This week on Bulwark on Sunday, Tom Joscelyn joined Bill Kristol to discuss the centrality of conspiracy theories to MAGA and Trumpism, and what that means for the extremism being unconstrained.
As always: Watch, listen, and leave a comment. Bulwark+ Takes is home to short videos, livestreams, and event archives exclusively for Bulwark+ members.
Don’t care for video? Use the controls on the left side of the player to toggle to audio.
Add Bulwark+ Takes feed to your player of choice, here.
Awesome job
YIKES! 😱 Is right.
I thought Alex Jones was shut down and bankrupt from his conspiracy theories surrounding Sandy Hook Elementary shooting. I presume he has been uplifted by the right since he’s such a powerful conspiracy voice. Ugh. 😩
Keep up the pressure. You are really putting meaning to "The Bulwark."
They’re not leaving!
They’re Putin-izing elections!
Homans and Nome, American Sturmabteilung.
Trumpler always an agitator, victim, exaggerator, liar, finger pointer, racist, camera whore.
Now, the fully bloomed version of those seeds; dark-hearted, dead-eyed, sociopathic cartoon villain.
I agree Thomas, social media and internet have broken civilization.
Very frightening times. Unsure how we pull away from this.
Unfolding precisely as forecast in the 90’s by Carl Sagan.
Read “Demon Haunted World”
And here we are…
Does Thomas have a page or site where we can follow him?
Great discussion and damn it they used everything on the internet as talking points for the election and won! I notice it constantly that all of these conspiracy theories have taken the minds of those I argue with every day on FB. It is infuriating that they don't see it or believe anything you put right in their face!
Btw as a European who has lived in America, I think the Vance comments are especially disturbing to us here because we have generational trauma of being obliterated by a tyrant (aka Hitler) who said similar things to Vance. And we see the scars of that on our morning walks to work on our historical buildings where pieces are missing to this day. And while all you lovely people here likely understand the outrage many Europeans feel over the trump admin’s actions towards them, I do wanna say that… unless you grow up in a country that does not have the Spartan military power of America, it’s difficult to explain how scared it makes you feel when they leave you high and dry. Not even due to worst case scenario thinking, it’s just a feeling of terror that’s hard to explain. When I lived in America I was scared of many things. Gun violence etc. But I wasn’t scared of being attacked by another country. The vulnerability many Europeans feel right now, partly bc many of our family members lived through what it was like when an insane person decided he would just… take everything from us. Just wanted to chime in and say that bc I do think the aggressive tone of many Europeans come from intense fear, not necessarily hatred of America
Thank you for reminding us of your well-deserved fears.
I began calling him “Trumpler” in January 2016; it was clear we were potentially heading here.
And we’re here. Frightening.
Thanks for the kind response! We all deserve better, and I know all of us Europeans will be right there to celebrate with you all once this is over, whenever that is
13:00 minutes in I've stopped to write my theory: I think what happened to Vance (and I think this because I think he is a pretty intelligent guy) is that because he figured out the the belief in craziness was so pervasive, and that it likely was increasing, he came to the conclusion that the American populace was actually not capable of making the kinds of rational decisions needed to participate in a democracy. It turned him into one of these folks who believe in dictatorship a la Peter Thiel: the people who are intelligent and knowledgeable should be the ones making decisions. After that leap of political philosophy, it is easy to see that people's propensity to believe conspiracy theories can be used to manipulate them, therefore can be used to get yourself put in power. Trump is a weirdo-mentally-unstable-chaos-machine. People think, oh it's a cult of personality and once Trump is gone, MAGA will crumble, but I don't think so. Vance is smart, capable, manipulative, and brutal, and I think he is way more dangerous to our democracy than Trump.
Agree that Vance is dangerous, but I still think he doesn’t have the charisma that Trump has, and therefore will never get the votes or the following that Trump has. During the campaign, almost no one came to Vance’s public events, whereas Trump had big crowds watching him do nothing on stage for 30 to 40 minutes but sway-dance. Trump rallies were almost giant social events, parties. Vance events are boring. Unless people are forced to sit in an auditorium and listen to him (Munich Security Conference) they won’t do it. Look what happened in Greenland. Admittedly the locals hate him and Usha, but look at the photo of him eating lunch with the US soldiers on the military base he visited. They look like hostages, like prisoners, terrified that they have been forced to sit at the same table with this guy. When Trump is gone, Vance is done for. He will have sold his soul for nothing.
Interesting thoughts. I hope you both are right.
I agree. Vance might be more dangerous IF he had Trump's massive cult of personality, but he does not and never will. He is not charismatic, popular, or likable. The MAGAs won't storm the Capital for him. If it were Vance doing all the same destructive things Trump is doing now, even if he kept saying "this is what Trump wanted," MAGA would turn on him far more quickly once it started affecting their lives and livelihoods.
Trump is a singular figure with his cult and can't be easily replaced. More likely they won't be able to replace him at all and MAGA will break down into squabbling factions once he is gone.
I too have been thinking of what happens when Trump is gone from the scene. I lean towards your thoughts, Sami. A big part of Trump's power/appeal is his showmanship and entertainment ability. I don't think there's anyone else in MAGALand that has that capability on Trump's level and so there could well be some fragmenting of "Trumpism" once the God King is gone (and on his way to Hades, I hope).
Please have Tom Joscelyn on often...
Agreed. Really compelling. Would like to ask Tom what if anything breaks the hold of these conspiracies?
January 6th will be remembered as our Beerhall Putsch. A direct threat to democracy led by a traitorous president that went unpunished. I always thought that Biden was our Hindenburg, an old chivalrous man, who was completely out of touch with this new reality. Trump and his comrades should have been subjected to a public trial. What's particularly poisonous is the way this movement has sacralized itself into a form of millennialism that we'll all live to regret.
Biden as Hindenburg is perceptive.
Yes, what a sad predictive metaphor that turned out to be.
lol oh gosh I didn't even think of that!
Boy, what an eye-opener. As some others have stated, this should be required viewing.
On that note, I find myself frustrated that such excellent analysis no doubt escapes those who really need to hear it, namely, Trump supporters, Republican members of Congress, etc. I especially wish that the latter would be directly confronted with these facts by their Democratic colleagues and the press.
Thank you for a Debbie Downer podcast that needs to be heard by everyone. I really appreciated the commentary to connect the dots on conspiracies . These people are nuts but very scary. Great podcast.
Trump spent his whole life trying to make news in the tabloids. So it’s no surprise to me that he saw the power and influence of the big tabloid papers, which of course dealt primarily in disinformation and conspiracy long before the internet.
Someone close to me had a (good, positive) story published about them in National Enquirer in the 90s. That was the first time I really paid attention to the supermarket tabloids and I was stunned to learn that the National Enquirer was one of the top most read papers in the country (I think they ranked third?).
So the widespread appeal of disinformation and conspiracy started long before Trump. As a creature of the tabloids, he probably understood this long before most everyone else around him and was able to capitalize on it.
Yes, Trump was a regular in the tabloids. I remember endless "stories" on whether Trump would leave Ivana to marry Marla Maples. As if anyone gave a rat's A. But there he was, pumping himself into the country's consciousness long before "social media." Lifelong self-promoting ass.
True. The internet just put it on steroids.
What often goes unsaid is that even when Trump and his henchmen are gone, we still have corporate greed and corruption that seeps into both sides of the political aisle. This
must be addressed.
Informative deep dive into the sordid world of the loons, goons, ghouls, and zombies that run America. They are stomach-turning. So now we need part 2 from this duo on how do we get these maga loons OUT.
Forewarned is forearmed.
I believe that Trump is either a conspiracy theorists himself, or because he is so manipulative he will use anything that works. Power is all he ever wanted and he will use anything to get it. Power is his only compass. I hope that all of the bad karma he has built up through out his rotten life kicks in soon, otherwise we are toast.
That's right. And now with the pain he's been able to inflict globally, I'm convinced he experienced power on a scale beyond anything he's ever known. Including getting elected president- twice. He has taken the world hostage, and I have no doubt he feels this makes him the one true ruler of nations. Relishing in the intoxicating feeling of exercising near supreme global power.
YIKES!
Another great discussion. The Bulwark is essential reading and listening. Really appreciate the daily content. But like Sam, Bill is a mumbly low talker. Please get him a new mic and then turn it up. Thanks.
Yes! Bill, for the sake of all that's holy, speak up. Slow down. And for the love god, turn up your mic. PLEASE!
It’s too hard to get someone to speak up who is set in their ways. But they can buy him a clip on mic that is a lot more sensitive. He sounds like he’s at the bottom of a well.
I’ll second that. Even closed caption has trouble translating him at times.
you can tell Bill's a writer... not a orator...
Excellent discussion.
Vaccines are for many not one. It's pure selfishness not
to get the vaccine; you are spreading lethal disease. No religious excuses either. God gave Salk the vaccine!What's crucial is admitting the vaccine is a gift and saves many people.
Because some will desist, a fine or six months in prison
( where they are vaccinated) should set things right.)
It ain't your measles. That virus can readily enter anyone.
You might die but many have already died. Do you part.
Don't be selfish. It's inappropriate.
I have to have one prominent disagreement with a consistent talking point of many of the Never-Trump commentators including some at the Bulwark.
Marco Rubio, JD Vance, Tim Scott, Nikki Haley were never honest brokers they were always craven Machiavellian power hungry people exactly like Donald Trump. There is no functional difference between Marco Rubio & Laura Loomer. Marco Rubio from the beginning of his political career in Florida was always a craven, evil opportunist who just goes with the wind. His actions today are the same mentality he had in 2010 or 2016 or 2022. Just the climate has shifted and like a good lemming he falls right in line.
Same with J.D. Vance. Hillbilly Elegy was a self-aggrandizing load of bs. It was his best carve out at the time to obtain press coverage. The J.D. Vance of today is the same as the J.D. Vance of 2016.
We need to stop pretending that these once were pro-American good faith actors and pay attention to their record and actions. Just as I disagree with the esteemed guest that Fox News once pushed back against the worst conspiracy theories. Birtherism was nonstop across Fox News almost exclusively (Lou Dobbs on CNN also trafficked in it). Hosts like Greta, Hannity, Fox and Friends and so many others gave us nonstop Trump spreading birtherism.
Better to have Laura Loomer than Marco Rubio … she says the quiet part out loud whereas he actually actively breaks down America’s guardrails against authoritarianism.
1000%. All that's changed is that these horrible folks don't have to pretend anymore. In these morally shrunken times, they're what passes for par.
Agree - craven Machiavellian opportunists who will use anything at hand to further their quest for power. Wacky conspiracy theories will work for now, when the tides turn, they will grab onto something else. No difference between truth or falsehoods when power is primary.
Craven is correct.
You missed a big connecting thread... racism. Why did Trump gravitate to the birther conspiracy? Because he is a racist and many of the conspiracies promote racist beliefs.
He did touch on White Replacement Conspiracy Theory a couple times. But it is the main artery of this MAGA Movement not a vein.
my thoughts exactly when the birther thing came up... Trump's a racist who's lucky enough to live in a country where his fellow racists can swing an election
Very interesting. But stupid. A throwback to Laugh-in.
I have a tough time taking these people seriously. It's like someone dumped a nuthouse out.
What is stupid?
Unable to take 3 parts of a sentence and put them together to make sense.
I guess I missed that. I was multitasking while listening.
Great and scary , I know several people who believe most of these crazy conspiracy theories, is there a solution?!
You cited a book by a former Stanford U professor but but I didn’t get her name or the name of the book. Would you please post it. Thank you.
t think the reference is to Renee DiResta's Invisible Rulers: the People who Turn Lies into Reality
It seems that there’s a solid 40% of Americans whose lives were so insanely boring that conspiracies became a form of entertainment to the point of being susceptible to the cult that allows them to feel accepted in this twisted movement. Trump is a conman and an opportunist and found a way to gather these people and become their cult leader.
100% agree with your assessment, but hoping your 40% estimate is high!
I should have said those that vote. The other 8% of voters were either selfish, greedy or racists. Which means apathy is the main problem we have in the Democratic Party. If we have real fair and secure elections going forward we need to find light a fire under the 90k or so that apparently didn’t vote but registered. That was strange, but it is what it is.🤔
I'm not sure how many registered voters didn't vote, but sadly, close to 90 million eligible voters did not bother.
Shavua Tov Bill, chaverim.
Bill, the off hand comment at the end, about the origins of the phrase "Debbie Downer" made me laugh so hard.
I have been fighting with these people online, since 2004. The 9/11 Truthers came from different parts of the Art Bell fan crowds. I think it's the first place that left and right wing conspiracy circles started yo merge.
Left wing conspiracy was a hodge-podge of different pseudo science, "healing crystal" types.
They believed the Reagan and Bush admins wanted to get them.
Right wing folks were the types who blew up the Murrah building in OKC.
We're convinced Waco and Ruby Ridge, and the death of conspiracy theorist William Cooper, were all government "hits".
They believed the Clinton's wanted to get them.
Coast to Coast brought these folks together.
AM radio was also the land of Rush, not the Canadian prog group.
Alex Jones, post 9/11, turned this merge into big business.
I hate most of these people.
They are arrogant, and unwise, and when you refute anything they say with facts, they just dismiss the facts as propaganda, or dismiss you as a "government shill".
To me, I feel like a see a direct line from C2C fans, to MAGA. Heck, alot of them are the literally the same people.
I think it's interesting that as Elon's star seems to be descending a bit, Laura Loomer shows up again. They were notoriously fighting on X a few months ago.
There’s a saying that “If you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything”. That seems to be the case with Vance and, I would add, Marco Rubio. (There are no doubt others, but those two have a history of states positions contrary to the ones that they now espouse.)