’t exist at all. That trans-people just want to exist and not be discriminated against, which is not true. It’s like when liberals say “LGBTQ+” as if those groups are all the same and all want the same thing from society, when in reality sexual orientation issues and gender issues are very different.
Regarding kids sports, I mean sure, and with regards to community sports leagues, even for adults, I personally don’t care if trans people are allowed to play. I just don’t think they should be allowed in competitive sports like High School, College, Professional, etc..
Considering the fact that there are broad efforts to “other” transgender youth and adults in this country, it’s not the trans community that has an agenda.
I guess what I’m saying is: I personally have not seen/heard of a transgender agenda calling for the teaching of transgenderism in grade schools etc; I HAVE witnessed anti-trans groups promote and pass laws saying no trans person, age notwithstanding, should be able to get the healthcare they and their doctors have determined is necessary.
As someone who originally came from a fairly stark pro-life background, I do not see any comparable moral imperative one could argue makes keeping a grown ass adult - as patient or parent - from pursuing such care. YMMV.
At the risk of sounding priggish, this remark does not strike me as striking the tone that the Bulwark encourages in its commenters. Plenty of other places to go for this.
Harsh. It's only being publicized because some god-damned Republican politicians can get the non-thinking mob angered enough to use THIS topic as a reason to pick them in their red district primary (most of our country's districts for the House are single party districts with no viable opposition).This has forced the national Democratic party to respond to the publicity and sensationalism and , with assholes like Desantis, extremism by creating a counter-argument to what shouldn't even be an issue in most people's political priorities in the first place. And good luck presenting a counter that doesn't seem to promote a life or lifestyle that most people were content to address as 'live and let live' before the bottomless pit of Republican political seekers saw its mob-exciting potential.
Very persuasive. I can see you’ve put a lot of thought into this.
You’re clearly not interested in a rational discussion so I’m not going to give you one.
All I’m going to say is that saying “I’m right, you’re a bigot” in response to differing opinions on an extraordinarily controversial set of issues, as demonstrated by the polls Charlie cited, is a large part of the sentiment that pushes people to support Trump. I voted for Hillary/Biden and will continue to do so and the Trump deadenders are obviously a lost cause, but this kind of lack of respectful dialogue makes otherwise persuadable people want to say “screw you, I’m voting for Trump”.
But by all means, ignore the ABC/WaPo poll showing Trump and DeSantis both clobbering Biden and keep singing that tune. I’m sure it will persuade somebody.