This week on Bulwark on Sunday, Tom Joscelyn joined Bill Kristol to discuss the centrality of conspiracy theories to MAGA and Trumpism, and what that means for the extremism being unconstrained.
I thought Alex Jones was shut down and bankrupt from his conspiracy theories surrounding Sandy Hook Elementary shooting. I presume he has been uplifted by the right since he’s such a powerful conspiracy voice. Ugh. 😩
Great discussion and damn it they used everything on the internet as talking points for the election and won! I notice it constantly that all of these conspiracy theories have taken the minds of those I argue with every day on FB. It is infuriating that they don't see it or believe anything you put right in their face!
13:00 minutes in I've stopped to write my theory: I think what happened to Vance (and I think this because I think he is a pretty intelligent guy) is that because he figured out the the belief in craziness was so pervasive, and that it likely was increasing, he came to the conclusion that the American populace was actually not capable of making the kinds of rational decisions needed to participate in a democracy. It turned him into one of these folks who believe in dictatorship a la Peter Thiel: the people who are intelligent and knowledgeable should be the ones making decisions. After that leap of political philosophy, it is easy to see that people's propensity to believe conspiracy theories can be used to manipulate them, therefore can be used to get yourself put in power. Trump is a weirdo-mentally-unstable-chaos-machine. People think, oh it's a cult of personality and once Trump is gone, MAGA will crumble, but I don't think so. Vance is smart, capable, manipulative, and brutal, and I think he is way more dangerous to our democracy than Trump.
Agree that Vance is dangerous, but I still think he doesn’t have the charisma that Trump has, and therefore will never get the votes or the following that Trump has. During the campaign, almost no one came to Vance’s public events, whereas Trump had big crowds watching him do nothing on stage for 30 to 40 minutes but sway-dance. Trump rallies were almost giant social events, parties. Vance events are boring. Unless people are forced to sit in an auditorium and listen to him (Munich Security Conference) they won’t do it. Look what happened in Greenland. Admittedly the locals hate him and Usha, but look at the photo of him eating lunch with the US soldiers on the military base he visited. They look like hostages, like prisoners, terrified that they have been forced to sit at the same table with this guy. When Trump is gone, Vance is done for. He will have sold his soul for nothing.
I agree. Vance might be more dangerous IF he had Trump's massive cult of personality, but he does not and never will. He is not charismatic, popular, or likable. The MAGAs won't storm the Capital for him. If it were Vance doing all the same destructive things Trump is doing now, even if he kept saying "this is what Trump wanted," MAGA would turn on him far more quickly once it started affecting their lives and livelihoods.
Trump is a singular figure with his cult and can't be easily replaced. More likely they won't be able to replace him at all and MAGA will break down into squabbling factions once he is gone.
I too have been thinking of what happens when Trump is gone from the scene. I lean towards your thoughts, Sami. A big part of Trump's power/appeal is his showmanship and entertainment ability. I don't think there's anyone else in MAGALand that has that capability on Trump's level and so there could well be some fragmenting of "Trumpism" once the God King is gone (and on his way to Hades, I hope).
January 6th will be remembered as our Beerhall Putsch. A direct threat to democracy led by a traitorous president that went unpunished. I always thought that Biden was our Hindenburg, an old chivalrous man, who was completely out of touch with this new reality. Trump and his comrades should have been subjected to a public trial. What's particularly poisonous is the way this movement has sacralized itself into a form of millennialism that we'll all live to regret.
Boy, what an eye-opener. As some others have stated, this should be required viewing.
On that note, I find myself frustrated that such excellent analysis no doubt escapes those who really need to hear it, namely, Trump supporters, Republican members of Congress, etc. I especially wish that the latter would be directly confronted with these facts by their Democratic colleagues and the press.
Thank you for a Debbie Downer podcast that needs to be heard by everyone. I really appreciated the commentary to connect the dots on conspiracies . These people are nuts but very scary. Great podcast.
Trump spent his whole life trying to make news in the tabloids. So it’s no surprise to me that he saw the power and influence of the big tabloid papers, which of course dealt primarily in disinformation and conspiracy long before the internet.
Someone close to me had a (good, positive) story published about them in National Enquirer in the 90s. That was the first time I really paid attention to the supermarket tabloids and I was stunned to learn that the National Enquirer was one of the top most read papers in the country (I think they ranked third?).
So the widespread appeal of disinformation and conspiracy started long before Trump. As a creature of the tabloids, he probably understood this long before most everyone else around him and was able to capitalize on it.
Yes, Trump was a regular in the tabloids. I remember endless "stories" on whether Trump would leave Ivana to marry Marla Maples. As if anyone gave a rat's A. But there he was, pumping himself into the country's consciousness long before "social media." Lifelong self-promoting ass.
What often goes unsaid is that even when Trump and his henchmen are gone, we still have corporate greed and corruption that seeps into both sides of the political aisle. This
Awesome job
YIKES! 😱 Is right.
I thought Alex Jones was shut down and bankrupt from his conspiracy theories surrounding Sandy Hook Elementary shooting. I presume he has been uplifted by the right since he’s such a powerful conspiracy voice. Ugh. 😩
Keep up the pressure. You are really putting meaning to "The Bulwark."
They’re not leaving!
They’re Putin-izing elections!
Homans and Nome, American Sturmabteilung.
Trumpler always an agitator, victim, exaggerator, liar, finger pointer, racist, camera whore.
Now, the fully bloomed version of those seeds; dark-hearted, dead-eyed, sociopathic cartoon villain.
I agree Thomas, social media and internet have broken civilization.
Very frightening times. Unsure how we pull away from this.
Unfolding precisely as forecast in the 90’s by Carl Sagan.
Read “Demon Haunted World”
And here we are…
Does Thomas have a page or site where we can follow him?
Great discussion and damn it they used everything on the internet as talking points for the election and won! I notice it constantly that all of these conspiracy theories have taken the minds of those I argue with every day on FB. It is infuriating that they don't see it or believe anything you put right in their face!
13:00 minutes in I've stopped to write my theory: I think what happened to Vance (and I think this because I think he is a pretty intelligent guy) is that because he figured out the the belief in craziness was so pervasive, and that it likely was increasing, he came to the conclusion that the American populace was actually not capable of making the kinds of rational decisions needed to participate in a democracy. It turned him into one of these folks who believe in dictatorship a la Peter Thiel: the people who are intelligent and knowledgeable should be the ones making decisions. After that leap of political philosophy, it is easy to see that people's propensity to believe conspiracy theories can be used to manipulate them, therefore can be used to get yourself put in power. Trump is a weirdo-mentally-unstable-chaos-machine. People think, oh it's a cult of personality and once Trump is gone, MAGA will crumble, but I don't think so. Vance is smart, capable, manipulative, and brutal, and I think he is way more dangerous to our democracy than Trump.
Agree that Vance is dangerous, but I still think he doesn’t have the charisma that Trump has, and therefore will never get the votes or the following that Trump has. During the campaign, almost no one came to Vance’s public events, whereas Trump had big crowds watching him do nothing on stage for 30 to 40 minutes but sway-dance. Trump rallies were almost giant social events, parties. Vance events are boring. Unless people are forced to sit in an auditorium and listen to him (Munich Security Conference) they won’t do it. Look what happened in Greenland. Admittedly the locals hate him and Usha, but look at the photo of him eating lunch with the US soldiers on the military base he visited. They look like hostages, like prisoners, terrified that they have been forced to sit at the same table with this guy. When Trump is gone, Vance is done for. He will have sold his soul for nothing.
Interesting thoughts. I hope you both are right.
I agree. Vance might be more dangerous IF he had Trump's massive cult of personality, but he does not and never will. He is not charismatic, popular, or likable. The MAGAs won't storm the Capital for him. If it were Vance doing all the same destructive things Trump is doing now, even if he kept saying "this is what Trump wanted," MAGA would turn on him far more quickly once it started affecting their lives and livelihoods.
Trump is a singular figure with his cult and can't be easily replaced. More likely they won't be able to replace him at all and MAGA will break down into squabbling factions once he is gone.
I too have been thinking of what happens when Trump is gone from the scene. I lean towards your thoughts, Sami. A big part of Trump's power/appeal is his showmanship and entertainment ability. I don't think there's anyone else in MAGALand that has that capability on Trump's level and so there could well be some fragmenting of "Trumpism" once the God King is gone (and on his way to Hades, I hope).
Please have Tom Joscelyn on often...
Agreed. Really compelling. Would like to ask Tom what if anything breaks the hold of these conspiracies?
January 6th will be remembered as our Beerhall Putsch. A direct threat to democracy led by a traitorous president that went unpunished. I always thought that Biden was our Hindenburg, an old chivalrous man, who was completely out of touch with this new reality. Trump and his comrades should have been subjected to a public trial. What's particularly poisonous is the way this movement has sacralized itself into a form of millennialism that we'll all live to regret.
Biden as Hindenburg is perceptive.
Yes, what a sad predictive metaphor that turned out to be.
lol oh gosh I didn't even think of that!
Boy, what an eye-opener. As some others have stated, this should be required viewing.
On that note, I find myself frustrated that such excellent analysis no doubt escapes those who really need to hear it, namely, Trump supporters, Republican members of Congress, etc. I especially wish that the latter would be directly confronted with these facts by their Democratic colleagues and the press.
Thank you for a Debbie Downer podcast that needs to be heard by everyone. I really appreciated the commentary to connect the dots on conspiracies . These people are nuts but very scary. Great podcast.
Trump spent his whole life trying to make news in the tabloids. So it’s no surprise to me that he saw the power and influence of the big tabloid papers, which of course dealt primarily in disinformation and conspiracy long before the internet.
Someone close to me had a (good, positive) story published about them in National Enquirer in the 90s. That was the first time I really paid attention to the supermarket tabloids and I was stunned to learn that the National Enquirer was one of the top most read papers in the country (I think they ranked third?).
So the widespread appeal of disinformation and conspiracy started long before Trump. As a creature of the tabloids, he probably understood this long before most everyone else around him and was able to capitalize on it.
Yes, Trump was a regular in the tabloids. I remember endless "stories" on whether Trump would leave Ivana to marry Marla Maples. As if anyone gave a rat's A. But there he was, pumping himself into the country's consciousness long before "social media." Lifelong self-promoting ass.
True. The internet just put it on steroids.
What often goes unsaid is that even when Trump and his henchmen are gone, we still have corporate greed and corruption that seeps into both sides of the political aisle. This
must be addressed.